Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 10/31/2017, 10:57 PM   #1
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
achilles tang and cupramine treatment ?

I need some help

my achilles tang has come down with ich
he is currently in hyposalinity for about 8 days. Was working for the first 3 days then it got bad and it seems that i have the strain that wont die to hyposalinity.

The last 3 achilles i tried to treat with cupramine didnt make it.
This one is still eating and moving around.
Anyone successfully treat with cupramine ?

thanks


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/31/2017, 11:26 PM   #2
lagatbezan
Registered Member
 
lagatbezan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 867
Unfortunately I don't have any personal experience but I know they tend to be on the delicate side so maybe best route might be to do tank transfer or cp if you can get a vet to write you a prescription for it.
When doing hypo did you use a refractometer that was correctly calibrated? Also you need to be make sure to keep the sg locked and stable at 1.009. If it creeps up even a little bit due to evaporation it will not be successful.
Also are you sure you are dealing with ich and not velvet?


__________________
300g with velocity t4 for return and a Reflo dart on a closed loop, T5 lights & SRO3000 skimmer.

Current Tank Info: 300g

Last edited by lagatbezan; 10/31/2017 at 11:43 PM.
lagatbezan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 04:00 AM   #3
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
It's definitely ich.
My refracrometer is calibrated and the sg is 1.008 to 1.009
What is cp?

I was thinking to abort hypo and try cupramine again but very slow and only .35 cu. Pretty nervous


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 04:45 AM   #4
homer1475
Registered Member
 
homer1475's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,891
If you killed 3 tangs with cupramine, why on earth would you be considering again?

Hypo works as long as you hold the salinity steady, one point either direction can throw things off and not work worth a jack.

TTM or tank transfer method is super easy, and guaranteed to get rid of the ich on the fish without stressing the heck out of it. Only requires 2 tanks, and 2 pieces of equipment for each tank(which in reality is 2 airstones, or several(they are cheap so I throw them away after use), 2 heaters, and several pieces of PVC pipe and elbows for the fish to hide in).


__________________
80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256

Biocube Build Thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2499945

Nothing in this hobby happens fast!
homer1475 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 07:38 AM   #5
SAT
Premium Member
 
SAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Berwyn, PA
Posts: 3,895
Agree with using TTM. You can safely combine that with hyposalinity.

Copper is more toxic in freshwater so generally a bad idea in hyposalinity.


__________________
Stuart

Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.
SAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 07:59 AM   #6
d-man
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: San Diego, ca
Posts: 2,435
I've used coppersafe on Achilles with no issues at all


d-man is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 09:39 AM   #7
Uncle99
Registered Member
 
Uncle99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 109
I have used both lower salinity (1.009) and cupramine (but at half the recommended dose) at the same time.....ich gone in 4-5 days.
If you go the low salinity way.....bring them down at 5 ppt per day til ya reach 1.009 and up real slow by .002 per day....going up is stressful while down not so bad.


Uncle99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 10:00 AM   #8
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
 
Dmorty217's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vandalia OHIO
Posts: 10,382
Since the Achilles is already in hypo I would suggest Chloroquine phosphate. Noga suggests this in his book and I have used it with success several times. I agree if you have lost several Achilles before in cupramine, I would avoid it at all costs. TTM is also a option but not always successful due to the new tanks being sterile with no bacteria populations and it's typically done in small tanks/containers and temps can be hit or miss with a typical 100-150w heater in a small tank/container. I have done TTM with success on a Achilles tang but I have also lost several fish in TTM.


__________________
Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs

Current Tank Info: 625g, 200g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 2 MP60s
Dmorty217 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 10:02 AM   #9
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
 
Dmorty217's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vandalia OHIO
Posts: 10,382
Also you can drop salinity from 1.024 to 1.009 in one day without negative effects on the fish. Raising the salinity back up is what needs to be done slowly over several days.


__________________
Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs

Current Tank Info: 625g, 200g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 2 MP60s
Dmorty217 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 12:20 PM   #10
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
the last few achilles that died in qt were in rough shape and were not eating for a week. I really dont have any more room for another tank for tank transfer. Can you actually use cupramine in hypo ? @ Uncle99 ?
Thanks for all the info guys.... i hope i can keep this fish as he is hard to get now in Vancouver BC


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 12:21 PM   #11
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
I might try getting this Chloroquine phosphate..


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 12:27 PM   #12
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
will the fish eat food soaked in Chloroquine phosphate ?
i been reading that it makes the food taste pretty bad.


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 12:32 PM   #13
lagatbezan
Registered Member
 
lagatbezan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 867
Copper itself is poison which kills the parasites before killing the fish, usually or at least thats the idea and personally I hate using it and have had nothing but poor results using it.
from what I read, if you are going to use it, coppersafe seems to be better then using cupramine since it has a slightly better effective range. make sure you dont EVER use prime or any ammonia blockers or conditioners with copper.
The best type of treatment of choice seems to be cp (Chloroquine phosphate). you will need a vet to give you a prescription and you can buy it online from diamondbackdrugs. It needs to be in pure 99% form to be 100% effective which is why its important to get it from reputable places like diamondback.
you use 40mg to 80mg per gallon and dose it ONLY once for 30 days. (only add and adjust for any water changes). This will treat ich, velvet and uronema.


__________________
300g with velocity t4 for return and a Reflo dart on a closed loop, T5 lights & SRO3000 skimmer.

Current Tank Info: 300g
lagatbezan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 12:36 PM   #14
lagatbezan
Registered Member
 
lagatbezan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniumauto View Post
the last few achilles that died in qt were in rough shape and were not eating for a week. I really dont have any more room for another tank for tank transfer. Can you actually use cupramine in hypo ? @ Uncle99 ?
Thanks for all the info guys.... i hope i can keep this fish as he is hard to get now in Vancouver BC
I would not run hypo and copper at the same time.

Feeding CP will not be effective when added to the food. It will need to be run in the water column.


__________________
300g with velocity t4 for return and a Reflo dart on a closed loop, T5 lights & SRO3000 skimmer.

Current Tank Info: 300g
lagatbezan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 12:43 PM   #15
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
ok i will try to get cp today ... if i cant get it ... then i will try a light light dose of cupramine very very slow... should i continue to hypo or should i abort ?


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 12:58 PM   #16
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
 
Dmorty217's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vandalia OHIO
Posts: 10,382
If doing cupramine you have to take the tank out of hypo


__________________
Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs

Current Tank Info: 625g, 200g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 2 MP60s
Dmorty217 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 02:13 PM   #17
lagatbezan
Registered Member
 
lagatbezan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniumauto View Post
ok i will try to get cp today ... if i cant get it ... then i will try a light light dose of cupramine very very slow... should i continue to hypo or should i abort ?
Its generally not a good idea to mix medications so I would either use cp or copper and not mix them. Same with hypo and copper or cp. I think the lowest SG you want to use for cp is 1.015.


__________________
300g with velocity t4 for return and a Reflo dart on a closed loop, T5 lights & SRO3000 skimmer.

Current Tank Info: 300g
lagatbezan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 04:13 PM   #18
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
 
Dmorty217's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vandalia OHIO
Posts: 10,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagatbezan View Post
Its generally not a good idea to mix medications so I would either use cp or copper and not mix them. Same with hypo and copper or cp. I think the lowest SG you want to use for cp is 1.015.
Don't mix copper and CP. Noga, who is the most versed person in this hobby as far as disease treatment goes recommends hypo and CP. i own the book that sites this. I have done this with many tangs and angels and it works without harm.


__________________
Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs

Current Tank Info: 625g, 200g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 2 MP60s
Dmorty217 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 09:13 PM   #19
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
ok so i got a hold of my vet she wrote me a prescription for cp. i just have to go find it.. i will try hypo and cp together ... the achilles is still strong and eating while covered in ich ..... so i think i still have a chance to beat the ich. i will keep you guys posted on my progress


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/01/2017, 09:39 PM   #20
ali1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 885
Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniumauto View Post
I need some help

my achilles tang has come down with ich
he is currently in hyposalinity for about 8 days. Was working for the first 3 days then it got bad and it seems that i have the strain that wont die to hyposalinity.

The last 3 achilles i tried to treat with cupramine didnt make it.
This one is still eating and moving around.
Anyone successfully treat with cupramine ?

thanks
This is the 4th achilles tang? When will you stop?


__________________
Originally Posted by Gogandantess

"I'm totally frustrated by this disease. My display has been fallow for 2 months now. If ich happened to mysteriously appear again, I'm giving up and going back to African Cichilds."
ali1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/02/2017, 02:21 AM   #21
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
this would be the last .. no choice we dont get hawaii fish here anymore

ich is a pain and it only happened to me in the last 2 years.
I wouldnt give up until i get it figured out.


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/02/2017, 07:56 AM   #22
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
 
Dmorty217's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vandalia OHIO
Posts: 10,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniumauto View Post
ok so i got a hold of my vet she wrote me a prescription for cp. i just have to go find it.. i will try hypo and cp together ... the achilles is still strong and eating while covered in ich ..... so i think i still have a chance to beat the ich. i will keep you guys posted on my progress
Diamonbackdrugs.com is where you want to get the CP from. The check every batch they receive for purity and if it's less than 99% pure they send it back to the manufacturer.


__________________
Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs

Current Tank Info: 625g, 200g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 2 MP60s
Dmorty217 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11/02/2017, 12:26 PM   #23
titaniumauto
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
im out in vancouver bc ... so gonna have to call around here ....

here is an update

2 days ago i decided i was going to abort hypo and started to change the water and brought it up to 1.010 decided not to buffer the water with baking soda as the ph was sitting around 8.1 already.. alk was very low sitting somewhere around 70ppm or 3.9dkh

then yesterday after work i though well strange that the tank ph remained at 8 without buffer?... ok fine so i left it knowing that the alk was still very low... but i noticed that the achilles was looking better... i thought maybe im just seeing things and the spots will come back later in the evening like it always does...

did my daily water change at 1030 pm with salinity 1.008 with no buffer (baking soda)... around 2am before after i finish scrubbing my 170 gallon tank... decided to take a look at the achilles tang and saw that there was less spots and he has more color....

this morning as i was making my coffee decided to take alook at the tanks... achilles has only 5 spots... i can actually count the spots which is a good thing ... see all the ich cyst on the bottom as usual.... but he looks 85 percent better...

so here is a question before i go out and get cp... is marine ich affected by low low alk ? cuz i decided to stop adding baking soda to buffer ph and alk and he started to get better... when i buffered he got worse ...

i know if my alk is low in previous tanks that my snails and shrimp would die.. i wonder if this goes for MI too...


titaniumauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/02/2017, 01:04 PM   #24
lagatbezan
Registered Member
 
lagatbezan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniumauto View Post

this morning as i was making my coffee decided to take alook at the tanks... achilles has only 5 spots... i can actually count the spots which is a good thing ... see all the ich cyst on the bottom as usual.... but he looks 85 percent better...

so here is a question before i go out and get cp... is marine ich affected by low low alk ? cuz i decided to stop adding baking soda to buffer ph and alk and he started to get better... when i buffered he got worse ...

i know if my alk is low in previous tanks that my snails and shrimp would die.. i wonder if this goes for MI too...
The white spots that you usually see on the fish are not the actual ich itself but the exit wounds from where it fell off the the fish. The itch parasite itself is invisible to the naked eye so what you are seeing at the bottom of the tank can't be ich.
ich usually has that cycle where the fish looks better for a few days before getting worst because they are falling off. Its usually at this stage where they multiply and reinfect the fish. Also is a possibility that the fish's immune system is kicking in, not showing as bad of a reaction to the ich (white spots) but never the less still infected specially in the gills where it can effect their breathing.


__________________
300g with velocity t4 for return and a Reflo dart on a closed loop, T5 lights & SRO3000 skimmer.

Current Tank Info: 300g
lagatbezan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/02/2017, 02:34 PM   #25
SAT
Premium Member
 
SAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Berwyn, PA
Posts: 3,895
To be clear, the trick is to prevent the cysts (tomonts) which have fallen off the fish from hatching and then reinfecting the fish. This can be done several different ways. Hyposalinity can prevent the cysts from hatching... providing the salinity is low enough and you don't have a tolerant strain. Copper will kill the parasites (tomites) when they hatch. CP presumably does the same without subjecting the fish to heavy metal poisoning. TTM moves the fish away from the tomonts before they can hatch.

You cannot tell visually whether all the parasites have fallen off the fish and it is normal for the fish to look better quite a while before all the parasites are off. They can remain on the fish for as long as 12 days, so that's the minimum treatment time. That minimum presumes you immediately remove the fish from that environment after treatment is concluded, so the cysts remaining in the tank cannot reinfect. The tank remains contaminated until either you sterilize it or 2-3 months have past.


__________________
Stuart

Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.
SAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:36 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014