DIY Live rock - the truth?

Jomega · 04/27/2012, 08:04 AM

Hi there guys

I had just a question as I currently have a discus tank at present, but will be converting to reef in 6 months when I move house. I have become obsessed with this awesome hobby, and the marine world seems incredible.
I have been reading forum after forum and have watched countless videos, as im trying to educate myself before i get into the nitty gritty of a reef setup.

I have a couple of questions regarding DIY live rock vs LR

People have shown that DIY live rock can be reef safe, porous and lightweight.

But, in the long term ( a couple of years, or indefinitely )

Can it match the filtration capabilities of live rock if seeded properly?
Can it support aerobic and anaerobic filtration to get nitrates down?
Can it be seen as a viable substitute from LR?
What is the low down dirty truth about well made DIY live rock?

I have seen some people display the porousness of their DIY live rock, whilst i ahve also read many scathing remarks on forums denouncing its filtration capabilities, as one tenth that of LR.

Is this a traditionalist thing? What is fact and what is fiction? IS there any data to show for or against DIY live rock?

I would really appreciate the feedback guys.

snorvich · 04/27/2012, 08:10 AM

In my opinion, saving money on DIY live rock is penny wise and pound foolish. I would be most concerned about what might leech from it.

Andrew · 04/27/2012, 08:23 AM

Ditto. In most cases it doesn't look anything like reef rock and just looks like heavy solid boulders. The new "Real Reef Rock" That is man made with coraline colored dyes does look real and I have no idea how they do it but personally I would just buy the real deal.

Sk8r · 04/27/2012, 08:25 AM

Easiest way to DIY live rock? Get some old dead coral scrap from your lfs, get some interesting pure and porous limestone rocks, and submerge them in nicely tuned salt water at 80 degrees with a closed loop pump and a lot of agitation and aeration. Add a single live rock or a scoop of not very clean live sand, a shop light with a 6500 watt CFL, and draw a topoff line. Just let 'er run for 12 weeks. Or you can do that in your cycling tank.

Sugar Magnolia · 04/27/2012, 08:27 AM

If you want to save some $$$, Bulk Reef Supply's Eco-Saver rock is really nice. I used 30 pounds of that and seeded it with 5 or so pounds of Haitian live rock. I'ts been about 5 months now and it's hard to tell what was Eco-Saver and what was live rock. http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...-eco-rock.html

To Reef Central

A visual for you. Only 5 pounds of this was live. I placed it a rubbermaid tote with a heater, powerhead, filter and let it cycle for a couple of months along with the live rock.

Jomega · 04/27/2012, 08:42 AM

thanks for the replies thus far,
but im referring to the DIY rock made from white portalnd cement, often mixed with oyster shell, or araganite sand and rock salt, to make it porous.
It can be shaped to resemble anything due to moulds being used.
That being said, im looking for feedback on its ability to filter in the same manner as Live rock. Does it work in the long term, and is it as effective?
Is there data showing it does or doesnt act as a good filtration medium in a SW tank?

izzy123 · 04/27/2012, 08:54 AM

I'm not sure if there are any studies done about this, but IMO everything that is submerged will grow bacteria, thus helping with the filtration.

I had little succes with making "aragocrete", aspecially to make it look real.... just get yourself some baserock and a few pounds of live rock and you're set.

hope this helps

Jomega · 04/27/2012, 09:06 AM

Yeah Izzy
thanks for the post...im sitting in London, and the price of Live rock is just astronomical here. Its about £180.00 - £200.00 for 20kg. For our US brethren thats about $290 - $320 for 40 pounds. so pricey

So i just want to get an objective idea of the whole DIY thing, based on fact / past experiences of reefkeepers.

jerpa · 04/27/2012, 09:11 AM

It's about the same price over here. My LFS charges $15 a pound. Look for dry base rock and seed it with a small amount of live rock. You should be able to find dry base rock for $2-$3 a pound. Shipping is much cheaper too.

snorvich · 04/27/2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jomega

Yeah Izzy
thanks for the post...im sitting in London, and the price of Live rock is just astronomical here. Its about £180.00 - £200.00 for 20kg. For our US brethren thats about $290 - $320 for 40 pounds. so pricey

So i just want to get an objective idea of the whole DIY thing, based on fact / past experiences of reefkeepers.

That is comparable to here.

Jomega · 04/27/2012, 01:06 PM

Hi there all..

I really appreciate the responses, and in no way am i repudiating any of the advice given to me thus far,

but/////

No one has been able to answer my questions. I dont care whether someone thinks that live rock is better, or that DIY live rock looks bad, or whether dry rock, or reef saver rock is an option. I value all of these suggestions,, I really do...But i want to know if DIY live rock's ability to act as a filter medium. can be compared to live rock, and so far no one has been able to provide me with a definitve answer. The reason I am so eager to dig out some possible answer is that if there is the slightest proof that it is indeed more or less on par with Live rock, not only is it cheaper, but then we can leave live rock in the environment.

And i guess it should be stated that the hobby might be slightly more accessible to more people due to some form of lower costing in being able to set up a SW aqaurium, not to mention the creative benefit behind aquascaping.

Looking forward to any thoughts.

KafudaFish · 04/27/2012, 01:21 PM

I doubt anyone has studied the filtration capacities of MMLR vs. natural and it sounds like the 10% was some number thrown out there and has been repeated.

If it has been studied can you post a link for it. I would be interested in reading it.

I think it can do the same as "real rock". I have been collecting rock for over 10 years now and most of what people call live is not the same as it was around 2000. I still use that rock today.

I have somewhere around 300 pounds under the house and each group is different in regards to density and porousity but it will all filter.

I have made MMLR several times and though it is heavier I can make it whatever shape I want vs. trying to puzzle all the pieces together for a best fit situation.

Here are some pics of my last build. The tank build will be 2 in June.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

That is not cheating just using your resources.

Next to the PH box:

Sorry for the glare from the window and my reflection in the front glass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

more pictures:

Near the PH box and the tubes:

I can post some pics or I can provide a link to my build for ideas if you wish.

Good luck.

Jomega · 04/28/2012, 03:53 AM

Thanks for the info KAfudafish

It seems from your experience that DIY live rock's ability to act as a filtration medium depends on how it is made, and the results acheived. But this seems promising.

I was ahving a think about it last night, and it occurs to me that its strange that more hasnt been researched into this. I know there are some really detailed threads where people have really put time and effort into delving into the best mix / makeup for DIY live rock, and all of that is really awesome, as it makes it really easy for someon to attempt it. But i have seen experiments conducted to look at the the filtration capablities of DSB vs SSB vs plenums etc, and at least with regards to these people have objective data to make assumptions about how they want to run their system. But with live rock being such an integral part of the current marine, coral keeping world, its suprising to me that more hasnt been locked down in terms of concrete data regarding possible alternatives, The price diddference alone between DIY live rock and live rock is so huge that that alone wold seem to be good incentive.

I do really value your experience though, and i guess with a lack of scientific data, reefkeepers past experiecne with DIY live rock is what shold stand as testimony. I guess the problem is that eadch persons system can be so different that its hard to pin down the cause of problems in a general sense, and by that inference, hard to pin down what might be good (DIY live rock),

ah well, I think I will try a half DIY LR half LR system when i set up my sustem and see how it goes,

izzy123 · 04/28/2012, 05:02 AM

It boils down to this IMO: There is no "standard live rock" ( as kafudafish already pointed out) and no "standard DIY rock".

So to compare the two for filtration capability is next to impossible IMO, just because there is so much difference in them.

But if and when I create a new system, I'm going to make a rock wall out of foam and base rock, and I'm not going to worrie about its filtration capabilitys because I'm pretty confident it will suffise.

Hope this helps a little

KafudaFish · 04/29/2012, 11:07 AM

One of the things about this hobby is there are many ways to accomplish the same objective. What works for one person doesn't always work for another and often people go with what has worked for them in the past due to human nature.

As far as live rock goes one "rule" that often gets thrown out there is 1 to 1.5 pounds (0.5 to 0.75 kg) per gallon. It probably started with the Berlin method because that was how you designed the system. With better equipment and a better understanding of the hobby that number can and has been reduced to as little as 25%. There is a minimalist aquascaping thread here. Some people have just a few pounds of rock in their displays.

For my 5.5 gallon tank, I weighed the rock and it is heavy like 20 to 25 pounds but my water volume is 4.25 gallons. By using the above definition I would have something like 4 pounds per gallon. Even though it is heavy rock it is still porous and I can see water move through it. Crazy huh?

I have made MMLR for 3 different tanks and have enjoyed doing each time even though I could have gone under the house and been done in 5 minutes.

DIY rock pros:
it is fun/artisitc
make the rock just how you want it to look
cheap somewhere between 0.10 to $1.00 per pound depending on supplies
probably works just as well or better than dry base rock
probably a reduced impact to the environment but the cement is still a resource that must be collected

cons:
depending on how much you make and the size of your tank it can take a very long time for the pH to stabilize (I have seen some people going 6+ months)
if you don't get the mix right you can have brittle rock and you have lost that time
lack of diversity vs. live rock but again if you use dry base rock you can have the same issue

There is marine cement out there that costs around $1 per pound that is pH stable pretty quickly if you don't want to wait for months. Other others as mentioned above are using rock rubble and black pond foam that is UV resistant.

Again there are advantages to doing just about anything in this hobby and that is what makes it such an enjoyable (and frustrating) one.

Good luck.

Sk8r · 04/29/2012, 11:14 AM

Your best way to protect the environment is to get ordinary limestone of sufficient porosity OR old dead coral---and put it in your tank with ONE small live rock you buy from your lfs. 12 weeks later, it's all live, and 6 months later it's just the same as if you've gotten it ALL from the ocean. Landbased limestone is OLD ocean reef from several millions of years ago.

denisejoelrod · 11/03/2016, 10:08 AM

I would just look for people who are selling there reef tanks on offer up or craigslist. Ask them to buy there live rock.just take your time good deal always come up and I will get some other goodies on the rock. good luck!

Walla2GSP · 11/03/2016, 01:20 PM

I have less than 10% purchased "Dry rock" in my tanks. The rest is a mix of DIY Arag/perilicrete and Volcanic rock cured in saltwater for 8 months. I get the same chemistry and filtration as most reefers running 100% Aragonite dry rock. Once it's encrusted in Coraline Algae it's really hard to tell the difference between purchased rock and DIY rock.

04/27/2012, 08:04 AM	#1
Jomega Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 7	DIY Live rock - the truth? Hi there guys I had just a question as I currently have a discus tank at present, but will be converting to reef in 6 months when I move house. I have become obsessed with this awesome hobby, and the marine world seems incredible. I have been reading forum after forum and have watched countless videos, as im trying to educate myself before i get into the nitty gritty of a reef setup. I have a couple of questions regarding DIY live rock vs LR People have shown that DIY live rock can be reef safe, porous and lightweight. But, in the long term ( a couple of years, or indefinitely ) Can it match the filtration capabilities of live rock if seeded properly? Can it support aerobic and anaerobic filtration to get nitrates down? Can it be seen as a viable substitute from LR? What is the low down dirty truth about well made DIY live rock? I have seen some people display the porousness of their DIY live rock, whilst i ahve also read many scathing remarks on forums denouncing its filtration capabilities, as one tenth that of LR. Is this a traditionalist thing? What is fact and what is fiction? IS there any data to show for or against DIY live rock? I would really appreciate the feedback guys.

04/27/2012, 08:10 AM	#2
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	In my opinion, saving money on DIY live rock is penny wise and pound foolish. I would be most concerned about what might leech from it. __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

04/27/2012, 08:25 AM	#4
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Easiest way to DIY live rock? Get some old dead coral scrap from your lfs, get some interesting pure and porous limestone rocks, and submerge them in nicely tuned salt water at 80 degrees with a closed loop pump and a lot of agitation and aeration. Add a single live rock or a scoop of not very clean live sand, a shop light with a 6500 watt CFL, and draw a topoff line. Just let 'er run for 12 weeks. Or you can do that in your cycling tank. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

04/27/2012, 08:27 AM	#5
Sugar Magnolia Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Northern VA Posts: 17,691	If you want to save some $$$, Bulk Reef Supply's Eco-Saver rock is really nice. I used 30 pounds of that and seeded it with 5 or so pounds of Haitian live rock. I'ts been about 5 months now and it's hard to tell what was Eco-Saver and what was live rock. http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...-eco-rock.html *To Reef Central* A visual for you. Only 5 pounds of this was live. I placed it a rubbermaid tote with a heater, powerhead, filter and let it cycle for a couple of months along with the live rock. __________________ Adrienne The only thing to fear is fear itself....and spiders. Last edited by Sugar Magnolia; 04/27/2012 at 08:34 AM.

04/29/2012, 11:14 AM	#16
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Your best way to protect the environment is to get ordinary limestone of sufficient porosity OR old dead coral---and put it in your tank with ONE small live rock you buy from your lfs. 12 weeks later, it's all live, and 6 months later it's just the same as if you've gotten it ALL from the ocean. Landbased limestone is OLD ocean reef from several millions of years ago. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

04/27/2012, 08:23 AM	#3
Andrew Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 13,640	Ditto. In most cases it doesn't look anything like reef rock and just looks like heavy solid boulders. The new "Real Reef Rock" That is man made with coraline colored dyes does look real and I have no idea how they do it but personally I would just buy the real deal.

04/27/2012, 08:42 AM	#6
Jomega Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 7	thanks for the replies thus far, but im referring to the DIY rock made from white portalnd cement, often mixed with oyster shell, or araganite sand and rock salt, to make it porous. It can be shaped to resemble anything due to moulds being used. That being said, im looking for feedback on its ability to filter in the same manner as Live rock. Does it work in the long term, and is it as effective? Is there data showing it does or doesnt act as a good filtration medium in a SW tank?

04/27/2012, 08:54 AM	#7
izzy123 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Belgium Posts: 504	I'm not sure if there are any studies done about this, but IMO everything that is submerged will grow bacteria, thus helping with the filtration. I had little succes with making "aragocrete", aspecially to make it look real.... just get yourself some baserock and a few pounds of live rock and you're set. hope this helps

04/27/2012, 09:06 AM	#8
Jomega Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 7	Yeah Izzy thanks for the post...im sitting in London, and the price of Live rock is just astronomical here. Its about £180.00 - £200.00 for 20kg. For our US brethren thats about $290 - $320 for 40 pounds. so pricey So i just want to get an objective idea of the whole DIY thing, based on fact / past experiences of reefkeepers.

04/27/2012, 09:11 AM	#9
jerpa Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 2,174	It's about the same price over here. My LFS charges $15 a pound. Look for dry base rock and seed it with a small amount of live rock. You should be able to find dry base rock for $2-$3 a pound. Shipping is much cheaper too.

04/27/2012, 01:06 PM	#11
Jomega Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 7	Hi there all.. I really appreciate the responses, and in no way am i repudiating any of the advice given to me thus far, but///// No one has been able to answer my questions. I dont care whether someone thinks that live rock is better, or that DIY live rock looks bad, or whether dry rock, or reef saver rock is an option. I value all of these suggestions,, I really do...But i want to know if DIY live rock's ability to act as a filter medium. can be compared to live rock, and so far no one has been able to provide me with a definitve answer. The reason I am so eager to dig out some possible answer is that if there is the slightest proof that it is indeed more or less on par with Live rock, not only is it cheaper, but then we can leave live rock in the environment. And i guess it should be stated that the hobby might be slightly more accessible to more people due to some form of lower costing in being able to set up a SW aqaurium, not to mention the creative benefit behind aquascaping. Looking forward to any thoughts.

04/28/2012, 03:53 AM	#13
Jomega Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 7	Thanks for the info KAfudafish It seems from your experience that DIY live rock's ability to act as a filtration medium depends on how it is made, and the results acheived. But this seems promising. I was ahving a think about it last night, and it occurs to me that its strange that more hasnt been researched into this. I know there are some really detailed threads where people have really put time and effort into delving into the best mix / makeup for DIY live rock, and all of that is really awesome, as it makes it really easy for someon to attempt it. But i have seen experiments conducted to look at the the filtration capablities of DSB vs SSB vs plenums etc, and at least with regards to these people have objective data to make assumptions about how they want to run their system. But with live rock being such an integral part of the current marine, coral keeping world, its suprising to me that more hasnt been locked down in terms of concrete data regarding possible alternatives, The price diddference alone between DIY live rock and live rock is so huge that that alone wold seem to be good incentive. I do really value your experience though, and i guess with a lack of scientific data, reefkeepers past experiecne with DIY live rock is what shold stand as testimony. I guess the problem is that eadch persons system can be so different that its hard to pin down the cause of problems in a general sense, and by that inference, hard to pin down what might be good (DIY live rock), ah well, I think I will try a half DIY LR half LR system when i set up my sustem and see how it goes,

04/28/2012, 05:02 AM	#14
izzy123 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Belgium Posts: 504	It boils down to this IMO: There is no "standard live rock" ( as kafudafish already pointed out) and no "standard DIY rock". So to compare the two for filtration capability is next to impossible IMO, just because there is so much difference in them. But if and when I create a new system, I'm going to make a rock wall out of foam and base rock, and I'm not going to worrie about its filtration capabilitys because I'm pretty confident it will suffise. Hope this helps a little

04/29/2012, 11:07 AM	#15
KafudaFish Cyprinius carpio Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 4,496	One of the things about this hobby is there are many ways to accomplish the same objective. What works for one person doesn't always work for another and often people go with what has worked for them in the past due to human nature. As far as live rock goes one "rule" that often gets thrown out there is 1 to 1.5 pounds (0.5 to 0.75 kg) per gallon. It probably started with the Berlin method because that was how you designed the system. With better equipment and a better understanding of the hobby that number can and has been reduced to as little as 25%. There is a minimalist aquascaping thread here. Some people have just a few pounds of rock in their displays. For my 5.5 gallon tank, I weighed the rock and it is heavy like 20 to 25 pounds but my water volume is 4.25 gallons. By using the above definition I would have something like 4 pounds per gallon. Even though it is heavy rock it is still porous and I can see water move through it. Crazy huh? I have made MMLR for 3 different tanks and have enjoyed doing each time even though I could have gone under the house and been done in 5 minutes. DIY rock pros: it is fun/artisitc make the rock just how you want it to look cheap somewhere between 0.10 to $1.00 per pound depending on supplies probably works just as well or better than dry base rock probably a reduced impact to the environment but the cement is still a resource that must be collected cons: depending on how much you make and the size of your tank it can take a very long time for the pH to stabilize (I have seen some people going 6+ months) if you don't get the mix right you can have brittle rock and you have lost that time lack of diversity vs. live rock but again if you use dry base rock you can have the same issue There is marine cement out there that costs around $1 per pound that is pH stable pretty quickly if you don't want to wait for months. Other others as mentioned above are using rock rubble and black pond foam that is UV resistant. Again there are advantages to doing just about anything in this hobby and that is what makes it such an enjoyable (and frustrating) one. Good luck.

11/03/2016, 10:08 AM	#17
denisejoelrod Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 18	I would just look for people who are selling there reef tanks on offer up or craigslist. Ask them to buy there live rock.just take your time good deal always come up and I will get some other goodies on the rock. good luck!

11/03/2016, 01:20 PM	#18
Walla2GSP Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Out here Posts: 201	I have less than 10% purchased "Dry rock" in my tanks. The rest is a mix of DIY Arag/perilicrete and Volcanic rock cured in saltwater for 8 months. I get the same chemistry and filtration as most reefers running 100% Aragonite dry rock. Once it's encrusted in Coraline Algae it's really hard to tell the difference between purchased rock and DIY rock.