Replacing substrate -- need advice

lakee911 · 12/18/2006, 06:25 AM

In attempt to mitigate the downward spiral of my tank due to excessive nutrients, I would like to replace my substrate in the coming weeks.

(FYI, I've reduced the GHA to about 25% of what it was at its high point, but have had some new growth on the CC. Seems individual granules of the crushed coral are getting cyano or dinos and then getting covered with GHA. I've picked them out to no avail....)

I'm thinking of using the quikcrete white silica sand or maybe some type of sandblasting sand. I want to go DSB, so I'm thinking I need about 250LB for my 120 (60"x18" footprint). Cost is an issue.

Should I replace the CC in halves or thirds?

Should I rinse the sand or not? If I don't, I won't lose the fines and I think it'll be easier to add, pour down a pipe to the bottom. It'll probably still be cloudier than all get out, but is that ok? I don't think I can rinse 250 LB of sand and actually get it clean.

Should I remove fish? I'd like to keep them in the tank as they're hard to catch and its kind of traumatic chasing them around and putting them in buckets.

Should I leave LR in the tank and pile up on the other side or put them in a tote or bin out of the tank?

I plan on siphoning out the CC. Should I filter the water (filter socks, polypads, etc) and put back in the tank or dump it all? It's going to require a pretty hefy reserve of water to replace it all. What to do with the old CC? Dump it out back or something?

Thx
Jason

hollback · 12/18/2006, 07:05 AM

How long has your system been set up? depending on the age of your tank, I don't know if pulling your sand is the answer to your nutrient problem. Have you explored all other avenues?

lakee911 · 12/18/2006, 07:47 AM

Well not replacing sand, replacing Crushed Coral with sand. The tank has been set up since Feb 05 and had been moved in Dec 05. Before moving tap water was used along w/ crappy equipment. So, it's been up for about a year using RO/DI and some better equipment.

I've changed water like no other. No effect on the tank--so it seems. Lately about 25Gal every other week. Phosphates test really low (running Phosband 24/7) to the point that it might be limiting my macro growth. My nitrates are never less than about 20. I don't over feed, if anything underfeed--and I don't want to keep that up.

I don't like the CC and I'm tired of vacuuming it. I want to get some critters to keep it clean and I want the sand bed to support lots of other life (like that of my DSP in my sump).

I'm really scared I'll crash the tank or cause havoc to break loose. I think it needs done, but I want to minimize the amount of time I spend doing the change and maxamize the comfort of fish in the tank.

Thx
Jason
Thanks

tye_c · 12/18/2006, 05:56 PM

It might be easier to take everything out and put it in Rubbermaid tubs then remove all the CC. That's how I did it a few years ago. You might think about a shallow sand bed, otherwise you will end up replacing the DSB in a few years.

AcroSteve · 12/18/2006, 06:05 PM

Vacuum out about 1/4 of the CC over the course of a few days and then replace it with sand. Wait a couple of weeks or so and do another 1/4... and so on.

I would say use carribsea araganite sand, but I think they had a little problem recently.

Personally, I would not use anything other than araganite

thebrian · 12/18/2006, 07:23 PM

You could see if you could find any pulverized limestone at a Home Depot locally. Its cheap, and people are comparing it to the fabled southdown (allthough it's believed it's not quite THAT good). It's sold under the Pavestone brand, I believe at Home Depot, although it could be Lowes. I only speak from what I have read, and I have not seen it in person.

ronc98 · 12/18/2006, 07:30 PM

I removed my sand bout six months ago to eliminate my nutrient sink. I ended up yanking all the live rock putting it in a rubber maid beside the tank pulling the sand then putting the rock back in without sand. I do not plan on staying barebottom however I have noticed alot of detrius coming from the rock as well and with a barebottom tank I can suck off the remaining nutrients. Sooner or later I will just add sand back to the tank.

szwab · 12/18/2006, 07:41 PM

for nitrates larger % water chancges would be more effective than 25%. I would also reccomend removing livestock and rock. The cloud you are going to create is going to be very intense in a closed system. If you have a DSB in your sump you would probably be ok to just remove it all at once.

lakee911 · 12/19/2006, 05:28 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions! I've got some questions and other points for discussion.....

Quote:

Originally posted by tye_c
It might be easier to take everything out and put it in Rubbermaid tubs then remove all the CC. That's how I did it a few years ago. You might think about a shallow sand bed, otherwise you will end up replacing the DSB in a few years.

How much rock did you have? If remove all the CC at once, what are the risks? I would think that the only downside would be high nitrates? Any risk of crashing? I wouldn't be increasing the bioload, but I would be decreasing the beneficial "bugs." I think the DSB topic is highly debatable, but I do not want to turn this into a discussion about that!

Quote:

Originally posted by AcroSteve
Vacuum out about 1/4 of the CC over the course of a few days and then replace it with sand. Wait a couple of weeks or so and do another 1/4... and so on.

I would say use carribsea araganite sand, but I think they had a little problem recently.

Personally, I would not use anything other than araganite

Do you think its ok to do this with livestock and rock? Why the few week waiting? Few days maybe? This might be safest.

Quote:

Originally posted by thebrian
You could see if you could find any pulverized limestone at a Home Depot locally. Its cheap, and people are comparing it to the fabled southdown (allthough it's believed it's not quite THAT good). It's sold under the Pavestone brand, I believe at Home Depot, although it could be Lowes. I only speak from what I have read, and I have not seen it in person.

I've read about that and I considered it, but its going to be cloudy as all get out! I'd consider it in a new tank only and I think it's kind of lumpy too, no? Have you tired it?

Quote:

Originally posted by ronc98
I removed my sand bout six months ago to eliminate my nutrient sink. I ended up yanking all the live rock putting it in a rubber maid beside the tank pulling the sand then putting the rock back in without sand. I do not plan on staying barebottom however I have noticed alot of detrius coming from the rock as well and with a barebottom tank I can suck off the remaining nutrients. Sooner or later I will just add sand back to the tank.

I THINK my rock is pretty clean, but probably not as clean as I think.

Mustn't be THAT clean if I have some GHA... How long have you been BB? Do you have a procedure for adding sand back in? Why do you think, in your opinion did your sandbed go south?

Quote:

Originally posted by szwab
for nitrates larger % water chancges would be more effective than 25%. I would also reccomend removing livestock and rock. The cloud you are going to create is going to be very intense in a closed system. If you have a DSB in your sump you would probably be ok to just remove it all at once.

I had done a very signifigant water change the other week. It might have been 25-30%, IIRC. I did some other cleaning and some rockscaping work too. Couple days later had a big bacteria bloom! Don't know the real cause, could have been from rockscaping (probably not, no new rock) or maybe from pH mismatch in water change (no proof, just know it was a little low (7.9-8) aftewards--then again I can't read those color gradients to save my life. I would actually be very happy if I could have one of those systems that only required very minimum water changes.

My sump/refugium is only a 20Gal long. Half and half. So, we're looking at about 7Gal (max) refugium and maybe 4 inches of sand. I'd guesstimate 12"x12"x4" Is that enough for the whole tank?

The CC is doing something....at some point of removal I will see something happen. Question is, how much? Theoritically speaking, one of three things would happen:
1. Nitrites go up: Loss of beneficial bugs (bad), 2. Nitrate goes up: Loss of denitrifying bacteria (probably not gonna happen but not so bad as 1.), 3. Nitrates go down: Loss of nutrient sink. I would wager on 1 or 3.

Last night I vacummed off the top of the CC (riding of GHA) I probably only removed about 3 cups of it. I *may* remove a very small portion tonight and experiment with adding a little sand to see how cloudy it is or isn't. Depend on Christmas shopping and wrapping schedule I suppose...

Thanks
Jason

ronc98 · 12/19/2006, 06:10 AM

I had a shallow sand bed that was only about two inches deep. It turned into a nutrient sink because my a bad decision on my closed loop intake. I put them both of my returns under the rock pile. This in effect causes all the detrius to be sucked under the rocks due to the current. Everything under the rocks was black fish poop. The reason I did not put anymore sand in to be honest as I had not decided on what I wanted. I love the look of sand however I started liking the barebottom look. I have a large amount of zoos attached to the bottom of my tank now and good coverage of coraline. I might just keep it this way.

I am running a DSB but it is remote in my 150 gallon sump along with my macro.

lakee911 · 12/19/2006, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ronc98
I love the look of sand however I started liking the barebottom look.

He's becoming one of them!

Don't do it man....just don't do it! Back away from the barebottom! Back away!

ronc98 · 12/19/2006, 07:33 AM

Funny, perhaps I should have said I like it better then my older nutrient sink. It is all relative!

asnatlas · 12/19/2006, 09:36 AM

ronc98, Do you have any fish that needed a sandbed ?? If so are they still in the tank, or did you move them to your other tank??

lakee911 · 12/19/2006, 10:02 AM

Heheh

Only playing, Ronc.

12/18/2006, 06:25 AM	#1
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 2,010	Replacing substrate -- need advice In attempt to mitigate the downward spiral of my tank due to excessive nutrients, I would like to replace my substrate in the coming weeks. (FYI, I've reduced the GHA to about 25% of what it was at its high point, but have had some new growth on the CC. Seems individual granules of the crushed coral are getting cyano or dinos and then getting covered with GHA. I've picked them out to no avail....) I'm thinking of using the quikcrete white silica sand or maybe some type of sandblasting sand. I want to go DSB, so I'm thinking I need about 250LB for my 120 (60"x18" footprint). Cost is an issue. Should I replace the CC in halves or thirds? Should I rinse the sand or not? If I don't, I won't lose the fines and I think it'll be easier to add, pour down a pipe to the bottom. It'll probably still be cloudier than all get out, but is that ok? I don't think I can rinse 250 LB of sand and actually get it clean. Should I remove fish? I'd like to keep them in the tank as they're hard to catch and its kind of traumatic chasing them around and putting them in buckets. Should I leave LR in the tank and pile up on the other side or put them in a tote or bin out of the tank? I plan on siphoning out the CC. Should I filter the water (filter socks, polypads, etc) and put back in the tank or dump it all? It's going to require a pretty hefy reserve of water to replace it all. What to do with the old CC? Dump it out back or something? Thx Jason

12/18/2006, 07:05 AM	#2
hollback Team RC Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 3,343	How long has your system been set up? depending on the age of your tank, I don't know if pulling your sand is the answer to your nutrient problem. Have you explored all other avenues? __________________ Jason Μολὼν λαβέ "Dressed up like plankton, sucked in by baleen." Current Tank Info: 40,000 Tablespoons

12/18/2006, 05:56 PM	#4
tye_c Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Mansfield,Ohio Posts: 878	It might be easier to take everything out and put it in Rubbermaid tubs then remove all the CC. That's how I did it a few years ago. You might think about a shallow sand bed, otherwise you will end up replacing the DSB in a few years. __________________ Tye CORA Member Current Tank Info: For Sale:180g AGA RR, 55g refugium

12/18/2006, 06:05 PM	#5
AcroSteve Make my Funk a P-Funk Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Electric Avenue Posts: 5,139	Vacuum out about 1/4 of the CC over the course of a few days and then replace it with sand. Wait a couple of weeks or so and do another 1/4... and so on. I would say use carribsea araganite sand, but I think they had a little problem recently. Personally, I would not use anything other than araganite __________________ **************** "Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard, grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em." -- The Webb Wilder Credo -- don't go ninjin' nobody that don't need ninjin'! Current Tank Info: 220g custom plywood. SPS heavy with Sequence Hammerhead return with 4-Way OM. Tunze 6100, 6200 and Wavebox. 5000btu DIY Chiller. Lighting is 10K mh 250W / VHO Actinic Skimer - H&S A200-2x1260

12/18/2006, 07:30 PM	#7
ronc98 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Columbus Posts: 1,329	I removed my sand bout six months ago to eliminate my nutrient sink. I ended up yanking all the live rock putting it in a rubber maid beside the tank pulling the sand then putting the rock back in without sand. I do not plan on staying barebottom however I have noticed alot of detrius coming from the rock as well and with a barebottom tank I can suck off the remaining nutrients. Sooner or later I will just add sand back to the tank. __________________ "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into" -> Jonathan Swift Current Tank Info: 26 foot sailboat who needs a tank!

12/18/2006, 07:47 AM	#3
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 2,010	Well not replacing sand, replacing Crushed Coral with sand. The tank has been set up since Feb 05 and had been moved in Dec 05. Before moving tap water was used along w/ crappy equipment. So, it's been up for about a year using RO/DI and some better equipment. I've changed water like no other. No effect on the tank--so it seems. Lately about 25Gal every other week. Phosphates test really low (running Phosband 24/7) to the point that it might be limiting my macro growth. My nitrates are never less than about 20. I don't over feed, if anything underfeed--and I don't want to keep that up. I don't like the CC and I'm tired of vacuuming it. I want to get some critters to keep it clean and I want the sand bed to support lots of other life (like that of my DSP in my sump). I'm really scared I'll crash the tank or cause havoc to break loose. I think it needs done, but I want to minimize the amount of time I spend doing the change and maxamize the comfort of fish in the tank. Thx Jason Thanks

12/18/2006, 07:23 PM	#6
thebrian Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,174	You could see if you could find any pulverized limestone at a Home Depot locally. Its cheap, and people are comparing it to the fabled southdown (allthough it's believed it's not quite THAT good). It's sold under the Pavestone brand, I believe at Home Depot, although it could be Lowes. I only speak from what I have read, and I have not seen it in person.

12/18/2006, 07:41 PM	#8
szwab RC Mod Join Date: May 2002 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 15,225	for nitrates larger % water chancges would be more effective than 25%. I would also reccomend removing livestock and rock. The cloud you are going to create is going to be very intense in a closed system. If you have a DSB in your sump you would probably be ok to just remove it all at once. __________________ Mark "I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more cowbell" ~ Christopher Walken Current Tank Info: AGE 240 Flatback Hex

12/19/2006, 06:10 AM	#10
ronc98 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Columbus Posts: 1,329	I had a shallow sand bed that was only about two inches deep. It turned into a nutrient sink because my a bad decision on my closed loop intake. I put them both of my returns under the rock pile. This in effect causes all the detrius to be sucked under the rocks due to the current. Everything under the rocks was black fish poop. The reason I did not put anymore sand in to be honest as I had not decided on what I wanted. I love the look of sand however I started liking the barebottom look. I have a large amount of zoos attached to the bottom of my tank now and good coverage of coraline. I might just keep it this way. I am running a DSB but it is remote in my 150 gallon sump along with my macro. __________________ "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into" -> Jonathan Swift Current Tank Info: 26 foot sailboat who needs a tank!

12/19/2006, 07:33 AM	#12
ronc98 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Columbus Posts: 1,329	Funny, perhaps I should have said I like it better then my older nutrient sink. It is all relative! __________________ "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into" -> Jonathan Swift Current Tank Info: 26 foot sailboat who needs a tank!

12/19/2006, 09:36 AM	#13
asnatlas Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waukee, IA Posts: 4,239	ronc98, Do you have any fish that needed a sandbed ?? If so are they still in the tank, or did you move them to your other tank?? __________________ Shawn

12/19/2006, 10:02 AM	#14
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 2,010	Heheh Only playing, Ronc.