No one can figure this out so far........

[luv2dive]

No one can tell me what is going on with my reef tank. This is a puzzle for the very experienced reefer! I have talked to 4 of the LFS here, other online people, very knowledgable friends and everyone does not know what the problem is. I have 180 gal reef which is mostly a fish only tank now. it's been up for about 3 years. I have lost all of the corals, clams, and snails. The fish and crabs are doing great and have never had a problem. The parametrs are as follows: temp-77, Sg-1.025, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 40 nitrates, calcium 500 ( I know it's a bit high), phosphates .2, and Ph 8.4. There are 6- 72" VHO lights and 4 250 watt mh lights. The water is clear and the 30 gal sump is clean. I have been doing 1/3 water changes every week for 3 weeks. I just put a large turbo snail in yesterday (after acclamating him) to see if it was better and he is totally still on the bottom today. He is still alive but not moving at all. I have a small star pollop rock and a clam that has been in for a week and they seem to be doing ok so far. Why don't the snails last a day? I'm at a loss on what to check or what to do.

For every possible reason mentioned I have an answer why it isn't that problem. Here are some of them.

1. Lighting problems................I have enough light, 9 watts per gal, (maybe too much) why would any light, more or less, kill the snails? And is there such a thing as too much light for corals?

2. Bad water from the RO/DI (heavy metals or cloramine)......... I test it myself but also took samples of my house water (which is soft) and a RO/DI water sample to a lab and they said it was very good. 001 tds, no metals or chemicals

3. Protein skimmer not keeping up......... I see crud in the collection but I have been doing so many water changes there isn't much there. Would that kill snails?

4. Something died and poisened the entire tank.................like what? What would have been that contaminated? I didn't have anything die but a sea slug and that was over a year ago.

5. Bad bacteria of some unknown origin................ya right, what kind........give me an example?

6. Pumps leaking copper in the sump...........I tested for copper twice and it was negitive.

7. Stray voltage in the water............this may have some merit. I was told it wouldn't bother fish because they swim around and don't touch the glass or rock. This sounds reasonable. Since the corals and snails are always touching something, they don't like it. So I tested the water with a Fluke meter. I tested it a bunch of ways but I'm not sure if its the right way. I put both probes in the tank water and checked ac voltage and it read 3 volts. The sump read the same. Then I put one probe in the hot side of an outlet and the other on the tank and unplugged the heater/pump/skimmer pump seperately and they changed about 10 volts each. But then I checked it again and it wasn't consistant. I also unplugged everything from the wall and found it to be less than a regular glass of water. If anyone knows the correct way to check it please let me know.

Can anyone help me please? Any thoughts or suggestions will be helpfull no matter what they are.

[Nanook]

Nitrates=40 is unacceptable for a reef tank.

[Nanook]

How many pounds of liverock do you have, are you using bioballs??

Also, you might need to help export nutrients with macroalgae in a refugium.

dave

[lscaquarium]

i personally dont think nitrates (NO3)at 40 is going to kill everything ,
but def. something you want to work on.

scenario sounds like copper, but still it wont kill a snail dead in 24hrs. unless its real high.

what type of test kit are you using for the trates? are you measuring nitrogen nitrate or N03? cause if its nitrogen nitrate
that tank is going to start becomming radioactive real soon.

Chris

[tsquad]

.2 PO4 is high.

[luv2dive]

The only reason the nitrates are this high now (I think) is because I removed the rock and moved it around. I had it out for a short time a week ago but put it back in right away. Usually the trates are very low and they were when all my trouble started. Please look at my gallery to see the amount of live rock and sand I have......it's allot! One of the pictures is when the tank was flurishing.

Dave, I was using bio balls but took them out about a week ago because some people said it was a nitrate factory and I didn't need them with all the rock and sand I have. I also had a refugium but removed it as well because I didn't think it was doing me any good and the problems started when I installed it. I know it sounds crazy but it's true. I have let the system sit for about 8 months now just doing the water changes and not adding any live stock. The fish are doing great as always. About a week ago I added a clam and a small pollop rock to see how they would do. I just now looked at them and the clam is a swollen blue and wide open and all of the star fingers are exposed and bright. The snail I put in yesterday is still alive but in the same spot. I'm sorry to say I'm using him as a test and have it on its side in the front against the glass so I can watch it. It comes out just a little then pops back in. He isn't attached to the glass just resting on its side, but still moving a little, very little.

Chris, I have checked for copper twice in the last 2 days and have come up neg. I use the dip strips for testing and they have always worked for me before. And I'm not sure what the difference is between nitrogen nitrate and NO3? I'm not as advanced as you guys.

Please continue to help because I do appriciate it! I really don't want to start all over again from scratch.

[lscaquarium]

N03 is about 1/4 as potent as nitrogen nitrate, you saying your not advanced pretty much tells me your testing N03, not that advanced people test nitrogen nitrate either. just not as common as N03 tests.

have a hydrometer thats just WAY off?
sorry couldnt help

Chris

[mbbuna]

1. yes you can have too much light for corals. but more importantly what K light do you have and how do you acclimate the corals to it?

2.What did you have them test for ? Can you post the analysis ?What do you test for and what test kits do you use?

3.Even freshly made water will make crude,and with all these water changes i have to question why you still have very high Nitrates.Back to Q#2

4.List everything that you've had in the tank that died.is it only a sea slug a year ago, or a bunch of clams, snails and corals?

5.?

6.do you have any copper or brass fittings anywhere close to the tank?

7.inless your snails,corals,clams can reach out of the tank and touch the ground then they arnt grounded, just like your fish.any stray voltage will follow the path of least resistance. Glass isn't very conductive so anything resting on the bottom(or glass) is out.

[wjhuie]

Did you remove all the bio balls at once

[tsquad]

I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as nitrogen nitrate...do you have a link? Sounds interesting.

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by wjhuie
Did you remove all the bio balls at once

it sounds like he's made a bunch of changes lately

[wjhuie]

Your nitrates may be so high because By removeing all of the bioballs at once you have gotten rid of alot of benifical bacteria at one time , and the rest of your biological filtration is not able to process that much nitrate It is recommended that you remove your bio balls one at a time.

[tjh]

check water for copper

[jallard]

get a different copper test kit.........sounds like copper

[luv2dive]

Chris, I use a refractometer so it should be on the money, Right?

mbbuna, I had them test the RO/DI to make sure my TDS was working. They said if there was any meatals in the water this would show it. And the house water is soft so it isnt screwed up going in to the RO/DI unit. I use the dip sticks and test for ammonia, trites, trates, ph, hardness, and using drip tests for copper (which was neg), phosphates, and calcium. As far as what died........2 clams, galaxia, huge hammer, zenias, 3 different kinds of mushrooms, 3 sand stars, one blue/one orange linkia stars, and some other ones I forgot. I have put some pics in my gallery for you to look at when it was flurishing. And no copper or brass fittings anywhere, just plastic.

wj, yes, I took all the balls out at once but it was only a few weeks ago. Everything has been gone for 8 months or so.

jallard, I have been doing so many water changes, even if my copper test kit is reading false, wouldn't things survive? And if there is copper, where did it come from and can I ever get it out of the tank?

And I am going to take a sample to the LFS and test for copper, and trates just to make sure my readings are not false.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Please keep this thread going and I might get it fixed!

[Hobster]

Have you ever treated the tank with any kind of chemicals?
Do you use activated carbon on a regular basis?

[luv2dive]

Hobster

I replace the charcoal every week along with the 1/3 water change. I have not used any chemicals in the last year at least and I have done so many water changes any chemical should be gone by now I would think. The only chemical I used was some no-ich for marine tanks and that was over 2 years ago.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Copper test kits are fine for testing water to treat fish, but they do not test low enough to prove water is acceptable to inverts. I too think a poison like copper (or something else) is reasonably likely. It is also possible that one or more of the test kits is not giving useful values. Ammonia, for example.

One suggestion is to set up a 10 gallon QT tank with new artificial salt water and maybe some new live rock (possibly just borrowed from someone) and see if you can keep a snail or crab in it.

Assuming that works, swap in your current tank water and possibly some existing live rock and see what happens. That will show it it is a water problem, or something else.

I had them test the RO/DI to make sure my TDS was working.

Do you know exactly what they found? Different people may have different opinions on what that means.

[luv2dive]

Randy,

What they told me was my TDS meter was reading correct. No metals and cloramine from th RO/DI. That's all they said. And that's the answer I was hoping for. The water is good. And could it be a water problem if I have been doing so many water changes?

[mtbetta]

I had a similar problem for about a year. I couldn't keep any types of snail alive. I assumed it was copper but never did find any with a test. Are you on a well? I started to wonder if there were pesticides or herbicides in the water since I am on a well. With "the war on weeds" that Montana has I'm sure some of it makes it's way to the water. I don't know if this is a possibility but always wondered, I'm sure Randy would know. I have radon in my basement and someone told me that this can also show up in water, Don't know if that is true either. I stopped looking for answers when the problem just seemed to stop, hopefully it won't return.
jerry

[luv2dive]

jerry, I live in the city and have city water and like I said I use ro/di water which tests fine. What gets me is the clam and star polop rock is doing good so far for about 2 weeks now. The snail is alive but not moving much at all. I just don't get it.

[luv2dive]

Randy,

Is there a test that can tell me if there is just traces of copper?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you have a TDS meter and it was reading 0 ppm on the RO/DI water?


And could it be a water problem if I have been doing so many water changes?


How many of what percentage? Even 10 ten percent changes would not solve a significant poison problem.

Is there a test that can tell me if there is just traces of copper?

You can find a lab to do low levels of copper. I've never used them, but ENC claims to be able to do it for reefers:

www.enclabs.com

[Freed]

If your calcium is 500, which is way high, I would bet your alk is way low. Could this be a problem? I don't know if low alk will kill anything but it may be something to look into.

[Goneracin]

if this started about 8 months ago...... did something in the house change? how close is the tank to your bathroom? kitchen? did your wife change cleaning products, hairspray? if the air intake for your skimmer is close to anything like that could that be the problem? i think i might be better to find what changed 8 months ago. lighting did you add a lot at once? if your tank did great for 3 years then died is the sandbed full of toxins? (if you have one) with all the nitrate and phosphate you have do you have a bad algae problem? and are all your tests the same after your water changes as they were when you started or, is that what they are now? if thtas your readings after 3 weeks of 1/3 changes your water must have been real bad.

Marty