The "How to go Barebottom thread."

[MiddletonMark]

Great post Mike/Mojo, your points about flow [it's not how much it's what you do with it], detritus on rocks, location of detritus piles for siphoning ... dead on from what I've experienced.

I wouldn't have believed it, but I feel like my tank did better after I removed the large volume closed loop and put in a couple powerheads for better directed flow but half the volume.
I've added more flow since, mainly because when a deal on a 6060 comes by, you take it.

While I hate cords, IMO in a small tall tank like mine the directionality of powerheads is hard to get past without using PVC instead of LR. Different sized/shaped tank ... you may have a different answer to it than I do, or than others here do.

And the aquascaping works into this. I've personally removed rock [and likely will remove one or two more pieces] since having a stable BB tank ... with good results as the flow/detritus->overflow works better.

I sure don't claim to be an expert, just know what I've found being the happy caretaker of my tank in the last 13 months

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by photobarry
He means: "Is not necessary."

Thank you.

[kellymm7149]

will aptasia survive the brew? i would hate to lose them fun aside will it kill them?

[photobarry]

Originally posted by kellymm7149
will aptasia survive the brew? i would hate to lose them fun aside will it kill them?

They shouldn't survive proper rock cooking. I cooked some rock for many months just to be sure they were all gone.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by kellymm7149
will aptasia survive the brew? i would hate to lose them fun aside will it kill them?

I concur with Barry...aiptasia seem to be dependant on light...all mine that I had left (I had an efficient Pepp shrimp) died.

I no longer have the shrimp and have no aiptasia.

So without reintroducing them...I should theoretically be aiptasia free forever.

[Mojoreef]

Mark its more of a common sence approach when it comes to flow, no need to be an expert. As the tank ages you will find yourself removing corals and LR. As the corals form mature colonies thier stratagies for dominance become more apperent and its best to remoe the none dominant ones or they will eventually sucumb. Same applies to LR, as the corals mature more space will be required to allow the to grow out. Last september I had to remove about 400 lbs just to be able to keep the flow viable and allowfor more growing space.

Got a question for the LR cookers. Are you saying that all LR need to be cooked or that when changing over from rock that has been sitting on sand you need to??
Also was your reasoning that the rock was unable to shed and thus held its organics??


thanks

Mike

[ezhoops]

Ok, to answer the question on the last page, I have a aqua c urchin in sump skimmer, my sump is a 18 gal tall(basically a 10 gallon but much taller) as far a drains go, I currently use both my holes in my overflow as drains. one is the main drain (which empties into the sump) and other is the safety back up drain. I have a direct pvc pipe from my mag 9 which is in the sump to the main display which is my main source of flow.


My plan: (tell me your thoughts)
54 gal Bow front BB
upgrade Mag 9 to something less noisey and with more flow (suggestions please) I would prefer internal
Upgrade sump if necessary (currently aqua c urchin in sump)
place two 1100 seio's in tank (already purchased one)
cutting board on bottom
develop crate/ shelf system 2 sections (need help with design)
at this time I'm also going to start using eggcrate as opposed to my glass top (better light penetration)
might also be the time to switch to halides

[bkwudzjeep]

Along with the aiptasia question.....would flatworms survive?

[SeanT]

Nope, not in my opinion.
Though I am not positive, I beleive they are somewhat beholden to light.
They always seem to appear in the most numbers with the lighs on.
Kind of like diatoms...I always found that weird.

But to be sure, you could always do a FW exit treatment in the cooking tubs.
Go extra strength...nothing much to kill in there after all.

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by Mojoreef
Got a question for the LR cookers. Are you saying that all LR need to be cooked or that when changing over from rock that has been sitting on sand you need to??
Also was your reasoning that the rock was unable to shed and thus held its organics??


thanks

Mike

I like to think of it in terms of establishing a new equilibrium…


You start out with recently cured live rock, or rock, which has been sitting in a nutrient-rich tank for a long time. The rock contains a lot of organic material on it and in it.

Then, you move the rock to a nutrient-poor environment (like a cooking tub, where you have clean salt water, no light or food).

Since bacteria and small animals aren’t going to find any nutrients in the water, or any other source in the tub, they are going to start using the nutrients on the rock for food. Their little bodies are going to absorb nutrients, then die and sink to the bottom. Or, they are going to release nutrients, which where bound to the rock, into the water. So, with each siphoning of detritus or water change, you’re exporting the nutrients they absorbed into their little bodies and exporting the nutrients they released into the water.

Ultimately, all the little critters will use up all, easily-available nutrients from the rock, and their populations will begin to drop. Fewer and fewer little bodies will mean less and less detritus to siphon out of your tub.

When you are done, you will have reached equilibrium again with relatively nutrient poor rock and relatively nutrient poor water.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Mojoreef

Got a question for the LR cookers. Are you saying that all LR need to be cooked or that when changing over from rock that has been sitting on sand you need to??

As much of it as you can, including the rock not in the sand.
If you want to be hardcore, chisel off colonies.
Personally, I always mount corals to baseball sized rocks and not the large pieces.

But if you have some corals that are just so encrusted and you dont want to chisel that is ok too.
Those few rocks will shed and you will just siphon it off.

Sean

[ezhoops]

Ok in order to stop the confusion here is a detailed diagram of my tank as I would like it to be set up as BB.

Some items shown I don't actually have yet and need to purchase: UV sterilzer, new pump, and ??skimmer??

here goes, tell me thoughts

[ezhoops]

now to see it without a download

[ezhoops]

ok didn't work, sorry just have to download it unless you can figure it out

[causeofhim]

Maybe I missed it somewhere but, I have a question. about cooking your liverock.

If you're cooking the liverock to kill the "bacteria and small animals", why do we spend top $ for "live" rock? It sounds as if Weatherman is suggesting we shouldn't use liverock in the first place. Is this true?

I am thinking along the lines of Mojoreef, and can understand if the rock has been sitting in a tank with a DSB and sitting under the sand. But, if you have rock that is not in the sand and part of your maintence is to blow the detrius from the rocks frequently, why would you want to kill the liverock?

[Ereefic]

Your not cooking rock to 'kill the bacteria and small animals', that is why your cooking it in heated, circulated salt water. By keeping it in the dark, your letting the bacteria work the crap out of the nooks and crannies. Dunking and swishing the rock and doing lots of water changes to keep the water clean and nutrients low.

That is how I see it anyways, but I could be wrong.

[SeanT]

We are NOT "cooking" live rock to kill anything.
(Though the demise of aiptasia, flatworms etc is a bonus).
Please read the first post carefully.
The "cooking" is to rid the rocks pores of built up phosphorous, which fuels algal growth.

[causeofhim]

Originally posted by Weatherman
Their little bodies are going to absorb nutrients, then die and sink to the bottom Ultimately, all the little critters will use up all, easily-available nutrients from the rock, and their populations will begin to drop. Fewer and fewer little bodies will mean less and less detritus to siphon out of your tub.

I understand now. Weatherman's statement confused me.

[just dave]

its not so much how much flow you can add as much as it is how well you have it designed

I agree with this as well. I don't use as much total flow as is often recommended and as many here do(not that there is anything wrong with doing so.). I instead use devices that create a lot of random( though it's never truly random) current patterns and timed pulses. Also,as you've pointed out, this is something that needs to be reevaluated as the system matures and corals get larger.

[causeofhim]

OK, I re-read everything and I have a couple of extra questions.

When I cook my rock, should I have a cleaning crew in there?

You state: During the first couple of weeks it is recommended to do a swishing and dunking of the rocks twice a week. How often does this need to be done after the first couple of weeks?

Do you need to use RO water to cook your rocks?

[MiddletonMark]

Yes, RO water is crucial for rock-cooking. As far as I get it, you want the water to be as low-nutrient as possible ... thus replacing it [or just making up a second tub, transferring rock after dunking].

I only cooked some of mine, just took longer for the tank to clean-up without cooking it all, IMO.

CauseofHim ... check Ereefic's BB at Sunday's meeting. If around Madtown, come check mine out. Seems like we do things slightly differently, yet I think we're both pretty successful with it.
Might be useful, if not you just get to flatter us by checking out our tanks

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by causeofhim
I understand now. Weatherman's statement confused me.

It has to do with the lifecycle of the critters. They are "born", live and die at a very fast rate, to be replaced by the next generation.

The lifecycle of bacteria is the fastest. That's why we want the bacteria to work for us.

What we are letting them do is reproduce, feed on organic material, die, and then remove their little bodies. Before they die, of course, they have reproduced to generate a whole bunch of additional copies of themselves. So, based on how much food is available, you may have more little critters or fewer little critters than you did before.

When you are all done, you will still have an abundant population of little critters, but they will have reached equilibrium with the new, lower, food supply.

[Mojoreef]

Thanks Weatherman, I do fully understand the concept of cooking LR and it does work very well. I have just never heard it used as a requirement before. For me I always just preached it when the rocks began to develop algae in a system where the nutrient were low. Anyway thats why I was trying to see if it was a conversion thing.
Most of my LR lasted with out issue for about 8 years before I had to deal with it cooking wise. To be honest I didnt have the patcience for the cooking process, I just took out the bad rocks and bioled them and then resseded them with good rock. It only took a day to deal with it and they were back to normal in a month or so. Now I am talking with LR that had been in a tank for a long time, not fresh LR.


thanks


Mike

[ezhoops]

any thoughts, suggestions on my set up?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Mojoreef
I just took out the bad rocks and bioled them and then resseded them with good rock. It only took a day to deal with it and they were back to normal in a month or so.
thanks
Mike

Mike, I still think that's a slower process. If you really "cook" them you're going to kill the bacteria that you need to mobilize, transport, and remove nutrients from the rock.
Then have to wait on those bacteria to get established again, to start the process.

Like waiting on a DSB to get established. Doesn't that take months sometimes.