Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > Marine Fish Forums > Fish Disease Treatment
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 11/28/2007, 12:54 PM   #1
cthetoy
Registered Member
 
cthetoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 1,890
Mysterious fish deaths are more common now (Flukes)

I’m starting this thread because over the past year I lost numerous of new fish for unexplained reasons. Until a few months ago I found that my fish were not dying of ich or velvet but FLUKES! Flukes are so common that I can even spot fish at the LFS that has symptoms of flukes.

Just a warning for anyone buying new fish from any LFS that a lot of fish carries flukes now. It’s more common in small and large Angels but I’ve seen them in small butterflies as well. I’m not sure about tangs since I haven’t purchase any of them the past year.

The obvious symptoms:

1) Fish twitching the head side to side once in a while like if wanted to shake something off his head.

2) Discolored blotches of skin (Most people think this is velvet or some bacterial infection and misdiagnose it with antibiotics)

3) Frayed fins or tail.

4) Sudden loss of appetite. Fish was fine yesterday but today it’s not eating at all.

5) Cloudy eye(s)

6) Rapid breathing

If you can catch it early the fish will recover fine. If not they will never recover and stop eating completely. In my experience if I caught it after it stops eating for 3 days there’s a chance it will recover. Beyond that it’s usually too late.

Easy Treatment:

You can not see flukes on the fish but if you freshwater dip them you can see them literally fall off the fish from the eyes, gills and under the scales. Its amazing to see how much of it falls off. I kept saying "Where did all these flukes hid?" My small week old 3" Regal Angel had symptoms 1, 4 and 6 so I freshwater dipped it for 10 minutes. The next day his appetite came back. Same goes for my Chysyrus Angel and Goldflake Angel. Flukes are almost the same size and shape as sesame seeds but opaque white after a freshwater dip. Use a flashlight to find them because it’s hard to see the flukes against a white bucket.

Prazipro from Hikari is a great fluke cure as well. I once treated 5 fish that all had flukes. Using the recommended dosage and on the 2nd day my quarantine tank looked like it had a bad case of dandruff but actually they were dead flukes all over the water column.

If you freshwater dip your fish the flukes may come back. I had this happen to me. Some flukes lay eggs on the fish and some lay eggs on the gravel, rocks, etc. Only Prazipro or any fluke medication can kill the flukes in its egg stage. After searching Prazipro is the best fluke medication.

A 10 minute freshwater dip usually works for me. Why 10 minutes? Usually after 3 minute dip most flukes will fall off. Most fish will have flukes on the eye as well and there was one fluke that was still on the eye after 3 minutes. I had to wait till the 10th minute before that fluke finally came off.

Here are some pics from another thread that shows what flukes look like after a freshwater drip



Here is a picture of Prazipro



I've purchased all my fish from difference LFS ranging from Orange County to LA County and a few acquired directly from wholesalers.


cthetoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 01:03 PM   #2
ezcompany
Registered Member
 
ezcompany's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,640
my fish has some blotchy spots and a slightly cloudy eye on the iris. i was concerend so i started this thread awhile back:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic75483-10-1.aspx

click on the picture for a full sized pic

its appetite is ravenous though. should i wait to see if the appetite disappears then do the treatment? i wouldn't want to fw dip a perfectly healthy fish...


__________________
Jin
Have a nice day!

Current Tank Info: IM40
ezcompany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 01:32 PM   #3
xtm
Registered Member
 
xtm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Panorama City, CA
Posts: 4,698
Thanks for the heads up.. I've heard that flukes are also common with Anthias sp. I have a question though.. after your 10-min FW dip, did you simply release the fish back to full strength saltwater or did you drip acclimate to prevent osmotic shock?

thanks


__________________
Function before fashion

Current Tank Info: 120g SPS Tank (48x24x24)
xtm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 02:15 PM   #4
Scissorhand
Registered Member
 
Scissorhand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pho 54, SoCal
Posts: 3,066
I think I lost my rhomboid and solar to flukes as well.

Thanks for the heads-up. I did Prazipro and Cupramine but I think I caught it too late.


Scissorhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 03:19 PM   #5
cthetoy
Registered Member
 
cthetoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 1,890
Quote:
Originally posted by xtm
.. after your 10-min FW dip, did you simply release the fish back to full strength saltwater or did you drip acclimate to prevent osmotic shock?

thanks
When you FW dip your fish you release you fish back to your main tank or quarantine tank right away. Only thing important is to match your freshwater the same temp and pH as your main tank. I use RO water and the PH is usually around 7.1. I mix Kalkwasser in a small cup of water and pour a few drops in the freshwater to raise the pH. Some people use baked baking soda to raise pH if you dont have kalkwasser. If you pH is high then lower it with a few drops of vinegar.


cthetoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 05:00 PM   #6
cthetoy
Registered Member
 
cthetoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 1,890
Quote:
Originally posted by ezcompany
my fish has some blotchy spots and a slightly cloudy eye on the iris. i was concerend so i started this thread awhile back:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic75483-10-1.aspx

click on the picture for a full sized pic

its appetite is ravenous though. should i wait to see if the appetite disappears then do the treatment? i wouldn't want to fw dip a perfectly healthy fish...
Its still hard to tell from your pictures if your fish as flukes. All these pictures below are flukes on the eye





cthetoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 05:06 PM   #7
wishntoboutside
professional snow flake
 
wishntoboutside's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Riverside, Cali
Posts: 5,873
great post.
very nice if i would have know this 6 8 months ago. =) i learned the hard way. my freinds angel tank to hits and hits until using the prazi pro, i do recall it would kill lion fish or something like that wierd. fyi


wishntoboutside is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 05:14 PM   #8
Sk8r
RC Mod
 
Sk8r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 34,440
Blog Entries: 55
excellent post. I'm going to crosslist this thread over in Fish Disease. If it's hitting one area of the country it's going to hit others.


__________________
Sk8r

Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low.

Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, chromis, royal gramma basslet, tailspot blenny, ocellaris clown, yellow watchman, chestnut turbo snails, bristleworms, couple of hermits.
Sk8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 06:07 PM   #9
phatsonate
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HB
Posts: 1,207
Thanks for the informative post!


__________________
Nate
phatsonate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 07:06 PM   #10
grouperman
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: san diego
Posts: 205
my miniautus grouper has flukes and i have been doing the freshwater dips ( 80 / 20 ) but they keep coming back . must be the eggs . can i add the Prazipro to my main tank without side affects to the live rock or fish ? fish are large blue and gold cod , titan trigger , louti grouper , and miniautus . thanks for great thread !


grouperman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 07:26 PM   #11
golfish
Team RC Member
 
golfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Alta Loma, Ca
Posts: 6,729
C,
just think of it as a fluke sorry, I had too


__________________
grow em, frag em, trade em...

Current Tank Info: TOTM curse
golfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 08:10 PM   #12
zemuron114
Moved On
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pilgrim State (Mass)
Posts: 4,039
Mike - and others

Flukes are very common on fish in the wild. Christmas island fish come in all the time with flukes (especially goldflakes and bartletts) I haven't seen many on smaller angels like flames, lemonpeels etc. Wrasses, usually dont get them, but if there is an overwhelmingly amount of flukes in a closed system anything can get it. Large angels are very susceptible to flukes.

If your LFS has them in the system and they are noticeable, then they have to 1) dose a full dose of copper 2) hypo 3) drain it and bleach the entire system.. They need to get rid of it before they bring in more fish or the new fish will have a very high chance of getting them!

a long freshwater dip usually knocks them off. Prazi pro does to as a dip.

hope that helps


zemuron114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 08:13 PM   #13
zemuron114
Moved On
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pilgrim State (Mass)
Posts: 4,039
grouperman - the flukes are probably in the main tank. They are reproducing in there some how. Does anything else have it??

I do not believe prazi pro is reef safe. But i would double check anyway.


zemuron114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 08:30 PM   #14
grouperman
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: san diego
Posts: 205
as far as i can tell its only the miniatus but because he is dark red it makes them easy to see if the lights is shining on him . you are probably right the tank is infested with them i guess i better ask the lfs if they carry prazi pro


grouperman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 09:03 PM   #15
muerk1
Registered Member
 
muerk1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 24
I work at a wholesale livestock distributor. I see it all the time with certain types of fish. Midnight angels, imperator angels, regal angels, six barred angel are all high risk. I've also seen it on triggers, anthias, damsels, tangs, and dottybacks to some degree. 10 min FW dips and prazipro in the entire system are the only things that seem to work for me. We run copper in the system, but it alone doesn't seem to help. I've learned now that ANY fish with cloudy eyes more than likely has flukes.


muerk1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 09:48 PM   #16
reef_doug
Premium Member
 
reef_doug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hesperia/Apple Valley
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally posted by cthetoy
When you FW dip your fish you release you fish back to your main tank or quarantine tank right away. Only thing important is to match your freshwater the same temp and pH as your main tank. I use RO water and the PH is usually around 7.1. I mix Kalkwasser in a small cup of water and pour a few drops in the freshwater to raise the pH. Some people use baked baking soda to raise pH if you dont have kalkwasser. If you pH is high then lower it with a few drops of vinegar.
Info... I looked at my Salifert pH kit and it does not work with FW. I might be looking for a handheld pH meter soon, I've wanted one anyway.

Good post!


__________________
"If you have more than one tank in your livingroom, you might be a reefneck"

Current Tank Info: 180r SoCal Creations, 75g SCC1M Sump, WM EcoBAK, NextReef SMR1, TropicMarin Salt, ACIII, 3x250w HQI Phoenix 14k, 2x140w Super Actinics, ATi BM250, Eheim 1262, Tunze 2x6100+7095, Tunze Osmolator, 6 stage RODI w/ Spectrapure MaxCap
reef_doug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 10:26 PM   #17
tmz
ReefKeeping Mag staff

 
tmz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Seneca NY
Posts: 27,691
I had a filamented flaser wrasse (Parachelllinus filamentosus) in qt for three weeks in a 29 gallon tank. It was doing very well untill Monday evening. it stopped eating. I had noticed erratic head shaking twice before.It's skin was faded toward the rear. Hard to tell if the fins were frayed. It died this morning. I didn't know very much about flukes and could not figure out what was wrong. There is a biglongnose butterfly(Forcipiger longirostris) in the qt tank It has been there for about 6 weeks. There are no other fish in the tank. I have not observed any symptoms . Should I treat it?If so which treatment? Opinions?


__________________
Tom

Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
tmz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 10:38 PM   #18
cthetoy
Registered Member
 
cthetoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 1,890
Quote:
Originally posted by grouperman
you are probably right the tank is infested with them i guess i better ask the lfs if they carry prazi pro
If your LFS doesn’t carry Prazipro then most koi/pond places will carry Prazipro since flukes are common with Koi as well. My LFS sells the 4 oz for $15. Fostersmith is the cheapest at $10 for 4 oz and $36 for 16 oz. Marine depot doesn't carry any. The 4oz will treat 480 gallons. Some people use fluke-tabs or other medications containing praziquental but the safest, easiest has the the most success was Prazipro.

I heard mixed results if Prazipro is reef safe. Prazipro mentioned it does not harm the biological filter which I agree and not safe with worms i.e. feather dusters. From other threads here Xenia and Star Polyps does not like Prazipro. Prazipro does not precipitate into the rocks and gravel like copper

I never had success curing flukes with copper. I called Seachem and they said Cupramine should get rid of flukes. While it may work with certain species of flukes I know it did not get rid my species.

Mixing praziquental (Prazipro, Ultra Cure from Gel Tek) with food did not get rid of my flukes. It may have gotten rid of any intestinal worms if the fish had if any


cthetoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 10:52 PM   #19
cthetoy
Registered Member
 
cthetoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 1,890
Quote:
Originally posted by tmz
I had a filamented flaser wrasse (Parachelllinus filamentosus) in qt for three weeks in a 29 gallon tank. It was doing very well untill Monday evening. it stopped eating. I had noticed erratic head shaking twice before.It's skin was faded toward the rear. Hard to tell if the fins were frayed. It died this morning. I didn't know very much about flukes and could not figure out what was wrong. There is a biglongnose butterfly(Forcipiger longirostris) in the qt tank It has been there for about 6 weeks. There are no other fish in the tank. I have not observed any symptoms . Should I treat it?If so which treatment? Opinions?
Most likely your wrasse had flukes from the symptoms you described. You could of FW dipped your dead wrasse to confirm if it had flukes. I FW dipped my dead Chysyrus Angel and hundreds (yes that many) of flukes fell off. I could not see the flukes on the fish until after the FW dip. From an arm distance away you cannot see the flukes in the FW dip. Only up close you can view them with the naked eye. A flashlight will help or pour some water in a large glass cup/bowl and view it under the light.

Your butterfly may or may not have flukes. You can observe the fish over the next few days and see it has any of the fluke symptoms. Some flukes lay eggs on the fish and some on the gravel. Hopefully the flukes stayed with the wrasse if it indeed died of flukes.

There are probably more fluke deaths out there but reefers here are not saying or admit their fish had ich or velvet, treated it with copper and have their fish die a few days/weeks later while all along not knowing his fish actually died of flukes. Who wants to start a new thread about their dead fish or their failure of curing it. I know I won't enjoy it



Last edited by cthetoy; 11/28/2007 at 11:01 PM.
cthetoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 11:15 PM   #20
tmz
ReefKeeping Mag staff

 
tmz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Seneca NY
Posts: 27,691
This is a very helpful thread. Thankyou all for shaaring this information. If I had read it a few days ago I might still have that wrasse.
One note,anecdotally, the qt tank was at 1.19 salinity and I was in the process of moving it up slowy preparing to introduce these fish into the dispaly system. First to 1.21 andthen 24 hours later to 1.23(I use a refractometer and have verified it). Then the wrasse exhibited the symptoms noted earlier including some heavy breathing. I dropped the salinity back down not really understanding why such a gradual change would have any ill effectbut I thought lower salinity would be easier on the fish. Do you think the rise in salinity helped the flukes hatch or gain vitality? Has any one had success with hypo treatment for flukes?
I did just observe the butterfly again and noted splotchiness on the tail and a little on the pectorals.I don't have any prazi pro on hand. I did dose formalin. I will look for prazi pro tommorow. Has anyone had success with formalin? The manufacturer claims it is effective against flukes. I'm glad I learned my lesson about quarantine a long time ago.


__________________
Tom

Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
tmz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 11:19 PM   #21
jeffreylam1132
Registered Member
 
jeffreylam1132's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Rosemead, CA
Posts: 2,658
Great info! Never knew about this disease until now. Thanks.


__________________
SCRK, SFVR, SCMAS & LARS Member

Current Tank Info: Tankless
jeffreylam1132 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 11:22 PM   #22
zemuron114
Moved On
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pilgrim State (Mass)
Posts: 4,039
formalin is a very touchy med. Its very potent at a small dose and if you overdose in the slightest it will kill pretty much everything. It does work against flukes though, but you have to carefully dose it.


zemuron114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2007, 11:32 PM   #23
tmz
ReefKeeping Mag staff

 
tmz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Seneca NY
Posts: 27,691
Quote:
Originally posted by zemuron114
formalin is a very touchy med. Its very potent at a small dose and if you overdose in the slightest it will kill pretty much everything. It does work against flukes though, but you have to carefully dose it.
Thanks for the reply. I've used it as a dip before without ill effect. I used only the recommended dose,3tsps of 3% for 29 gallons. The directions state you can double dose. So I think the fish will be ok. I just didn't wan't to wait untill I can get some prazi pro.


__________________
Tom

Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
tmz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/29/2007, 07:26 AM   #24
JHemdal
Moved On
 
JHemdal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,971
Good thread -

A couple of observations though - the pictures (and many of the symptoms) above pertain to Neobenedinia. This is a large, common fluke that *can* kill fish, but it takes a long time. More insidous are smaller gill and skin flukes (you cannot see these in the FW dip bucket without a microscope or at least a hand lens).
With FW dips, it makes sense to match water temps, but don't go overboard trying to match the pH - a fish exposed to massive osmotic change like that isn't going to notice the pH difference.
Also, I generally don't go 10 minutes on a FW dip. Dips alone won't eradicte flukes because some are egg-layers and infections with the livebearing species almost always have some juveniles in the tank and not on the fish. Better to use the FW dips as a pre-treatment.
Here is a rather important point - if the fish has a heavy fluke infestation and you do a 10 minute FW dip and knock off ALL the flukes, the fish may "bleed out" and die from the literally hundreds of holes in its skin left by the killed flukes. If you suspect a SEVERE fluke infestation, try a 3 or 4 minute FW dip, wait a couple of days and try a 5 or 6 minute dip, wait a day or two and then hit the tank with praziquantel. The idea is to remove the flukes a few at a time so the fish's skin can heal a bit between removals.

Jay Hemdal


JHemdal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/29/2007, 07:39 AM   #25
racerw
Registered Member
 
racerw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 811
Excellent post not much info on RC about them. Here is my story.
About 8-9 months ago I received a pair of crosshatch triggers from a wholesaler that seemed fine at first. They were eating & swimming around.
After about a week I noticed my male had a cloudy eye, than he stopped eating & would stay in the rock work. With in days the female started doing the same thing.
When I finally figured out what they had & did a fresh water dip the bottom of the container was covered in flukes. After the dip I treated w/Prazipro & flukes still came off them.


__________________
Stacie
racerw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:57 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2021 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.