FYI - GE Silicone II - TOXIC

[jpkrze]

Just wanted to put this out there as an FYI.

DO NOT USE GE SILICONE II (black)

I had 12 fish die within 48 hrs. Never seen fish die soo fast or one after another. Used this to attach a 3d background in my 185g and it killed the entire tank.

Some people say this stuff is ok to use but I would steer clear! Just my 2cents.

Hope this post saves you some time and $$.

[jimmyj7090]

That's terrible.

How long did you let it cure?

[Amoore311]

Did yours have the mold/mildew inhibitor?

It's not that I don't trust you, but I have to ask since people have been using the GE II for a long time on various projects in/around reef tanks w/ no problem.

[matiLanza]

dammnn it ! ! i just made my overflow with that !

[der_wille_zur_macht]

How did you rule out the 3D background itself?

[96p993]

I like a bit more info as well...

Cure time?
Was this windows and doors or bathroom?
How do you know for a fact it was the silicone?

Thanks

[disc1]

Cure time is really important since GE II makes ammonia as it cures.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Gluing a background on seems to imply a really major change in the system, i.e. practically starting it from scratch since I suspect it would be empty when you did the gluing. Can you describe your entire process?

[Gorgok]

I used GE II windows & doors that never mentioned any mold inhibitors on a foam background as well. After about a week i added a pair of snails (strombus maculatus). I think they died overnight (i had put them with a small piece of algae wedged into a rock next to them). Luckily (for me, not the snails) i have enough of them breeding that losing snails isn't really a concern. I completely changed that water out and mixed up a new batch (only 10g, no big deal) and did it again. This time the snail lived a couple of days i think. So far, i have had maybe 5 die and none survive more than 3 days i think.

I actually read, later, that it cured with ammonia, but as i tested the water it was never present...

The only other thing i could think of is that the foam i used was doing it, its Smartpond Foam Sealant. No epoxy or anything on it after that.

I have another snail in the tank at the moment going on its 3rd day...

I also thought about pulling the panels out and using just plain silicone, but i don't know if that is even possible with all the stuff i used to attach them. Plus getting the old stuff off the panels would probably be very hard.

[jpkrze]

It was the Window and Door Silicone II in black. Not the bath one that list 5yrs mold free etc. Cured for 3days. These were also freshwater cichlids which are much more hardy than my reef fish. Yes, it was a large water change but all the filters were still full/warm from an established tank. These fish were acting weird, like they were on drugs or something. Never seen anything like it. The background was from Universal Rocks and I've never heard of anyone having a problem with those.

I also read Silicone II produces Ammonia when curing but tests came up 0. Ran carbon as soon as the first fish dropped. Leads me to guess some chemical is poisoning them. My question is does the poison ever stop or will it keep leaching out unless I tear it down.

[matiLanza]

reeading this is making my want to pull my hair out! i just built the thing! i was told it was fine and used before

[96p993]

reeading this is making my want to pull my hair out! i just built the thing! i was told it was fine and used before


Relax sparky :rollface:

Im not sure how far in the process you are but proceed with a little caution and all should be fine. If all is still dry I would give a bit more time to cure than originally thought. I will tell you there are many many people that have used this stuff with no issues, including myself. In this case, the addition of something as large as a background might have a been a large contributor to his issue, its hard to say. Im drilling my tank tonight and will be siliconing my glass holes overflow in next couple days, I have no issue using this stuff...Just proceed slowly and all should be fine

[Gorgok]

For scale i should probably add that i used about 3/4 of a tube on a 10g tank (i Really didn't want those things to move, ever). Its probably too much and the curing is slowed (center of the blobs is harder to get to) and made more intense (silicone/water ratio high) because of it.

[widmer]

For scale i should probably add that i used about 3/4 of a tube on a 10g tank (i Really didn't want those things to move, ever). Its probably too much and the curing is slowed (center of the blobs is harder to get to) and made more intense (silicone/water ratio high) because of it.

Bingo, assuming these "universal rocks" you mentioned are some aquarium-purposed product. Otherwise my guess would have been if you had used cement and then not cured it sufficiently and pH went up to approximately ten million on the 14-unit scale :lol:

But 3/4 of a tube in a 10 gallon tank is a ton, and you most likely did have thick areas that were still releasing whatever it releases. Not to mention 12 cichlids in a 10 gallon being a lot as well...

[Entropicstatic]

Probably cure time. I usually run carbon for a couple days after doing any silicone work.
One thing I noticed in the post though... Foam background. Be aware that most house insulating foam contains HBCD or some other Brominated organic molecules used as a Fire retardant. almost all of these are KNOWN marine pollutants. They kill fish.
Just an FYI for the DIY guys.

Note: Most Dow Great stuff is fine. Just avoid the fire retardant kind.

[Gorgok]

Bingo, assuming these "universal rocks" you mentioned are some aquarium-purposed product. Otherwise my guess would have been if you had used cement and then not cured it sufficiently and pH went up to approximately ten million on the 14-unit scale :lol:

But 3/4 of a tube in a 10 gallon tank is a ton, and you most likely did have thick areas that were still releasing whatever it releases. Not to mention 12 cichlids in a 10 gallon being a lot as well...

Now you have a few posts crossed. :hmm5: The 10 fish were in a 185 gallon tank with the background made by that Universal Rocks or whatnot. The 3/4 tube was in my 10g with only a few snails, no fish. Which is still alot, sure, but the snails are guinea pigs and i won't put anything but a single one in there until that last single one stays alive. Poor snails fate...

[nematode]

Sorry for you loss. It can be devastating. Like the summer 05 storms in MO that cooked and killed my tank while the power was off for 3 days while I was out of town.

However, I do not think you are doing the community a service with the title of the thread.

Our hobby is predicated on building knowledge, and that is based on facts. Not opinions or hastily based conclusions.

The fact is that many others including I have used GE silicone II for many many years without problems!!!
The fact is also that some people have had horrible things happen to their tanks shortly after using GE silicone II.
The conclusion that based on the second fact alone GE silicone II is always toxic is not a fair and valid one.

Everything is toxic under certain circumstances:

Kids drown in 1 inch of water.
The NaCl (salt) in my lab has a toxic warning on it. 50 ppm salt will kill most fish, 35 ppm is blissful.
Sucrose (sugar) ground finely is very flammable.

Silicone II is a neutral cure silicone (it releases ammonia and methanol). Both of these are very toxic to animals. After it has cured pure silicone is viewed non-toxic (safe for drinking water applications). Except PERHAPS the mold inhibiting versions (kitchen and bath) that have some anti-mold agents in the silicone. I haven't seen any solid data these actually cause problems in reef tanks, but it certainly is possible.

Silicone I leaches acetic acid while curing. Acetic acid is much less toxic to fish (we even add it to calcium hydroxide (ball pickling lime) to increase solubility of the calcium.

But both silicones are essential inert after curing.

So why do people use II?
II sticks better to plastics than I, and I sticks better to glass then II

I literally just used GE silicone II clear on saturday evening to reseal a bulkhead. I dropped the level of the tank below the bulkhead, pulled the bulkhead out , cleaned it, resealed, it waited 24 hrs, refilled. Corals were fine before. Corals are fine after.

My larger 140 g tank is completely sealed with Black GE silicone II. I did by let the silicone cure for weeks before I put in fish and corals (siliconed before leaving for vacation). But many other times I've used GE II sealed tanks after 24 hrs or even less (just o.n.) . The fish are fine. The corals are fine.

SO, please don't just blame GE silicone II without reflecting on the situation.

You used GE silicone II. Your fish died. These are facts.
How and/or If GE silicone II lead to fish dying is not necessarily clear.
If you did not wait until the silicone cured (24 hrs, not just the 3 hr setting time), then it could be the Silicone II releasing ammonia and methanol. However, in that case, it is your fault for not following directions. It could be some independent event (pulling fish out and placing them in a holding facility, etc is all very stressful for fish).

I can understand if this experience makes you restrict you use of silicone to the "aquarium safe" labels. But it is just not as clear as Silicone II is toxic and kills fish.

In any case, I hope in the future that you will start a thread with facts rather than conclusions and let the community help you derive at the cause of the mishap (or disaster in this case).

Mike

[jpkrze]

Nematode...if you read my follow up you would see I let it cure for 3 days and did follow directions.

I used 1.5 tubes of Silicone II on 185 gallons of water. No ammonia, nitrate,nitrite ever registered meaning it was cured. Still curing, it would put off ammonia. Corals are also much different than fish. Power outage for 24 hrs, fish die, corals do not.

Kids drown in 1 inch of water??? What is wrong with you. How is that relevant or even socially appropriate to say.

I'm just saying that, "in my opinion", Silicone II is not worth the risk based on my experience and others that I have read. $400 of fish dead because I wanted black silicone that I could buy at Depot/Lowes. Order the Dow 999A or AGA silicone from the pet store or any others that specifically say Aquarium Safe. Wish I would have done that......

End of story...again, just my 2cents and opinion. Take it however you want

[disc1]

Power outage for 24 hrs, fish die, corals do not.



^^^^

[nematode]

I am just saying titling the thread.
"Could GE Silicone II have caused my Fish deaths?" would have been more appropriate.

And just to balance the issue I would simply point out my opinion from my experience (and others who have posted here)

using Black Silicone II is not risky and poses no danger either to corals or to Fish.

And I would further to say that it is highly doubtful that your use of black GE silicone II is what killed your fish.

[jpkrze]

Agreed ....the thread title would be more accurate that way

Still puzzled at what could have nuked my tank that fast. Water params are still perfect. Really don't want to cut out the background and all silicone to start over. Going to buy a test fish tonight and see what happens....

[sfsuphysics]

I thought cichlids were much more sensitive to water issues than reef fish?

Kind of stupid question I'm sure, but you mentioned a large water change, did you use any anti-chlorine/chloramine chemicals on the water? Or some sort of filtration to remove it?

[nematode]

I would be thinking of chloramine (especially in the summer when water districts are fighting algae blooms) , pH shock, or something (soap residue?) coming from one of the containers you used to transfer water.
Are these african or south american chiclids that we are talking about?
Where were the fish while you were putting in the backing.
For example, if these are south american and large they could have gotten a small holding tank pretty acidic in a few days. Tap water is usually at least neutral and often above pH 8. The south americans could easily have tolerated pH 5 in the holding tank and if moved to a new pH 8.5 freshly filled tank, it could be pH shock.

How long has it been since you have had the tank full of water?
I agree a test fish is the appropriate next step.

[disc1]

Really? No one thinks a 24 hour power outage might have something to do with fish dying and coral not. Perhaps the silicone was a coincidence? Perhaps the lack of water movement combined with still curing silicone? Maybe just the 24 hours without power by itself. Power loss has certainly been the demise of more than a few fish.

[KafudaFish]

The first thing I thought when I read the history was the silicone was still drying because the back ground was preventing good air exchange.

Did you still smell anything before you added water back?

Did you keep the tank wet while doing this and then just add the fish back or did you drain it 100%, dry it, fill it, drain it, fill it again?

Could your filters be the issue? Did you just leave them as is for the 3 days or did they continue to filter?

Finally regardless of what type of silicone you used it could be just as toxic as Nematode was suggesting.

[swearint]

Really? No one thinks a 24 hour power outage might have something to do with fish dying and coral not. Perhaps the silicone was a coincidence? Perhaps the lack of water movement combined with still curing silicone? Maybe just the 24 hours without power by itself. Power loss has certainly been the demise of more than a few fish.
No, I am pretty sure the OP did not experience a power outage. He was making the point that corals and fish behave differently to different situations.

Todd

[jpkrze]

Correct Todd. Did not have a power outage on this tank.

These were African cichlids being moved from their old 75gallon tank to a new 185g. Filters were only off for 30mins. Prime was used to de-chlorinate and this is what I always use during water changes. I believe this would also remove any ammonia being produced by the silicone cure as well.

When the background/silicone was curing there was a slight smell but not much since Silicone II does not use acetic acid curing. The tank was filled after 3 days curing, then drained and filled again before adding fish.

Silicone II DOES have mold inhibitor / Bio Seal in it. The problem is that it's not specifically called out on the label.

Just found a hardware store that had three tubes of GE Silicone I in Black left and I bought them. As much as I hate to redo the background/drain tank again I know I'll sleep better if I do.

FYI...also noticed on the Silicone I package its states "is compliant for incidental food contact". Silicone II does not state this.

[dknydiep]

I've heard of many others on the freshwater forums having issues with II as well. I've used I with absolutely no issues, so it's best to stick with what we know works.

[jeff@zina.com]

Some people say this stuff is ok to use but I would steer clear!
GE Silicone, whether I or II, is not toxic by default, they are just different curing mechanisms. You likely bought Silicone II with fungicidal additives, almost all consumer versions of GE Silicone II have them. Silicone I may or may not have them.

That said, don't you research? People have warned not to use Silicone II for at least three decades now...

Jeff

[jpkrze]

I did lots research but as you can see from reading this post...there is conflicting info out there. Some peple say its fine, others have shared my fate.

That is the real reason why I posted this. So other will clearly see that Silicone II is NOT SAFE to use in aquariums.

[disc1]

i did lots research but as you can see from reading this post...there is conflicting info out there. Some peple say its fine, others have shared my fate.

That is the real reason why i posted this. So other will clearly see that silicone ii is not always safe to use in aquariums.

ftfy

[biecacka]

Silicone 1 window door attic basement is what I used on my foam wall. No issues yet...
Crosses fingers
Corey

[luxtralarge]

I used GE II to fix leaks from time to time. Never had an issue. I did let it cure for a good few days though.

[Gorgok]

I am happy to say that I believe whatever (probably the methanol, as I can't test for it) killed a few snails seems to have passed.

[nematode]

Remember some GE I silicones do have mold inhibitors also, so it is not just a GE II risky GE I is not.

All the GE silicones (except for their specialized products for aquariums) have the warning "Not for use below the waterline, where FDA compliant is necessary, or aquariums". Many say the silicones are identical to the specialized products and this is all about liability. But ... certainly GE won't say this.

I think the basic issues are three fold
1) GE II (and more general neutral cure silicones) bind much better to non-glass surfaces so for people with DIY projects that use non-glass materials such as putting glass into an epoxy sealed wood tank (like me) or putting in plexiglass baffles, GE II provides for better strength.

2) Access to large tubes of aquarium grade acetic acid cure silicones locally is poor especially if one is looking for non-clear silicones (white or black). Even online finding large tubes of black sealant isn't easy.

3) I am not aware of an aquarium grade neutral cure silicone though there may be an FDA food grade neutral out there. If people have online sources for these it would be great to post them.
I certainly have no objection to using a product approved for aquariums (assuming the cost difference isn't huge), but finding it is the difficulty.


One last point. One option if you need a neutral cure silicone and are concerned would be to cover the layer of neutral with a layer of an aquarium grade acetic cured. Silicone binds to silicone pretty well when its freshly cured and this should act as a barrier to any potential long term toxic neutral silicone components.

[Zalick]

Just wanted to add my experience to this thread so future readers/googlers can be well informed.

I added 3 baffles to my 20g sump using 1/2 tube GE Silicone II Clear. It was NOT the kitchen and bath and had no mention of mildew inhibitor. I let it cure for a week so there was no smell and it was cured solid. I put the sump into operation at 9pm on a Saturday night. By 3pm Sunday my potters angel was swimming around like it was on drugs at the top of the water. Then it just lay on the bottom breathing. My two clowns also moved to a corner on the bottom and stayed there. All tests came up normal. No ammonia, nitrates or nitrites. PH 8.2. My damsel was te only fish that appeared ok. I started running carbon and a poly filter. I did a 50% WC at 7pm amd another 50% at midnight. By Monday night my potters and damsel died. One of my clowns was acting like it was on drugs and then lay on the bottom breathing but not swimming. I did a 30% WC Monday night. Tuesday night a 20% WC. Both my clowns are still laying on the bottom barely swimming. One ate some mysis today for the first time in 3 days.

The behavior, symptoms and death of my fish is too similar to the OP to be coincidence. The rapid decline with otherwise perfect water points conclusively to the GE silicone. I have since learned from a Dow rep that the silicone manufactures can change the chemicals based on supply so each batch could be different.

I would never trust GE silicone II with so much $$ in live stock. Will it always kill your fish? No. Will it kill your fish more frequently than aquarium safe silicone? Absolutely.

The bottle says not aquarium safe. This is not because the bond won't hold up under pressure but because the chemical makeup can poison your inhabitants.

Someone previously said not to spread misinformation because GE II worked for them. This is not misinformation. GE II fully cured can poison a tank and should be avoided unless you want to RISK nuking the tank.

[rrasco]

Kids drown in 1 inch of water??? What is wrong with you. How is that relevant or even socially appropriate to say.

I'm sure this was intended as an analogy to illustrate how even 'non-toxic' elements such as water can be toxic in the right circumstances. Perhaps it would have been more socially appropriate to say drinking enough water in a given period of elapsed time could prove lethal to a human.

FWIW, all the cichlid sites I've been a part of say to use GE I; so that's what I've always done without issue. Even on my reef tank...put a sump into use after about 24 hours or less. Same with my cichlid tanks. No issues for me.

[uncleof6]

Ok, this conversation or debate, has been rehashed it seems, almost, since the beginning of time. It is never resolved, and the sound sensible advice, that has been given, is generally ignored, or even further debated.

Is Silicone II toxic? Largely it is an unknown. Most likely, once cured, it is not anymore toxic than any other silicone.

It is however, a neutral cure or solvent based product. It releases an ammonia odor. It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

Silicone I, on the other hand, is an acetoxy cure product. It releases an acetic acid odor (vinegar.) It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

Since the beginning of time, the recommendation (regardless of the debates, and the "oh it will be fines",) for silicone in an aquarium application has been:

100% Silicone (most are)
Acetoxy Cure (some are some aren't)
FDA Approved for food contact

Why the FDA approval? Because it eliminates the possibility, (either real or imagined, depending on the particular product,) that the silicone will cause a problem in the tank. It is not that there are no products out there, that are NOT FDA approved, that are safe. It simply takes the guess work out of it. In this manner, the "mass kill-off" will not be related to the silicone, in any way other than insufficient cure time. Because any way you slice it, if it is not FULLY cured, it will kill your tank FDA approved or not. Allowing a week or more cure time eliminates even this variable.

Did the silicone kill off this particular tank? It is an unknown, could it have? Yes, considering the application, it is quite possible that it did not cure--especially in the center of the background. Or it could have been, since the tank should have been taken down, that the shock, when restarted, took out the tank. Or maybe, Silicone II is just toxic from the word go cured or not. But anecdotal information exists supporting BOTH sides of the question, so again it is an unknown.

Also,the labels on both GE I AND II, say not for use in aquariums, however, IIRC, the GE I label (or product information) now shows FDA approval. Be that as it may, the recommendation remains unchanged.

100% Silicone
Acetoxy Cure
FDA Approved ......

This eliminates the questions, and then there is only the question of using the right product for the application. No longer is it needed to ask "is this silicone safe in my tank" and variations thereof. Read the LABEL. Read the product information, you have to look for it sometimes. The MSDS does not tell you what you need to know. The tank builders will not tell you, the tank manufacturers will not tell you. Though, I do have inside information on that, and have posted it many many times. Sometimes the silicone manufacturer will tell you, sometimes they will not. However, if you take the basic advice, there is not going to be any questions, other than is Product A strong enough for the application, or would Product B, considering the application, be a better choice.

[Acrylics]

Ok, this conversation or debate, has been rehashed it seems, almost, since the beginning of time. It is never resolved, and the sound sensible advice, that has been given, is generally ignored, or even further debated.

Is Silicone II toxic? Largely it is an unknown. Most likely, once cured, it is not anymore toxic than any other silicone.

It is however, a neutral cure or solvent based product. It releases an ammonia odor. It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test. It's not just ammonia that gets released, there are other nasties as well.

I can't think of a case that I've personally seen or heard of in which the problem was not "user error."
People take a product that is not designed for the application at hand (meaning pretty much all directions are useless) then follow the useless instructions, then blame the product when problems arise. Simply can't do this and expect good results..

I don't know how many times I've said it, but a week at an absolute minimum for cure time - preferably 2 weeks+ for neutral cure silicones. To do otherwise is risking more and more problems, the user does so at their own risk.. And this isn't just for GEII but *all* neutral cure silicones. Globbing it on thicker and thicker and/or in unexposed areas increases these cure times.

Not trying to sound harsh..just the reality of it.. :)

James

[Floyd R Turbo]

I came across this thread via my local club. Very interesting info and good discussion.

Is the GE RTV100 series then considered safe?

According to the tech data sheet here:

http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection/Assets/10685.pdf

It meets #2 and #3 of Uncle's list, but the MSDS lists some fillers:

http://www.rosentrade.com/pdf/108%20msds.pdf

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Possibly just different types of silicone making up the 99.9% of it?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well then I found this on GE II and it looks about the same as far as %'s go

http://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=7011005

So I'm guessing that the RTV 100 series is the way to go for us DIYers at least. And then 2 week cure time. I've been saying 72 hours to fill test and then I assumed it was OK after that, but I guess I will change my advice ASAP.

[rrasco]

Pretty sure it's safe. People use RTV 108 (clear) and RTV 103 (black)....and I think it's been mentioned that's what a lot of manufacturers use. FWIW, I couldn't find GE RTV locally so I used Permatex RTV 10oz from AutoZone. I had not seen anyone use that before but even some fish places sell it for aquariums so I kind of took a gamble.

[tkeracer619]

People have warned not to use Silicone II for at least three decades now...




^^^ this. Better research would have saved you a serious headache.

In the future when there are conflicting experiences change paths and use something that doesn't have conflicting experiences.

[DeathWish302]

I came across this thread via my local club. Very interesting info and good discussion.

Is the GE RTV100 series then considered safe?

According to the tech data sheet here:

http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection/Assets/10685.pdf

It meets #2 and #3 of Uncle's list, but the MSDS lists some fillers:

http://www.rosentrade.com/pdf/108%20msds.pdf

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Possibly just different types of silicone making up the 99.9% of it?

Go to grainger and get product code UHC-110 and/or UHC-105 (not sure if this is correct for clear).
It's made by Momentive works fine for $10 a tube.

I've used all the HD & Lowe's 100% silicones with no fungicide additives and have only recently started using the Momentive product due to a much better experience with general performance. I will state I have a 20gal long that has been in operation for nearly 7 yrs with the GE TypeI product. I can't state it's the same formula as today, but it's worked with no problems and no deaths.

I've discussed this with Uncle over many threads, but what it came down to was a $5 savings was not worth the risk of recipe changes in the future and the investment once I started getting into the high $$$ corals and clowns. Listen to uncle's advice on the 'Rule of 3'.

[Floyd R Turbo]

In the future when there are conflicting experiences change paths and use something that doesn't have conflicting experiences.

Great statement!!

Go to grainger and get product code UHC-110 and/or UHC-105 (not sure if this is correct for clear).
It's made by Momentive works fine for $10 a tube.

I came across that brand as well, it looks the same as GE for less (and the MSDS is almost identical).

Thanks to all!

[uncleof6]

editing

[uncleof6]

Go to grainger and get product code UHC-110 and/or UHC-105 (not sure if this is correct for clear).
It's made by Momentive works fine for $10 a tube.




These product codes are no good. They draw a blank.
The product codes are: 4UH12 translucent, or 4UH10 for the black.

Great statement!!



I came across that brand as well, it looks the same as GE for less (and the MSDS is almost identical).

Thanks to all!

The MSDS does not contain the information that you really need to know. lol The info that is pertinent is in the product data sheet.

However, GE RTV100 series, and Momentive RTV100 series, are not different products made by different companies. It is the same product, made by the same company. GE Silicone Division was bought out by Momentive Performance Materials in 1996. It is taking a long time to change the labeling.

The two silicones to use are Momentive RTV100 (103 or 108) and SCS1200. SCS1200 is more bubble prone than the RTV, though it is a bit stronger.

It is really rather simple, and I have said it a thousand times, if I said it once. When in doubt, is it FDA approved? If not move on to the next one, or just use the two that are listed above. They are the two strongest out there that I have run across yet.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Uncle, I get this on scs-1200

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?sku=38201


The SCS-1000 One Part Silicone has excellent adhesion and is for general glazing and sealing. Tensile strength is 320 psi and the cure time is 5 to 7 days. It is not for structural glazing, bathrooms, concrete surface or below water. The SCS-1200 High Silicone Content is for premium structural applications. It has a high tensile strength of 450 psi. It, too, has excellent adhesion and a fast cure time of 5 to 7 days. It is waterproof and can be used inside or out, on metal, wood, plastic, and glass.

??

[uncleof6]

Uncle, I get this on scs-1200

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?sku=38201



??

Specifically SCS1201 translucent or 1203 black. The 1000 is weaker than the RTV100 series. 320 psi as opposed to 400 psi.

US Plastics likes to make it complicated, by combining the description. Make sure you get the right product.

This you may find this interesting.

http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection/Assets/10418.pdf

Look specifically under limitations. The only acknowledgment of aquarium use, I have seen in GE (Momentive) literature.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Sweet - thanks!

[Jamesjkl]

^^^ this. Better research would have saved you a serious headache.

In the future when there are conflicting experiences change paths and use something that doesn't have conflicting experiences.

if you are referring to things conflicting on the internet or on the boards we can use nothing then everyone has a tit for a tat or your good killed my fish:wildone:

[DeathWish302]

These product codes are no good. They draw a blank.
The product codes are: 4UH12 translucent, or 4UH10 for the black.

Sorry buddy, your right.... I checked last night and for some reason a sticker was placed on the back of the tube with that code and I was referring to it.

Regardless, the RTV100 series is worth the drive to Grainger and additional cost.

[gmate]

GE Silicone I clear, been in-tank for securing my DIY foam rockwall to my corner 55g bowfront for over a month and my reef is thriving like crazy. Highly recommend it in the future. Sorry for any loss you've had.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8896/photoebf.jpg

[slumpysix]

It sucks to read about these things happening. I used GE 1 in a sump once and after 6 months turned yellow. I made a switch of sumps to remove the bad stuff. I have used the small tubes that are for aquarium use from HD in sumps and has held up well, and would not recommend it for anything other than baffles in a sump. I had a debate about this very issue on here awhile ago but it made me search and search to find out the truth and not use certain products in the tanks...

[tkeracer619]

if you are referring to things conflicting on the internet or on the boards we can use nothing then everyone has a tit for a tat or your good killed my fish:wildone:


If a bunch of people said they used XYZ and it killed all of their fish then you should stay away from that product especially since there are many more options readily available. That is all I am saying.

FWIW my 360g and sump are made with GE1. I would follow uncleof6's advice and get the proper silicone if I were to do it again but GE1 will hold a tank together no problem (as long as the tank itself is proper).

[Jamesjkl]

If a bunch of people said they used XYZ and it killed all of their fish then you should stay away from that product especially since there are many more options readily available. That is all I am saying.

FWIW my 360g and sump are made with GE1. I would follow uncleof6's advice and get the proper silicone if I were to do it again but GE1 will hold a tank together no problem (as long as the tank itself is proper).

I see what you are saying but there are as many saying that they used the the product safely as say it killed things who do you believe. I agree if the majority say no they are probably right.

I have used both in tanks before both fresh and salt and not had any problems but i did not use as much only 6-10 inches of 1/4 bead never near a tube so maybe I just made them unwell or there is a threshold amount used at one time or much longer cure times I'm never in a hurry well almost never.

[crabbygirl]

After a great deal of heartache this weekend, I feel the need to put my thoughts in about this product. I moved my well established cube filled with my seahorses over to a new Illuminata this weekend. The tank ran without the sump for two days and the inhabitants where thriving. Saturday my husband glued the baffles into my new sump using GE Silicone 2 and he glued them well! The sump was allowed to cure for 24 hours before filling. Sunday afternoon the sump was turned on. By evening time the corals were retracting and the seahorses weren't eating. By morning I had a dead seahorse, brittle stars, snails, bristle worms and corals. The remaining seahorses were struggling. There have been two complete water changes on the main tank and sump has been removed. I still have creatures showing up dead from the rock. I don't yet know if my rock will be safe to use...ever. What I do know is that I poisoned my tank with this product. Were there areas that hadn't finished curing....don't know? What make me very upset is the packaging of this product. It states that it is 100 percent silicone in big bold print on the front. It doesn't state that in has mildew inhibitors in it until you get to the tiny print on the back. It also states on the back that it should not be used below the water line or in aquariums.
Over the course of the week I am watching my beautiful seahorses die one by one and feeling horribly guilty knowing that I should have stopped and read the tiny print all the way to the bottom.
I have thrown away all the sand in the refugium as well as the sump itself knowing that we won't be able to get rid of all the caulk. Are there any thoughts if this rock can be used?

[Floyd R Turbo]

If you read post #39 by Acrylics, he states that you should wait 2 weeks to allow any silicone to fully cure. This was likely your primary downfall. Even using the GE RTV 108 you should let it fully cure.

Even when re-sealing an aquarium, the general rule of thumb is to wait 72 hours before you do a fill test. 24 hours is just not enough, no matter what.

[rrasco]

I've filled a tank after 24 hours using GE I. However, I generally don't try to do that, but I have done it a time or two.

Although, I don't think cure time was crabbygirl's issue, it was most likely the mildew inhibitors. But to clarify, she stated GE II is toxic, which may be true, but the results of her anecdote are skewed because she used one with a mildew inhibitor, something we already recognize as toxic. So what should have been stated was that GE Silicone II with mildew inhibitors is toxic, which once again, we already know.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh I didn't notice that she mentioned that it had mildew inhibitors on the label...speed reading accident

[uncleof6]

I've filled a tank after 24 hours using GE I. However, I generally don't try to do that, but I have done it a time or two.

Although, I don't think cure time was crabbygirl's issue, it was most likely the mildew inhibitors. But to clarify, she stated GE II is toxic, which may be true, but the results of her anecdote are skewed because she used one with a mildew inhibitor, something we already recognize as toxic. So what should have been stated was that GE Silicone II with mildew inhibitors is toxic, which once again, we already know.


Except for one problem, the "mildew inhibitor" is rather something of a myth, because silicone is mildew resistant already. Advertising trickery. In looking at MSDS information, there is nothing in the formulation that can be traced as being a mildew inhibitor, nor are there any "secret" proprietary ingredients. Silicon spray is used in agriculture as a mildew preventative for grape leaves.

What is clear with certainty, is that ANY uncured silicone, will kill off your tank. The thick silicone beads most often used in aquariums, are not going to cure in 24 hours, maybe not even in 72 hours. Hence we say 2 weeks.

It is all too easy, to use a silicone that is FDA approved for food contact, and then there is no longer a debate over the subject. It seems that the simplest solutions, continually get challenged, and folks want, for no reason in particular, to prove the simple solution is not the best solution--or they simply do not want to admit they did not follow the recommendations.

Sitting on the shelf, right next to the Silicone II, are tubes of Silicone I, FDA approved. Common sense alone says "hey grab the Silicone I, whether Silicone II is toxic or not, whether it has 'mildew inhibitors' in it or not!" The only issue beyond that, is what exactly is the product suitable for, being a consumer grade sealant, rather than an industrial grade adhesive. As long as people keep saying they used silicone II for years, and no issues, and another feels the silicone II killed off their tank, the debate is going to continue.

I won't post the recommendations again in this thread, been posted too many times already.

[rrasco]

I agree with that completely. I never tried the methods that give people problems because, well, they give people problems. Fact is, I probably never had issues because I wasn't laying down thick beads.

[Khemul]

I think the whole "mold and mildew inhibitor" idea comes from years ago. GE Silicone II used to advertise a special mold and mildew inhibitor in it. As far as I know they haven't advertised that in years but it was at one point a big difference in labeling between Silicone I and Silicone II.

Also while we are correcting common mistakes, "100% silicone" doesn't quite mean what people think. People are commonly told "if it says 100% silicone then you are okay". That just means it is silicone. It doesn't mean that silicone is the only ingredient.



Unfortunately in crabbygirl's case it could well have been the curing process. Silicone II appears to be much less forgiving then Silicone I in that regards. Ideally giving the silicone as much time as possible to cure is best. Silicone I has a much better track record for people who only allow 24 hours. Silicone II seems to be more likely to nuke a tank if it isn't given plenty of time to cure (maybe as a result of the difference curing methods). Granted, as uncleof6 pointed out, any uncured silicone can easily nuke a tank.

[jimmyj7090]

It's not just ammonia that gets released, there are other nasties as well.

I can't think of a case that I've personally seen or heard of in which the problem was not "user error."
People take a product that is not designed for the application at hand (meaning pretty much all directions are useless) then follow the useless instructions, then blame the product when problems arise. Simply can't do this and expect good results..

I don't know how many times I've said it, but a week at an absolute minimum for cure time - preferably 2 weeks+ for neutral cure silicones. To do otherwise is risking more and more problems, the user does so at their own risk.. And this isn't just for GEII but *all* neutral cure silicones. Globbing it on thicker and thicker and/or in unexposed areas increases these cure times.

Not trying to sound harsh..just the reality of it.. :)

James

Neutral cure silicone ='s type II. This post explains virtually all of the horror stoires including Crabbygirl's.

Sorry for your losses Crabby :(

[crabbygirl]

Yep, sounds like a total lack of knowledge and experience on our behalf. I'll brush myself off and be grateful that I have a mess of baby seahorses in another tank and restock! Sooooo...the question is, can my live rock be used again after several rinses or is it best to shuck it and start over.

[uncleof6]

I don't think any of us can answer that crabbygirl. Short of testing for some exotic chemicals that would be out of the scope of this hobby. Just as with any pollutant, dilution is the solution to pollution. I would want to cook it for a while at the least.

[jimmyj7090]

As just about always I agree with him ^

I will say this but take it with many grains of salt....
Yrs ago I made the same mistake and used GE II when putting baffles in a sump, only cured the silicone about 48 hrs before installing the sump. In my case most of my tank seemed to get stressed out and I lost a single clam, but by the time I realized what I had done wrong everything but the clam seemed to have recovered and I ended up leaving the sump in service. As far as I could tell everything was OK from then on. I don't know if whatever nasties were completely gone, or if they were simply diluted enough not to cause any further losses. Whatever the case, I kept my rock and as far as I know there was no long term effect stemming from the exposure to neutral cure silicone still curing.

Whatever you do, of course be very cautious. I would definately run some/lots of activiated carbon on whatever is left of that tank.

[crabbygirl]

Okay, thanks for the help! We have rinsed, rinsed and rinsed the rock, since it's the only thing left alive in the tank we'll give it a go. Even the bristle worms and the polyclad worm I haven't seen in 5 years are dead, so I'll be starting new. I'll be running a carbon cannister and some poly filters for awhile and then I'll put in a couple of snails and saltwater mollies in as a test run. I have lost the remaining seahorses this morning and I will count this as one of life's teaching moments:(

[SeedlessOne]

So I'm lost. Why would anyone not just buy the aquarium safe silicone that is sold at hd or lowes? Not sure why even bother with I or II.

[rrasco]

So I'm lost. Why would anyone not just buy the aquarium safe silicone that is sold at hd or lowes? Not sure why even bother with I or II.

They typically don't carry 'aquarium safe' silicone in the cartridges for a caulking gun. I've personally only ever seen the small tubes at those stores. It is also usually more expensive if it's labeled 'aquarium safe'. Not to mention you can get a higher quality silicone in RTV.

[jimmyj7090]

So I'm lost. Why would anyone not just buy the aquarium safe silicone that is sold at hd or lowes? Not sure why even bother with I or II.


I've never seen a structural adhesive silicone that would be adequate for building a tank at HD, Lowes, or a LFS (all that I have read about silicones re-branded by aquarium mfgs indicates that they are simple sealants and not the stuff that they actually use to build tanks).

[uncleof6]

So I'm lost. Why would anyone not just buy the aquarium safe silicone that is sold at hd or lowes? Not sure why even bother with I or II.

This issue has a few facets. The first one is understanding what "aquarium safe" actually means. The second is "what are these products" The third one is anecdote.

"Aquarium Safe" says that the product is FDA approved for food contact areas. That is all it says. It is not an indication of the suitability of the product for the intended application.

What are these products? They are consumer grade sealants. Meaning that they will seal things very well, and that is the extent of it.

Although the labeled "aquarium safe" products are made by Dow Chemical (Both Aqueon/AGA and DAP version,) they are very similar in properties to GE Silicone I, so they can be used interchangeably.

They are all 1-part, Acetoxy cure, 100% Silicone, FDA approved for use in food contact areas.

A word about "100% Silicone"--not all products are 100% silicone. Some are a graft copolymers. One being a graft copolymer of dimethylpolysiloxane and acrylic polymer, the cured product having properties of both silicone and acrylic resin.

Anecdote is what it is. Though the recommendation is very simple and clear, there is never a shortage of well meaning people to argue the merits of altering the recommendation, whether it is a question of cost, convenience, or just wanting to convince others that the recommendation itself, does not have merit. Hence people still grab the tubes of Silicone II or want to build a 240 gallon aquarium with Silicone I--or the DAP/Aqueon/AGA silicone.

[Chrome239]

I resealed a 90 about a year ago. Thought I had grabbed 3 tubes of Silicone 1, turns out there was 2 tubes of silicone 2 mixed in. I sealed the tank, waited about 1 month. Filled it, added some corals about 2 weeks later. The corals opened for about 20 minutes and never opened again. Added 1 fish, it was dead 24 hours later.
Spent about 3 days trying to figure out what was going on. Went out to the garage grabbed the caulk gun, and saw the GE2.
Tore the tank down, resealed with GE1, have had no troubles since. The GE2 said absolutely no where on the tube that it contained mildew or mold inhibitors.

Would never recommend GE2 to any one.

[chippwalters]

Just had a brand new sump made and used GE Silicon II to attach the drain line and let it cure for 12 hrs before running water through it. I thought it was reef safe based on others experiences (didn't read this thread) and it completely nuked everything in my tank, including bristle worms, all snails and hermits, all fish, all corals and all invertebrates. I hope the $250 I spent on LR isn't lost as well.

I originally thought it was something else and kept doing water changes, thinking I could salvage something/anything. My last fish died today. I'm sad-- and ****ed. FWIW, the title of this thread is exactly true, and just because SOMEONE SOMETIME IN THE PAST got it to work-- doesn't mean others should even try.

Anyone saying GE II is okay to use is like saying its okay for little kids to cross busy intersections because they know one that made it. Just ridiculous.

[jimmyj7090]

GE II needs MUCH longer to cure. That's what happened.

Neutral cure silicone is not evil, but it does need it's proper cure time. (IIRC more like a week or two, not 12 hours)

[sfsuphysics]

I love me some Dow 795, sticks to glass, acrylic, PVC, great stuff! Only downside is you can't pick this stuff on the fly at Home Depot.