Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > Coral Forums > SPS Keepers
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 08/05/2017, 12:27 AM   #1
Shark.Bait
Registered Member
 
Shark.Bait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 227
100% Aquaculture, Bare Bones SPS Lagoon

Hello all, I recently moved for school and of course had to set up a nano tank while I'm out here. This time around I decided to do a bit of an experiment instead of your standard build.

1. Everything in the tank will be aquacultured. Rock, fish and coral will all come from aquaculture sources.
2. I also plan to be away from the tank for some time, so water changes won't be possible. I'm going no skimmer, no water changes, no fuge, no gfo, only dosing and carbon.
3. I'm going to be dosing bleach

For better or for worse, I think it will be an interesting approach and hopefully you can follow my progress!

Equipment list so far:
Nuvo Fusion 25 gallon Lagoon and stand
160 watt Maxspect Razor
Coral Box wifi dosing pump and container
Smart ATO
ESV salt, part 1 and 2, strontium choride and potassium iodide, and T.E. plus
Bleach!

Pics to come


Shark.Bait is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/05/2017, 12:33 AM   #2
Shark.Bait
Registered Member
 
Shark.Bait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 227


Supplies have arrived!



After about 3 hours of assembling the stand.



For no water changes, I overdid it on the ESV by a little. I should have enough for.... forever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


__________________
IG: Shark_Bait_Reef
Shark.Bait is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/05/2017, 07:19 AM   #3
Radioheadx14
Registered Member
 
Radioheadx14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,569
What does bleach do?


Radioheadx14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/05/2017, 04:31 PM   #4
WatDatThing
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 688
Nice tank. I always like the look of the rimless tank.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


WatDatThing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/06/2017, 06:29 PM   #5
Vinny Kreyling
Registered Member
 
Vinny Kreyling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Miller Place, NY
Posts: 4,809
Believe it or not--
Bob Stark is using bleach in his reef tank.
Small doses in dated increments.
&--everything is still alive!


__________________
250 gallon mixed reef, Vertex Illumina LED, RD 3 Speedy 80 Watt, DAS EX-3 Skimmer, MTC mini cal, 2-3/4" Sea Swirls, Aquacontroller & 4 Tunze pumps.
Vinny Kreyling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/06/2017, 07:03 PM   #6
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,701
Sodium hypochlorite releases the active hypochlorine OCl- which is very reactive. It would basically react with and kill any microorganism it encounters but in small doses shouldn't kill the tank. It's a disinfectant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/06/2017, 09:59 PM   #7
Shark.Bait
Registered Member
 
Shark.Bait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 227
As Karim and Vinny have mentioned, I am not the first one to try this and the bleach kills microorganisms. The idea is that it diminishes the count of bacteria in the water column but doesn't kill them all. The theory is it preferentially kills gram negative bacteria which pretty much makes up most of the coral pathogenic types.

In short, it should help clear detritus slightly and prevent bacteria that are involved with RTN. Bob Stark has proven this concept with his mixed reef, I'd like to apply it to a SPS focused tank and see what happens.


Shark.Bait is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/07/2017, 06:56 AM   #8
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,701
Please post in the chemistry forum? I'd love to get the professional chemists' opinions.

I've dosed peroxide but without much measurable benefit. I felt it was safer due to its short half life and the fact that it breaks down into water and oxygen.

The theory that bleach focuses in on gram negative pathogens is interesting. Some of the chemists have exceptional testing skills and might be able to provide some actual video.

Apparently, our own bodies create hypochlorite to kill bacteria ... wow:
https://www.google.com.mx/amp/s/amp....-bacteria.html


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/07/2017, 07:05 AM   #9
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,701
Interesting comparison of disinfectants:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...5/#!po=31.2500

Citric acid anyone?


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/07/2017, 12:08 PM   #10
Shark.Bait
Registered Member
 
Shark.Bait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Please post in the chemistry forum? I'd love to get the professional chemists' opinions.

I've dosed peroxide but without much measurable benefit. I felt it was safer due to its short half life and the fact that it breaks down into water and oxygen.

The theory that bleach focuses in on gram negative pathogens is interesting. Some of the chemists have exceptional testing skills and might be able to provide some actual video.

Apparently, our own bodies create hypochlorite to kill bacteria ... wow:
https://www.google.com.mx/amp/s/amp....-bacteria.html
Hm, seems to denature the protein, similar to heat. I am by no means a professional chemist but I will relay some information provided by Bob Stark later today in the chemistry section.


__________________
IG: Shark_Bait_Reef
Shark.Bait is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/08/2017, 08:56 AM   #11
jda
Dogmatic Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 5,936
I have no doubt that the bleach will do all of those things that a chemist says that it will do. However, how can any of those things provide benefit? Hydrocarbons can do the same thing. Should I be dosing motor oil into my tank in small enough doses? I will be on the lookout for a thread in the chemistry forum, but this sounds a lot like a solution to problems that don't exist. Since when do healthy coral have pathogen issues? ...or too many waterborne bacteria in an oligotrophic environment? It seems that with organic carbon dosing that those pathogens and waterborne bacteria are the first to grow with the increased carbon source, so what studies are out there to say that the organic carbon from the now-dead pathogens and waterborne bacteria killed by the bleach will not just grow more of the same?

Here is some real science that might help. Detritus is not your enemy - it just needs to be exported at some time so that it does not clog up the rocks and sand, but there is no real hurry as long as it is systematic and actually happens. Urine contains nearly all of the phosphates and organics and gives a near-immediate impact into the water column. Dr Holmes Farley studied this for his real job as well as in a reef and has some outstanding posts and papers.

If you are not going to be around very much, you might want to consider just doing this as simple as possible.

BTW - that ESV is going to last a few weeks once the stuff gets growing.


jda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/08/2017, 01:30 PM   #12
murphreef
Registered Member
 
murphreef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: simi valley
Posts: 2,841
Nice lil set up I have the same tank right now and it's just enough to allow me to enjoy the hobby without going over board like I did on my previous tanks lol.

I like how you say you have enough 2 part to last you "forever" haha I was thinking the same thing when I seen your pic!

Enjoy


__________________
Justin

Current Tank Info: 25G cube (finally back in the hobby in a small way)
murphreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/08/2017, 01:51 PM   #13
reefmutt
Registered Member
 
reefmutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Mtl. Canada
Posts: 7,270
Curious. Following.
But yes a good question jda asks: if corals are healthy, why do you need to kill gram- bacteria?
I guess it'll oxidize organics, thus reducing the need for the skimmer and or carbon??


__________________
Matt.

Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 4x AI prime 6xt5 3x150w mh. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer
reefmutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/08/2017, 01:56 PM   #14
jda
Dogmatic Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 5,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefmutt View Post
I guess it'll oxidize organics, thus reducing the need for the skimmer and or carbon??
If not exported, then it will grow more of the same. Nothing gained.


jda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/08/2017, 02:25 PM   #15
reefmutt
Registered Member
 
reefmutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Mtl. Canada
Posts: 7,270
But how does ozone work? I really don't know.. doesn't it also oxidize compounds?
Do the byproducts from ozone need to be removed? Any similarities between how they work? I'm really no chemist.


__________________
Matt.

Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 4x AI prime 6xt5 3x150w mh. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer
reefmutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/08/2017, 03:59 PM   #16
jda
Dogmatic Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 5,936
Some of the same perceived benefits with ozone and H2O2, but mostly live stuff in the water column getting dealt with... In the end, folks where just chasing higher ORP and thought that it mattered. There are very few that can even tell a difference if they use it, or not, and there are a series of very deep and thoughtful articles by Dr. Holmes-Farley about ORP and Ozone that kinda show you why it is not only not all that necessary, but the benefits are probably more perception than reality. The main actual benefit is a bit clearer water, but activated carbon can do this. The main no-so-real benefit is lower nitrates, but since nothing is exported, the now-dead stuff just enters the N cycle and gets consumed by something else or stays as more N for a net push.


jda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/10/2017, 09:47 PM   #17
Shark.Bait
Registered Member
 
Shark.Bait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 227
Very good points from all! Let's discuss here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...2#post25176422

As far as the tank goes, heater and some other odds and ends have been delivered. Still waiting for the sand and lights which should arrive Monday!


__________________
IG: Shark_Bait_Reef
Shark.Bait is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/12/2017, 10:51 AM   #18
danreefman
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: northern california
Posts: 414
I like how you stick to your plan. Don't listen to all the chatter. Everytime I listen to people about tank or my business. I head towards failure. Do your thing bro. I'll be following. Nice stand by the way.


danreefman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/12/2017, 10:59 AM   #19
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,701
new and controversial ideas are easy to break down.

sometimes, through experimentation, we learn things that are non-intuitive and informs completely different avenues of understanding.

I'm personally not going to add bleach - I feel that everything should have a natural basis on real reefs. UV rays and ozone are the primary "disinfectants" in nature - so I'm going to stick with those for now

but I'm very excited to learn through your experimentation.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/12/2017, 06:47 PM   #20
Cheapreef
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Posts: 823
So your going SPS with no Skimmer, algae scrubber/reactor or any other form of nutrient export other than live rock? And no water changes to boot?
Good luck with that, like to see how it works out in a Nano. I run a Nano 25 gal acutal water volume and can say there is no way I wouldn't run a skimmer and do at min biweekly WC's.


Cheapreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/12/2017, 07:46 PM   #21
reefmutt
Registered Member
 
reefmutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Mtl. Canada
Posts: 7,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark.Bait View Post
As Karim and Vinny have mentioned, I am not the first one to try this and the bleach kills microorganisms. The idea is that it diminishes the count of bacteria in the water column but doesn't kill them all. The theory is it preferentially kills gram negative bacteria which pretty much makes up most of the coral pathogenic types.

In short, it should help clear detritus slightly and prevent bacteria that are involved with RTN. Bob Stark has proven this concept with his mixed reef, I'd like to apply it to a SPS focused tank and see what happens.
Hey Shark bait. The sharks are circling!
Don't get scared away.
I am honestly curious to see how your system does.
Please keep us posted.


__________________
Matt.

Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 4x AI prime 6xt5 3x150w mh. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer
reefmutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/12/2017, 10:24 PM   #22
jda
Dogmatic Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 5,936
I know that you said for better of for worse on dosing the bleach, but now that you found out (in your chemistry thread) that it has very little chance of killing the pathogens like you were thinking and that a skimmer might not be able to remove the organic chlorides that you are creating and they could cause a lot of harm, are you going to dose it anyway? Just curious.

I have seen some successful reefs without forms of nutrient export. The aragonite ends up picking up the slack by binding phosphates until they get full (which can take a year or two). As long as you have a plan for replacing the aragonite or running a lot of GFO, it can work. Nitrate should be no problem if you have enough rock of sand.


jda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2017, 03:00 PM   #23
Shark.Bait
Registered Member
 
Shark.Bait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
new and controversial ideas are easy to break down.

sometimes, through experimentation, we learn things that are non-intuitive and informs completely different avenues of understanding.

I'm personally not going to add bleach - I feel that everything should have a natural basis on real reefs. UV rays and ozone are the primary "disinfectants" in nature - so I'm going to stick with those for now

but I'm very excited to learn through your experimentation.


Exactly Karim, there's many instances of people scoffing at techniques which later become common place. I'm NOT saying that's the case with bleach, but I've seen success and I'd like to try for myself. I know you've received some of that at your own presentations

I wouldn't bleach my 265g reef! But for me, it'll be some fun to try this on a small scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danreefman View Post
I like how you stick to your plan. Don't listen to all the chatter. Everytime I listen to people about tank or my business. I head towards failure. Do your thing bro. I'll be following. Nice stand by the way.


Thank you. There's no problem with people stating their opinion, I look forward to the discussion!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


__________________
IG: Shark_Bait_Reef
Shark.Bait is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2017, 03:16 PM   #24
Shark.Bait
Registered Member
 
Shark.Bait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
I know that you said for better of for worse on dosing the bleach, but now that you found out (in your chemistry thread) that it has very little chance of killing the pathogens like you were thinking and that a skimmer might not be able to remove the organic chlorides that you are creating and they could cause a lot of harm, are you going to dose it anyway? Just curious.

I have seen some successful reefs without forms of nutrient export. The aragonite ends up picking up the slack by binding phosphates until they get full (which can take a year or two). As long as you have a plan for replacing the aragonite or running a lot of GFO, it can work. Nitrate should be no problem if you have enough rock of sand.


I don't agree that there's very little chance of bleach oxidizing bacteria in the water. The picture of the bacteria test show a significant difference in waterborne bacteria. It's only one test, but there's many studies available that support this.

The chlorine content added is about .1ppm, with the lowest you'll find in tap water being around .2ppm. So at the moment no, I am not worried about it. However, there are always unknowns, we will see!

There is aragonite, but most of the phosphate/ nitrate control is going to be done through carbon dosing. I really don't want to use GFO but I will if I have to.

Karim's reef is a good example of one with "no" nutrient export, depending on what your definition is.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


__________________
IG: Shark_Bait_Reef
Shark.Bait is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2017, 03:23 PM   #25
jda
Dogmatic Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 5,936
How will you be exporting nutrients with carbon dosing with no skimmer? The stuff that you are growing with the carbon will just stay in the tank and be part of the N cycle, again.

You don't believe the chemistry that your bleach will turn into organic chloramines and that organic chloramines don't kill the stuff that you want to kill?

Your test is likely missing the organics that will be there in the water, thus no conversion to organic chloramines.


jda is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:33 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014