take foam wall off?
 

Ok, I have the foam walls siliconed to the tank walls. I am already to put sand and water in. Then a buddy who owns a lfs calls me and tells me that he has a guy who wants to buy a 180 as in now. I have a standard 180. My buddy says he has a 220. So, my current tank is 6'x24"x24". The 220 is 6'x30'tallx24". I have the height to put the tank on the current stand without having to modify it. I would have to expand the hole in the wall but not a big issue. The biggest problem I see is this. Can I get the foam walls off of the glass without busting them all to hell and back? Is there an easier way to get them off? Thoughts? I really want the extra 6" in height of the tank.

Also, would three 250w mh work for a tank that is 30" tall with a 2 inch sand bed? Or would I need to go with 400w mh? I am planning on a mixed reef.

I'm assuming that it will be an in-wall tank accessible from the back only (covered in foam)? I really like the height on mine, but cleaning/maintenance/frag rescues, etc. in a 30" tall aquarium can br quite a chore. Anyhow, have you considered selling the tank as is?

Yes, it is in-wall. I will have access from the back and both sides. I am 6ft 1, with long arms. Yes, thought of that today. I put my buddy, the lfs owner on that task. But, if that does not come to fruition, I was wondering if anyone has removed the foam walls from a tank before and the best way to do that.

I just heard fiberglass resin can be toxic to fish, I used it 3 years ago when I did a full foam wall build with no ill effects. I'm on my second build, should I change the resin or can I continue to use fiberglass resin?

I went with a 2 part Marine Epoxy with no problems. Can't say on the resin, sorry.

This is the epoxy they sell at my local HD. How do I know if it is reef safe?
<a href="http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/?action=view&amp;current=IMG_0750.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/IMG_0750.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Here are pics of my rock walls still under construction.
<a href="http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/?action=view&amp;current=IMG_0749.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/IMG_0749.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/?action=view&amp;current=DSC_0048.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/DSC_0048.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Here's some pics of my most recent foam rock work I did for a local reefer who is setting up a coldwater tank with it. He has a thread going that on here I believe in the tanks section.

Not one piece of real rock was used in the making of this.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...410_225800.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...410_225727.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...410_225848.jpg

Here's pics of it at his house now.
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/...s/_DSC3586.jpg
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/...s/_DSC3589.jpg
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/...s/_DSC3588.jpg

And now pics with some of the livestock I got for him in it.
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/...s/_DSC3620.jpg

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/...s/_DSC3594.jpg

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/...s/_DSC3626.jpg

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/...s/_DSC3632.jpg

For all foam rock wall DIY, I have noted that a few have removed the smooth part of the pond foam. I did the same yesterday with large needle nose plyers ripping out chucks. The results are amazing because the texture of the foam underneath looks more like natural rock work than if left alone, which I see in many of the projects. I haven't even added sand to the foam and it blends in with the surrounding rock work. I highly recommend this step in finishing your walls because it is easy to tell those who have done this and those who have not.

I"m wondering of those who have built their wall with the black Pond Foam, will it stand up without the epoxy coating in a marine environment?

PVC cement glue
 

Great thread very helpful.

I have a new spin on things that might save a lot of money on epoxy and sand application to these projects.

Has anyone tried using the pond foam for obvious reasons (UV protection) and then instead of epoxy just use the PVC cement (the food grade one in a white and gold can I think) to apply the sand. We are already using this stuff in our plumbing with no I'll effects so I don't see why this wouldn't work for this application and just toss the sand on top it.

Any thoughts on this idea or has anyone tried this yet?



I am waiting to start a 150 (60x24x25) with custom stand and canopy. Probably will open a thread for full build once I take it out of my garage and start it.

Trying to show photos of my foam after tearing out chunks. Never done this before. Hope you can see the detail compared to the expanded/smooth foam. Rock walls are great in hiding pvc returns or closed loops.

Ya, the texture from tearing it up definitely looks better than the glossy smooth stuff.

Thank you for the inspiration...
 

Here is my foam/rock/sand combo;) for my 130gallon tank...
I used black foam and I noticed that if you left foam out in the sun it became dark grey whit irregular patterns.
So I had mine out for 2 days and the foam is less obvious now, but I allso used some sand.
The holes are for my Tunze pumps and I plan to make covers for the ones that wont be in use.

as anyone tried using the pond foam for obvious reasons (UV protection) and then instead of epoxy just use the PVC cement (the food grade one in a white and gold can I think) to apply the sand. We are already using this stuff in our plumbing with no I'll effects so I don't see why this wouldn't work for this application and just toss the sand on top it.

Any thoughts on this idea or has anyone tried this yet?

Good idea here, but a heads up because I did it too. I ran the cords to my Tunze behind my foam wall and now I can't move them as stuff grows out not can I remove the pumps to clean them or anything.

My foam wall is getting coralline growing on it finally!
:)
Corey

Hey biecacka, how long did the coraline take to get started on the foam areas?

I guess I can assume no one has tried PVC cement instead of epoxy? Does anyone know are all hobby shop 2 part epoxy good to use, or I have heard of a product called z poxy finishing resin, does anyone have expierence with this? Or has anyone tried just 100% silicone to put the sand on? 100% silicone is reef safe right?

Sorry for all the questions just don't want to take a uninformed risk.

it took a few months, it just showed up one day on there and it is slowly filling it in. its not covered yet but its looking better.
what do you want to use the epoxy or PVC cement for?
corey

I did suspect something like this might become an issue so I planed ahead.
The pumps can be removed thru an opening in the top of the foam-wall, with room to spare.

Here is photo of addition of first coat of sand to the torn up foam between the dry rock. The sand is lighter in color than most of the actual rock. Plan to add a 2nd and 3rd coats of sand to fill in where sand did not adhere.

You might also consider having a additional pump in the sump or a closed loop with an external pump and the return built into the foam rock wall. This way the pump is always accessible. As you can see I have hidden 2 pvc pipes in my wall and could easily had one to return water in the middle of the wall.

I was thinking due to the high cost of the epoxy and nobody knowing which one is "100%" reef safe over time, that you could use PVC cement or GE 100% silicone I door/window which have both been proven to be reef safe and a ton cheaper than epoxy.

What products have been used to apply the sand to the foam successfully with no Ill effects?

How much of a time window is there to pack in the salt before the foam becomes too hard? I am tring to figure out the best way to build up a wall for a 7 foot tank :worried:

Yes. I've had mine in a 200 gallon for over a year and its doing fine.

A few minutes usually. Depends on how thick you spray the foam. I like to do mine in sections. The last one I did I used a dry erase marker on the acrylic to outline where I wanted the structure since I was doing it directly onto the tank. I then used rock salt as a barrier to prevent foam from creeping out of the areas I wanted it. Some places I would let it expand a bit first then apply it. In areas that I wanted the "rock" to be thicker I would just let it expand completely without any rock salt and then come back after it set completely and do another layer of foam on top of it just to adhere the rock salt and give it texture.

I've also tried making several small pieces on eggcrate ahead of time and texturing both sides, then adhering them all together in the tank and texturing the foam used to adhere them together.

Also did a giant structure for a local stores coldwater display out of just spray foam with a huge cave inside the front of it. (Eventually for a juvenile Wolf Eel if I can convince them) I prefabbed the structure with egg crate and then disassembled it and textured each piece. Then zip tied it all back together added some counter weight rock, and spray foamed it to the bottom of their tank. This is what they ended up with.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...218_130722.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...218_130657.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...218_130706.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...218_130644.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...213_155513.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...213_155539.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...213_155500.jpg

How are people with acrylic tanks adhering this to the back of there tank? I know silicon doesn't work well on acrylic.
I was thinking about placing magnets on the egg-crate and then foaming over them, then use another on the back of the tank and hopefully with the weight of the live rock it would stay in place, this would also make it a lot easier to remove for any reason.
Any thoughts on this?

I sprayed mine right onto the acrylic. Not going anywhere :D

AE:

Those rocks are really natural looking and your friend is lucky to have you do the work.

I have done DIY cement rocks serveral times but if I set up another tank I was thinking of going this method.

So just to recap your method:

1. Outline where you don't want the foam to expand by building a rock salt barrier.
2. Spray on, if thinner rock pack the salt on.
3. If thicker, let it expand, spray another layer on and pack it into the second.

Any other tips?
Is there one brand of foam that you feel works better than another?

For comparison and an alternative, here is my finished foam rock wall. As you can see in my initial photos, I used more rock and less foam. One advantage is that it won't float. Second, unless you are very creative/artistic like AE above, the dry rock is real and looks real.

Question for AE, do you leave the foam rock black to be covered in Coralline algae or do you cover it with sand?

For all the Foam Rock wall people - here are some after thoughts after building my 230G reef using this technique and having to tear it down completely after 4 years of running.

1. Coraline coverage and general life on the wall was simply amazing - The quality of coverage was unbelievable after 4 years.

2. Did I notice a improvement in the nitrogen cycle due to the vast surface area in comparison to my other systems? ABSOLUTELY! Water quality, and the buffering stability was phenomenal compared to past systems. I had SPS growing out of control, and PE was supurb.

3. The overall visual affect was astonishing...

Now for the bad?!?!

After tearing the wall out of the tank I noticed that the foam had super absorbed the water and after the tank was drained, we couldn't lift it with 4 REALLY BIG GUYS because the foam had water trapped inside of it. The tank weighed about 250 lbs without the wall; with the wall dry, it was around 350lbs and was easily moved back onto the stand after building it. After it was drained? AT LEAST 700 lbs or more. Like I said, 4 guys couldn't move the thing once it was drained; hence the reason we had to tear out the wall (which wasn't very fun BTW, all that silicone I used to affix it to the back really keep it in place).

So my question naturally; How much does this really affect the reef environment in the tank over a period of time?

The tank eventually crashed because of a non-stoppable cyano bacteria growth, on top of a culurpa prolifera invasion, it simply became time to shut it down and start over.

I did battle PO4 issues non-stop... Eventually I was using a 3.5lbs of the highest grade GFO money could buy every 3 months- not a very cheap expense I might add... Not to mention how much of a PITA changing the media is, even with a good reactor like a GEO, it is still a serious chore to change the media on a monthly or bi-weekly basis.

The PO4 problem source could have been a direct result of the base rock I choose to build the wall with. I am actually going to send some of the base-rock samples to a lab and have them analyzed (samples before used, and after torn down being in the environment for 4 years) so hopefully I will have more info on that soon...

Still trying to decide how to approach the new tank... Van Lines just delivered it last week, a brand new 280 Gallon Acrylic which was custom built by a shop in Dublin, OH.. :)

Thanks for relaying your experience.
What rock did you use and what foam did you use?
What about the rest of your rock?

I too wonder what the long term effects of this foam is.

The baserock was some that I found online, it was rather orangish in color. It covered well with coraline at least.

I used the black UV resistant pond foam.

Thanks for this interesting point.

Would applying a few coats of epoxy to the foam seal it and keep the foam from absorbing the tank water? I would expect the water in the foam would not get any oxygen. Would this cause the foam/water to become toxic? Anyone had any experience with the superabsorbed foam/water?

Wondering if I should apply 3rd and 4th coats of epoxy to the foam. Fortunately, I have more rock than foam.

My first thought is that the rock wasn't prepared (bleach bath followed by acid bath) but it's curious that it too so long for their to be a problem. Also interesting how the foam sucked up the water. Does this mean the foam broke down over time? Did the foam act like a giant sponge not only for water but all the nasty bacteria and junk we normally find in undisturbed sand beds?
I too wonder if it can be sealed.
There are also commercially available rock walls ala Universal Rocks. I wonder how theirs differs.

From my experience with the foam/rock wall, even coating the backside of the egg-crate with epoxy is not going to stop water from getting in, esp. if you "utilize" the wall for it's intended purpose; by this I mean, poke frag plugs into it to start cultures on the wall, etc... That is one source of the water getting in, the other source is simply the rocks attached to the egg-crate... I didn't coat my rockwork at all when I built the wall, only the foam portions, granted the edge of the rockwork did get coated with the epoxy but the rocks are porous, they have holes in them, etc.

The bottom line is; in order to completely water seal the wall would be extremely challenging to say the least, even coating the back with multiple coats of epoxy didn't fair too well.

Keep in mind this was a concern BEFORE I built the wall, and others (myself included) did the extra work try and minimize the water logging effect, but like I said, after 4 years of "being used" it simply became completely water logged even with the extra effort being applied. I am not saying it is impossible to make it completely water tight, but it would be very tedious and time consuming... plus, once you would start to add frag's and such, you might as well just throw out all that extra work... the water WILL get in as soon as you poke that plug into the wall...

That being said, the real Q really is how much does that affect the reef environment over time. As mentioned, I had amazing success with this tank, but, it only stayed up and running for 4 years and did eventually crash.

The foam did not break down at all. I used the Touch n' Foam Landscape BLACK foam...

It super absorbed the water much like a sponge would, but like i said, it didnt break down at all [I had very intense HID lighting & Fluorescent over it, no break down]

Ya, sorry... i was thinking more breaking down internally.
Either way, we know it sucked up water. I guess the question is, can it be sealed to prevent this.
Which brings another thought... did you coat everything with epoxy like people seem to be doing?
Or do people only do that on the non-uv safe stuff?

The short answer to your Q: No, IMO there is absolutely no way to make it 100% water tight; as I said, simply poking a frag plug into the wall opens up an area for water to get in... The dry side of the foam seems to be fairly water impervious in itself--even without the epoxy--but spray some of that stuff once, let it dry and then poke a hole in it, you will see how the foam is layered, and how easy it would be for water to enter in. Even if you DIDNT plug frags into the wall, I would say its safe to assume that water is going to get in somewhere, somehow (burrowing critters, etc)...

And as I mentioned, extra effort was applied for this build to try and minimize this, which means we used a TON of epoxy :) I used Max ACR - which is a very hard drying aquarium construction 2-part epoxy resin and let it cure for over 2 weeks before we started to fill the tank.

Just for reference, here is a shot of the tank before it crashed...

Here are some pics from the build......

Some pics of the wall after tearing it out

These pieces were the end pieces and were the only part of the wall that didnt get siliconed in, they were glued in, which came right off when pulling on the pieces, the pieces that were silconed in; well lets just say my garbage man really hated me last month :)

I have epoxied/sanded my rock wall including the backside (egg crate/foam). It seems to be pretty hard. I can't see where anything could burrow into the foam where the surface has 3 coats of epoxy. I am planning to apply 2 more coats of epoxy to all the exposed foam (front and back). Is the base rock porous enough to allow water into the foam where it contacts the rock? I will not be applying much silicone to attach to the back tank wall since my rock wall is very heavy and will not float.

Here are a few pics of my internal foam rock wall divider/overflow.... Did not use any real rock, but plan on covering with coral.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2180866

Here is a pic of the tunnel work behind my rock wall. This post is a test of my new photobucket account.

<a href="http://s1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/?action=view&amp;current=2012-06-25225122.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/2012-06-25225122.jpg" border="0" alt="Rockwall 1"></a>

Thanks :D Its messy but its fun, always cool to see what structures you get once all the rock salt is gone :D

To add to the tips you got already on there, I would just have fun with it. I started premaking flat pieces with egg crate by cutting a flat shape I wanted and covering one side with a single layer of foam and rock salting on top of that. The single layer drys pretty quick (20 minutes) and then you can flip it over and foam and texture the other side.

Once I had a bunch of pieces like this you can start to stack them together and foam in the gaps and them texture the filled gaps. Made some pretty cool structures with this technique. Lots of pillars with tons of ledges. Great for a center piece in a cube tank. Then just adhered it with foam to the bottom of the tank and textured the foam that squirted out.

I do neither :D

I use a 1 part expoxy paint that is used to coat garage floors. It never comes off the foam and you can give the foam a two tone look very easily with the black foam and a grey coloration to look like the native rock found on the Oregon coast. I played around with tinting the white base epoxy paint with purples and greens to make a more "tropical" looking rock, but I dont have any tropical tanks just coldwater marine tanks now so I never finished it.

Hey guys, I decided not to do a foam rock wall so now i have 8 cans of foam just sitting here. It's the Touch N Foam Landscape. UV resistant. PM me. I'd like to get rid of it all at once.

Hello,

Your tunnels will be cool when finished:) How do you do the opening's laying flat won't they get closed off with foam?

When you start foaming when do you add the salt for best look and deepest penatration? Anyone:)

For my tunnels I cut a hole in th pipe or cut the end off, then stack my rocks in such a way you cant see the pipe from any angle from the front glass. Then I removed the rocks, being careful to remember how they were stacked. Then pack the tube and the cave area with damp sand, restack the rocks, and foam inbetween them. While the foam is still expanding I would then pile damp sand ontop of the entire area, which I found to keep the foam from expandind and make it quite hard. Wait thirty minutes or so and vacume all the sand out with a dedicated shop vac, so I could reuse the sand. Also using arragonite sand in this way puts the first coat of sand on the foam, if it is applied while the foam is still tacky. I will post a few picks of the near finishe wall in a bit.

Hope this helps,
Ed

So from inspiration from this thread I put this together this weekend and am currently trimming the foam and adding epoxy and sand for a cleaner look. That is my wifes laptop in the fore ground for size. It is super heavy and I am curious how I am going to get it in the tank. I wanted it to be free standing and the pond foam worked out pretty well even though I went a bit crazy with it.

Here is a pic of the back
<a href="http://s1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/?action=view&amp;current=cavepic.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/cavepic.jpg" border="0" alt="cave pic"></a>

and one detailing the cave and tunnel network
<a href="http://s1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/?action=view&amp;current=cavenetworkjpg-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/cavenetworkjpg-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

You guy's are doing some great stuff with your foam walls. I have been going back and fourth for a year about foaming. If done right it gives such a better looking reef to me:)
Reading most everyones builds help make the choice easy!
I will be building mine on 5 panels of pvc structure covered in egg create. Frames are built now just stuck on which rock Pukani or Macro:)
Thanks for sharing everyone!!!

Not a good picture of my 300 but gives the idea of fram work.
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/...4/IMG_0277.jpg

Aquatron, just a thought but I used reefrocks.net for most of my rockwall. Steve there is great as he will hand select the size you need. Plus the price with free sand the deal cant be beat. If you plan to use epoxy and sand, having a large quantity of sand makes the project easyer IMO.

Either way glad to see someone else joining the rockwall movement. Much agreed that a rockwall can add to the realism of the reef aquarium.

Good luck, and keep us posted with pics,
Ed

Just noticed a bad link on my second pic above. Here it is again, cave tunnel detail
<a href="http://s1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/?action=view&amp;current=cavenetwork.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w390/NeptunesTender/cavenetwork.jpg" border="0" alt="cavenetwork"></a>