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Old 07/24/2004, 09:38 AM   #26
billsreef
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Paul,

I got certified almost 10 years after you, my card reads the same and the duration of the course was the same. Took up most of a summer. The amount of time and drilling in that course makes me wonder about the short day or two courses that here about these days

nitroxdiver009,

Your far better off practicing and refining your buoyancy control and reducing your weight than overweighting for any reason. If you have a buddy going into an out of control ascent, you don't need to be weighted enough to sink them, you just need to be able to slow the ascent to a safe rate. And that just takes some extra drag wich you will be able to supply without the extra lead Also your photography will get better with better control as oposed to extra lead. It just takes practice...and that means more diving


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Old 07/24/2004, 01:34 PM   #27
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Bill, You probably got certified the same place as me at "Central SCUBA Divers" The course damn near killed me.
Paul


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Old 07/25/2004, 12:07 AM   #28
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god i love scuba... my computer busted and dive captin wont let me use his spg on my regulator .... so im not going to go..

I WILL NEVER dive with out my own equptment ( besides he computer which i can do without)
I know my stuff way to well i can almost assemble the gear with my eyes closed.

Only time i will not use my own gear is if i can practice with the new stuff first ( in less then 10 ft)


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Old 07/25/2004, 12:33 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul B
Bill, You probably got certified the same place as me at "Central SCUBA Divers" The course damn near killed me.
Paul
I was living too far East, still do Got my certification at the old 7 Z's in Flanders. My instructer was former para trooper, drilled us hard but quite well

Heard a scary story from an aquaintance that just got certified. His instructor originally planned on doing their open water dive at Secret Beach out here on the Sound. However the waves were too much, so went to the old Ponquogue Bridge in Shinnecock....and not at slack tide


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Old 07/25/2004, 09:27 AM   #30
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Bill, I never dove there but it does not sound too good. I took my check out dives somewhere near Zachs Bay on the south shore. The instructor had to put his mask against mine to see me and he had to hold my hand to see if I was doing the hand signals. If you want to see your depth guage you have to put it in your mask. Like I said, if you can dive here, you can dive anywhere.
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Old 08/03/2004, 01:40 AM   #31
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I moved the "gas management" discussion to another thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=413441


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Old 08/03/2004, 07:49 AM   #32
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Paul,


There is a difference between "Basic Scuba Diver" (PADI Scuba Diver) " and "Open Water Scuba Diver" (PADI Open Water Diver). The PADI Scuba diver allows you dive only under the supervision of a Divemaster, Assistant Instructoror, Instructor, or higher rated professional. The Open Water course is a more comprehensive course. With this certification, one can dive independant from a professional. I am rather surprised this was not made clear in your courses. Regardless, the quality of the course depends very much on the instructor as the content is fairly standard among the major dive organizations. As Tech Diver mentions, you will get more out of the longer courses than the weekend course, especially for the initial cert.

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Old 08/03/2004, 02:38 PM   #33
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David, either you have your courses screwed up or PADI does not know what they are doing. When I was certified in the seventies it was the long 12 week course with everything you could think of including decompression, multiple dives and everything else. My card says "Basic SCUBA Diver. I think that was the only card they had in those days. I have been diving on my own since then off my own boat with my equipment. My wife and daughter had the rediculously short learn nothing course in the Caribbean learning only no decompression diving. Their card says "Open Water Diver". I wrote to PADI about this twice and received no response. Since I do not have to depend on a dive boat or rental gear, I really do not care what it reads. It is just confusing.
Do you have an E mail address for PADI? I will try to ask them again.
Paul


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Old 08/03/2004, 10:52 PM   #34
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I learned to dive in Connecticut and dove around the north east for several years before moving to Florida 14 years ago. I am lucky enough to get to dive year round day and night very often. Of course not everything goes as planed and I have had several "learning" experiances.

Once during a night dive in late November around 11pm I was diving with two friends looking for lobsters. I was alone at the time "this happens often" about 35' deep. There was a nice lobster under a ledge that went deep under the reef. There was about 2' clearance top to bottom between the rocks and it went about 15 or 20 feet in. I was about 2/3rds of the way wiggling in when I relized that I was stuck. I had stired up the sedament and couldn't see that well. I stoped moving and tried to relax as I was close to panic. After I calmed down I was able to unhook my gear and once off I was able to push myself out while draging my gear.

I put my gear on and finished the dive catching a few, but that one got away and left me with a new respect for where I put myself.


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Old 08/04/2004, 01:20 PM   #35
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Paul,



I don't have the courses mixed up. The courses I mentioned are the current courses that PADI offers. I did not realize your cert was from 14 years ago. I contacted PADI myself and got the following response from the training department:

Quote:
Thank you for taking the time to write and for the opportunity to answer your questions.

Prior to standards changes that occurred on September 1, 1986, there were two PADI entry-level certifications: Basic Diver and Open Water Diver. Basic Diver training included most of the performance requirements of Open Water Diver training, but it required only two open-water training dives. This difference meant that some skills, such as emergency swimming ascent and buddy breathing ascent, were not practiced in open water. Because of this, Basic Diver certification came with a restriction requiring the diver and his buddy to dive with an alternate air source. Additionally, Basic Divers are not eligible for most other PADI courses, such as PADI Advanced Open Water Diver, Specialties, etc. as they require a minimum rating of PADI Open Water Diver to enroll.

To upgrade to a PADI Open Water Diver level, the Basic Diver must successfully complete a PADI Scuba Review and the PADI Open Water Diver course training Dives 3 and 4, including performing a controlled emergency swimming ascent. Then submit a PIC for Open Water Diver certification.
The course your wife and daughter took is the initial entry level course that PADI offers that lets them rent equipment and dive without a professional escort (with a 60 foot recommended depth limit). I am not sure how exactly you are defining decompression diving, but the entry level open water courses teach no-stop diving and do not teach staged decompression diving. This type of diving is covered in technical courses. Does that clear things up any?


David



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Old 08/04/2004, 04:27 PM   #36
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David, thank you, that does clear it up somewhat. I did have only two checkout dives. My wife had one. Anyway, so far I have not had any problems when I dive in far off places. I will be going to Tahiti in a few weeks and I have one more dive to take to get my advanced certification. As I said, I don't need it because I usually dive on my own but I may as well get it in case they give me a hard time. Thanks for the information.
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Old 08/04/2004, 04:47 PM   #37
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I am glad I could help out. Your wife should have had 4 checkout dives (plus an optional snorkel) for an Open Water cert, so that sounds a bit odd. Maybe they trained her for a discovery type course and then gave her the full cert? I am glad to hear you are getting the advanced cert, it should keep people from giving you trouble. It sounds like you already have a lot of dives under your belt though, so a your dive log would prove you are experienced. It's a useful cert to get some experience for beginners and some dive operators require it for the more advanced dives. The course could probably have a better name though, as the only way to get "advanced" is to dive a lot "the right way". Anyways, have fun in Tahiti! I am going to the British Virgin Islands next Thursday..you get to see more acros than me

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Old 08/04/2004, 04:58 PM   #38
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David. Have fun in the Virgin Islands. I have never dove in Tahiti, the only Pacific dives I did was in Australia and Hawaii. I was certified in 1978, 26 years ago not 14. When these dive shops in the Caribbean see my C card they just tell me they never saw a card like that before. I am sure it has been redesigned a few times since then. There were not many people diving then which was great because all the ship wrecks here in NY had all the stuff on them that they went down with. It does not even pay to visit them anymore because they are picked clean.
I did the dives for the advanced certification somewhere in the Caribbean off the Windstar ship. It was too rough the last day and we couldn't dive so I will get it in Tahiti. I am going on the same ship.
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Old 08/04/2004, 05:57 PM   #39
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David one more thing. I just remembered. You said that my course should have been no staged decompression dives but this is not the case. My certification taught multiple decompression with staged stops at various depths and repetitive decompression dives. Maybe in 1978 the criteria was different than now. I have no restrictions. My wife can only do no decompression dives. Her charts do not allow for any decompression. Mine do.
How did you contact PADI? Or could you ask them that for me?
Now it's a quest.
Paul.


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Old 08/04/2004, 07:37 PM   #40
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Deep air and outdated tables

[. My certification taught multiple decompression with staged stops at various depths and repetitive decompression dives. Maybe in 1978 the criteria was different than now. I have no restrictions. My wife can only do no decompression dives. Her charts do not allow for any decompression. Mine do.
How did you contact PADI? Or could you ask them that for me?
Now it's a quest.
Paul. [/B][/QUOTE]

It was just with air right? Most of the time when you use the term "stages stops" it means that you are changing gases at the stop.


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Old 08/04/2004, 08:29 PM   #41
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Quote:
My certification taught multiple decompression with staged stops at various depths and repetitive decompression dives. Maybe in 1978 the criteria was different than now.
My only comment would be that yes things have changed tremendously since 1978 regarding deco theory. Not sure what type of diving you do but if you have not done any deco dives recently and plan to in the future I would suggest that you take some updated classes beforehand. Your tables are probably cut based on air and most (not all but almost all) people who do deco diving now use mixed gases.

If your wife and daughter got certified on vacation it does not suprise me much that they did not get much out of the class. I think that the key to any class, no matter what agency, is the instructor. I have been fortunate to work with two very good instructors for my training and I feel that I have probably learned more than most people I have talked to who took comparable classes.


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Old 08/05/2004, 08:08 AM   #42
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Paul,

With respect to decompression diving, current recreational Open Water level courses do not teach staged decompression diving (So it's normal your wife did not learn that). I cannot comment, however, on your 1978 course as I don't know what the standards were. All I know is at least from 1989 (when I got my NAUI Open Water)-now (I am a PADI Instructor (MSDT)) none of the non technical courses I have taken or taught included planned staged decompression dives. So In short, I dunno.
I contacted PADI's training department to ask about your basic diver cert. I am sure PADI has the training requirements for your 1978 course. If you still have questions about your course, you can e-mail PADI's training department ([email protected]).
If you want to do staged deco diving with your wife, there are many specialized courses available that teach this.


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Old 08/05/2004, 03:03 PM   #43
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Scott, Most of my dives (except for a week a year in the tropics) are in New York near the city and they are usually under forty feet. Here at about 18' it is pitch black and the light usually makes it worse because of the sediment. I am out for lobsters, urchins and fluke so I do not have to go too deep. Once in a while someones anchor gets stuck and I will free it.
I am sure my charts are way off now and luckilly I don't have to use them at that depth. I will retire in a couple of years and if I get a place in the Caymans I will have to take a new course just for my own safety. I do have a lot of experience but I would not now do a decompression dive here in NY with my old tables.
Thanks guys for the information and dive safe.
Paul


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Old 08/06/2004, 10:28 PM   #44
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I've been diving about 5 years now. When I dive on vacation I carry a backup emergency flotation device - large safety sausage. It can support me if my BC fails. Also an aftermarket high powered whistle.
Had one issue w/the wife on a scallop dive (Boston) in about 65' of water. She had an older BC and was overweighted. She started to panic, I went down to assist her , holding on to her to use my BC to bring her up until we were in shallower water.
I gave her my computer to hold so I could see the depth as we ascended. She kept letting go of the computer. We were at about 30' when I went to look at my computer & lost my hold on her. She started to sink back down & went into a panic. She pulled out her weights & handed some to me....but since we were going up together it didn't matter who had them....
I grabbed her & inflated my BC, a slightly faster trip on the last 20' to the surface then I liked, but we had been at 20-30' for some time as she undid weight.
No problems after. Bought a new Zeagle before we went diving again.
Since then we have been diving a lot & I have continued my training & advanced to a Master Scuba Diver. She has taken almost as many courses, but not rescue.
It's amazing to me that they teach diving without teaching sharing a reg. It may never happen, but it's good to know.
I understand that they think it can cause more problems...but....
We dive quite a bit, usually in NE we are lucky to have 10-15' of Viz and 60 degree water
So warm water is a welcome relief, but the distance can be farther then you think
Take a test in warm water, good Viz. Take a breath, then try to swim to your buddy before it runs out...in warm water you will be farther away then you think. If your buddy is too far away...you are dead....
I've studied deco diving, if something happened I would be able to guestimate some stops. I have done a few deco dives, nothing major or deep. I carry a 2nd tank in the caribbean on a sling, gives me enough air to do deco.
Training & experience are everything. I've always thought that advancing in training should include "X" number of dives, and "X" number of months.
Since I dive with a 98's, & she has 85's, I always have more air. We have practiced swimming with her on my alternate, keeping 800 psi in her tank, until my runs down to the same. Then we head in to shore. These dives are almost always under 40'. When we are on the same tank we are already heading back to shore in about 20' of water.
Gotta love fresh lobster...6 from the ocean to the pot in 3 hours...


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Old 08/08/2004, 11:53 AM   #45
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Diving a wreak in Lake Michigan last weekend and had a free flow reg at a 160 feet pinched off hose and swiched to my octo and about 30sec. later my octo startes to free flow had to turn my air off . Me and my brother dive alot together so it has no big deal just used his octo and and started up. At 70 feet turned my air back on and everything was fine it had frooze up water temp was 42 at 160. The main thing is to keep cool, alot had to do with I had great instructors when I got my certs. years ago. PS brother has an ice diving reg.


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Old 08/09/2004, 03:14 PM   #46
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One night here in Florida we were diving for lobsters in about 30' of water. That shallow we get a good amount of bottom time. After working up and back on the reef I surfaced to see exactly where the boat was located. It should have been pretty close and just to my west, but it was north north west and almost out of sight! I dove to the bottom and took off in that direction. I find I can travel much faster and farther on the bottom. I only had 800 psi and when that ran out I hit the surface rolled onto my back and started to kick. It took me another 45 min.s to catch the boat. The ancor had been pulled free from the top of the reef and just hung in the deeper water. My friends had no idea what had happened but were glad when I showed up with the boat. Now I never assume that someone else will check the ancor set.


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Old 10/03/2004, 06:06 PM   #47
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Just a few comments from me;

One, never lose sight of your buddy, and always stay within your buddies sight. These buddies can be life savers. I have several times had to buddy breath, for multiple reasons. I will tell the best story at the end of this post.

Two, personally, I hate the integrated weight systems into the BCs. I have had a couple of buddies lose their weights while diving. I had to swim up quickly and help bring them back down. Once got hit on the head by a 3 pounder, looked up, and there was my buddy 5 feet above me. She was holding onto the lip of the ship we were diving. After all said and done, everyone laughed. But could have been very dangerous. And I would have hated losing my best dive buddy.

Three has to do with a previous post. As for being over weighted, what happens if your BC springs a leak? You will drastically start going down. Then in a panic or not, you will fight to go back up, burning your own air at a high rate of speed. This in its self could become very dangerous if you were to the low air point when it happened. But, what if you paniced and dumped your weights because you were sinking? Could spell bad trouble. You should never dive with more weights than you need.

Four; always have a whistle, and even as I do, I also have an air powered horn from my tank. It sounds like a sick duck quacking, but out of the water it can be heard a mile away. Makes a good attention getter while under the water as well. It attaches to the air line to your BC.
Mine looks simular to this one;


Six; always carry a knife, unless the dive boat you are with does not allow it. But it has been my experience that even though they post things like this, they never enforce them. I had a friend die about 20 years ago, and if he could have gotten to his knife, he probably would have lived. The story here is not only to carry a knife, but to keep it properly placed. If you are going to carry one on your leg, keep it to the inside part of your leg. On the outside, it can get bumped and you may lose your knife. I have recovered over 20 knives from dive areas over the years. But, the best position is for one of the smaller knives mounted on your BC. The reason for this, is the reason my friend died. He had a knife on his leg. He was diving for lobster in Florida (I was not with him). He got wrapped up in a net on the bottom. He could not reach his legs they said, and thus could not get to his knife. If he would have had it mounted on his BC, he probably would have survived. Personally, I carry one of the small cheaper knives on my BC, and I carry one on my leg.

Seven; always carry a bottle of ammonia or windex with ammonia, with you when you go diving. This is for those just in case times, if you should happen to get stung by something. Most jellyfish stings, fire coral stings, and many others can be counter acted and the pain stopped, with ammonia. If all else fails, you can even pee on yourself, hey it really works, I have done it after getting stung multiple times by a moon jelly.

Eight; when doing night dives, have at least one of your flashlights with brand new batteries in it. If it is your cheapo back up, so be it, but just make sure they are new.

And there are many more. The main point is, SAFETY FIRST. This is a great recreational hobby, but can be very dangerous. If you do not understand something about your dive, always, always ask questions. After all, by not wanting to look stupid or something, you could end up dead and stupid for not asking more.

Oh, I almost left out the most important thing about diving. After a heavy night out on the town, you want to buddy up with the most hung over person. The reason is, when you get down there, and they chum the water and feed the fish (which does happen a lot to those hung over people), you will be there to see it all. Make sure you have a camera at that time too. Makes great pics for great stories. LOL.


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Old 10/05/2004, 11:23 AM   #48
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OH, I forgot to tell the best story, LOL

I was spear fishing in PCB. We were down about 40 feet when I saw it. I can't remember the name of the fish!!! But anyway, From the top, they look like a shark in the water, and actually many people mistake them for just that. On with the story; It was a 5 footer. It kept coming closer and closer, so I set my pole spear and grabbed onto the tie line, and swoosh! Great shot from 6 foot away, right behind the gill plate, and all the way through. OOPS!! Where did the tie line go? Out of my hands and away through the water, straight down to 90+ feet to the bottom. Fighting this thing with all the edrinalin going. I finally got him secured and checked my time and air. Usually I can do 90 feet for about 40-45 mins with no problems. This time, I was sitting on the bottom, with about 300 lbs air left, and had only been in the water for about 5 mins. I turned to my buddy, and being the experienced diver he was, he could see how hard I was breathing, and immediately handed me his buddy breather. We sat there a few minutes to adjust, and then slowly headed back up to the boat.

Moral to this story; Always keep an eye on your air. You never know how quickly it can go down. You could experience a leak, get excited, or any other thing, but always keep track of your air, after all it is your life we are talking about here!


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Old 10/05/2004, 04:23 PM   #49
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Next week me and my wife are going on a dive vacation to six Tahitian Islands on a sailboat. Hopefully I will not have any horror stories to tell. I have been very lucky for many years.
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Old 10/11/2004, 10:15 PM   #50
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Great I read this just before I go for my checkout dives this weekend at Catalina...


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