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Old 01/26/2018, 06:12 AM   #1
ReefkeeperZ
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LED idiot: help me out

OK I know jack about LED's I just know the last ones I bought I cant stand, looking for LED options for 40 breeder, my key features are light blending (hate the disco ball color effect seeing red/green/blue spots on the bottom of my tank) reliability and enough power to grow SPS.
Sorry also price range about 500$ or less if possible
I have always been a VHO/halide guy. but I like the energy cost of LED can some one help an old school reefer out?


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Old 01/26/2018, 06:20 AM   #2
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It doesnt need to be tunable from my phone or anything like that knobs are just fine for me doesnt need all kinds of bells and whistles. though If I can get a decent linght with cool features I wont argue. but like I said primary importance is light blending reliability and ability to grow corals.


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Old 01/26/2018, 06:21 AM   #3
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ReefBreeders Photon V2 with custom LED layout. ReefmanRon is the resident LED guru and can help you out. Standby.....


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Old 01/26/2018, 06:26 AM   #4
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standing by: i'm not in a rush. have a couple weeks to make up my mind


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Old 01/26/2018, 06:36 AM   #5
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Kessil. Period. I have come over to the LED side. I still love MH, but the LED's make it easier. Just sayin. Kessil 360 for a 40 beeder or 2 160's depending on how far you keep the lights over the water. I have three 160's for an 80 gallon - 16" deep. Just sharing what has worked for me...

Get them USED. They are bullet proof. I bought four 160's used and blew them out with compressed air and the always work..


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Old 01/26/2018, 06:54 AM   #6
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I can hang em at any height up to the ceiling so height isnt an issue


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Old 01/26/2018, 06:55 AM   #7
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I was eyeballing those lights earlier but I want to get more experienced feedback before jumping in any direction


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Old 01/26/2018, 07:12 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by RobZilla04 View Post
ReefBreeders Photon V2 with custom LED layout. ReefmanRon is the resident LED guru and can help you out. Standby.....
Ha!

I don't think the Reef Breeders Photon V2 is the fixture for the OP. The OP seems to have a serious dislike of the disco ball effect and the V2 has it. You can dial away most of it by not running the red or green leds (which is what I do most of the time). But ANY led fixture where the leds are laid out in a big array over a wide area, like all the black box fixtures, will have some disco issues.

The best way to avoid the disco effect is to use an led fixture that has the leds clumped together in a small area which is commonly called a 'point source' light. Some use leds in a puck like enclosure and some use a different version of leds where a number of very small leds are on one small board.

There is one possible exception to this design issue, the Reef Breeders AquaSanrise Plus series. They use leds grouped together in pucks, but the pucks are spread out in a wide array. So they have kind of split the difference. You get good wide coverage with less shadows than the point source led fixtures and you get less, if any, disco effect that the led array fixtures suffer with. It's kind of the best of both worlds. It's also a wifi fixture if that floats your boat (I'm not a big fan of wifi fixtures).


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Old 01/26/2018, 07:21 AM   #9
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Do you think the kessil 360 fits my bill ron? I have heard a lot of good things about the kessils.


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Old 01/26/2018, 07:30 AM   #10
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Ha!

I don't think the Reef Breeders Photon V2 is the fixture for the OP. The OP seems to have a serious dislike of the disco ball effect and the V2 has it. You can dial away most of it by not running the red or green leds (which is what I do most of the time). But ANY led fixture where the leds are laid out in a big array over a wide area, like all the black box fixtures, will have some disco issues.

The best way to avoid the disco effect is to use an led fixture that has the leds clumped together in a small area which is commonly called a 'point source' light. Some use leds in a puck like enclosure and some use a different version of leds where a number of very small leds are on one small board.

There is one possible exception to this design issue, the Reef Breeders AquaSanrise Plus series. They use leds grouped together in pucks, but the pucks are spread out in a wide array. So they have kind of split the difference. You get good wide coverage with less shadows than the point source led fixtures and you get less, if any, disco effect that the led array fixtures suffer with. It's kind of the best of both worlds. It's also a wifi fixture if that floats your boat (I'm not a big fan of wifi fixtures).



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Old 01/26/2018, 08:39 AM   #11
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Do you think the Kessil 360 fits my bill Ron? I have heard a lot of good things about the Kessils.
I think a single Kessil A360 could work, but would not be ideal, unless you plan on only having rock and corals in the center of the aquarium. Anything over a 24" spread is pushing it for a single-cluster LED fixture. If going with Kessils, a pair of A160's would be better, although with a controller would be a bit over your $500 budget. Personally I am not the biggest fan of the color rendition offered by Kessil fixtures outside of the A700 (and yes I have used them).

Ron is correct with the diode-spacing "disco" risk of the ReefBreeders Photon. The Aquasanrise would be better for your needs, but it only has one white diode color (similar to the Kessils), although it is not bad at 7500K. (I have used the Photon, but not the Aquasanrise). It does offer onboard and wireless controller options, and is under budget, but I have another option...

You might consider the new 150W Maxspect Razor X, which has three clusters using reflectors instead of lenses (better color blending), onboard controller (with a wireless option at additional cost), and both 6500K and 3000K white diodes, which some (like me) find gives slightly better color rendition. (I have not used this latest generation, but have and still use the previous generation). This size will be just over your $500 budget at around $520, and I believe the onboard controller works well enough, with this new generation offering presets (old ones did not).

You will definitely get a better (more evenly distributed) light field with the Aquasanrise and Maxspect over a single Kessil or even a pair (pair of A360's would be close though, but way over budget).


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Old 01/26/2018, 08:42 AM   #12
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Marsaqua 300w. Go to HD or Lowes and buy the clear-pebbled light diffuser and the cutting tool (it will shatter otherwise). Replace the clear acrylic shield with the diffuser, and I’d go ahead and remove the lenses as well. No more disco. If you can add a pair of t5, put in something that covers the violet spectrum. If not, swap out a few of the leds with some 420nm. Or, save yourself a lot of time and money and find a pair of used 175w halide pendants!


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Old 01/26/2018, 09:00 AM   #13
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It sounds like you are as sensitive to disco/color separation as I am, I seriously dislike it. Even blue/white seperation looks bad to me. Kessil is going to be your best bet for commercial LED, Blueacro stars with reflector/diffuser optics if you want to DIY, as you know T-5 will blend best but you don't get the shimmer, an ATI 4X39 and bulbs will run you around 500 or 6X0 for a 6 bulb(Not sure what kind of SPS tank you are looking for).


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Old 01/26/2018, 10:23 AM   #14
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I have two A160 plus the hybrid t5 24" from Aquatic Life. My tank is 36x18x12 however its an AIO and that takes up about 4 inches of length so my tank is really 32 x 18 x 12.

I made a custom mounting instead of using the wires they give you. Also, Aquatic Life only comes with the A360 mount, they are making the A160 and it should be out soon™.

I do need to clean some of those wires up.




Edit: I will post my setting tonight


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Old 01/26/2018, 11:39 AM   #15
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...save yourself a lot of time and money and find a pair of used 175w halide pendants!
Not sure this would be saving any time, two 175W would be overkill for a mixed reef (at least from an energy standpoint, with a single 150W usually sufficient with the right reflector), and he specifically asked for LED options.

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...as you know T-5 will blend best but you don't get the shimmer, an ATI 4X39 and bulbs will run you around 500 or 600 for a 6 bulb (Not sure what kind of SPS tank you are looking for).
Why are "we" always trying to convert others? He specifically asked for an LED option. Please note that I am not trying to be confrontational or "snarky", but seriously wonder why this is such a common response when posters have questions like this.

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I have two A160 plus the hybrid t5 24" from Aquatic Life. My tank is 36x18x12 however its an AIO and that takes up about 4 inches of length so my tank is really 32 x 18 x 12.

I made a custom mounting instead of using the wires they give you. Also, Aquatic Life only comes with the A360 mount, they are making the A160 and it should be out soon™.
That will be significantly over his $500 budget.


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Old 01/26/2018, 11:48 AM   #16
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Why are "we" always trying to convert others? He specifically asked for an LED option.

And I gave him 2 LED opinions. If you are going to quote me and accuse me of not giving an appropriate answer I would appreciate if you quote my whole post where I did answer his question.


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Old 01/26/2018, 11:59 AM   #17
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And I gave him 2 LED opinions. If you are going to quote me and accuse me of not giving an appropriate answer I would appreciate if you quote my whole post where I did answer his question.
OK, here you go (although you did the same in leaving out part of mine, maybe intentionally?), and since he stated that "he knows jack about LED", you really only gave him one, as DIY is not optimum if one "knows jack". You also stated Kessils, but not which model or how many. I also did not state your answer was inappropriate, but queried why you included T5 - my apologies for the offense.


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Old 01/26/2018, 06:01 PM   #18
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Thought of one more, aquaticlife halo. One deluxe and one slave will run 550 (close to your budget) on Amazon. They are also a COB array below a single lense.

They are a little too bright blue (bit windex looking IMO) for my taste, rather than the deeper blue violet from the kessil. Some people have said it is easier to get the 14K Phoenix look with them. I saw one over a frag tank at someone's house and the coral popped, especially the reds and oranges. He liked it.

Edit: Zooman, I mentioned the blueacro stars because they fit the no disco requirement and he would not have to plan out a spectrum. It is as plug and play as you get, still not easy. I included the T5's because is fits his budget and will grow any SPS he wants to put in the tank, he is welcome to ignore it. I did not see that third sentence the first time around, If that was edited in I probably had the post window open. No worries either way.



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Old 01/26/2018, 07:14 PM   #19
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Thought of one more, aquaticlife halo. One deluxe and one slave will run 550 (close to your budget) on Amazon. They are also a COB array below a single lense.

They are a little too bright blue (bit windex looking IMO) for my taste, rather than the deeper blue violet from the kessil. Some people have said it is easier to get the 14K Phoenix look with them. I saw one over a frag tank at someone's house and the coral popped, especially the reds and oranges. He liked it.

Edit: Zooman, I mentioned the blueacro stars because they fit the no disco requirement and he would not have to plan out a spectrum. It is as plug and play as you get, still not easy. I included the T5's because is fits his budget and will grow any SPS he wants to put in the tank, he is welcome to ignore it. I did not see that third sentence the first time around, If that was edited in I probably had the post window open. No worries either way.
I would agree with the AquaticLife Halo's being a viable option (analogous to the Kessil A360's, not comparable to the A160's), but one may have to include the arms for mounting to the aquarium (same concern for Kessils), which would add $120 to the overall cost, totaling $670, and I am not sure their programming is easier (although it is "onboard", and therefore not additional $$$). I have however found that their color rendition is worse than offered by the Kessils (which is not the greatest IMO) - reds and oranges for corals (i.e. florescence) are usually easy under many blue channels, but light oranges and yellows (say in some fish) are not as well rendered. Blues and purples can also seem washed out. Simply put, using higher Kelvin whites alone (i.e. without warmer whites or similar) impacts color rendition in a negative way for many aquarists.

I still submit that for the constraints of the OP's budget, experience (w/ LEDs), "needs" (mixed/ SPS corals, no "disco"), and aquarium size, that the 150W/ 28" Maxspect Razor X would be their best bet if they want to employ an LED fixture. I am not stating that other options will not work, and many may view other options as preferable within their own parameters.


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Old 01/29/2018, 03:47 AM   #20
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mounting is a non issue for me, as long as the lights have a location to attach something to I can fabricate what I need for mounting or suspending the lights.


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Old 01/29/2018, 03:49 AM   #21
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I already have a 150W halide pendant that I was considering going back to, but I was hoping for an LED option for energy efficiency, which is why I created this thread, if there arent any LEDs that can truly give me what I want I will go back to other lighting. but this thread is all about LEDs for me I'm trying to get a feel for whether or not I can accomplish what I want with LED or not.


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Old 01/29/2018, 05:37 AM   #22
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I think a single Kessil A360 could work, but would not be ideal, unless you plan on only having rock and corals in the center of the aquarium. Anything over a 24" spread is pushing it for a single-cluster LED fixture.
That's not necessarily a bad thing I could easily do SPS center fading to softies on the edges to non-photosynthetic at the outer regions, I do have a liking for sponges and gorgonians.


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Old 01/29/2018, 08:24 AM   #23
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mounting is a non issue for me, as long as the lights have a location to attach something to I can fabricate what I need for mounting or suspending the lights.
I prefer to have either option (i.e. mount or hanging) as it gives me flexibility going forward, and not having to come up with a mounting solution allows one to worry about other issues.

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I already have a 150W halide pendant that I was considering going back to, but I was hoping for an LED option for energy efficiency, which is why I created this thread, if there arent any LEDs that can truly give me what I want I will go back to other lighting. but this thread is all about LEDs for me I'm trying to get a feel for whether or not I can accomplish what I want with LED or not.
I probably should have been more "tactful", but I continue to be amazed that so many here on RC automatically default to the standard debate item of "which is better?", followed by advising one to forget LED and go with MH/T5. It wasn't necessarily egregious here, and I apologize for "mucking up" the thread.

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That's not necessarily a bad thing I could easily do SPS center fading to softies on the edges to non-photosynthetic at the outer regions, I do have a liking for sponges and gorgonians.
Many would steer clear of that exact scenario, as certain SPS would have shading issues under even an A360we, but I have not personally attempted it, so I am not absolutely certain. I would not recommend it though, as I have attempted such layout and just soft corals and anemones, and shading was an issue after a while. It was not terrible, but might have been an issue if I had kept certain SPS in abundance.

A single Kessil is not really analogous to a MH in spread (power maybe), as the reflectors of most MH offer greater "spread" due to to reflection within the unit, and that cannot be exactly replicated with the diode cluster of the Kessil. In this case, you will find a lot of recommendations to add T5's (i.e. retrofit) to that Kessil.


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Old 01/29/2018, 11:06 AM   #24
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I already have a 150W halide pendant that I was considering going back to, but I was hoping for an LED option for energy efficiency, which is why I created this thread, if there arent any LEDs that can truly give me what I want I will go back to other lighting.
Well first off you can get energy efficiency in almost any current premium LED fixture.
This comes in 2 places.
1)watt efficiency. MH are on the order of 100Lumens/watt.
current LED's are approaching 200Lumens/watt
now a visible metric but used to show a concept

2)Directionality.. no matter how you look at it MH/T5's are 360 degree emitters. LED start at about 120 degree and are collimated to 90-60 degrees.
That alone makes them more "efficient" light sources.
Regardless of reflector efficiency there will always be losses bouncing back/forth absorption.

Whether it pays off the increased investment costs is another story.

LED strength is in color tailoring, targeting and control.
A 30W LED (currently) will never produce the same amount of photons over a 150W MH.
'Best" estimate is to use a factor of 2 or less.. watt wise..
75W LED = 150W MH.
BROAD assumption but one needs a starting point..

In a sense LEd's are not any limiting factor (in output or cost really) but current designs are..

for a 40B I'd recommend any "panel" light (like the Orphek Atlantic) over pucks.
As to pucks.. you are forgetting Aquaticlife Halos.. Kind of a compromise between Radion density and Kessil density..

2 Radion xr15 gen4 are big $'s 190W exceeding (theoretically and practically)the output of 400W Mh

Pucks can be moved even tilted to cut down on shadowing (shadows are just basic geometry) ect.

One puck will generally be enough for a 40b w/ some caveats..
w/ diffuser and proper height it will meet or exceed a 150W MH.

Others will chime in if I'm way off base here but see little in the way of gross errors..


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Old 01/29/2018, 02:40 PM   #25
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I already have a 150W halide pendant that I was considering going back to, but I was hoping for an LED option for energy efficiency, which is why I created this thread, if there arent any LEDs that can truly give me what I want I will go back to other lighting. but this thread is all about LEDs for me I'm trying to get a feel for whether or not I can accomplish what I want with LED or not.
Iíve been where you are. If you are dead set on LEDs, go the marsaqua 300 route and swap some of the leds for 420nm like I said in my previous post. SBreeflights has awesome fixtures I you arenít interested in doing DIY LED swapping. A Phoenix 14k is $35 and will grow beautiful coral like crazy. How many years can you run your halide on $35 bulbs compared to the cost of new fixtures? Thatís efficiency in my book. A 150w halide will use the same amount of electricity as 1 of the black box fixtures.


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