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Old 11/07/2017, 10:36 AM   #26
Subsea
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Originally Posted by Twinfallz View Post
Yes, I understand what coral feed on. My point is that at one time at least, people had difficulties keeping NPS corals because they needed regular feeding & polution was an issue. I'm just considering NPS utility as a filter feeder when extra food will have to be added to the aquarium?

For me, NPS are not for utility filtration. They are for “beauty”.

NPS require specific live food. The whole point to natural filtration is to recycle nutrients and feed live food. It sounds compatiable to me.

Many successful NPS keepers drip photo and roitefers, then strip nutrients from water with powerful protein skimmers. To each his own. Beauty is to the eyes of the beholder.


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Old 11/07/2017, 10:48 AM   #27
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I am not operating an SPS tank. I do not consider de-nitrification relevant to my reefkeeping methods. It happens and that is fine, but I do not use it as a primary nutrient export method. I don’t encourage nitrogen gas export because I can not sell nitrogen gas, but I can sell corals and frags as a nutrient export method.
I believe you completely misunderstood my post. It was not directed at your method, only correcting misinformation in the post I quoted.

If you would let be a bit argumentative here for a minute, and please read the following as if it was said in a respectful, constructive tone as that is how its meant... Regardless of whether you believe de-nitrification is relevant to your methods, it is present and effects your tank. You can't grow corals efficiently if you can't control nutrients, which I know you know and I am stating the obvious. It doesn't matter if your tank is sps or not, that comment was only to show there are lots of people using sintered glass media as primary de-nitrification in sps tanks, which are of course the most demanding on nutrient control. Again, this is to correct what I believe was misinformation in the post I originally quoted by a different poster. Please also note I'm saying control, not elimination, not reduction, only control. I'm sure you have a target range where your tank and corals grow best, whether you specify that target and test for it or not, your nutrient balance needs to remain within the range for optimum health, not too high and certainly not too low. Therefore all methods that are going on in your tank are "relevant", some more so then others. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you removed all your live rock/sand. I know for a fact your nutrient balance would change. Not saying I know how, or that you SHOULD try it, but it would change. Maybe your corals would suck up more and grow like crazy, maybe ammonia or nitrates would get out of control and crash your tank, maybe something entirely different would happen. Regardless, your balance would look differently then it does today.

You said you don't consider live rock a necessary component of reef tank filtration, and I agree. There are many ways to filter a reef tank. You need to successfully remove ammonia and ammonia byproducts. The fact that many people choose to use live rock or equivalent media (sintered glass/other high surface area media) and de-nitrifying bacteria only makes it one of the more popular, not essential.

By the way, sorry for the wordy post, I applaud your method and hope it continues to work. I find it really interesting. The intent of my previous and current post is not to argue against your method at all, only hoping to add to the conversation.


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Old 11/07/2017, 10:54 AM   #28
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For me, NPS are not for utility filtration. They are for “beauty”.

NPS require specific live food. The whole point to natural filtration is to recycle nutrients and feed live food. It sounds compatiable to me.

Many successful NPS keepers drip photo and roitefers, then strip nutrients from water with powerful protein skimmers. To each his own. Beauty is to the eyes of the beholder.
100% agree with the bolded statement.

I don't keep NPS, I keep mostly sps, but I still live by heavy filtration and I'm trying to raise my nutrients by dosing some nitrate and phosphate. It sounds crazy when you say it like you just did... lol. And maybe it is! I have my reasons for doing it this way, I'm hoping my fish load will catch up and I can stop dosing without changing anything else.


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Old 11/07/2017, 12:18 PM   #29
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I believe you completely misunderstood my post. It was not directed at your method, only correcting misinformation in the post I quoted.

If you would let be a bit argumentative here for a minute, and please read the following as if it was said in a respectful, constructive tone as that is how its meant... Regardless of whether you believe de-nitrification is relevant to your methods, it is present and effects your tank. You can't grow corals efficiently if you can't control nutrients, which I know you know and I am stating the obvious. It doesn't matter if your tank is sps or not, that comment was only to show there are lots of people using sintered glass media as primary de-nitrification in sps tanks, which are of course the most demanding on nutrient control. Again, this is to correct what I believe was misinformation in the post I originally quoted by a different poster. Please also note I'm saying control, not elimination, not reduction, only control. I'm sure you have a target range where your tank and corals grow best, whether you specify that target and test for it or not, your nutrient balance needs to remain within the range for optimum health, not too high and certainly not too low. Therefore all methods that are going on in your tank are "relevant", some more so then others. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you removed all your live rock/sand. I know for a fact your nutrient balance would change. Not saying I know how, or that you SHOULD try it, but it would change. Maybe your corals would suck up more and grow like crazy, maybe ammonia or nitrates would get out of control and crash your tank, maybe something entirely different would happen. Regardless, your balance would look differently then it does today.

You said you don't consider live rock a necessary component of reef tank filtration, and I agree. There are many ways to filter a reef tank. You need to successfully remove ammonia and ammonia byproducts. The fact that many people choose to use live rock or equivalent media (sintered glass/other high surface area media) and de-nitrifying bacteria only makes it one of the more popular, not essential.

By the way, sorry for the wordy post, I applaud your method and hope it continues to work. I find it really interesting. The intent of my previous and current post is not to argue against your method at all, only hoping to add to the conversation.

You have eloquently added to the conversation. I agree 100% with what you said.


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Old 11/07/2017, 12:23 PM   #30
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100% agree with the bolded statement.

I don't keep NPS, I keep mostly sps, but I still live by heavy filtration and I'm trying to raise my nutrients by dosing some nitrate and phosphate. It sounds crazy when you say it like you just did... lol. And maybe it is! I have my reasons for doing it this way, I'm hoping my fish load will catch up and I can stop dosing without changing anything else.

Your reasons make perfect sense to me. Just as the Moody Blues said, It is a “Question of Balance”. That is the Art in reefkeeping.


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Old 11/07/2017, 12:35 PM   #31
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Bioballs and marine pure are very different media for one thing. Marine Pure IS capable of doing all three, much more efficiently then live rock. I'm confused why you say it can't when this type of sintered glass media was designed to do just that. Same with siporax.

Calling live rock a weak denitrifier im sure is relative. Can macro algae remove nitrate much faster? Yes, given good conditions and sufficient mass it probably will. But it takes light and a certain amount of care (pruning, flipping if its not properly spinning, etc.) to keep it growing. I can throw several liters of siporax or a few marine pure blocks in my sump and have a really effective de-nitrification process. Evidence of this is abound in the sps forums.

If nitrate was the only excess nutrient in reef tank then denitrification would be all that is necessary to maintain reef tanks. Phosphate is a major nutrient in reef tanks, mostly due to food. Does phosphate resin complete the nutrient filtration team with denitrification for maintaining your tank? All corals need both nitrogen and phosphate to exist. Just like bacteria, snails, sponges and macro needs the same nutrients. Because I have shunned the stricter requirements of SPS, I have the luxury to allow the natural filter to correct. I choose to call that Dynamic Equilibrium.


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Old 11/07/2017, 01:01 PM   #32
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If nitrate was the only excess nutrient in reef tank then denitrification would be all that is necessary to maintain reef tanks. Phosphate is a major nutrient in reef tanks, mostly due to food. Does phosphate resin complete the nutrient filtration team with denitrification for maintaining your tank? All corals need both nitrogen and phosphate to exist. Just like bacteria, snails, sponges and macro needs the same nutrients. Because I have shunned the stricter requirements of SPS, I have the luxury to allow the natural filter to correct. I choose to call that Dynamic Equilibrium.
You are 100% correct. I did not talk about the phosphate side of the equation because it wasn't part of the conversation yet. I actually dose more phosphate right now then nitrate because my tests show 0ppb and some of my corals are pale as a result. I dont use gfo or similar. Phosphate is part of the key to de-nitrification as bacteria also need phosphate like everything else living in our tanks. Without phosphates, the bacteria can't do their job of removing nitrates. If you research dosing nitrates, there are lots of examples of people having problems with high phosphates and 0 nitrates. When they start dosing nitrates, their phosphate drops. In many cases, they were able to take phosphate media offline and maintain low levels once they get nitrate in the system. This is the opposite example of course, as these show the bacteria are nitrate limited. There are examples of phosphate limitation too where people dose phosphates to lower nitrates. They are usually less abundant, but examples are out there.

And it is possible to run a successful, heavily stocked reef with nothing but LR or equivalent and a good protein skimmer. In fact, many do. Maybe not the heavily stocked part for the majority, but those are out there too.

Also, a heavily sps stocked reef is pretty successful at reducing it's own nutrients as well, very much like what your system sounds like. A lot of these tanks run much higher phosphates and nitrates then is generally considered optimal for sps with excellent growth and coloration.


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Old 11/07/2017, 01:27 PM   #33
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Normal ratio of nitrate to phosphate ratio in biomass of macro is 30:1 with some fast growing macros at 60:1.

There are many more complex problems with different biological filters, when you start talking about DOC (dissolved organic carbon). Before we go further unto this discussion, there are probably more exceptions to the rule, but to keep conversation on track, I will generalize. Let us discuss macro and sponges.

Macro pros: absorbs inorganic nutrients from the water column, oxygenates the water during photosynthesis & absorbs carbon dioxide, feeds tanks inhabitants, macros are beautiful

Macro cons:when lights out macro absorbs oxygen and produces carbon dioxide. Macros produce DOC

It takes a library to list all components of DOC. Sponges absorb DOC as food, but which component of DOC is absorbed by cryptic sponges. I don’t know. I do know that GAC is much more effective at removing a broad spectrum of DOC compounds then cryptic sponges.


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Old 11/07/2017, 04:05 PM   #34
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Bioballs and marine pure are very different media for one thing. Marine Pure IS capable of doing all three, much more efficiently then live rock. I'm confused why you say it can't when this type of sintered glass media was designed to do just that. Same with siporax.
Firstly pisanoal, your statement in another post refering to me as posting "misinformation" I find a bit rude among other things.
I didn't deliberately intend to decieve anyone intensionally or otherwise thanks. Perhaps you really meant to use a phrase more like "incorrect information, IMO" instead? I don't know.

Marine pure was not designed to do all three, certainly not equally. It was designed to quickly convert ammonia & nitrite to nitrate. It's ability to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas is limited, at best.

From Marine Pure -
"MarinePure is designed to be a substrate for bio-filtration, specifically to target ammonia and nitrite removal (nitrification) and to minimize nitrates (denitrification).

Minimize is not "targeting", and it's a pretty loose term being somewhat undefined.

I used an 8 inch Block on a 45 gallon tank and it had no effect on nitrate export. Infact, on another tank I ran a Block in, with an algae scrubber (only filtration) the nitrate level dropped from 8ppm to zero after I removed the Block.


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Old 11/07/2017, 04:14 PM   #35
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The reason that I mentioned Sprung and Delbeek reference to nitrification & denitrification happening in close proximity of each other was because it negated the biological need for live rock. I would like to address Martin Moe’s statement about needing a “functioning denitrification device”. Why do I need to remove nitrate from the water as a free nitrogen gas. Why not feed my corals & bacteria with this nutrient source. Remember, nutrient recycling.
Yes, recycling is fine, and your corals can take nutrients, but only if the system is balanced. You can tinker with how many fish you have & how much you feed the tank in comparison to your biomass that takes up the inorganic & organic nutrients. But it's excess nutrients I'm thinking of. In a tank that's not intentionally 'balanced' or otherwise, the excess nutrients need to be exported so they don't build up.

We all recycle nutrients to one degree or another.


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Old 11/07/2017, 04:32 PM   #36
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Yes, recycling is fine, and your corals can take nutrients, but only if the system is balanced. You can tinker with how many fish you have & how much you feed the tank in comparison to your biomass that takes up the inorganic & organic nutrients. But it's excess nutrients I'm thinking of. In a tank that's not intentionally 'balanced' or otherwise, the excess nutrients need to be exported so they don't build up.

We all recycle nutrients to one degree or another.
I am glad we both got on the same page.

I just got (4 hours ago) two more nutrient consumers. A chillie coral and a blue maxima. I did not know clams were so special. It came in its own ice chest from ORA. At less than 2”, it cost $25 per inch. I know some clam farmer needs to buy his daughter a prom dress. I am a big believer in quality. My brothers company slogan was “Quality is not Expensive. It is priceless.” After ten minutes in tank, the yellow tang interrupted the light beam, the clam responded immediately. The chillie looks good to me.

Sorry, unable to post picture.


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Old 11/07/2017, 08:01 PM   #37
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Twinfallz...

Before responding with anything else, let me first apologize for the way my post came across to you, as I believe that is the mist important part of this post. I did not intend to attack your post in anyway.

As I said to the OP,
Please read this with a respectful tone, as that is how it is intended.

Next, one definition of misinformation:
"Misinformation*is false or incorrect information that is spread intentionally or unintentionally (i.e. without realizing it is untrue)."
To your point, the more popular definition seems to be "mis·in·for·ma·tion
false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive." Not that it is always spread intentionally but usually that is the case. So again, my apologies, innaccurate information would have been a better way to describe what I thought about that statement.

"live rock is practicle, because it has the ability to do all three,*unlike bioballs, or Marine Pure for example." From your post, which is, to your earlier point, incorrect information. You are stating here, unless I misunderstood, that marine pure will not reduce nitrates, which in fact it will per marine pure themselves.

"MarinePure is the perfect place for beneficial bacteria to flourish in order to remove harmful fish wastes. It will*
eliminate ammonia and*lower nitrates".

I also believe that you are misusing the quote you provided in your last post from marine pures website. Just because they say minimize not eliminate does not mean its not effective at eliminating nitrate. No it does not target nitrate elimination. It targets the ammonia cycle. It targets being a lr substitute/replacement that is more efficient then lr. They dont say remove nitrate because then they would have a bunch of people who throw a marine pure block in their sump and have it not drop there nitrates to 0 say its not working. If you over feed, have too high a bioload, dont remove detritus, don't have enough biological filtration, your nitrates will be high. So marine pure says their product will minimize them, and it will. Yes minimize is loose. It might mean 1 block will take mine to 0 and 1 block will take yours to 8. You could say the same about any nutrient reduction method. It all depends on the system and implementation method.

To counter your experience, I have used siporax which is very similar to marine pure blocks as primary nitrate removal. Ive also used the maribe pure balls to remove nitrate. Both cases, undetectable. You will find many similar experiences and yes, I'm sure you can find many with similar experiences to yours. What does that mean? More then one factor goes in to whether it is a good fit for your system.

To summarize, I meant no offense, and I'm sorry I caused any. Marine pure is a live rock replacement/upgrade in terms of bio filtration. I'm not pushing marine pure, I dont currently use it, but I have and do use very similar with success. I don't care if people use it or not. To each their own.



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Old 11/07/2017, 08:53 PM   #38
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Martin wrote that book 50 years ago <<<< 1st print 1989, that makes it 28 years ago.

In Sprung & Delbeek Volume 3, “denitrification and nitrification can happen in close proximity of each other <<<< yes, that is why live rock is practicle, because it has the ability to do all three, unlike bioballs, or Marine Pure for example.

I agree about live rock being a poor de-nitrification method <<<< noted

but what does that have to do with this discussion <<<< you have removed your most effective method of inorganic nutrient removal - macro algae fuge, as stated in your OP. I thought my queeries were relevant. Apologies if I have mis-interpreted what you wanted to discuss.

Moe's book is certainly still relevant, and to finish, I'll just quote from his book: - "Denitrification bacteria are also present in the deep crevices and pores of the rock, but assuming the tank contains a fair number of animals, the denitrification capacity of the bacteria in the rock will not take the place of active algae growth and a properly designed and functioning denitrification filter device."

I'll look forward to your updates on sponge & filter feeder progression & effectiveness.
Good luck.
A basketball size of macro in my refugium is not my most efficient inorganic nutrient removal. The large coral biomasses in my tank are my most efficient inorganic nutrients and organic nutrient removers.

Considering Ken Felderman research showing 75% removal of DOC generated by tank inhabitants is consumed by tank inhabitants, I would think that both organic and inorganic nutrients are required to produce DOC. What is consuming organic and inorganic nutrients to produce DOC?

I shall play Sherlock Holmes and say, “It’s elementary my dear Watson”.
The biological filter, including coral, will consume both organic and inorganic nutrients. If excess nutrients, biological filter responds with more algae growth with a corresponding growth in snails and herbivores. Everyone of these components have assimilated organic and inorganic nutrients into their biomass.
That sounds like natural filtration and multiple food webs.


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Old 11/07/2017, 08:58 PM   #39
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Pisanoal,

You are a feisty person. Welcome to the thread. Bring on your information, we can handle it. Iron sharpens iron.


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Old 11/07/2017, 11:02 PM   #40
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Pisanoal,

You are a feisty person. Welcome to the thread. Bring on your information, we can handle it. Iron sharpens iron.
Haha. I'm really trying not to be, and I'm not in person. That's one reason I hate disagreements over text communication. As soon as you disagree with someone it immediately becomes offensive to a lot of people without context and non-verbal cues. But thanks for the welcome!

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Old 11/08/2017, 07:02 PM   #41
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100% agree with the bolded statement.

I don't keep NPS, I keep mostly sps, but I still live by heavy filtration and I'm trying to raise my nutrients by dosing some nitrate and phosphate. It sounds crazy when you say it like you just did... lol. And maybe it is! I have my reasons for doing it this way, I'm hoping my fish load will catch up and I can stop dosing without changing anything else.
If you need phosphate, I can ship you some cynobacteria.

I just got some NPS gorgonions and red encrusting sponges. I will see if I can get a picture. If not, it is the geek squad back up team tomorrow.


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Old 11/08/2017, 08:14 PM   #42
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Minimalist.

Does that mean “Laissez Faire”. For more than 40 years or reefing, I have chosen hardy life forms that are easy to keep. Perhapes sea apples and flame scallops require more than easy. The truth is not really. If system is mature, it should produce live food. Everything operates on Dynamic Equilibrium. Add food and sunlight to produce sugar as a carbon source and the food web starts.


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Old 11/08/2017, 08:17 PM   #43
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Pics are very beautiful!


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Old 11/08/2017, 08:31 PM   #44
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If you need phosphate, I can ship you some cynobacteria.

I just got some NPS gorgonions and red encrusting sponges. I will see if I can get a picture. If not, it is the geek squad back up team tomorrow.
Haha. Thanks, but I just got home to a cyano bloom of my very own.

I love nps gorgs. I feel like if I ever master sps and get bored, I may try them out.

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Old 11/08/2017, 08:41 PM   #45
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Pics are very beautiful!
Uncle,
Glad you came down from Canada. We are going to have our first night into the thirty’s here in Austin.


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Old 11/08/2017, 09:27 PM   #46
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A basketball size of macro in my refugium is not my most efficient inorganic nutrient removal. The large coral biomasses in my tank are my most efficient inorganic nutrients and organic nutrient removers.

Considering Ken Felderman research showing 75% removal of DOC generated by tank inhabitants is consumed by tank inhabitants, I would think that both organic and inorganic nutrients are required to produce DOC. What is consuming organic and inorganic nutrients to produce DOC?

I shall play Sherlock Holmes and say, “It’s elementary my dear Watson”.
The biological filter, including coral, will consume both organic and inorganic nutrients. If excess nutrients, biological filter responds with more algae growth with a corresponding growth in snails and herbivores. Everyone of these components have assimilated organic and inorganic nutrients into their biomass.
That sounds like natural filtration and multiple food webs.
Well your corals and other organisms can take up all the nutrients they like during the illumination period, just as mine do.
But I like the fact that my algae scrubber takes care of the excess nutrients at night, as well as the extra co2 expelled from all the other photosynthetic creatures in the tank during the lights out period.
At this time my algae scrubber will take up this extra co2 helping to maintain pH & reduce pH fluxuations. It's just Génial frérot


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Old 11/09/2017, 07:11 AM   #47
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Nutrients are uptaken during lights out by both bacteria and filter feeders. When I use night vision to peak into my tanks, I see many more fans, feathers and tentacles.

You are right about lights out in a reef tank. Oxygen becomes a critical issue for fish first. Bacteria consume massive amounts of oxygen. In my case with a 6” Jaubert Plenum across the footprint of 1.5’ by 4’. At three cubic feet of substrate that is 25G in a 75G tank. That is a lot of surface area for bacteria. Bacteria are the biggest player in my tank and I say in everyone’s tank. Consider this, bacteria consume nutrients and in so doing, they become food for everybody else in the tank either directly or by feeding an organism that becomes food, particularly in the case of filter feeders, which includes corals.

Let us get in depth about pH fluctuations in a reef tank. I say, much fuss over nothing. The pH fluctuates on the reefs of the ocean. Steady state pH is not normal. Is it harmful, I don't know. Six months ago, I schcronized my display tank and refugium light cycles. I was not concerned about oxygen depletion because of surface skimmer with agressive circulation at the surface. When surface water is skimmed from display, it cascades over bioballs in first chamber of mud/ macro refugium. Some of the most important chemistry and physics in our reef tanks take place at the water air interface. Due to Dynamic Equilibrium between the partial pressure of the gases: nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide are allowed to exchange back and forth between free gas in air and a saturated gas in water. How does that help our reef tank? Excess carbon dioxide is released to athmosphere thereby stabilizing pH in the water. Oxygen enters the water as demanded by the “partial pressure law” for gases, this is dynamic equilibrium of oxygen without photosynthesis.

I saved nitrogen for a seperate paragraph because of its complexity with bacteria. Cynobacteria, without them our athmosphere would be methane and sulfur. In a process called “nitrogen fixation” bacteria convert free nitrogen gas into an inorganic nitrate molecule, which is food to the entire reef community. In the marine environment, this is done with cynobacteria. On the opposite end of the spectrum in a reducing environment of oxygen, facultative bacteria consume an oxygen molecule of nitrate and release a free nitrogen gas molecule.

What I have described is the tip of the iceberg in natural reefkeeping. I call it “Intelligent Design”, which is above my pay grade.


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Old 11/09/2017, 02:54 PM   #48
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Two day ago, I got the most beautiful Chilli Coral that was showing his feathers in the shipping bag and transferred to tank without withdrawing feathers. I went to bed with feathers flying. Like a kid at Christmas, when I woke up I peaked into tank with red led light. The large rock ledge overhang had been dislodged by an urchin and lay on top of Chilli. He just begin showing feathers this morning, 48 hours after rock slide. To further clean Chilli up, I lifted him up 4” above substrate with an acrylic post.

To provide shade for NPS, I installed a Tang feeding station of Grape Caulerpa.


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Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
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Old 11/10/2017, 05:59 AM   #49
Subsea
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,340
In tank macro refugium

Twin,

You will be happy to know that I put my best nutrient export tool back to work.

Not really. I am providing shade for Chilli and a Tang feeding station. So, instead of nutrient export, I am doing nutrient recycling.

I made an acrylic bracket to hold eggcrate platform 6” below surface. I had already experimented with Tangs on favorite macro and it was Red Grapes. But they also eat Green Grapes which I had growing outside in 150G Rubbermade tanks buried in ground.

The deep water gorgonions are liking their shaded playground. I still have hopes for Chilli. I will not make the rock wall mistake again with bulldozer urchins in tank.


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Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout

Last edited by Subsea; 11/10/2017 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 11/10/2017, 05:20 PM   #50
Subsea
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,340
I borrowed some live rock that was going into 120V new build. Immediately after putting uncured diver collected live rock in tank, fish and urchins congregated on rock. The Sargassum Seaweed came from live-planes. I like the way it flows in the current. With all the photosynthetic gorgonians, which came from live-Plant, it looks like I parked on a Caribbean reef. On the opposite side of the spectrum is NPS gorgonions which also came from live-plants.


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Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
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