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Old 11/10/2017, 05:24 PM   #51
Subsea
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Sargassum Seaweed

Sorry, I can’t take close ups.


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Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
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Old 11/10/2017, 07:05 PM   #52
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Just briefly on the marine pure topic; you can have two tanks, both with a block.
If one tank has no NO3 issue that does not prove that marine pure is responsible, or effective. But if the other tank does have NO3 issues, that does prove that the marine pure was not effective, as in my case.

ICP testing has confirmed that marine pure leaches AI into the water.

And it is becomming apparent that when spirox is placed into an anoxic or anaerobic zone it leaches SI in high amounts


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Old 11/10/2017, 07:29 PM   #53
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Snails & pods feed tank

Twin,

I took your advice but not for the reason that you stated. My macro refugium was never set up for nutrient export. It is set up for live food production. Imagine a matrix of chaeto with reproducing snails & pods. There larvae go to the filter feeders, including coral.

Overflow box with raw water going thru 2G bucket of chaeto with snails and pods.


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Old 11/11/2017, 12:53 AM   #54
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Twin,

I took your advice but not for the reason that you stated. My macro refugium was never set up for nutrient export. It is set up for live food production. Imagine a matrix of chaeto with reproducing snails & pods. There larvae go to the filter feeders, including coral.

Overflow box with raw water going thru 2G bucket of chaeto with snails and pods.
Yep, another good reason to grow some algae.


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Old 11/11/2017, 08:47 AM   #55
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The coral reefs of the world would be covered in algae if not for herbivores. As much as I am all about algae, just look at my signature, I am more about the bugs. Just ask Tom Cruise in War of the Worlds.

The bugs, Microbial Overlords, won the battle in “War of the Worlds” and if we reefkeepers work with micro fauna and fana we will win the battle in our reef tanks.


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Old 11/13/2017, 12:11 PM   #56
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Chill is doing good on bottom tank in cryptic refugium.

Top Jaubert Plenum is iree!


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Old 11/13/2017, 02:03 PM   #57
pisanoal
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Originally Posted by Twinfallz View Post
Just briefly on the marine pure topic; you can have two tanks, both with a block.
If one tank has no NO3 issue that does not prove that marine pure is responsible, or effective. But if the other tank does have NO3 issues, that does prove that the marine pure was not effective, as in my case.

ICP testing has confirmed that marine pure leaches AI into the water.

And it is becomming apparent that when spirox is placed into an anoxic or anaerobic zone it leaches SI in high amounts

I half agree with you here.

All it proves if you use marine pure or similar and still have NO3 issues is that you have NO3 issues. Having NO3 or not having NO3 does not prove anything in regards to the media. All it shows is that it did not eliminate NO3 for that tank. How the blocks are implemented makes a difference on how effective they are. This is also stated in marine pure's FAQ section on this very topic.

Also, if you have 0 phosphate, you can add all the marine pure blocks you want, and your nitrates won't drop. Those are 2 scenarios where you could have nitrate and marine pure (or similar) where you haven't proven that it doesnt work, only that it doesn't work for your situation. There are more scenarios.

Anyways, they arent by any means a guaranteed nitrate reducing solution, but they are effective given the right conditions, same as LR.

I am aware of the aluminum, but as far as my research can tell, it has not been found to cause issues. There are lots of nice tanks with elevated Al from these blocks. I'm sure eventually it could become problematic, but I havent seen where someone has definitively determined that Al was a problem, and ive seen some pretty high Al levels on ICP tests.

I was actually not aware of the Si leaching of siporax, so thanks for that info. I'd like to do more digging there.

Subsea- nice updates. Tanks looking good

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Old 11/14/2017, 12:11 PM   #58
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As we seem to focus on de-nitrification, I say it is unnessary in our reef tanks.

Why do I want to remove a major nutrient required by coral to grow. I much prefer changing the inorganic nitrate molecule into organic biomass. If our husbandry is good, the organic biomass is a desirable product like coral or ornamental macro or live pods and the list goes on and on. Or it could be detritus during a water change or skimmate removed.

The point is that nitrogen should be considered a good thing and managed accordingly. It is a major player in “Intelligent Design”.


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Old 11/14/2017, 12:41 PM   #59
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As we seem to focus on de-nitrification, I say it is unnessary in our reef tanks.

Why do I want to remove a major nutrient required by coral to grow. I much prefer changing the inorganic nitrate molecule into organic biomass. If our husbandry is good, the organic biomass is a desirable product like coral or ornamental macro or live pods and the list goes on and on. Or it could be detritus during a water change or skimmate removed.

The point is that nitrogen should be considered a good thing and managed accordingly. It is a major player in “Intelligent Design”.
I agree we need some level of nutrients. Our tanks need a way to process the nutrients one way or another though. If you don't, they will build up to intolerable levels. So you need to remove nutrients in order to obtain a system balance. We don't want to strip them completely, but removal from the water column is essential.

I love the way you do it, how much time does it take to maintain your system? My impression is that it takes a lot of time and attention to run a system like that, so I'm curious to what your experience with it has been.

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Old 11/14/2017, 01:36 PM   #60
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It takes me very little time to maintain a natural system. I have gone several years without a water change. I have gone a month without even wiping the glass. However, it takes good planning at the beginning. After 25 years I have had a chance to work out the bugs. For any display tank to shine above others requires work on the part of the hobbiest. I am a Gardner tending his crop. Of course, I weed when I have to. However, instead of weeding why not get janitors that feed the tank with live food. I like bristle worms, ceriths, micro stars in the substrate. Each one of these janitors is recycling detritus into organic biomass in the form of larvae as a live food. Janitors population rises and falls with food supply automatically with me doing nothing. Inorganic nutrients are floating around in water column to be turned into glucose, which is a carbon source. Carbon dioxide as an inorganic molecule is converted into an organic molecule during photosynthesis. This is carbon fixation with an unending source in the athmosphere. Again this is done automatically with me doing nothing but supplying light and co2.

Where is all the work?


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Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout

Last edited by Subsea; 11/15/2017 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 11/15/2017, 12:36 AM   #61
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This is a wonderful conversation/debate. I am learning a lot. Thank you.


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Old 11/15/2017, 11:16 AM   #62
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This is a wonderful conversation/debate. I am learning a lot. Thank you.
Thank you. I always learn. When I stop learning, I die. By the way, I like your signature, it is a wise path.

If I can not explain it, then I need to learn more. When I first started on my marine hobby addiction, it was 1971 while attending Texas Marine Academy. I had just come back from four year in the USAF during Vietnam. I needed a change from the destruction that I had been a part of.

The beauty of the marine ecosystem allowed me to find peace and tranquility in the Elagance of God’s plan “Intelligent Design”.


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Last edited by Subsea; 11/15/2017 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 11/15/2017, 11:39 PM   #63
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Share failure

I hate it when I mess up.

I am watching my Scopas Tang go thru a toxic reaction from start up of HOB with a large sponge block, Aquaclear 110. When I retired my 150G tank, I removed HOB and cleaned up inside box and sponge, I thought. No other fish is showing any signs of stress. I decided not to remove tang because this tank can process ammonia faster than the acclimation time to move.

It always ****es me off to lose life under my stewardship. This particular fish has a unique survival story. I removed Scopas from a 55G ornamental macro display tank. When Scopa was introduced to 75G Jaubert Plenum, the 5 year resident yellow tang immediately became a bully. Later that night I saw Scopas hiding in macro with clamped fins. Clamped fins on a fish are seldom a good sign. On day 2, Scopas was still hiding in macro, but he did not have clamped fins. Whenever Scopas would venture out to eat, the yellow tang would run Scopas back into his prison. The strands of red macro were his bars. Later on day 2, I watched Scopas watch yellow tang. Ambush requires patience. Yellow Tang outweighed Scopas by 40%, however Scopas was agile and patient. Like a “Flash” Scopa seized the moment with an exposed yellow flank. For two more days, yellow tang continued to harass Scopas with determined push back. That was 4 months ago. They seem to have bonded and feed together with no problems as long as Scopas allows Yellow Tang to have “charge of the tank”.


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Old 11/16/2017, 08:17 AM   #64
pisanoal
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It takes me very little time to maintain a natural system. I have gone several years without a water change. I have gone a month without even wiping the glass. However, it takes good planning at the beginning. After 25 years I have had a chance to work out the bugs. For any display tank to shine above others requires work on the part of the hobbiest. I am a Gardner tending his crop. Of course, I weed when I have to. However, instead of weeding why not get janitors that feed the tank with live food. I like bristle worms, ceriths, micro stars in the substrate. Each one of these janitors is recycling detritus into organic biomass in the form of larvae as a live food. Janitors population rises and falls with food supply automatically with me doing nothing. Inorganic nutrients are floating around in water column to be turned into glucose, which is a carbon source. Carbon dioxide as an inorganic molecule is converted into an organic molecule during photosynthesis. This is carbon fixation with an unending source in the athmosphere. Again this is done automatically with me doing nothing but supplying light and co2.

Where is all the work?
I didn't say it was a lot of work. I was merely asking how much work you have to put in maintaining the system. It sounds pretty self sufficient, which is great.

By the way, I am well aware that nice tanks require work. Some are obviously more work then others. My system also requires very little maintenance as well although I do perform frequent water changes, that is more to replenish trace elements as I'm not a fan of dosing them.

My only concern to a system such as yours is an ever increasing bioload. You have to have some sort of nutrient export, unless you are now at complete steady state and you never feed the tank. If you are adding food on a regular basis, eventually, biomass will have to be removed. Such is the way of nature. Everything must maintain balance and stay within its bounds.

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Old 11/16/2017, 08:46 AM   #65
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Yes, nutrient export is accomplished when fragging and selling: coral, decorative macro, utilitarian macro and live pods.

I feed heavy. It is like putting Miracle Grow in the garden.


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Old 11/16/2017, 09:45 AM   #66
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Chilli

Chilli continues to improve.

When I finish with substrate vacuming, I expect sandbed to be down to 3”. Not likely to do denitrification, but I don’t want it to.


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Old Yesterday, 11:56 PM   #67
Subsea
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I didn't say it was a lot of work. I was merely asking how much work you have to put in maintaining the system. It sounds pretty self sufficient, which is great.

By the way, I am well aware that nice tanks require work. Some are obviously more work then others. My system also requires very little maintenance as well although I do perform frequent water changes, that is more to replenish trace elements as I'm not a fan of dosing them.

My only concern to a system such as yours is an ever increasing bioload. You have to haven’t some sort of nutrient export, unless you are now at complete steady state and you never feed the tank. If you are adding food on a regular basis, eventually, biomass will have to be removed. Such is the way of nature. Everything must maintain balance and stay within its bounds.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

What I find difficult to convey to modern reefers, particularly SPS keepers, is all nutrients are necessary for biomass to grow. For me, managing nutrients does not mean exporting skimmate from water. That skimmate is composed mostly of free swimming bacteria. At nighttime when your corals are feeding in the dark, what do you think they are eating. Bacteria are zooplankton for corals. Why would I export this live food with a protein skimmer?

Consider this scenario.
A protein skimmer removes bacteria which is live food for corals and other filter feeders. A reefer adds a “coral smoothie” then must remove this dead organic food source before it pollutes the tank. Tell me the sense in that.


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Old Yesterday, 11:57 PM   #68
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Nutrient Export

Instead of nutrient export, I say “Grow the Coral”. When tank is full of coral, then do nutrient export when you frag and sell.


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