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Old 03/02/2018, 05:45 AM   #1
ReefkeeperZ
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about to vingar dose: but

I'm going to start vinegar dosing on my reef to help me get it back to where it should be, but my question is should I mix the vinegar in with my daily alk dose? not kalkwasser, my calcium is high enough but i'm keeping my alk up using seachem reef builder. any thoughts on this? and will it affect solubility of the reef builder? I know vinegar in kalk can increase the calcium and alk out put, but not sure if it will affect just a stand alone alk product like reef builder.


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Old 03/02/2018, 06:21 AM   #2
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Not a chemist nor an expert. I keep mine separate and dose at sufficient intervals to allow each time to enter the water column before the next. That being for Cal, Alk, Mg, and Carbon. Although Mg and Carbon are currently offline.


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Old 03/02/2018, 06:48 AM   #3
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I was kinda hoping doing alk and vinegar at the same time may negate the PH swing generally associated with vinegar dosing.


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Old 03/02/2018, 07:15 AM   #4
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I was kinda hoping doing alk and vinegar at the same time may negate the PH swing generally associated with vinegar dosing.
IMO ppl over state when using the term "swing." In almost all cases the water volume in our tanks compared to dosing amounts do not amount to a rise/fall in any value that really makes a difference to our livestock.

I submit to "stability is key", however I'm not convinced that a pH swing of .1 is harming anything. The same for a dKH rise or fall of .1 or .2 or .3.

What I'm getting at is unless your system is 50g and your dumping 50ml of vinegar in a single dose, don't worry about the slight rise/fall in pH.

Soap box put away.


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Old 03/02/2018, 09:46 AM   #5
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fair enough. my eyesight isnt even discerning enough do differentiate a 0.1 change on a ph color scale.... lol


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Old 03/03/2018, 03:25 PM   #6
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You can mix those supplements. Dosing them at the same time rather than physically mixing them should have the same effect, as well.


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Old 03/08/2018, 09:04 AM   #7
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time to tack another question on here: my nitrates are considerable, but my phosphate is nigh undetectable, is vinegar dosing dependant on having available Phos to be effective? I do have monopotassium phosphate I could add if necessary to increase the efficacy.


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Old 03/08/2018, 09:18 AM   #8
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time to tack another question on here: my nitrates are considerable, but my phosphate is nigh undetectable, is vinegar dosing dependant on having available Phos to be effective? I do have monopotassium phosphate I could add if necessary to increase the efficacy.
Having "considerable" and "nigh undetectable" defined in numbers would be helpful.

In general carbon dosing will remove much more nitrate than phosphate. Some where it's quoted at a ratio of 16:1 but I think there is confusion with the Redfield ratio in that assessment.

I suggest basing your dosing on the appearance of algae / growth of corals. You cannot have 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. Low low values of each <1 nitrate and <.05 phos can create new issues as I believe those are referred to as ULNS.


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Old 03/08/2018, 09:19 AM   #9
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My phospates was undetecable too, still is, 0 with salifert test. But with vinegar dosing i was able to lover nitrates from 10mg to 0,2-0.5mg


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Old 03/08/2018, 09:22 AM   #10
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If you find that your nitrates aren't going lower dispite an increase in carbon dosage or whatever then you may be phosphate limited and need to dose some phosphate to get the process going again..


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Old 03/08/2018, 02:09 PM   #11
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Having "considerable" and "nigh undetectable" defined in numbers would be helpful.
NO3- is about 80ppm
PO4 3- is 0 or nigh undetectable as far as I can tell from coloration.


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Old 03/08/2018, 02:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Having "considerable" and "nigh undetectable" defined in numbers would be helpful.
if I ever see a color strip/print out that matches a color in any test tube i''ll crap my pants. I don't know if I'm color blind or what but seriously I can never actually tell what is what. I just spitball it.

I figure if the color changes a lot from the beginning to the end in time delay for wait for color to develop its considerable, if it barely changes or not at all as far as I can tell it's undetectable.


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Old 03/08/2018, 02:42 PM   #13
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So the vinegar is not what lowers your nitrates/phosphates. It feeds bacteria and once you have a colony of bacteria growing, you lower N&P by skimming out the bacteria. I dont know if it has been shown that the bacteria actually consume the N&P. But like most living things they will be made up of approx. 16-1 N to P ratio. I personally lean towards the idea that the bacteria dont actually "eat" the N&P otherwise they would be present in all tanks and we would not have Nitrate/Phosphate issues.
Cheers! Mark


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Old 03/08/2018, 03:11 PM   #14
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To elaborate on Mark's last sentences, it's important we recognize we would not have N/P issues if we had more available C.
If adding C doesn't lower N, that suggests P is limiting.

Carbon dosing is analogous to using algae with a few exceptions: 1) The rate of bacterial growth is faster than algae, so changes in nutrient availability and pH occur more rapidly, and 2) The bacteria are largely heterotrophic so O2 will drop, and algae increase O2 when fixing carbon. Those differences aside. C, N, and P wind up in the biomass of bacteria. The options for bacteria (or algae) then are 1) release C, N, and P back into the water column, 2) Sequester the C, N and P indefinitely, or 3) Export the nutrients. (1) is counter-productive, (2) is unlikely and undesirable because any O2 consumed by bacteria is unavailable for fishes and corals, (3) is the desirable action and can be done with filters or skimmers.



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Old 03/08/2018, 03:15 PM   #15
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Yea, what he said ^


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Old 03/08/2018, 11:46 PM   #16
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Carbon dosing might be able to help with the nitrate level even though the phosphate level measures zero. You could give it a shot, but I'd watch carefully for any signs of trouble with corals. You might need to dose phosphate to make the approach work.

Have you checked the nitrite level? Nitrite will confuse nitrate test kits. A second opinion might be useful, but that nitrate level is believable.


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Old 03/09/2018, 06:00 AM   #17
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this tank is a couple years old at this point, it's been one of those tanks that has been hit with every problem, once I start getting it turned around something else goes wrong. I swear if I was a beginner in this hobby this is the tank that makes you quit, I probably would have given up already if I didn't have the experience level I do.

the high nitrates are not from general poor husbandry I will say, we had a long power outage a couple months ago and I had massive losses of corals and pretty much all the bug life, worms etc.

I'm going to give the carbon dosing more time, I have only been dosing about a week now and I know it can be slow starting out to see results. I just figured I'd ask now so I can formulate a plan and adjust as needed after a decent duration. I will say I have noticed an increase in skimmer production after only 7 days (today being day 7) tomorrow I double the dose.


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Old 03/09/2018, 07:56 AM   #18
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How much vinegar are you dosing per day? Tank size?


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Old 03/09/2018, 12:59 PM   #19
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40B with a 55g sump total volume is about 50 gallons once displacement is accounted for I have a lot of sand, but about a 25g fill on the sump. at day 7 i'm dosing about 14 ML vinegar, tomorrow per the table I read I should be doubling every week up to a max of 45ml per hundred so my max will be 25?


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Old 03/09/2018, 05:20 PM   #20
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I personally dose 3 reefs with vinegar. I find my max is approx. 1ml vinegar per gallon of tankwater a day. That is the point where I get huge elephant snot in my reef (typically in the pumps and hoses) Keep skimming and have a great weekend!
Cheers Mark


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Old 03/09/2018, 05:32 PM   #21
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do you run carbon for it to grow on or only skim?


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Old 03/09/2018, 06:51 PM   #22
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I only run a skimmer. After a while of dosing you will notice bacteria growing. I first started to see it in high flow areas - inside pumps and hoses. Dont panic the bacteria is harmless, just make sure you have the skimmer running, not only to remove bacteria but to keep your water aerated. Huge colonies of bacteria can deplete oxygen from your reef, so a little surface agitation is good for gas exchange as well. Now that I have a lot of bacterial colonies, I sometimes find a ball of snot. I just use a net and get rid of them. Give it some time.
Cheers! Mark


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Old 03/11/2018, 09:45 AM   #23
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that was fun.... just caught the 4 damsels out of my tank... now I remember why I don't ever put fish I don't want forever into a tank. lol so fishless should assist the nitrate reduction... in theory.

they were nice for the couple years I had em but I want to go with my chosen stock list now.


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Old 03/11/2018, 10:58 AM   #24
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yesterdays test on the bottom/left, todays on the top/right. some one want to tell me what that reads?


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Old 03/11/2018, 11:07 AM   #25
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yesterdays test on the bottom/left, todays on the top/right. some one want to tell me what that reads?
I have the same issue. Instead of trying to put a number on the result, I try to stay yellow, with red being a huge warning and orange meaning still needs attention. That said, it looks like you made it out of "defcon 1" and are headed in the right direction.
Cheers! Mark


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