Breathable bags?

[Kathy55g]

Does anyone use the Kordon Breathable bags to ship fish?

How do they compare with regular bags and O2?

[ediaz]

better get some big palstic bags...

the kordons can't be in contact with any surface for them to breathe, you will need to pack them in shipping peanuts to achive that. Nothing like a worry free bag with O2.

Ed

[Kathy55g]

When you ship, how many fish per bag, and what volume of water do you use?

[Kmiec123]

Is there a book for this kind of thing. :)

[mano]

I use them with seahorses and they are driven from San Diego to LA wholesalers. Work great for that and easier than adding O2. You can use them with newspaper or cardboard, which still allows the bags to breathe. I pack 5 seahorses (2-4 inches) and use about 4 L of water total. For shipping across country etc. it might not be worth it since you have to use more water with these bags.

Christine

[Heterodonut]

I have used the Kordon breather bags. A HUGE advantage in my opinion is that you can FILL the bag with water. Do a ups of fed ex test. Fill a reg. bag third full of water (or whatever you would normally fill) then fill with O2. Tie it up and shake it like it is in a box being tossed around by the shipping folks. Imagine what your fish look like being tossed around in the surf. Now fill a breather bag completely full, put a fish or several in it, and shake it up. I would think the breather bags would be a lot less stressful on the fish. Also, I guy I know had his package delayed (read lost) for weeks. His guppies were a little hungry, but otherwise in great shape in breather bags.

[MarinaP]

I had horrible luck with these bags. Two pairs of very large chrysopterus were DOA (shipping from VA to MI, two separate shipments).

My theory is that there is not enough 02 in the cargo area of an airplane, and fish suffocates.

I normally fill plastic bags with 1/3 water and 2/3 O2.

[GreshamH]

Did you seal the box Marina?

[MarinaP]

I used one styrofoam box with peanuts and one cardboard box.

Yes, I sealed both boxes, how else can you ship? :confused:

[ediaz]

LOL Marina

The only person i received kordon bags is two posts above, but rotifers, they pack them in peanuts and they can stay there up to 2 days.

I use 9 liters of water from the same tank and the rest oxygen. Don''t overfill the bag like a balloon leave some uninflated. Use two large rubberbands to close the bag, if the temp is below 55 use hand warmers one in each box, if the temp is over 80 use ice packs.I use the styro you see at most LFS when they receive fish and a bag the same size, never had problems with the airlines and or schedules.

Oh the fish will suffer hell, they get tossed kicked dropped you name it make sure you get strong boxes, they even leave the boxes upside down even when it says this side up and live fish.

Ed

[MarinaP]

I am not following your train of thought, Ed.

I do use double plastic bags for shipping with a 100% survival rate.

I shared my unfortunate experience with Kordon bags, not plastic bags.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9061650#post9061650 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarinaP
I used one styrofoam box with peanuts and one cardboard box.

Yes, I sealed both boxes, how else can you ship? :confused:

I was just pointing out a drawback to the breathable bags. Your limitted to o2 in the box itself.

One of the wholesalers I used to work for tried extensive studies with these bags. We found them great for shipping shrimp, but anything with a spine usually popped them. o2 never seemed to be the problem for us, but rather ammonia did.

[liverock]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9062124#post9062124 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
I was just pointing out a drawback to the breathable bags. Your limited to o2 in the box itself.

One of the wholesalers I used to work for tried extensive studies with these bags. We found them great for shipping shrimp, but anything with a spine usually popped them. o2 never seemed to be the problem for us, but rather ammonia did.

I used to use them too, for overseas shipments that were going to be in transit for 4-5 days....had great success with them but as mentioned, they are very prone to leak as they are very thin, and ANYTHING sharp would puncture them, but usually not enough water would leak out and critters made it alive.

When packing the box, use a full size 4mil bag to line the styro, place breathing bags in it, and fill full size bag with o2, rubber band it.... then no worries for days....

Richard TBS:rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

[Kathy55g]

Do you think clownfish would pop them?

Ed, how many fish do you put in a bag? Just one bag per box?

Gresham, it makes sense that ammonia would be a problem with the breathable bags. Since CO2 does not accumulate, the pH would remain stable around 8. Ammonia would accumulate and not be detoxified by lowering pH. I think they recommend using Amquel or ChloramX.

K

[ediaz]

The bag is the same size of the box I use double bag for safety, you can put up to 50 of your fish.

[David M]

I was just about add Kathy's last point, adding something to the water. I never have but wonder if I should?

Kathy, there is a section in Hoff's book on shipping, # of fish per volume of water, etc.

[GreshamH]

Our expirements where for the first leg of the journey (export) so we where trying not to use any extra chemicals that locals would need to buy.

Too bad I didn't have the supply I do now, I'd simply toss some Chloramx at it :lol:

Kordon used the bags quite successfully as well, shipping to Russia even.

[MarinaP]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9062124#post9062124 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
Your limitted to o2 in the box itself.

I thought both cardboard and styrofoam allow SOME gas exchange. Am I wrong?

If Kordon bags were so great, the industry would have switched to them as oppose to paying extra $$$ for O2 and using plastic bags. It is not happening.

Why?

[GreshamH]

By far the greatest use thus far has been live feeds. That's what Kordon was shipipng, and thats what we use them for :D

If you taped your Styro, how could there be any "usable" gas exchange? :D

[jacob30]

Shipped some clowns to CA and OK no problem using the small Kordons doubled bagged with 2 juvie clowns in each bag. I have also shipped about 25 juvie cardinals to Florida this way as well.

Large fish may be a problem but the small guys seem to do just fine.

[apistomaster]

Kordon's breatheable bags are a very controversial topic in many forums. Like all technology there are pros and cons.
They are not good for spiney fish or very large fish(no large breatheable bags).
The fact is that when used properly they will keep fish alive far longer than conventional bags. It only takes minimal separation with newspaper or WHY to assure good gas exchange. I have seen fish lost in shipment for over a week arrive alive. That doesn't happen with conventional bags.
As far as widespread commercial use for box lots the cost of the nonexistent large bag would be a corner cut by the industry relying on overnight or less air transport but for hobbyists they are a boon. AKA members have widely embraced their use because small fish separately packed to prevent fight damage is the rule. USPS is the most common carrier used and delays seem to be the rule no matter what type of shipping one elects to pay for. It is true that many shippers of small shrimp have adopted them and I have recieved several delayed shipments without any losses. Standard bags quickly become foul.
Adding substances such as Amquel is discouraged as they consume dissolved oxygen which outweighs the risk of ammonia build up which takes longer to occur. Besides the pH of the shipping water drops reducing the toxicity of the ammonia considerably adding more safety factor than additives.

[Kathy55g]

If CO2 is exchanged with the air outside the bag, why would pH drop?

[apistomaster]

Hi Kathy,
The CO2 molecules are larger than the O2 molecules and the bags are a semipermeable membrane which allows the O2 to pass more freely than the CO2. The fish inside is contantly respirating CO2 so the gradient of outside CO2 vs inside is such that CO2 bulids up faster than it is exchanged with the outside. The result is that CO2 is preferentially retained and it takes very little increase in dissolved CO2 to lower the pH of the fish containing water inside the bag. It is not high enough to kill the fish but it does two things; 1, pH is lowered which renders ammonia less toxic and 2. CO2 is a natural fish anesthetic in the low doses that accumulate. This is a happy coincidence. The same thing happens on regular bags. If it did not then fish shipping would not be practical as it is done today in an enclosed bag. Before modern shipping methods were developed fish were shipped in none air tight contaainers where oxygen levels were maintained just as they are in aquariums but the transit times were much longer as were the fish losses higher.
There has been quite a bit of study done on this subject. This has also spawned another controversy. Whether it is better to immediately add the fish to better conditions or prolong their stay in the shipping bags. Unless there is a very large difference in temperatures I adhere to the dump and dash method of releasing my fish from shipping bags.
Larry

[Kathy55g]

Not meaning to contradict, but this from Novalek:

The Kordon ® Breathing Bag represents a new approach to the problems of shipping live fishes and other aquatic animals over long distances or for extended time periods. The product development staff at Kordon, teamed with plastics chemical engineers, have taken a technology first developed in space/military research and refined it to produce the bags being offered today. The Breathing Bag allows the transfer of simple and complex gas molecules through the plastic wall of the bag -- carbon dioxide and oxygen in particular, as well as other gases - providing a true "breathing" bag in place of a "barrier" bag. As long as there is a normal breathable atmosphere outside the Breathing Bag, the animals inside will not run out of oxygen. Carbon dioxide exits the bags at 4 times the rate oxygen enters the bags, thereby constantly purging the water of toxic carbon dioxide, and allowing oxygen to replace it in the water. Kordon has shipped millions of bags (termed "Sachets") of living foods (tubifex worms, brine shrimp, daphnia, glass worms, etc.) for aquarium fishes using the Breathing Bag technology.

[Luis A M]

Interesting subject for home research:)

[apistomaster]

Hi Kathy,
Now that you mention it I do remember reading that when I was ordering from Novalek. I stand corrected. That makes the case for their use wherever appropriate even stronger.
From personal experience I know that fish shipped in them can live for an incredibly long time. Regular bags are the ones that experience the CO2 build up. But I am always open to constructive criticism of my pontifications. You got me on this one.
Larrry

[Kathy55g]

Hi apisto,
I am not meaning to criticize you. Sometimes the advertisement of things does not measure up to reality of them. I just wondered if you had some experience that contradicted that literature.

I didn't mean to "get" you. I appreciate the information you brought here.

Do you think that clownfish (A. Ocellaris) are too spiney to ship in them?

Kathy
:D

[apistomaster]

Hi Kathy,
You did not say anything that wasn't well founded.
I find the bags to be quite tough and I think clowns would be safe to ship in the breathable bags. I would recommend a home trial and bag one up and leave it in the bag for 48 hours just to build experience and confidence in these bags. I would bag them individually always.
Larry