AquaIllumination PAR Measurements

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by neelix

Anyone having problems keeping LPS? My hammers have been receding ever since I switched to 3 AI modules. Would to much light be the cause? Currently running 3 on a 93 cube whites at 40% blues 100% about 8 inches above the water.
Alk at 9 Cal at 450 mag 1350 and no nitrates or detectable phosphates.

It's AMAZING how much PAR the Crees crank out. To give you a benchmark, I just set my AIs to 40%W/100%B to match your settings which yielded the following PAR measurements using an Apogee MQ-200...

8" Air -1080
12" Air -815
16" (4" water) - 560

I can't accurately measure any deeper due to light being blocked by my aquascape. This is directly under ONE unit with a small amount of light spillage from the second AI. Since you have three AIs, your numbers will be higher (especially if measured below the center unit.)

[neelix]

Par meters aren't cheap but considering the output of these I think your right. My 4th AI will be here today! The hammers are on the bottom already and the zoos and softies.

I have no SPS at the moment this was a tank transfer so I am thinking a combination of stress from the move and not acclimating properly was/is the cause.

[wesley6610]

Agreed, I think that my estimations were so off after making my DIY unit, the only thing that "clicked" was when I observed how much my clam on the sand bed opened up to the light. That let me know that things at the top were getting fried and photo inhibition was setting in for all those corals near the top. I lost two monti caps and a few other SPS, but since getting a PAR meter and fine tuning my meanwells, it's looking real good and everything has recovered.

You are correct, PAR meters aren't cheap, but neither is anything else in this hobby. I wrestled with buying a meter that once I set my powersupllies would sit in a box until I decided to build a new fixture or make changes to my unit height. However, without a meter I knew that hundreds of dollars in corals could suffer and die, so the choice was simple. I also had no one in my area to borrow from, so it came down to me either sticking with T5's or using my advanced savings from LEDs on a PAR meter, I went with the latter and it was the right choice for me.

I hear that you can attempt to convert with a Lux meter, but I have no experience with that or if its even going to give you accurate enough numbers for you to really extrapolate from.

[jtma508]

This may not be easily answered but I figured I give it a shot. I've been seriously considering getting an AI system for my 90gal deep tank. However, I'm limited above the tank where the AI fixtures would need to be mounted 5" above the tank. Would that work without spotlighting?

[wesley6610]

As I don't have an AI fixture, I would be at a disadvantage answering this, but I will do my best to help you. From the bottom of the AI fixture, you are saying that its around 5" from that to the water line? How high in your tank are your current corals placed and what types of specimens do you have? I have a DIY array with Cree emitters 24 x 2 and at 12" above I had to turn my whites down to 35% and blues at 50% to get about 420 at water line and 150ish at the sand in my 75 gallon reef. I have 60 degree optics and about 1" spacing between LEDs.

[jtma508]

Yes, I'd have a max of 5" beteen the bottom of the AI and the waterline. Right now I have a mix of LPS and softies since my current lighting would never support SPS. That will change when I upgrade my lighting.

[wesley6610]

Well, I would suggest the same to you, if you decide to get the AI fixture, spend another $325 and get a PAR meter, that's the best way that you will know what to dial your white/blue levels to be. Also, be sure that you are getting good ventilation between the top of the fixture and the ceiling for the fans to remove the heat adequately.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by jtma508

This may not be easily answered but I figured I give it a shot. I've been seriously considering getting an AI system for my 90gal deep tank. However, I'm limited above the tank where the AI fixtures would need to be mounted 5" above the tank. Would that work without spotlighting?

This is a bit tough to answer as it depends largely on the number of AI units you are planning and your aquascape. Assuming your tank is 48", AI recommends 4 units. This would eliminate any shadows unless your tank was extremely shallow (substrate < ~16".) This would also provide a MASSIVE amount of PAR which means you'd likely be running then at very low power settings (which is good as you can have any/every color you wish including 25K+ blue if desired.)

It's possible you could get by with 3 units if your rockwork and corals aren't near the top. I'd probably order 48" rails, but only 3 units to try and see - if needed, you can always add a 4th unit.

FWIW, I initially had 2 units mounted on top of a 24" tank using the AI rails (the hanging kit had not yet been released.) I have shallow tank with a DSB and my aquascaping reaches to the very top of the tank (SPS within 8" of the AIs.) As a result, I had both photoinhibition/bleaching and significant spot-lighting issues.

The best answer is being able to raise them higher. They work within the confines of a hood, but because you have less coverage, you need more units.

[wesley6610]

Agreed. I think raising the fixture is the easiest way to adjust intensity with these fixtures, but I can't stress enough how fundamentally its important to be able to verify the intensity with a PAR meter if you can budget one into your purchase.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by wesley6610

I can't stress enough how fundamentally its important to be able to verify the intensity with a PAR meter if you can budget one into your purchase.

+1 Hopefully the PAR values I've posted and stories of corals blasted to death make that point

The challenge is the massive amount of PAR LEDS (40 degree optic Crees in particular) generate is deceiving - Especially when mounted close to the water. It's very hard to estimate when comparing the appearance of MH to LEDS as the optics deliver the light energy where pointed with little glare or spillage and there is little if any heat felt. These factors combine to convince a new LED owner that their lights are "less powerful" (I've seen new LED owners generating 2000+ PAR initially complain their new LEDs were too dim compared to their 250W MH.)

"Just the 16 blue Cree LEDS (48 watts) contained in 2 AI units running at 100% generate 460+ PAR at 12" - That's more than a typical 150W MH."

I also suspect this is a leading cause of complaints that SPS "lose color" under LEDs. When users initially try to imitate the "look" of their MH or T5s, it results in about 300% more PAR being delivered - Their poor SPS placed a foot or less below the light go from averaging 400 PAR or less under their old 250W MH to 1300+ virtually overnight...and you wonder why they look a little pale

[NaClCrocodile]

A few pages back someone said that the AI controller could not simulate cloud cover etc. Is this true? I thought it was one of the features.

Great thread by the way, I'm interested in seeing how they stack up in 2-3 years.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by NaClCrocodile

A few pages back someone said that the AI controller could not simulate cloud cover etc. Is this true? I thought it was one of the features.

Great thread by the way, I'm interested in seeing how they stack up in 2-3 years.

The present version of the controller provides individual ramping control for the blue and white LEDs individually in 1% increments along with Lunar scheduling and intensity variations. This allows you to create custom sunrise/sunset and mid-day PAR increases - but not cloud simulations.

The cloud cover and thunderstorm features are available currently with a Profilux controller. Neptune is about to release an AI interface for the Apex controller that provides numerous advanced features as well.

[wesley6610]

I unknowingly blasted a few SPS colonies with too much light once I setup my fixture for that exact reason you mentioned, tank looking too dim. Heck, I'm still running 2 x ATI blue special T5 bulbs to lighten up the tank, even though most of my PAR is coming from the LEDs. Soon I will be replacing those T5 bulbs with Ecoxtic stunner strips to reduce electrical draw, while supplementing the tank during midday a bit more!

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by wesley6610

I unknowingly blasted a few SPS colonies with too much light once I setup my fixture for that exact reason you mentioned, tank looking too dim. Heck, I'm still running 2 x ATI blue special T5 bulbs to lighten up the tank

Wow - I couldn't imaging needing more light with the AI's. I find the amount of light to be visually, extremely bright at the higher settings. That's another feature I love about the AI's - The controller ROCKS. With the turn of a dial you can fine tune both intensity and color (staying within acceptable PAR output of course.)

I see you built your own fixture using Cree Royal Blues - In comparing the SemiLED Royal blues used in the G2 to the Cree Blues used in the AI, to my eye, the Cree Blues are much brighter (even taking into account the light spillage and glare from the G2) - Although that may have more to do with SemiLED vs Cree than Royal blue vs Blue.

Color is obviously subjective to the user, but I actually find myself getting a headache from the light from the SemiLEDS Royal blues. It might just be from the light spillage and glare (waiting for a new hanging kit so I can lower them further), but the violet/purple color seems to bother my eyes. It might also be the Violet LEDS, but as they seem to put out little if any visible light, It's unlikely.

I'm probably just getting old

[wesley6610]

Well, I didn't think so either, but once I took my PAR measurements, it wasn't a thing of needing more "light" for growth, but pleasing look. So I went 1:1 white to blue, but wanted an even tone everywhere. What I found was that the intensity of the LEDs both with and without optics left a good amount of shade on the edges. No matter how high I mounted the arrays, their was still shade in areas I really didn't want it, so I got that retro to fix just that issue and subsequently was able to turn down the whites a bit more to just 35%.

Yeah, I used the XRE's for both whites and blues and its electric the way they shine and put to shame bulb actinics for sure! Now, I didn't want to blast the tank to death either, so that's why I have them turned down to just 50% and it works well for all things I have in there now.

I think that my next DIY unit will have a better spread of light than my current ones and perhaps some angled LEDs to help with shading and targeted light to areas that need it the most. Let me find some pics I can insert...

[wesley6610]

[jtma508]

I'm sure by now everyone here has seen this but AI is planning to offer replacement pucks with a vareity of LED combinations:

http://************.com/2010/04/26/t...nd-royal-blue/

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by jtma508

I'm sure by now everyone here has seen this but AI is planning to offer replacement pucks with a vareity of LED combinations:

http://************.com/2010/04/26/t...nd-royal-blue/

RC will not allow links to some other forums (just Google tri color LED pucks)

I'm looking forward to seeing the new white/blue/royal blue pucks - I think it will be a great balance of PAR, Color and POP. The new AI Beam LED Tubes look interesting as well (Google AI Beam LED.)

[jtma508]

sorry... my bad.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by jtma508

sorry... my bad.

No Worries

AI has released an upgrade kit for the Generation One units, hopefully the new tri-color pucks won't be far behind. It looks as if it's simple to remove/replace the pucks so we'll be able to complete the upgrade without having to ship them back to AI

[jtma508]

Yea, in the same unmentionable source I read an article where they tear-down an AI unit just to see how hard it would be to upgrade. It's actually very simple to do. And the pucks are very easily replaceable. Ya gotta love that.

[neelix]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

No Worries

AI has released an upgrade kit for the Generation One units, hopefully the new tri-color pucks won't be far behind. It looks as if it's simple to remove/replace the pucks so we'll be able to complete the upgrade without having to ship them back to AI

They say summer but that may mean fall for the new pucks. I bet they will be very expensive so I am just going to supplement with some blue led tubes.

[reefsafe]

I am running 6 modules on a 7 foot tank

sorry for the bad quality of the pics

[neelix]

Yeah they sent me number 4 on Monday and they switched the blues to royal blues. They messed up they knew I had the regular blues. Now I have to wait till they get some in and I bet i'll have to ship the module back. The new royals look violet with a touch of pink which would be fine if they matched the other 3.

[jtma508]

Wait till the tri-color pucks come out (supposedly this fall). One each royal blue, blue and warm white. Mixing these in with the standard pucks will give you just about any look you could want with a broader overall spectrum.