Sump,16 hours now. what did i do wrong!

Auston · 01/19/2015, 04:25 AM

OK so here is the issue with my sump. i built my sump did the research, made it the tank section correct. then built the plumbing. i have my drain line as a 3/4 inch siphon and my return as a 3/4 as well with a ball valve. i started it up and eventually tuned it so the water level was constant in the sump. then after 20 min the water level would start to creep up exponentially, i would tune it back(and i was not sloppy with the tuning). it would level out be OK and then after time go out of whack!. it would go this way every time. the longest i was able to keep it level was an hour. i finally had to(at 5 am) dismantle it. was there something i missed with the plumbing. maybe i am not grasping fluid dynamics here!

Isaacs55 · 01/19/2015, 04:52 AM

What is your return pump rated for?
Account for head loss also...
You may need a ball valve or gate valve on your drain line so you can tune that as well. Depending on your return you really don't need ball valves, there more for silent accessories...ball valves let you tune down the noise of the water flow.

jeffdenney · 01/19/2015, 05:02 AM

Your overflow pipe needs to be durso stand if u only have one pipe...

A syphon only overflow is asking for a flood.. imo. Search durso stand pipe and reaearch overflow types...

JWClark · 01/19/2015, 05:15 AM

No control on your return is asking for trouble--has nothing to do with noise. Noise comes from your drain lines. If you want silent look into Bean animal's set up.

I decided to go w/ lifereef sumps to avoid these issues on my first sump (didn't have the time to figure it all out). Using it has taught me enough to do my own for the retirement build. One thing I've noticed is that drain lines are usually bigger than the returns--mine are 1" drains and 3/4" returns.

That should not be your issue, however, since it is sump volume that is increasing. What size is the tank? My guess would be you either have a pump issue or a valve issue. Perhaps your pump can't handle the head pressure you are putting on it or your gate valve is slowly closing on you.

I'm not the one to ask for help though. You need to provide more specifics (tank size, pump, return distance, height, etc) for the more knowledgable folks here to help.

kmbyrnes · 01/19/2015, 05:48 AM

Definitely a gate valve on the siphon. Much easier to make fine adjustments.

JWClark · 01/19/2015, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffdenney

Your overflow pipe needs to be durso stand if u only have one pipe...

A syphon only overflow is asking for a flood.. imo. Search durso stand pipe and reaearch overflow types...

Not necessarily. If set up correctly a flood is impossible. Worst case on a broken siphon is that you burn out your return pump once the sump runs dry. The trick is to have the correct max volume of water in the system at set up--then adjust levels from there--either manipulating the level of your siphon or manipulating the gpm of the return.

If the siphon breaks the sump is dry before the tank is at max volume. If the pump quits the back siphon is broken by a hole drilled into the return lines before the sump is full (must drill these just below the tank water level once you have it where you want it). The trick is to NOT add anymore water to the system once you start running from a full sump w/ the overflows set at a lowest level in the tank (except to replace evaporation, of course).

Auston · 01/19/2015, 11:53 AM

to make clear. my pump is brand new and more the capable of running this set up. i believe it is the Rio 2100 and with 700 gph and im running at 3 ft so its about 500 gph. i only have a ball valve on the line going out of my pump to the tank. i guess i am wondering if my siphon is running at full tilt and i have room on my ball valve one way or the other(as in i can drain the sump or flood it if i want to) does it matter that i don't have a valve on the siphon line?. also questions like when more water volume enters the display tank does that change the rate of flow with the siphon?. my tank is a 21g long and my sump is 10.....if i don't throw it in the trash that is

gone fishin · 01/19/2015, 12:12 PM

What happens when you leave the return ball valve open?

morleyz · 01/19/2015, 12:12 PM

I agree with you that your pump should be sufficient for the setup.

How is your plumbing laid out? Are there 90, 45's, or horizontal runs to get into your sump? Are your drain lines below the water line of the sump? All of these can trap air which gets purged over time, increasing the flow of the drain line.

If you're running a full siphon drain, you need to have control of the drain line, and very fine control at that (I agree with the recommendation of buying a decent gate valve for this task). To set it, you should then run your return line at full volume and adjust the drain line to maintain the height in your overflow.

Here's the problem though, if you don't have a 2nd drain line (for a herbie) or 2 emergency drains (beananimal), you're going to run into problem starting the system up and always have to go through the setting process. If you shut off your return pump, all of the water will drain out of the drain and return lines. When you turn it back on, your return pump will pump water into the display until your siphon restarts. As you are noticing, due to air and other issues, the siphon isn't always at full volume and increases as air is purged from the system. During this time, if your display tank cannot handle the entire volume of the return chamber of your sump, you can overflow your display tank. When I restart my herbie after a return pump shutdown, the emergency drain gets some flow until the siphon reestablishes full flow. At this point, the emergency line only gets a trickle.

Maybe some pictures of your setup will help us provide better feedback. It's possible that we're missing something important that could be the difference.

JWClark · 01/19/2015, 04:22 PM

Think the slow purge of air in the siphon lines is the most logical explanation at this point--causing a slow increase in flow to the sump through time.

I don't have valves on my siphons--have 2 lifereef external overflows, each w/ a 1" tube to the sump. Never have an issue and I shut off the return twice a day to feed. I do remember, when I first set it up, that I had some issues dialing it in over a day or two as the initial air was purged. Remember being nervous the first night I left the tank to sleep--every noise I heard I thought was a trickle of water. However, I followed Jeff's (from Lifereef) instructions setting it up so I knew I couldn't flood anything.

After that, though, it just settled in. The only issues I've had since were small snails flowing out of the refugium and getting stuck in the return pump. This dropped the return flow no matter how much I opened the valve. Took a day or two to figure this out.

Also, if I open my return more than 50% it pushes too much water into the tank--faster than it can drain. So you certainly don't need the return full open. My pump is a 2200gph blueline pump on my 125g but my drain lines are not direct so they don't flow as quickly as they could. If I started again I'd position the sump and overflows to have a straight drain line run to the sump.

Did you ever run your return at full open? If not, I'd keep at it until you had no more room to increase the return. Unless something is wrong w/ your overflow (as in water can enter from below the waterline with no check), it is impossible for more water to flow out of the tank than what is pushed in. Once the level in the tank is below the overflow teeth no more water will flow down the drain until the pump pushes more water into the tank. Using this logic, perhaps your problem is w/ the overflow itself, not the siphon line or return set up? Can you adjust the overflow height? Does water enter anywhere other than through the teeth/top?

Agree pics would help.

nibor75 · 01/19/2015, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auston

to make clear. my pump is brand new and more the capable of running this set up. i believe it is the Rio 2100 and with 700 gph and im running at 3 ft so its about 500 gph. i only have a ball valve on the line going out of my pump to the tank. i guess i am wondering if my siphon is running at full tilt and i have room on my ball valve one way or the other(as in i can drain the sump or flood it if i want to) does it matter that i don't have a valve on the siphon line?. also questions like when more water volume enters the display tank does that change the rate of flow with the siphon?. my tank is a 21g long and my sump is 10.....if i don't throw it in the trash that is

Do you have any sort of overflow at all or are you just trying to use a simple siphon pipe direct from the tank to the sump? Looking at your tank thread, there doesn't appear to be any sort of overflow on your tank.

If you are just using a siphon over the side of the tank and trying to match it by adjusting the valve on the return pump, it will not work.

ca1ore · 01/19/2015, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWClark

Not necessarily. If set up correctly a flood is impossible. Worst case on a broken siphon is that you burn out your return pump once the sump runs dry. The trick is to have the correct max volume of water in the system at set up--then adjust levels from there--either manipulating the level of your siphon or manipulating the gpm of the return.

If the siphon breaks the sump is dry before the tank is at max volume. If the pump quits the back siphon is broken by a hole drilled into the return lines before the sump is full (must drill these just below the tank water level once you have it where you want it). The trick is to NOT add anymore water to the system once you start running from a full sump w/ the overflows set at a lowest level in the tank (except to replace evaporation, of course).

What you say is technically correct, however, it's a poor design. The capacity of a single siphon will decline over time such that a low sump condition is inevitable. At that point the main pump will be off (either burned out, running dry or turned off via a low water switch).

JWClark · 01/20/2015, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca1ore

What you say is technically correct, however, it's a poor design. The capacity of a single siphon will decline over time such that a low sump condition is inevitable. At that point the main pump will be off (either burned out, running dry or turned off via a low water switch).

Agree w/ this. It works for my constraints right now but I have 2 drain lines running currently. Been thinking of adding a third that is set higher to act as an emergency overflow so I don't come back from my farm property one day and find my pump burnt out and everything in the tank stressing due to low O2.

username in use · 01/20/2015, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmbyrnes

definitely a gate valve on the siphon. Much easier to make fine adjustments.

do not do this^^^^

01/19/2015, 04:25 AM	#1
Auston Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Ontario Posts: 338	Sump,16 hours now. what did i do wrong! OK so here is the issue with my sump. i built my sump did the research, made it the tank section correct. then built the plumbing. i have my drain line as a 3/4 inch siphon and my return as a 3/4 as well with a ball valve. i started it up and eventually tuned it so the water level was constant in the sump. then after 20 min the water level would start to creep up exponentially, i would tune it back(and i was not sloppy with the tuning). it would level out be OK and then after time go out of whack!. it would go this way every time. the longest i was able to keep it level was an hour. i finally had to(at 5 am) dismantle it. was there something i missed with the plumbing. maybe i am not grasping fluid dynamics here!

01/19/2015, 05:02 AM	#3
jeffdenney Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 121	Your overflow pipe needs to be durso stand if u only have one pipe... A syphon only overflow is asking for a flood.. imo. Search durso stand pipe and reaearch overflow types... __________________ 40b bean animal+20gal sump mixed reef jeabao dc9000 return-swc160 skimmer 250w halide+2x39watt t5ho 5gal fuge-50watt led flood. chaeto,caulaerpa APEX+ Skimz cm122 CaRx

01/19/2015, 05:15 AM	#4
JWClark Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: MD Posts: 576	No control on your return is asking for trouble--has nothing to do with noise. Noise comes from your drain lines. If you want silent look into Bean animal's set up. I decided to go w/ lifereef sumps to avoid these issues on my first sump (didn't have the time to figure it all out). Using it has taught me enough to do my own for the retirement build. One thing I've noticed is that drain lines are usually bigger than the returns--mine are 1" drains and 3/4" returns. That should not be your issue, however, since it is sump volume that is increasing. What size is the tank? My guess would be you either have a pump issue or a valve issue. Perhaps your pump can't handle the head pressure you are putting on it or your gate valve is slowly closing on you. I'm not the one to ask for help though. You need to provide more specifics (tank size, pump, return distance, height, etc) for the more knowledgable folks here to help. __________________ Back after a 13yr hiatus--much to my wife's dismay. Though she sure loves looking at the tank and feeding the fish! Current Tank Info: Reefer 450 seed tank for the retirement 315gal Reef Savvy build.

01/19/2015, 05:48 AM	#5
kmbyrnes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 2,055	Definitely a gate valve on the siphon. Much easier to make fine adjustments. __________________ 125g Mixed Reef 5/26/2015; 350 Butterfly Dominated FOWLR 11/26/2015 - 11/17/20217 & 07/31/18 to ??? ; 100g Mixed Reef 11/16/2013 to 06/16/2017 Current Tank Info: Too small

01/19/2015, 12:12 PM	#8
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	What happens when you leave the return ball valve open? __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

01/19/2015, 04:52 AM	#2
Isaacs55 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Riverbank CA Posts: 906	What is your return pump rated for? Account for head loss also... You may need a ball valve or gate valve on your drain line so you can tune that as well. Depending on your return you really don't need ball valves, there more for silent accessories...ball valves let you tune down the noise of the water flow.

01/19/2015, 11:53 AM	#7
Auston Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Ontario Posts: 338	to make clear. my pump is brand new and more the capable of running this set up. i believe it is the Rio 2100 and with 700 gph and im running at 3 ft so its about 500 gph. i only have a ball valve on the line going out of my pump to the tank. i guess i am wondering if my siphon is running at full tilt and i have room on my ball valve one way or the other(as in i can drain the sump or flood it if i want to) does it matter that i don't have a valve on the siphon line?. also questions like when more water volume enters the display tank does that change the rate of flow with the siphon?. my tank is a 21g long and my sump is 10.....if i don't throw it in the trash that is

01/19/2015, 12:12 PM	#9
morleyz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Crystal Lake, IL Posts: 304	I agree with you that your pump should be sufficient for the setup. How is your plumbing laid out? Are there 90, 45's, or horizontal runs to get into your sump? Are your drain lines below the water line of the sump? All of these can trap air which gets purged over time, increasing the flow of the drain line. If you're running a full siphon drain, you need to have control of the drain line, and very fine control at that (I agree with the recommendation of buying a decent gate valve for this task). To set it, you should then run your return line at full volume and adjust the drain line to maintain the height in your overflow. Here's the problem though, if you don't have a 2nd drain line (for a herbie) or 2 emergency drains (beananimal), you're going to run into problem starting the system up and always have to go through the setting process. If you shut off your return pump, all of the water will drain out of the drain and return lines. When you turn it back on, your return pump will pump water into the display until your siphon restarts. As you are noticing, due to air and other issues, the siphon isn't always at full volume and increases as air is purged from the system. During this time, if your display tank cannot handle the entire volume of the return chamber of your sump, you can overflow your display tank. When I restart my herbie after a return pump shutdown, the emergency drain gets some flow until the siphon reestablishes full flow. At this point, the emergency line only gets a trickle. Maybe some pictures of your setup will help us provide better feedback. It's possible that we're missing something important that could be the difference. __________________ -jeff

01/19/2015, 04:22 PM	#10
JWClark Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: MD Posts: 576	Think the slow purge of air in the siphon lines is the most logical explanation at this point--causing a slow increase in flow to the sump through time. I don't have valves on my siphons--have 2 lifereef external overflows, each w/ a 1" tube to the sump. Never have an issue and I shut off the return twice a day to feed. I do remember, when I first set it up, that I had some issues dialing it in over a day or two as the initial air was purged. Remember being nervous the first night I left the tank to sleep--every noise I heard I thought was a trickle of water. However, I followed Jeff's (from Lifereef) instructions setting it up so I knew I couldn't flood anything. After that, though, it just settled in. The only issues I've had since were small snails flowing out of the refugium and getting stuck in the return pump. This dropped the return flow no matter how much I opened the valve. Took a day or two to figure this out. Also, if I open my return more than 50% it pushes too much water into the tank--faster than it can drain. So you certainly don't need the return full open. My pump is a 2200gph blueline pump on my 125g but my drain lines are not direct so they don't flow as quickly as they could. If I started again I'd position the sump and overflows to have a straight drain line run to the sump. Did you ever run your return at full open? If not, I'd keep at it until you had no more room to increase the return. Unless something is wrong w/ your overflow (as in water can enter from below the waterline with no check), it is impossible for more water to flow out of the tank than what is pushed in. Once the level in the tank is below the overflow teeth no more water will flow down the drain until the pump pushes more water into the tank. Using this logic, perhaps your problem is w/ the overflow itself, not the siphon line or return set up? Can you adjust the overflow height? Does water enter anywhere other than through the teeth/top? Agree pics would help. __________________ Back after a 13yr hiatus--much to my wife's dismay. Though she sure loves looking at the tank and feeding the fish! Current Tank Info: Reefer 450 seed tank for the retirement 315gal Reef Savvy build.