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Old 03/03/2018, 09:31 AM   #1
brwaldbaum
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Fish Won't Eat

I have a fish-only 40 breeder that was cycled with ammonium chloride and has had fish in it for five weeks. The inhabitants consist of 1 Centropyge bispinosa, 1 Centropyge ferrugata, and 1 Centropyge acanthops. When first purchased, all fish were treated with a formalin dip, followed by two weeks of metro/praziquantel (the metro/praziquantel was re-dosed after the 1st week).

They won't eat. I've tried two brands of flake, 4 varieties of frozen foods, raw grocery store shrimp, spinach leaves, and live blackworms.

Help!


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Old 03/03/2018, 02:08 PM   #2
billdogg
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I can think of a few things, with stress being a big issue. You've put 3 dwarf angels (well, 2 dwarfs and a pygmy) into a barely cycled tank that really isn't big enough for one of them, much less all three. Liveaquaria suggests a minimum tank size of 70g for the dwarfs and 55 for the pygmy. If you take a look at their compatibility chart (that I've found to be fairly accurate) it says they can be housed with con-specifics with caution. I wouldn't try two in my 120, much less all 3 in a 40.

How is your water testing with them in there? That, too, can be a problem especially with such a new tank. The denitrifying bacteria are very probably having trouble keeping up. In time they will be able to handle a comparable bioload, but right from the start you are asking a lot.

Another factor is that Rustys tend to be difficult to acclimate and at least IME, have a dismal survival rate. The Coral Beauty and Flameback tend to do much better.

You can try some spirolina enriched brine shrimp - soak them in some selcon as well. I have had great success over the years with the various sizes of New Life Spectrum pellets as well.

jm.02


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Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, ASM G2 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, no skimmer (yet)
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Old 03/03/2018, 03:20 PM   #3
Pet Detective
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I would try live brine shrimp, if they won't eat that then.....I fear the worse.

I agree with Bill on the Rusty Angel, very delicate, same goes for Flame, Potters, Keyhole and Midnight Angels.
Coral Beauty, Half Black, Eibl's, Bicolor & Lemonpeel Angels are much hardier, as well as most pygmy angels.

Good luck, I hope they start eating for you.


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Old 03/03/2018, 09:39 PM   #4
brwaldbaum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billdogg View Post
I can think of a few things, with stress being a big issue. You've put 3 dwarf angels (well, 2 dwarfs and a pygmy) into a barely cycled tank that really isn't big enough for one of them, much less all three. Liveaquaria suggests a minimum tank size of 70g for the dwarfs and 55 for the pygmy. If you take a look at their compatibility chart (that I've found to be fairly accurate) it says they can be housed with con-specifics with caution. I wouldn't try two in my 120, much less all 3 in a 40.

How is your water testing with them in there? That, too, can be a problem especially with such a new tank. The denitrifying bacteria are very probably having trouble keeping up. In time they will be able to handle a comparable bioload, but right from the start you are asking a lot.

Another factor is that Rustys tend to be difficult to acclimate and at least IME, have a dismal survival rate. The Coral Beauty and Flameback tend to do much better.

You can try some spirolina enriched brine shrimp - soak them in some selcon as well. I have had great success over the years with the various sizes of New Life Spectrum pellets as well.

jm.02
Ammonia tests zero. I don't test nitrite, because it's harmless in saltwater. Since I've had fish in the tank, I've done 2 water changes: 50% and 70%.

Considering what you said about the ferrugata, I'll put her in a separate tank. With regard to the bispinosa and acanthops, both will take food into their mouth, but then they spit it out, including the blackworms. That really confuses me, because I've always found blackworms to be a surefire way to get reluctant eaters to eat.

Would symptoms of stress be evident in more than just feeding behavior? I ask because the bispinosa and acanthops seem to get along. In the 1st week, the bispinosa would chase the acanthops. Now, they share a sleeping space.


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Old 03/04/2018, 08:27 AM   #5
brwaldbaum
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I figured it out (I think). After reading the replies, I checked on the fish, and the bispinosa had unilateral exophthalmia with cloudiness. I did a freshwater dip: flukes. It seems the formalin/prazi treatments were insufficient.


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Old 03/04/2018, 08:39 AM   #6
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In reading this article it doesn't sound like flukes are the problem?

https://www.thespruce.com/popeye-in-...m-fish-3888404

IMHO, it's more likely that it injured it's eye while chasing/being chased through/around the rocks and now has a bacterial infection best treated with tetracycline or other similar antibiotic


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Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, ASM G2 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, no skimmer (yet)

Last edited by billdogg; 03/04/2018 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 03/04/2018, 09:32 AM   #7
brwaldbaum
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Her eye is no longer swollen.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Popeyeparasit.htm

Still don't know if she'll eat; I haven't offered anything yet.

Do you know how long fluke eggs need to be exposed to air to render them inviable? I pulled the rockwork.

Thanks for your replies, by the way.


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Old 03/04/2018, 12:35 PM   #8
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IMHO, it's more likely that it injured it's eye while chasing/being chased through/around the rocks and now has a bacterial infection best treated with tetracycline or other similar antibiotic

In reading this article doesn't it sound like flukes are the problem?

Ok so my post with the link in it isn't showing. This is copy/pasted from another site:

"Popeye" in saltwater aquarium fish, scientifically known as exophthalmos or exophthalmia, is the swelling of the eye, with or without cloudiness, which is caused by the pressure of fluid building up inside the eye itself. The fluid inside the eye consists of white blood cells and fluids. Popeye is actually not a disease but is a condition which is the result of a bacterial infection which can originate somewhere else, other than the eye, in the fish's body.


Causes of Popeye

Popeye is normally caused by an injury somewhere on the fish's body (usually, but not always to the eye itself) which allows bacteria to enter the fish's body and causing a bacterial infection. In defense, the fish's body produces white blood cells to defend itself against the infection. These white blood cells can migrate to the eye itself and cause it to swell and become discolored.

Quite often, the injury is to the eye itself. The injury can be caused by an "ammonia burn' or a scratch or other damage to the eye. Ammonia is acidic and when high concentrations of ammonia come in contact with the eye for any length of time, the outer layer of the eye can literally be burned off, leaving a large opening for bacteria to enter the eye. Ammonia burns happen most frequently during the cycling period in a new tank when ammonia spikes frequently occur. Frequently, fish are exposed to high levels of ammonia during the collection and transport of wild caught fish.

Normally, wild captured fish are placed in containers at sea and then transported to the holding facility before being shipped to their end destination. If steps are not taken (adequate filtration system, frequent water changes, chemical treatment) to eliminate the ammonia produced by the fish, Popeye will be the end result.

The damage may not be evident immediately but instead will show up a day or two later. Ammonia burns are not limited to the eye itself, but can also easily affect the gills of the fish. A symptom of this is rapid gilling when the fish is at rest and not excited by outside stimulation.

Actual physical injury to the fish's eye can have a number of causes, the most frequent of which is scratches to the outer surface of the eye by a net (less than careful netting of a fish with an abrasive net material) or a contact injury from another fish (some dorsal fins have very sharp spines) or from its environment such as live rock in a tank.
Treatment:

The treatment for Popeye is the same as for almost any other bacterial infection which is the administration of a good saltwater aquarium fish broad spectrum antibiotic such as tetracycline, chloramphenicol or kanamycin which will kill the invading bacteria. The earlier the treatment is administered, the better the odds of a full recovery.

Since the antibiotics used for the treatment of this condition can damage the biological filter in a saltwater aquarium, if the other occupants of the show tank do not show signs of Popeye, it is best to remove the affected fish to a Quarantine Tank for treatment.

If the show tank is to be treated, immediately remove any ammonia in the tank with a good ammonia reducer. This will limit the damage being caused and allow the fish to start healing. Once treatment is complete, the addition of a Saltwater Nitrifying Bacteria Tank Starter will help kick start the biological filter.
Prognosis:

If the treatment is successful, eventually the eye will deflate but may result in various conclusions.

In minor eye trauma situations, the eye will usually return to its normal appearance without blindness.
In more serious cases where treatment is not provided or proves to be ineffective, the eye may appear colorless and gray, resulting in blindness to the eye, but is not necessarily fatal.

In cases where one or both eyes have sustained severe trauma and treatment is not provided or proves to be ineffective, the eye(s) may burst or disappear altogether. This can be such a traumatic event that the fish may not recover and death will occur.

Prevention:

Since bacteria is the main ingredient in the causes of Popeye, maintaining excellent water quality in the aquarium is of the utmost importance in prevention.

Use the smoothest of net material when netting a fish to avoid scratching the eyes.

hth!

If a fish is physically injured, remove it to a QT and treat for infection until the wound has healed.


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I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up!

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, ASM G2 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, no skimmer (yet)
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Old 03/05/2018, 07:07 PM   #9
brwaldbaum
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They're eating frozen food.


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Old 03/08/2018, 07:23 AM   #10
gonioporagirl
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There could be many reasons as to why your fish aren't eating. The one that first comes to mind is stress. Medications and dip stress the fish, and they may just need time to adjust and settle in to their new environment. What are your parameters? That could also be a factor to keep an eye on.


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Old 03/08/2018, 07:22 PM   #11
brwaldbaum
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Thanks for replying, but re-treating for flukes (freshwater dip @ 10 minutes, followed by praziquantel @ 7.5 ppm for 4 days) seemed to do the trick. They're eating frozen food.


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