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Old 09/11/2000, 03:10 PM   #1
Hitman1
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Just bought myself a Lemon peel angel fish on Satureday. The fish swam around the tank a little, found a hidding place and hardly ever comes out. Even when no one is around. I know this because I snuck around and viewed the tank from a distance. It has not eaten since I placed it into the tank.
This morning when I checked up on him he was completely covered in ICK, at least 50 spots! I soaked some dried food in garlic and feed it, but the fish isn`t eating so that didn`t work. One or two hours later 50% of the ick was gone. So I squeezed some garlic juice into the tank. 1 to 2 hours later the ick was gone! I am sure that he is not cured of it and that it will be back. Tested the tank and all is good. I believe that the source of the stress is that he is scared! He is the only tank inhabitant, besides 4 hermit crabs.

Called the LFS and asked if a cleaner shrimp would clean the ick off the fish and he said maybe it would or maybe it wouldn`t touch it, depends on the shrimp. He suggested I get a Neon Goby, it would definitely clean off the ick. Unfortunately, he did not have any, nor did 3 other LFS!

Tank parameters:

Tank: 29g 2 months old, 20lbs of LR, CC
Temp: 80
SG: 1.023
PH: 8.3
KH: 3.9
Amnonia: 0
Nitrate: 0

Help! Any suggestions.




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Old 09/11/2000, 04:48 PM   #2
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The only 2 methods that have ever worked for me are copper and hyposalinity. Unfortunately you can't do either one of these in a tank with liverock or invertabrates. If you have an extra tank around move the fish and use either one of these methods. If you use copper I suggest cupermine.


Jeff


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Old 09/11/2000, 06:24 PM   #3
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First, make sure you've checked for every source of stress possible [beyond the introduction to new tank]and deal with it.

Second, get the fish eating again. Try live brine shrimp - even fish that are on death's door will usually go for it.

Next, once its eating again, try the garlic juice again. Start 2x per day for the first week, then gradually back off to 3x per week by the end of the 6th week. I know, it sounds like a long time, but that should interupt the free-swimming cycle of the iritans. Worked for me.

Good luck!

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When you think you've read enough....

[This message has been edited by reefworm (edited 09-11-2000).]


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Old 09/11/2000, 06:35 PM   #4
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Reefworm, a couple of questions/comments about your post.

1. Garlic juice; do you mean soak the food or dose the tank with it and how much?

2. I tried brine shrimp, flake and angel formula. No luck! I also have blood worms and formula 1 or 2, any suggestions?

3. I will re-evaluate any stress factors tommorror, but I can not thick of any, besides the fact that the fish looks scared.


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Old 09/11/2000, 06:41 PM   #5
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The Lemon Peel angel is one of the centropyge angels that is VERY!!!! sensitive to copper. Make sure that you use a non-chealated form of copper and do not bring the level up over 10ppm. This level is all that is needed with nonchealated coppers. Cuprix by Aquatronics is what we use and found it to be very stable once the proper level is obtained. Side effects that we have noticed on lemon peels to copper have been temporary blindness, loss of appetite, listlessness and disorientation. If you see any of these occure remove the fish immediately to a clean glass bottom tank and do daily bottom siphonings until all of the ick has disappeared. One thing that I always suggest for fish with any type of fluid absorbing parasite is to offer food that has a high fresh water content to help replenish fluids in the fish. Soaking your foods in clean dechlored fresh water will help to keep them from absorbing salt when they enter the tank.


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Old 09/11/2000, 06:54 PM   #6
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Fish Junction, you can not expect me to use a medication with the following side effects. Thanks for the advice.


Cuprix by Aquatronics is what we use and found it to be very stable once the proper level is obtained. Side effects that we have noticed on lemon peels to copper have been temporary blindness, loss of appetite, listlessness and disorientation.


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Old 09/11/2000, 07:13 PM   #7
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Most medications for pets as well as for us have side effects. Copper is a poison plain and simple, but it has also saved the lives of millions more fish than it has killed and the latter generally being the result of misuse. Every medication can kill your fish if not used properly.



[This message has been edited by Fish Junction (edited 09-11-2000).]


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Old 09/11/2000, 08:03 PM   #8
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Why can life or this increasingly fustrating hobby be nice and simple. You know 2+2=16/8+7-5!!!!


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Old 09/12/2000, 01:59 AM   #9
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Hitman1,
This is not meant as a flame so please don't take it the wrong way. And I know it may not help the situation right now, but it is something to consider for your next fish.

This happens often enough that most people insist on quarantining their fish before moving them to a display tank. I'm not saying that had you quarantined the fish would not have got 'Ich', but if the fish had got sick in your Q-tank, you could have treated it more easily.

As the fish is not eating, the only chance you have for it to recover, in my opinion, is to move it to a Q-tank and treat with hyposalinity. This is going to stress the fish even more, but I think it is your only hope.

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Old 09/12/2000, 06:08 AM   #10
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ATJ, your post sounds like good advice, but I don`t have a QT tank and since the lemon peel is the only tank inhabitant I didn`t think there would be a problem. No other fish to stress it. But I guess things aren`t as simple as they seem. If I could only get him to eat, I am sure he will pull through.


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Old 09/12/2000, 06:31 AM   #11
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Do not get a Cleaner wrasse. They usually starve to death be cause the great majority will not eat anything else.
You don't really have an option of pull the fish out to a hospital tank and treat it. Your only option is to keep the light level down, add a cleaner shrimp or better two of them, feed the fish with live brine shrimp, make ssure the tank condition are good, and give it some time.
Good luck


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Old 09/12/2000, 08:07 AM   #12
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A Q tank can be as simple and inexpensive as a rubermaid container with a sponge filter and heater.

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Old 09/12/2000, 08:14 AM   #13
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I agree with ATJ and Billsreef. Hyposalinity is THE way to go. However, it can only be used without inverts, live rock or live sand. You don't have to spend much on a Qtank. I think you will find that hyposalinity will stress the fish very little if at all. Check you alk and pH daily and use an ACCURATE hydrometer.
Best wishes,
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Old 09/12/2000, 12:32 PM   #14
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Hyposalinity always sounds good but can have its own problems. I have seen so many posts on this topic but have never seen any negatives posted up and I know that if there are as many people using this method as claimed there has to be alot of valuable info out there on which fish did not respond well, how low was the specific gravity dropped to attain results, what was the time frame for the treatment to eradicate the outbreak etc... . One of the biggest problems we had on a commercial level with hyposalinity treatments was that the salinity had to be dropped to .07-.08 to be fully effective. At this level serious problems began to arise with long term tanking of more than 5-7 days on fish such as tangs, butterflies and angels. We found that the parasite Crypt. Irritans adapted fully to sal. levels of .09-.10, which is the bottom of the safe range for alot of species of fish, inside of 12 weeks on several occasions. I discontinued use of hypo. sal. when we also determined that therapeutic levels of copper increased from a level of .10ppm copper sulfate at 1.023 specific grav. to over .22ppm copper sulfate at 1.010 specific grav. This high level of nonchealated copper sulfate is very dangerous for fish but was necessary to effect a kill factor of the parasites that was high enough to stop the massive outbreaks. I was also amazed at the speed with which the outbreaks progressed at a low salinity compared to a full blown outbreak at higher salinities.

I realize that our findings may differ somewhat from that of a hobbyist in a quarinteen or display tank because of the regular additions of new wild collected fish being added to the systems in a commercial operation, but they cant be 100% different.

I would be extremely interested in hearing about any conclusions any of you have drawn in your experiences with hyposalinty and parasite eradication and or adaptation.

Sorry to stray from the thread topic.


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Old 09/12/2000, 11:41 PM   #15
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Sorry, I have too strongly disagree with raising the water temp to 86 as a treatment for Ich. For one thing, this is the optimal temperature for this parasite to reproduce. This method is a treatment that can be used for freshwater Ick, but the two parasites are not related. I think you are asking for trouble with all the complications and stress such a temperature change would cause. This will make a mess out of the fish's blood chemistry including causing a drop in the blood pH.
BTW, I may have forgotten to mention that a specific gravity of 1.009 is what I recommend as treatment rather than 1.010. Rmemeber that specific gravity is temperature dependent but salinity is not.
Best wishes,
Terry B

[This message has been edited by Terry B (edited 09-13-2000).]


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Old 09/12/2000, 11:53 PM   #16
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Old 09/13/2000, 01:00 AM   #17
Terry B
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Hi Fish Junction,
What exactly what the problems hyposalinity that you are talking about? Yes there been many posts in the last couple years about people using hyposalinity and success rate has been phenomenal. The reason you don't see in a lot of posts about fish that don't tolerate a salinity of 14 to 16 parts per thousand is because most bony reef fish do very well. The studies that have been done suggest that the salinity must be maintained at 16 parts per thousand or less for the treatment to the effective. Cryptocaryon irritans can excyst (hatch) when the salinity gets any higher. The most widely accepted time frame for treatment is three weeks with fish. I see nothing wrong with extending therapy for longer It takes a longer period time to rid the aquarium of this parasite if the salinity is left natural levels because it can still hatch.
There are several precautions and restrictions for using hyposalinity correctly. First, never use it in the presence of invertebrates, live rock or live sand. Most invertebrates are osmoconformers, so their internal salinity varies with that of the surrounding water. Generally invertebrates do not tolerate wide fluctuations in salinity so they should not be exposed to levels low enough to effectively treat Cryptocaryon irritans. The microflora and microfauna that live on and in live sand and live rock are also damaged by exposure to a salinity this low. Second, elasmobranches, such as shark and rayfish, have a different osmoregulatory strategy than bony reef fish so they cannot be treated with this method. Third, the salinity and pH must be checked daily. Allowing the salinity to rise even slightly during treatment could result in re-infection. The alkalinity and pH will tend to fall in diluted saltwater, so these parameters should be tested frequently and adjusted as needed. I prefer to use Seachem’s Reef Builder™ to maintain the alkalinity and pH. Fourth, negative reactions to this therapy are uncommon with bony reef fish, but watch for signals such as hyperactivity, aggressive behavior, faded colors or difficulty swimming. I have personally kept a wide assortment of reef fish at a specific gravity of 1.010 for a period of three months at a time without any apparent ill effects. However, each fish should be monitored closely every day. The salinity can be lowered to 16 ppt indefinitely (Cheung, 1979.), but I do not recommend it on a permanent basis. There may be some variance in the ability to adapt between species, size of the fish or other factors. Fifth, many hydrometers are inaccurate or calculated for temperatures lower than a reef aquarium should be kept. An inaccurate reading during therapy could easily lead to treatment being ineffective. Many aquarists have reported swing arm type hydrometers to be off by several points when tested against a refractometer or an accurate glass hydrometer. Small glass hydrometers are often inaccurate as well.
I am curious to known what you measured the specific gravity with and what the water temperature of the tank was. According to Doctors Colorni, Chueng, and Noga along with the the reports in the scientific journals 16 parts per thousand or less low enough. You are correct that we can expect problems if we take the external salinity below that which is found in the internal fluids of fish. This is usually 11 parts per thousand or approximately a specific gravity of 1.008 at 78 degrees Fahrenheit. I have not seen any evidence to support the contention that Cryptocaryon irritans can adapt to such low salinities. Quite to the contrary, they cannot hatch from the tomont stage. If you saw an acceleration of the life-cycle at reduced salinities then I must wonder if you confirmed the diagnoses will use of a microscope. Uronema thrives at low salinties, Crypt. In my opinion, does not.
I have never advocated combining hyposalinity with copper therapy. I believe the two are a dangerous combination. The reason you are seeing more free copper in the water may have more to do with low pH and alkalinity rather than salinity. The pH and alkalinity tend to fall in diluted seawater. For this reason, I recommend testing these levels on a daily basis and adding a booster as needed.
HTH,
Terry B

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Old 09/13/2000, 05:10 AM   #18
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hitman,
Just to make it clear: Garlic oil does NOT work!
I know the flames are coming, but it is clear from my experience that Garlic does not do a damn thing for ICH.
The spots are ALWAYS the worst early in the morning and tend to drop of during the day. This is what you observed.
You might try raising the temp to 86 and keeping it there for a couple weeks.
This has worked well for myself in the past, although it seems in my tank to be loosing its efficacy. I wonder if the Ich species in my tank have adapted to the higher temp?
At any rate, if you have never tried this before in this tank, it will probably work this time.
Temp needs to be 86 night and day. Do not let it drop at night!
It would help if the fish were eating as proper nutrition goes a long way to help fish survive this disease.
Try a small cherrystone clam from the food store to see if you can get some food in him.

John


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Old 09/13/2000, 12:47 PM   #19
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All my fish are net caught for the store
they are in natural systems with proper salinity

they DO NOT get sick

hyposalinity can work but is stressful to the fish to a degree
i've stressed out and killed many a fish by stressing them out more
good foods and a healthy system is your best bet

most likely this fishis already sick from chemical exposure and stressing it even more is not really a good idea
IMO IME




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Old 09/13/2000, 07:12 PM   #20
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Fish Junction,
I too work with comercial holding systems and have used hyposalinty numerous times in those systems. So far with a specific gravity of 1.009-1.010 at 78F I have a 100% sucess rate with crypt. I do have two holding systems and there for can isolate new arrivals and healthy fish from the ones under treatment. Also I find it best to treat without the use of copper along with hyposalinity unless rigorous attention is paid to the pH and alkalinity as this drastically affects the toxicity of copper.

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Old 09/13/2000, 08:13 PM   #21
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TerryB,
Where did you get the data on optimal ICH reproduction temps?
Are you sure you are not thinking of odinium?
I came across a reference in one of Frank Hoffs books (clownfish rearing one) about how they never have ICH problems in the summer when the growout tanks pass 85 degrees.
I thought I would give it a try and BOOM it worked wonders the first 3-4 times I tried it over the course of a couple years.
As I said the last time I used it did not seem to work as well (lost 1 fish) and the ICH lasted longer. First time the ICH symptoms were completely gone in 3 days!
I am a pharmacist and have access to all kinds of different drugs. I have tried several treatments in the reef tank environment and none have worked as well as temp. elevation for me.
If you or anyone else has a REEF SAFE remedy which actually works, I am more than willing to try that as well. Hyposalinity is not one of them as it will certainly will a great many inverts in a reef tank. Neither is garlic, Kick-Ich, RX-P, etc. etc.
I've had the same 135 reef set up for 9 years and I am not about to tear the rockwork down to catch a fish.

John


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Old 09/13/2000, 11:08 PM   #22
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You'll need to keep the tank empty for at least a month to ensure the parasites die/become dormant.

Sorry for your loss.

Matty


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Old 09/14/2000, 01:16 AM   #23
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Hi John,
One place you can find the imformation about the optimal temperature for Cryptocaryon irritans to reproduce is in Dr. Edward Noga's book. I can't recall the name of the book at the moment and I don't feel like going out to my car to get it right now. I think it is called "Fish Disease and Diagnosis." It is probably available through Barnesandnoble.com, Amazon.com, or Borders.com. Just do a search for Dr. Edward Noga. Dr Noga is recognized by many as one of the leading aquatic medicine specialist in the world.
There are probably a dozen treatments that are claimed to cure Ich. Copper and Hyposalinity are the only two scientically tested methods that have proven to be consistantly reliable. I have to disagree that feeding garlic does not work. There are just far too many people now that have had success with it to discount it. I am not saying that it is as effective as copper or hyposalinity, but it still seems to have a good success rate. So far feeding garlic to the fish is the only REEF SAFE method that shows any real promise.
Best wishes,
Terry B


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Old 09/14/2000, 03:23 AM   #24
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I just want to note that I very successfully treated my fish last year with hyposalinity thanks to Terryb. The treatment worked great. Just my experience, surely not a paper on 1000 cases, but I was impressed and it is my treatment of choise. Not one white spot on any of my fish in the past 10 months.

Scott


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Old 09/14/2000, 09:08 AM   #25
Hitman1
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Thanks for all the posts, bought a srimp on Tuesday on my way back from work. The fish had no ick at the time, but did not look good and still not eating. Wednesday morning fish enter fish heaven... My tank is now empty again and I am considering my options...


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