What is the chemical composition of ChemiClean?

[Bonebrake]

:confused:

[bertoni]

The manufacturer doesn't say, but there are some guesses that it's erythromycin. It might be an oxidizer.

[Boomer]

We don't know. We have had many debates and guesses on it but so far all our theories have failed on what it is :(

However, I have a new theory. They state this

Contains no phosphates, algacides or Erythromycin succinate. Avoid prolonged skin contact. Keep away from children. Do not ingest. ChemiClean Net Weight: 2 grams.

Ok trick data sheet maybe :lol: It contains no Erythromycin succinate but here are other forms of Erythromycin that are not succinate



Erythromycin Estolate, Erythromycin Stearate, Erythromycin Ethylsuccinate, Erythromycin Ethylsuccinate, others :)

It is also not an oxidizer another theroy we had.

[Bonebrake]

On the label it claims: "Oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment..."

Why do you not think it is an oxidizer?

I hope they wouldn't be sneaky enough to put another form of erythromycin in there...

I know it made my skimmer production increase in volume by 100 fold for a few days when I used it so I assume it is some sort of oxidizer, but I have no clue what kind of oxidizer.

Also I have heard of mass death in tanks where there was not sufficient aeration and/or they did not put an airstone in with treatment. That along with it being a white powder I guess are the only clues we have as to what it is without further analysis...

[Boomer]

Try a sample of water with some an a ORP probe to see if it rises to a high ORP :) Oxidizers raise the ORP.

Oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment

It is this statement that makes me think it is a flocculating agent which will/can do this. I had ideas it was Alum but sulfate tests showed it was not. It is odd there is no MSDS on this stuff. So far we have not been able to find one.

[Bonebrake]

Hmmm... No ORP probe here, maybe someone else can help us out with that. :)

:idea:

This just popped in my head when you mentioned that you think it is a flocculating agent - could it be a type of polyacrylamide?

[Boomer]

Hmmmmm maybe you are on to something :D That substance has never been brought up. Is it a white powder ?

http://esce.ucr.edu/soilwater/spring_2001.htm

[killagoby]

YIKES!!!

[Bonebrake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12081739#post12081739 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
Is it a white powder?

Yes it is!

http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00dBAtbRKCkTqZM/Anionic-Polyacrylamide.jpg

In the link you posted they are using extremely small masses to treat large volumes of water (and areas of soil) as well!

[Boomer]

Well there Med student, then take some ChemiClean to the lab and drop in the lap of your chem prof :D

Go to the geology department and ask them if they have an XRD :) That will tell us 100 % EXACTLY what it is and its 100 % EXACT composition :) If there is just 1 Na++ ion in the test sample it will find it. It will even tell you where it is sitting in the crystal lattice...:bigeyes:

I think you may be on a roll so this /that is your new job for the chem-forum :thumbsup: You will get lots of bonus points as this a very old subject....... What is it ? Wait that was your question also :lol:

Now, don't come back here you hear............. until you have the answer ;)

[Boomer]

Chemi-Clean MSDS, found it finally


Material Safety Data Sheet

CHEMI-CLEAN

Distributor: Boyd Enterprises
1670 NE 205 Terrace
Miami, FL 33179
Ph: 305-651-2496
Fax: 305-651-2496

Section 1---Ingredients



Section 2---Physical data

Appearance: White powder

Section 3—First Aid Measures

Inhalation: Remove to fresh air
Ingestion: Wash out mouth with water.
Skin contact: Immediately flush skin with copious amounts of water.
Eye contact: Immediately flush eyes with copious amounts of water

Section 4—Hazard Data

May Cause sensitization by inhalation and skin contact.
In case of accident or if you feel unwell. Seek out medical advice. Bring at least the label of product with you

Section 5---Fire Fighting Methods

Fire: Emits toxic fumes under fire conditions
Explosion: not applicable
Fire extinguishing Media: Water spray, or applicable foam.
Special information: Wear appropriate protective gear for toxic fumes.

Section 6---Accidental Release Measures

Remove all possible ignition sources. Ventilate are of leak or spill. Wear appropriate personal protective equipment as specified in Section 8
Spills: Sweep up, place in bag and hold for waste disposal. Avoid raising dust, wash spill site after material pickup is complete.


Section 7---Handling and Storage

Keep tightly closed. Store in a cool, dry place. Refer to Section 8

Section 8---Exposure Control / Personal Protection

Ventilation system: Mechanical exhaust required. Avoid Prolonged or repeated exposure.
Personal Respirators: Wear appropriate NIOSH respirator
Skin Protection: Compatible chemical-resistant gloves; lab coat; apron or coveralls; boots, avoid prolonged or repeated exposure. Wash thoroughly after handling
Eye Protection: Use Chemical safety goggles and/or full face-shield where dusting or splashing of solutions is possible.

Section 9---Toxicological Information

Acute effects: May be harmful by inhalation, ingestion, or skin absorption. May cause allergic reaction. Exposure can cause: stomach pains, vomiting, and diarrhea
To the best of our knowledge, the chemical- physical, and toxicological properties have no been thoroughly investigated.
LD 50 (oral – mouse) > 10 g/kg
Target Organ Data: Behavioral (ataxia)
Gastrointestinal (nausea or vomiting)
Liver (other changes)

Section 10---Ecological Information

Ecological Fate: No information found
Ecological toxicology: No information found

None of the ingredients were listed though :lol:
__________________

[Bonebrake]

Yes sir, Dr. Boomer sir! :D

I am doing my clinical rotations in the Geisinger Health System in North central Pennsylvania, but I live close to Bloomsburg University.

I will call over and see if they have an XRD and if they would be willing to test an unknown for me. :)

[DrBDC]

I find that interesting that the ingredients aren't listed on the msds. That wouldn't go over well with inspectors in a commercial situation. I have (or am supposed to have) a complete msds on any chemical in my office be it a cleaner, ultrasound gels, etc. on file at all times. Depending on the inspector, that could be a problem.

[Bonebrake]

Boyd Enterprises wants to keep it top secret as to what it is. If it truly is a form of polyacrylamide as I suspect it is, what they are selling is costing them a fraction of a cent so they are making a killing selling a couple of grams of this stuff.

I called Bloomsburg University and they have an XRD, but all of the professors are on Spring break this week so I will call the head of the department of Geology on Monday to see if he would be willing to help me out with testing this stuff. :)

[Boomer]

:dance: :dance: :bounce3: :bounce1: :bounce2: :dance: :dance:

From all of us :thumpsup:

[Boomer]

Dr

From the original thread they are not required by law to have one and even if they do they did they don't have to list the ingredients. :( A least the is what Dick Boyd says.

[DrBDC]

They would have to have one in their files for their own location but don't have to produce one for others. The only problem I can see is if someone is buying it for for a commercial setting (their own or maybe a tank maintenance bus). At homes, you don't need them. Most offices never see an OSHA inspector anyway. I never have.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If it is any form of flocculating organic polymer, then any claim about it oxidizing sludge fits in with the typical Boyd modus operandi: absolutely no basis in fact. :D

It does fit the one bit of info on the MSDS: the mouse LD50. Few chemicals cna match >10 g/kg. Even salt is below that. :)

[HowardW]

Randy, A flocculating agent and an oxidizer are two completely seperate things, right?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Flocculation simply means bringing things together. A polymer would coat a particulate and bring them together with other like particulates that normally repelled each other or at least had no attraction for one another, and caused a bigger lump to form out of many little bits that would then settle out.

One might make some sort of claim that an oxidizer (like permanganate or ozone) might cause flocculation of certain materials if added correctly, but those oxidizers would not be polymers, and would certainly not have an LD50 above 10 g/kg.

[Bonebrake]

Yes, the LD50 does support the idea that it is a flocculating agent.

If it is polyacrylamide that LD50 would cause death by laxative. :eek:

[Bonebrake]

I spoke with Dr. Braun who is the head of the department of Geology at Bloomsburg University and he said they are having some software issues with their XRD, but he said they are trying to work things out and to call him back next week.

He sounded enthusiastic to help me out so I think we will have an answer to this mystery in due time. :)

[Boomer]

:thumbsup:

[ostrow]

Is the time due yet?

[BradR]

So what's in it?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know any more than we did then. Sorry.

[BradR]

Thank you!

[goldmaniac]

bump
did anyone every find out what Chemi clean uses as its active ingredient?

thanks,
G.

[disc1]

Unfortunately it is still an unknown AFAIK.

[goldmaniac]

thanks disk1. awesome avatar you got there.

so.. some sort of polyacrylamide is still the primary suspect? i was thinking it was some [other] type of erythromycin when i just looked it up, but the MSDS LD 50 on the mice pretty much rules that out, i'm figuring.

[Bilk]

How do these companies get away with packaging and selling chemicals/pharmaceuticals to the public without being required by law to state exactly what active ingredients are in their product? I mean there are public health and safety issues here. Children and animals might ingest the stuff. How would a doctor know what emergency procedures to perform or avoid based on the agent involved? Isn't this regulated by the USDA or FDA?

I had an email exchange with the sales director from Red Sea in the UK - initiated by a thread I started in their sponsor forum. It was a cordial exchange and not hostile in the least. He was actually interested in some of my criticism. I told him I saw not including concentrations of elements and ingredients as a shortcoming. I also asked him how they were able to not do so on their labeling. He referred me to the MSDS they provide for each of their products. However, like the Boyd MSDS, theirs do not state what's in the bottles either. He claims it complies with federal regulations. I can't see how that's the case and especially so for imported products.

[dkeller_nc]

You might want to read this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22360433#post22360433

Seems that someone in Germany with some credentials analyzed it and determined that it contained erythromycin (sulfate). And banned it as a result.

[goldmaniac]

I am truly impressed with RC's ability to answer my reefing question.

Erythromycin sulfate

Wow, that thread does sound like a legitimate answer to what's in Chemi Clean. almost everything fits into place... except the LD 10 at 10g/kg...

[Bilk]

How would an antibiotic cause a skimmer to go nuts for hours on end? I've use it in the past and have also use prescription erythromycin. The dosage of CC makes a skimmer foam over for hours. That doesn't happen with just the antibiotic. There's more to CC than just erythromycin imo.

[dkeller_nc]

How would an antibiotic cause a skimmer to go nuts for hours on end? I've use it in the past and have also use prescription erythromycin. The dosage of CC makes a skimmer foam over for hours. That doesn't happen with just the antibiotic. There's more to CC than just erythromycin imo.

There might well be (more than just erythro). That said, cyano is extraordinarily sensitive to erythromycin, so it would make sense that it would be effective. It would be interesting to dissolve some Chemiclean in some purified water and then test it with an ORP probe to determine if it contains an oxidizer.

[DEA Coral]

I was wondering the same about this and just wanted to know what was in it for long term risks to my tanks. It would be a shame if it is just a common item that we already have at home and they sell it for profits. Could be OxyClean!

[Squidmotron]

I think the risk is that it kills a bunch of bacteria -- being an antibiotic -- but it seems that it does leave most tanks in tact.

[nogascans]

I think the risk is that it kills a bunch of bacteria -- being an antibiotic -- but it seems that it does leave most tanks in tact.

Assuming the ingredient is erythromycin (kill the cyano) and some other chemicals (Flocculate) to allow leftovers to be skimmed out, what is the risk of killing all the other beneficial bacteria in the tank and causing a cycle?

Any recent 1st hand experiences? Any issues with cycle issues?

I have several tanks that have been up in running without issue for several years but a relatively recent cube build has somehow inherited this and I have tried all other forms of nutrient control without success at removal.

Sincerely,

David

[nogascans]

Got my answer!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453082