Porcupine puffer 4 days without oxygen!!

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 09:36 AM

Hi! I got a porcupine puffer 4 days ago but he's at the brink of dying.

He ate excitedly as soon as I bought him home, no problems settling in.

Day 2 slept a lot. Nibbled slightly at food I gave him.

Day 3, only laying at the bottom of the tank, heavy breathing the whole time. Didnt come up except once or twice. At night he switched where he lay several times.

Today, position changes a few times, always at the bottom.
Salt levels OK, pH Levels a bit low so I raised them. He stayed at the bottom of the tank, breathing stabalised but then became rougher again.

Here's what I think the cause is: I live in Japan and the shop I bought my tank water circulator from is not foreigner friendly. I got told to buy a huge circulator, and fill the water to the top. I was a noob and followed the directions. Turns out, you're meant to leave enough room at the top for the water to DROP from the circulator onto the water, creating oxygen bubbles in the water. Ive now done that and put it up to max so that it introduces a lot of oxygen into the water.

After a few hours, he suddenly sprung up from his hiding spot and swam around blindly. Bumped into things, rushed to the top of the water surface a few times, then let himself sink all the way down without noticing he was falling on coral and probably scratching his eye a bit (dunno how strong the surface of his eyes are though). It is clear he can't see anything.

He did this rushing about 3 times in the last hour, and now settled down again. Breathing stabilised a bit but still not fully relaxed. Colour is not as vibrant as when I got him.

I need to know - will he survive? ( did I do what I'm meant to? No access to a nitrate test kit here)
Will he stay blind or is this a temporary symptom?
Having the water circulating on max means he has to keep slightly using a fin to keep himself in his resting spot without being disturbed by the water movement - if I leave it like this overnight, knowing he mostly hasnt eaten in 4 days, will it tire him to literal death?

pH, salt levels stable/good. Lots of oxygen. Several 10% water changes over the last several hours in case its nitrate poisoning (though Im very certain the lack of oxygenated water for 4 days is the reason.... poor thing..... I am so ****ed off at the stupid shop assistant who was merely trying to make a quick sale)

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 09:47 AM

What size tank? How long has it been up and running? What are your parameters besides ok and low?

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 10:20 AM

Tank is 10 litres.
It was up and running for 1 day before the fish arrived (first tank, complete beginner but quickly learning through all this). Its been about 5 days, 4 of which were with the fish.

pH at 8.2ish
Hydrometer reads 1.0205

Oxygen I'd say was super low because until I set up the circulator (dont know the correct term sorry) today, it was running with the circulated water being streamed into the tank water, rather than falling like a waterfall, breaking the surface and introducing oxygen.

Poor little guy just moved to a slightly new position near where he was, but his eyes dont move at all. No clouding or any signs of trouble on the surfaces of the eyes though.

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 10:49 AM

Remove and return the puffer ASAP! I'm guessing ammonia and or nitrites built up.

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 10:54 AM

Return it to the shop?

It was at the shop for a month and super healthy before bringing it home. I'm almost convinced it's the lack of oxygen in the water for 4 days - is that a cause of nitrate poisoning?

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 10:56 AM

Your tank is no where near ready ( not cycled) for fish after 1 day of being set up. A porcupine in a 4 gallon tank? Be patient and research....

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shobu

Return it to the shop?

Yes, get a store credit, in a month get you something more suited for the tank, or get a bigger tank.

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 10:59 AM

Man, I really got had by the guy at the shop where I got the set-up. Ugh.

It's got live coral if that helps, but ugh.

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke4life

Yes, get a store credit, in a month get you something more suited for the tank, or get a bigger tank.

No no, the place where I got the fish was at a really good shop. Where I got the set-up is where I got lied to about how to set it up and what to get for it.
Its my fault for screwing up the set-up and the circulation of oxygen. Poor guy's been gasping for several days.

antimatter · 07/07/2015, 11:05 AM

Store won't take a blind puffer back

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 11:05 AM

Patience is a big key in this hobby. Not had but always research, porcupines need min 75 gal. If you see something research, if you go back and it's not there then it's not meant to be.

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 11:07 AM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1031074

That's a good place for you to check out.

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antimatter

Store won't take a blind puffer back

Could ammonia/nitrite be a problem here?

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke4life

Patience is a big key in this hobby. Not had but always research, porcupines need min 75 gal. If you see something research, if you go back and it's not there then it's not meant to be.

Yeah, I asked the guy at the store where I got the tank, and he actually recommended a SMALLER one first until I said '...doesnt this fish need more room?' to which he said go for 10litres.

It's a 2inch fish at the moment (though I know how big they get later)

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 11:43 AM

I've noticed the coral has started growing quite a fair bit over the last few hours or maybe day.

White clear tube parts (only a couple, and small, but grew quickly) and lots of short purple string-ey parts on several parts. It had nothing on it when I bought it.

Any causes for this or is it part of cycling? Nitrate?

BigBlueTang · 07/07/2015, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shobu

I've noticed the coral has started growing quite a fair bit over the last few hours or maybe day.

White clear tube parts (only a couple, and small, but grew quickly) and lots of short purple string-ey parts on several parts. It had nothing on it when I bought it.

Any causes for this or is it part of cycling? Nitrate?

4 gallons? Are you kidding me? Sorry if I am being a little rude here, I was a newbie like you a little while back, but that puffer will get up to 8-10" long, or 25 cm... Please return that fish.. You need to cycle your tank, which means going with no life, (Corals included) for about a month or so to build up a bacterial population that eats ammonia and nitrite. Please return the puffer! It is probably extremely stressed from the ammonia, and possible nitrite if your tank is starting its cycle.

Also, btw a 4 gallon tank would be extremely hard to take care of, even for experts! I am by no means an expert, but I know a little. A 4 gallon tank will require almost daily water changes, and the biggest fish you may be able to get is a clown goby. Maybe.

m0nkie · 07/07/2015, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shobu

It was at the shop for a month and super healthy before bringing it home.

that tells you something doesn't it? your tank is not ready to support fish right now. Read the beginner sticky threads and cycle your tank properly.

people's telling you to return the fish simply to save you money.. and the fish..

cycle the tank, buy CUC, add nano fish, buy bigger tank.. good luck

domination2580 · 07/07/2015, 04:52 PM

Way to early to even think about fish or corals....you need almost two months if not more for the tank to cycle to handle any fish

Martini5788 · 07/07/2015, 05:14 PM

A porcupine puffer needs 75 gallons to itself, in a larger tank. You can't keep a porky long term in a 75, even by itself. They get gigantic. Return the fish please. Cycle your tank Properly. Do not return to that store, because they have no idea what they are talking about. Puffers are sensitive fish and will absolutely not tolerate elevated levels of ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. The chances of survival in a 10l tank are zero, even short term. They produce an unbelievable amount of waste. I have a 1 inch puffer in a 10 gallon qt and I am doing 50% water changes twice daily to maintain ammonia levels.

sowildpaul · 07/07/2015, 05:57 PM

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...244&pcatid=244

It shows that a min tank size for that fish is 180 gallons.

Did you test ammonia and nitrite at all?

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 06:47 PM

I'm about to write an email to the shop to make a large complaint and ask for compensation.

Can it be said for certain that a 1.5-2inch puffer cannot survive in a 10litre tank with only monthly water changes, and that cycling the tank for only one day with no coral does not prepare it?

The instructions the moron gave me was:
Buy a small tank (he originally tried to sell me an 8litre-ish tank for the even bigger puffer they had there but a 1)said I need a bigger tank and 2)didnt want their puffer because it has ich)
Put in the sand, make the salt water, turn the HOB filter on for overnight
Next day, put in the puffer (they had a 3inch one and he said it'd be fine)
Adding coal would be 'better' but okay to do the next day with the fish

Is this all 100% definitely incorrect?

He also threw in a $40 aquarium light (the long thin type) - he said it's necessary as normal daylight is not enough. He said if I don't buy it, my puffer will lose his colouration and be dull-coloured.

Have I been had?

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 07:03 PM

He's on the brink of dying. Lost most of the colour of the leopard pattern around his pupil, and when I accidentally bumped him he didn't move. He has periods where he doesnt breathe for minutes.

How can I put him out of his misery and how do I dispose of him?

This is horrible and I won't let this go. That shop is going to be dealing with a huge complaint, including racist at one point funny enough.

Martini5788 · 07/07/2015, 07:15 PM

Everything from the last 2 posts from you is 150% inaccurate. Everything is completely wrong. Put it out
Of its misery

Duke4life · 07/07/2015, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martini5788

Everything from the last 2 posts from you is 150% inaccurate. Everything is completely wrong. Put it out
Of its misery

^+1

She's totally right. Go check out the other thread in the link I posted a bit ago. You'll learn a lot there.

Shobu · 07/07/2015, 08:21 PM

I think it may have died already. Just in case, how do I put it out of its misery?

As for the body, as its Tokyo there is nowhere to bury him and the sea's full of pollution. Find some ground or throw him in the sea?

07/07/2015, 09:36 AM	#1
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	Porcupine puffer 4 days without oxygen!! Hi! I got a porcupine puffer 4 days ago but he's at the brink of dying. He ate excitedly as soon as I bought him home, no problems settling in. Day 2 slept a lot. Nibbled slightly at food I gave him. Day 3, only laying at the bottom of the tank, heavy breathing the whole time. Didnt come up except once or twice. At night he switched where he lay several times. Today, position changes a few times, always at the bottom. Salt levels OK, pH Levels a bit low so I raised them. He stayed at the bottom of the tank, breathing stabalised but then became rougher again. Here's what I think the cause is: I live in Japan and the shop I bought my tank water circulator from is not foreigner friendly. I got told to buy a huge circulator, and fill the water to the top. I was a noob and followed the directions. Turns out, you're meant to leave enough room at the top for the water to DROP from the circulator onto the water, creating oxygen bubbles in the water. Ive now done that and put it up to max so that it introduces a lot of oxygen into the water. After a few hours, he suddenly sprung up from his hiding spot and swam around blindly. Bumped into things, rushed to the top of the water surface a few times, then let himself sink all the way down without noticing he was falling on coral and probably scratching his eye a bit (dunno how strong the surface of his eyes are though). It is clear he can't see anything. He did this rushing about 3 times in the last hour, and now settled down again. Breathing stabilised a bit but still not fully relaxed. Colour is not as vibrant as when I got him. I need to know - will he survive? ( did I do what I'm meant to? No access to a nitrate test kit here) Will he stay blind or is this a temporary symptom? Having the water circulating on max means he has to keep slightly using a fin to keep himself in his resting spot without being disturbed by the water movement - if I leave it like this overnight, knowing he mostly hasnt eaten in 4 days, will it tire him to literal death? pH, salt levels stable/good. Lots of oxygen. Several 10% water changes over the last several hours in case its nitrate poisoning (though Im very certain the lack of oxygenated water for 4 days is the reason.... poor thing..... I am so ****ed off at the stupid shop assistant who was merely trying to make a quick sale)

07/07/2015, 05:14 PM	#19
Martini5788 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Beaufort, SC Posts: 2,303	Porcupine puffer 4 days without oxygen!! A porcupine puffer needs 75 gallons to itself, in a larger tank. You can't keep a porky long term in a 75, even by itself. They get gigantic. Return the fish please. Cycle your tank Properly. Do not return to that store, because they have no idea what they are talking about. Puffers are sensitive fish and will absolutely not tolerate elevated levels of ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. The chances of survival in a 10l tank are zero, even short term. They produce an unbelievable amount of waste. I have a 1 inch puffer in a 10 gallon qt and I am doing 50% water changes twice daily to maintain ammonia levels. Last edited by Martini5788; 07/07/2015 at 05:21 PM.

07/07/2015, 09:47 AM	#2
Duke4life Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 559	What size tank? How long has it been up and running? What are your parameters besides ok and low?

07/07/2015, 10:20 AM	#3
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	Tank is 10 litres. It was up and running for 1 day before the fish arrived (first tank, complete beginner but quickly learning through all this). Its been about 5 days, 4 of which were with the fish. pH at 8.2ish Hydrometer reads 1.0205 Oxygen I'd say was super low because until I set up the circulator (dont know the correct term sorry) today, it was running with the circulated water being streamed into the tank water, rather than falling like a waterfall, breaking the surface and introducing oxygen. Poor little guy just moved to a slightly new position near where he was, but his eyes dont move at all. No clouding or any signs of trouble on the surfaces of the eyes though.

07/07/2015, 10:49 AM	#4
Duke4life Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 559	Remove and return the puffer ASAP! I'm guessing ammonia and or nitrites built up.

07/07/2015, 10:54 AM	#5
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	Return it to the shop? It was at the shop for a month and super healthy before bringing it home. I'm almost convinced it's the lack of oxygen in the water for 4 days - is that a cause of nitrate poisoning?

07/07/2015, 10:56 AM	#6
Duke4life Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 559	Your tank is no where near ready ( not cycled) for fish after 1 day of being set up. A porcupine in a 4 gallon tank? Be patient and research....

07/07/2015, 10:59 AM	#8
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	Man, I really got had by the guy at the shop where I got the set-up. Ugh. It's got live coral if that helps, but ugh.

07/07/2015, 11:05 AM	#10
antimatter Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 100	Store won't take a blind puffer back

07/07/2015, 11:07 AM	#12
Duke4life Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 559	http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1031074 That's a good place for you to check out.

07/07/2015, 11:43 AM	#15
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	I've noticed the coral has started growing quite a fair bit over the last few hours or maybe day. White clear tube parts (only a couple, and small, but grew quickly) and lots of short purple string-ey parts on several parts. It had nothing on it when I bought it. Any causes for this or is it part of cycling? Nitrate?

07/07/2015, 04:52 PM	#18
domination2580 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 191	Way to early to even think about fish or corals....you need almost two months if not more for the tank to cycle to handle any fish

07/07/2015, 05:57 PM	#20
sowildpaul Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 383	http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...244&pcatid=244 It shows that a min tank size for that fish is 180 gallons. Did you test ammonia and nitrite at all?

07/07/2015, 06:47 PM	#21
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	I'm about to write an email to the shop to make a large complaint and ask for compensation. Can it be said for certain that a 1.5-2inch puffer cannot survive in a 10litre tank with only monthly water changes, and that cycling the tank for only one day with no coral does not prepare it? The instructions the moron gave me was: Buy a small tank (he originally tried to sell me an 8litre-ish tank for the even bigger puffer they had there but a 1)said I need a bigger tank and 2)didnt want their puffer because it has ich) Put in the sand, make the salt water, turn the HOB filter on for overnight Next day, put in the puffer (they had a 3inch one and he said it'd be fine) Adding coal would be 'better' but okay to do the next day with the fish Is this all 100% definitely incorrect? He also threw in a $40 aquarium light (the long thin type) - he said it's necessary as normal daylight is not enough. He said if I don't buy it, my puffer will lose his colouration and be dull-coloured. Have I been had?

07/07/2015, 07:03 PM	#22
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	He's on the brink of dying. Lost most of the colour of the leopard pattern around his pupil, and when I accidentally bumped him he didn't move. He has periods where he doesnt breathe for minutes. How can I put him out of his misery and how do I dispose of him? This is horrible and I won't let this go. That shop is going to be dealing with a huge complaint, including racist at one point funny enough.

07/07/2015, 07:15 PM	#23
Martini5788 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Beaufort, SC Posts: 2,303	Everything from the last 2 posts from you is 150% inaccurate. Everything is completely wrong. Put it out Of its misery

07/07/2015, 08:21 PM	#25
Shobu Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 12	I think it may have died already. Just in case, how do I put it out of its misery? As for the body, as its Tokyo there is nowhere to bury him and the sea's full of pollution. Find some ground or throw him in the sea?