Any of you have "sustainable" reef tanks

[Dj Anarkee]

I haven't had a reef tank since the 90s and back then nearly everything was wild caught, with the exception of some clowns. Now that more things are captive bred and aqua-cultured, I would like to make reef with no impact to the ocean. Does anyone have experience doing this? Do you mind posting a pic of how your tank turned out?

[d2mini]

My rock is all from Tampa Bay Saltwater.
It's the man-made Walt Smith 2.1 rock, but it's left in the ocean for months to become colonized, so you get the best of both worlds.
Most of my coral is aqua cultured or from local reefers.
Fish are harder because not as many are able to be captive bred, although there have been strides in this area.

[Dj Anarkee]

Originally Posted by d2mini

My rock is all from Tampa Bay Saltwater.
It's the man-made Walt Smith 2.1 rock, but it's left in the ocean for months to become colonized, so you get the best of both worlds.
Most of my coral is aqua cultured or from local reefers.
Fish are harder because not as many are able to be captive bred, although there have been strides in this area.

Thanks for the response. I like the idea of TBS rock as well. Did you cycle with the lights on or off? I was thinking of getting the TBS rock, but would want to keep as much of what came on it alive so was thinking of cycling with the lights on, but nervous about an algae bloom.

[d2mini]

There is no real cycle with TBS, just several days of watching your ammonia levels. The nitrification process starts almost immediately. Some never see substantial rise in ammonia.
You'll probably want your lights on to watch all the critters.
And maybe catch a few guys you don't want.

You still go through some of the typical blooms like diatoms, maybe bacteria bloom. It all passes.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by Dj Anarkee

Thanks for the response. I like the idea of TBS rock as well. Did you cycle with the lights on or off? I was thinking of getting the TBS rock, but would want to keep as much of what came on it alive so was thinking of cycling with the lights on, but nervous about an algae bloom.

You can do it and you will get an algae bloom, but that isn't a bad thing. That's when you put in a cleanup crew and let the cycle work its magic. The algae bloom is temporary.

[d2mini]

btw, i highly recommend going with The Package. I believe getting the TBS sand as well plays a major part in the tank's success.
Plus all the extra goodies you get are so cool. Along with a great clean up crew.

[Dj Anarkee]

Originally Posted by d2mini

btw, i highly recommend going with The Package. I believe getting the TBS sand as well plays a major part in the tank's success.
Plus all the extra goodies you get are so cool. Along with a great clean up crew.

Do you think the number of clean up crew provided with the package was excessive? It seems like they would do the job then many would starve off.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by d2mini

btw, i highly recommend going with The Package. I believe getting the TBS sand as well plays a major part in the tank's success.
Plus all the extra goodies you get are so cool. Along with a great clean up crew.

My concern with "the package" is it seems like you get waaaaaaay too many CUC members to be put into a tank at once. What was your experience like in regards to that?

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by Dj Anarkee

Do you think the number of clean up crew provided with the package was excessive? It seems like they would do the job then many would starve off.

Originally Posted by ktownhero

My concern with "the package" is it seems like you get waaaaaaay too many CUC members to be put into a tank at once. What was your experience like in regards to that?

My big stuff like stars, urchins, shrimp and cucumbers always survive.
Little stuff like snails will die off or just have short life spans.
Seems to happen to me regardless, whether I add 5 or 50.
I occasionally order new snails and blue leg hermits, like once a year.

What I personally cut back on in my order is the amount of rock.
But I still like to get a little more than i'll end up using so I can pick/choose.
Then throw the extra in my sump or sell locally.

[Ron Reefman]

It strikes me as kind of funny that in your first post you say,"I would like to make reef with no impact to the ocean." I like the concept. I'm not sure it's that big a deal, but I applaude the idea.

But then the rest of the thread is about man made rock that is placed in the ocean where it loads up on life and then is pulled from the ocean to your tank. That's an impact to the ocean, yes/no?

If you want to have no impact on the ocean, why use TBS live rock? You can do a great tank starting out with dry, dead rock. Seems to me you are short circuiting your primary objective.

Don't get me wrong, I harvest stuff from the ocean all the time and TBS live rock is probably going in my new 50g display refugium. But you asked about "no impact to the ocean."

[Nick_Northern]

I have set my tank up along a similar line of thinking. I added 100lbs of dry caribsea life rock to which I added about 20lbs of seeded real reef rock from the LFS which added pods and other critters to the mix without having to add any live rock.

I have only captive fragged or maricultured corals, no fish at the moment but I will be adding a pair of clowns, fridmani dottyback and a pair/trio of flame angels, all of which will be captive bred. Corals include various leathers, xenia, anthelia, zoas and gorgonians.

I would love to have added a captive bred cuc but there are no suppliers in the UK so have gone for a minimalist crew of 2 x strawberry conch, 1 x tuxedo urchin, 11 x trochus and 3 x blue legs. If your in the US it seems as though you have more options for CB cuc and access to a larger variety of fish than over here.

[Nick_Northern]

Not the best pic but you get the idea!


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[lmm1967]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

It strikes me as kind of funny that in your first post you say,"I would like to make reef with no impact to the ocean." I like the concept. I'm not sure it's that big a deal, but I applaude the idea.

But then the rest of the thread is about man made rock that is placed in the ocean where it loads up on life and then is pulled from the ocean to your tank. That's an impact to the ocean, yes/no?

If you want to have no impact on the ocean, why use TBS live rock? You can do a great tank starting out with dry, dead rock. Seems to me you are short circuiting your primary objective.

Don't get me wrong, I harvest stuff from the ocean all the time and TBS live rock is probably going in my new 50g display refugium. But you asked about "no impact to the ocean."

Well. The GoM is almost like the Sarah's desert of the oceans. So most of the critters you get from TBS probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for the lease Richard has.

At least that's what I tell myself.


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[ReefsandGeeks]

Also, there's a difference between "sustainable" as the thread title says and "no impact" as mentioned in the first post. the Florida live rock is a sustainable method for getting live rock, and may even provide a good place for these critters to reproduce, so you're only really taking critters from the ocean that wouldn't have existed without the unnaturally placed rock to begin with. It still has an impact, but not necessarily a negative one.

[Nick_Northern]

Originally Posted by devastator007

Also, there's a difference between "sustainable" as the thread title says and "no impact" as mentioned in the first post. the Florida live rock is a sustainable method for getting live rock, and may even provide a good place for these critters to reproduce, so you're only really taking critters from the ocean that wouldn't have existed without the unnaturally placed rock to begin with. It still has an impact, but not necessarily a negative one.

I'd agree, from the little I know of it I don't think I would have any qualms using TBS rock, to my mind anyway the sustainability issue with LR is not the fact that critters are removed from the ocean but the destructive harvesting processes and removal of natural habitat associated with its collection so if the habitat itself is artificial and constantly replenished with new rock it seems like a win-win.

I went for dry rock with a couple of chunks of real reef seeded with critters from the LFS, the critters have obviously come from LR originally but seemed like a good compromise given we don't have access to anything like TBS rock here in the UK.

With regards to "no impact" its all relative anyway and really depends on where you place your boundaries! you can't have any tank that is running 100's of watts of kit 24/7 and call it no impact when you take into account carbon footprint, global warming and potential impacts on the worlds reefs etc. I just aim to be as low impact as practically possible with mine.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

It strikes me as kind of funny that in your first post you say,"I would like to make reef with no impact to the ocean." I like the concept. I'm not sure it's that big a deal, but I applaude the idea.

But then the rest of the thread is about man made rock that is placed in the ocean where it loads up on life and then is pulled from the ocean to your tank. That's an impact to the ocean, yes/no?

If you want to have no impact on the ocean, why use TBS live rock? You can do a great tank starting out with dry, dead rock. Seems to me you are short circuiting your primary objective.

Don't get me wrong, I harvest stuff from the ocean all the time and TBS live rock is probably going in my new 50g display refugium. But you asked about "no impact to the ocean."

Here is a question though.
If that rock was not placed there, would the life that is on it even exist?
If there is no host, where would it go?
Is it possible then that life was created directly because of the placed rock?

[Dj Anarkee]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

It strikes me as kind of funny that in your first post you say,"I would like to make reef with no impact to the ocean." I like the concept. I'm not sure it's that big a deal, but I applaude the idea.

But then the rest of the thread is about man made rock that is placed in the ocean where it loads up on life and then is pulled from the ocean to your tank. That's an impact to the ocean, yes/no?

If you want to have no impact on the ocean, why use TBS live rock? You can do a great tank starting out with dry, dead rock. Seems to me you are short circuiting your primary objective.

Don't get me wrong, I harvest stuff from the ocean all the time and TBS live rock is probably going in my new 50g display refugium. But you asked about "no impact to the ocean."

My apologies, I should have written no to minimal negative impact to the ocean. The main focus is sustainability.

I had come across these articles while doing research after being out of the hobby for so many years and I do think it is a big deal.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...e-coral-reefs/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...s-protections/

[Dj Anarkee]

Originally Posted by devastator007

Also, there's a difference between "sustainable" as the thread title says and "no impact" as mentioned in the first post. the Florida live rock is a sustainable method for getting live rock, and may even provide a good place for these critters to reproduce, so you're only really taking critters from the ocean that wouldn't have existed without the unnaturally placed rock to begin with. It still has an impact, but not necessarily a negative one.

Yes I should have focused on sustainable and said little to no impact. Heck, buying everyday consumer goods shipped from overseas has a negative impact. I'm just trying to minimize it.

[Dj Anarkee]

Originally Posted by Nick_Northern

I'd agree, from the little I know of it I don't think I would have any qualms using TBS rock, to my mind anyway the sustainability issue with LR is not the fact that critters are removed from the ocean but the destructive harvesting processes and removal of natural habitat associated with its collection so if the habitat itself is artificial and constantly replenished with new rock it seems like a win-win.

I went for dry rock with a couple of chunks of real reef seeded with critters from the LFS, the critters have obviously come from LR originally but seemed like a good compromise given we don't have access to anything like TBS rock here in the UK.

With regards to "no impact" its all relative anyway and really depends on where you place your boundaries! you can't have any tank that is running 100's of watts of kit 24/7 and call it no impact when you take into account carbon footprint, global warming and potential impacts on the worlds reefs etc. I just aim to be as low impact as practically possible with mine.

This is what I was getting at!

[Timfish]

I would say 98% of the coral biomass and 90% of the colonies I have, have been grown in my tanks. So yes you can have a very small impact on wild collected stuff. Keep in mind though much of the wild stuff can be collected sustainably and it provides an economic incentive for many island nations that do not really have any other natural resources to preserve their reefs and not use them for building materials or resort to unsustainable fishing practices.

Here's a couple videos, first one is a system started in 1994 and the second in 1997:

http://youtu.be/KhcRz50cV0s

http://youtu.be/5AnmQXmE8d0

[saf1]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

It strikes me as kind of funny that in your first post you say,"I would like to make reef with no impact to the ocean." I like the concept. I'm not sure it's that big a deal, but I applaude the idea.

But then the rest of the thread is about man made rock that is placed in the ocean where it loads up on life and then is pulled from the ocean to your tank. That's an impact to the ocean, yes/no?

If you want to have no impact on the ocean, why use TBS live rock? You can do a great tank starting out with dry, dead rock. Seems to me you are short circuiting your primary objective.

Don't get me wrong, I harvest stuff from the ocean all the time and TBS live rock is probably going in my new 50g display refugium. But you asked about "no impact to the ocean."

TBS or any other aqua-cultured rock isn't an impact on the ocean much like the US Coast Guard or military sinking a vessel to create an artificial reef. Not to mince words but the rock didn't exist prior to the company placing it there. They had to work with various federal agencies, permits, presentations about potential impact, among other things I can only imagine such has legal fees.

It is dropped, has to mature, then harvested. So man put in, man takes out. A small man made artificial reef is born. When the rock is removed life is obviously removed from the ocean so one could mince words that there is impact because something was removed. However, it has less impact than removal of natural reefs and replenished at set intervals.

In this hobby we should try and buy, sell, and trade, captive corals and fish whenever possible compared to naturally caught animals. It really is in our best interest to prevent the government(s) getting involved and policing something we can self manage. Promoting captive bred, and reasonable prices, is the way to do it or trade among ourselves.

Of course now I rant but you get the idea. I do agree there is somewhat of an impact but it is the lessor of two evils in that it is man made, researched, invested in, and of course managed which probably does more good than harm.

[tlc]

I have been trying my hardest to have a no reef impact aquarium. there are lots of captive bred corals and fish on the market. clean up crews are a little harder to find. I have been able to find captive bred mini brittle stars, bristle worms, nassarius snails, burrowing brittle stars, copepods, and amphipods. the only thing in my tank that is not captive bred are a few variety's of snails...

[Dj Anarkee]

Originally Posted by tlc

I have been trying my hardest to have a no reef impact aquarium. there are lots of captive bred corals and fish on the market. clean up crews are a little harder to find. I have been able to find captive bred mini brittle stars, bristle worms, nassarius snails, burrowing brittle stars, copepods, and amphipods. the only thing in my tank that is not captive bred are a few variety's of snails...

Where did you find the captive bred clean up crew you have? I'm not having any luck googling it.

[saf1]

Originally Posted by Dj Anarkee

Where did you find the captive bred clean up crew you have? I'm not having any luck googling it.

IPSF has some snails that are captive bred. Strombus Grazers when they have them. Anyway I ordered some from them, 6, and now have a bunch. Easy breeders in the tank, especially fuges.

[Ron Reefman]

Guys, don't get me wrong. I think TBS rock is great stuff, and if I had the room I'd fill a tank with it and just let it grow. I was just making the point that the OP was looking to have NO IMPACT which I take to mean all aquacultured.