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Unread 05/09/2009, 11:51 AM   #1
subarcticreef
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Collospongia Auris vs Cyanos

For a long period of time my tank has been plagued by red cyano in corners with limited water circulation. When I introduced a Collospongia Auris the cyano disappeared overnight!
Recently I had the opportunity to discuss sponges with an academic scientist specializing in sponges. He mentioned that several photosynthetic sponges have a symbiotic relationship with cyanos that grow within the sponges. That made think about the possibility that the Collospongia-associated cyanos may compete with the free-living red cyanos. Therefore, addition of the collospongia may caused the red cyano to disappear.

Are there anyone else with a similar experience? Would be fantastic if a Collospongia colony could be "the cure" for red cyanos.


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Unread 05/09/2009, 01:05 PM   #2
HighlandReefer
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I can't see how adding this sponge to your system could eliminate cyano overnight. I would question this.

Just FYI, I have read several threads regarding Collospongia Auris. Apparently it can become quite a nuisance and slowly cover your rock.


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Unread 05/09/2009, 01:09 PM   #3
subarcticreef
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Quote:
Originally posted by HighlandReefer
I can't see how adding this sponge to your system could eliminate cyano overnight. I would question this.

Just FYI, I have read several threads regarding Collospongia Auris. Apparently it can become quite a nuisance and slowly cover your rock.
Let me say that I was quite surprised myself. 11 mo with cyanos and then they vanished essentially overnight!


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Unread 06/08/2009, 12:56 PM   #4
subarcticreef
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One month into this experiment and still no detectable cyanos! Would be interested to hear if anyone else has made this observation?


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Unread 06/08/2009, 02:13 PM   #5
subarcticreef
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Sponges contain a multitude of pharmacologically active compounds. What if sponges also can produces substances capable of killing cyanos? Like certain molds produce substances that kill germs (like penicillin)?


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Unread 06/08/2009, 08:08 PM   #6
drstupid
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could be: coincidence.


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Unread 06/08/2009, 11:14 PM   #7
subarcticreef
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Quote:
Originally posted by drstupid
could be: coincidence.
Absolutely. Therefore it would be interesting to hear if someone else has made the same observation.


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Unread 06/09/2009, 05:10 AM   #8
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I think this particular species of sponge is symbiotic with cyanobacteria like corals with zooxanthellae...Anthony Calfo told me this at his visit to Greece.I am almost sure it was that sponge.There was in a 500G tank , it kept an area of 10 inches, and it didn't have to do anything with cyano occurence, though....


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Unread 06/09/2009, 08:25 AM   #9
subarcticreef
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Quote:
Originally posted by tasos
I think this particular species of sponge is symbiotic with cyanobacteria like corals with zooxanthellae...Anthony Calfo told me this at his visit to Greece.I am almost sure it was that sponge.There was in a 500G tank , it kept an area of 10 inches, and it didn't have to do anything with cyano occurence, though....
Yes, that seems to be correct. This photosynthetic sponge is symbiotic w cyanos. But you mean that in spite of an area being covered by the sponge, there was still red cyanos growing elsewhere in the tank?


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Unread 06/10/2009, 12:23 AM   #10
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Re: Collospongia Auris vs Cyanos

Quote:
Originally posted by subarcticreef
For a long period of time my tank has been plagued by red cyano in corners with limited water circulation. When I introduced a Collospongia Auris the cyano disappeared overnight!
Recently I had the opportunity to discuss sponges with an academic scientist specializing in sponges. He mentioned that several photosynthetic sponges have a symbiotic relationship with cyanos that grow within the sponges. That made think about the possibility that the Collospongia-associated cyanos may compete with the free-living red cyanos. Therefore, addition of the collospongia may caused the red cyano to disappear.

Are there anyone else with a similar experience? Would be fantastic if a Collospongia colony could be "the cure" for red cyanos.
Did you introduce the Sponge to your tank or to your sump, just curious.


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Unread 06/10/2009, 03:05 AM   #11
wayne in norway
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I suppose another possibility is the nutrient competing with the cynao for nutrients.


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Unread 06/10/2009, 12:05 PM   #12
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Where did you find the sponge?

Edit: After some reading, I'm not certain I want to know. This sponge seems to have a reputation for overgrowing and shading things like gorgonianss and corals.


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Unread 06/10/2009, 01:32 PM   #13
subarcticreef
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The sponge is in the display tank. I am not so concerned over the risk over overgrowing. At least in my tank, it grows less fast than the Anthelia and some other softies.

I bought it in a store.


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Unread 06/10/2009, 01:34 PM   #14
subarcticreef
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Quote:
Originally posted by wayne in norway
I suppose another possibility is the nutrient competing with the cynao for nutrients.
Yes, that is certainly possible. The red cyaon did, however, disappear very rapidly which to me suggests that is released something rather than remowing nutrients.


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Unread 06/13/2009, 04:44 PM   #15
dudley moray
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any pics?


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Unread 06/16/2009, 04:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by subarcticreef
I bought it in a store.
What city was that store in, if you don't mind my asking? I've never seen that particular sponge for sale in Phoenix, AZ.


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Unread 06/28/2009, 07:04 PM   #17
subarcticreef
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Quote:
Originally posted by KarlBob
What city was that store in, if you don't mind my asking? I've never seen that particular sponge for sale in Phoenix, AZ.
I live in Switzerland and bought it here. I have, however, seen this sponge in several stores that I have visited in the US so I do not think it is to difficult to get hold of.

Have been away for two weeks and my daughter has been taking care of the tank. She likes to feed the fish so the phophate level has gone up and there is plenty of macros. But no cyanos and the collospongia has not overgrown anything (in contrast to the Anthelia).


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Unread 07/18/2009, 08:23 AM   #18
subarcticreef
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A friend of mine got a (large) collospongia frag. His slime (cyano) disappeared over night.


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Unread 07/18/2009, 10:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by dudley moray
any pics?
Here:

http://www.saltcorner.com/sections/z...ges/Cauris.htm


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Unread 07/19/2009, 08:03 PM   #20
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if you doesed a cyano killer like red slime remover, would it kill the cyano that lives symbioticaly with the sponge? also, to "test" your theory, why not add some cyano from a locals tank and see what happens?

come on......inm the name of science! i will subscribe to this thread if you do.


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Unread 07/21/2009, 11:45 AM   #21
subarcticreef
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Quote:
Originally posted by ctenophors rule
if you doesed a cyano killer like red slime remover, would it kill the cyano that lives symbioticaly with the sponge? also, to "test" your theory, why not add some cyano from a locals tank and see what happens?

come on......inm the name of science! i will subscribe to this thread if you do.
That collospongia has symbiotic cyanos is -to the best of my knowledge- not a hypothesis but an established fact. so, if the collospongia cyanos are sensitive to the cyano killer they will die 8together with the sponge)

Your other experiment is interesting and I have actually already done it. But I guess that is -in a way- like shooting on sitting duck. My tank did not contain any red slime and therefore it is reasonable to assume that the conditions for cyanos are not right. So, it is not surprising that the slime from "the outside" disappeared.

But I have provided a friend with a collospongia frag and it will be interesting to see if his slime disappears.


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Unread 07/24/2009, 06:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by subarcticreef
I live in Switzerland and bought it here. I have, however, seen this sponge in several stores that I have visited in the US so I do not think it is to difficult to get hold of.

Have been away for two weeks and my daughter has been taking care of the tank. She likes to feed the fish so the phophate level has gone up and there is plenty of macros. But no cyanos and the collospongia has not overgrown anything (in contrast to the Anthelia).
(revisting this thread after my wry "coincidence" comment :-)

every tank i've ever personally known has gone through a cyano bloom, and it disappears practically overnight once whatever needed to get naturally in balance got there. i don't know the history of your system, but don't think it's unusual for systems to go through a cyano phase and to have it end suddenly. that would be my argument for coincidence.

i can't imagine an overnight change would come from the cyano being outcompeted by a freshly introduced specimen, so it would have to be some sort of chemical reaction to something the sponge produces, probably produced in large quantities after the stress of transfer and introduction. i don't see how it could affect things so quickly otherwise.

if the cyano bloom wasn't just a phase naturally ending, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your system that's allowing it to prosper (flow and/or nutrients) and this doesn't seem like the best way to control it, especially if the sponge is as invasive as it sounds. moving the sponge colonies to your sump or a seperate fuge inline with the system would seem to be wise if this is something you do want to keep permanently for cyano control.

i'd still pursue whatever the underlying cause of the outbreak was if you do attribute its demise to the introduction of the sponge.

my 2 pfennigs.

on an unrelated note, i lived in switzerland for a few years, and the hobby did not have a broad base there at the time. i was only ever able to find one reef store, in zuerich. i can't remember its name, it was over by a hotel with a very nice piano bar. it was small, very clean (of course!), and only had dimly lit tanks with softies, xenia, polyps and mushrooms, no SPS at all. i knew no one professionally or personally who maintained a reef system.

that was 20 years ago, so i'm sure things have changed, and i am curious what the state of the hobby is there. i still have fond memories of the place, know a few expats who settled there permanently, and try to imagine what it would have been like to have stayed longer. it would have been a challenge to put together a reef in zuerich at the time i lived there without many trips to germany with rubbermaid in the trunk.

(i don't mean to hijack your thread, feel free to PM me if you'd like to keep it on topic)


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Unread 07/25/2009, 04:06 AM   #23
subarcticreef
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Quote:
Originally posted by drstupid
(revisting this thread after my wry "coincidence" comment :-)

every tank i've ever personally known has gone through a cyano bloom, and it disappears practically overnight once whatever needed to get naturally in balance got there. i don't know the history of your system, but don't think it's unusual for systems to go through a cyano phase and to have it end suddenly. that would be my argument for coincidence.

i can't imagine an overnight change would come from the cyano being outcompeted by a freshly introduced specimen, so it would have to be some sort of chemical reaction to something the sponge produces, probably produced in large quantities after the stress of transfer and introduction. i don't see how it could affect things so quickly otherwise.

if the cyano bloom wasn't just a phase naturally ending, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your system that's allowing it to prosper (flow and/or nutrients) and this doesn't seem like the best way to control it, especially if the sponge is as invasive as it sounds. moving the sponge colonies to your sump or a seperate fuge inline with the system would seem to be wise if this is something you do want to keep permanently for cyano control.

i'd still pursue whatever the underlying cause of the outbreak was if you do attribute its demise to the introduction of the sponge.

my 2 pfennigs.

on an unrelated note, i lived in switzerland for a few years, and the hobby did not have a broad base there at the time. i was only ever able to find one reef store, in zuerich. i can't remember its name, it was over by a hotel with a very nice piano bar. it was small, very clean (of course!), and only had dimly lit tanks with softies, xenia, polyps and mushrooms, no SPS at all. i knew no one professionally or personally who maintained a reef system.

that was 20 years ago, so i'm sure things have changed, and i am curious what the state of the hobby is there. i still have fond memories of the place, know a few expats who settled there permanently, and try to imagine what it would have been like to have stayed longer. it would have been a challenge to put together a reef in zuerich at the time i lived there without many trips to germany with rubbermaid in the trunk.

(i don't mean to hijack your thread, feel free to PM me if you'd like to keep it on topic)
I do not think I ever had a cyano bloom in the tank, not even in the beginning (started it in May of last year). The cyanos grew in relatively small patches in two of the corners of the tank where, I guess, the circulation was less than optimal. Anyway, I had it there for, I think, 9 months. And then it vanished after the Collospongia was introduced. I am perfectly open to that this could be a coincidence or that the tank only required a small change for it to become less habitable for the slime. But if we take a closer look at the Collospongia, this COULD make sense. First, its tissue contains large quantities of cyanos with -I guess- roughly the same requirements for nutrients as the slime. Second, sponges are effective pumps that expose their symbiotic cyanos to whatever the water contains in terms of nutrients. Third, cyanos are known for producing many different toxins of which several have antibiotic properties. It would not surprise me if at least some of these toxins are used in "chemical warfare" with other competing cyanos. My guess is that there could be a combination of "chemical warfare" and competition (assuming limiting amounts of nutrients for the cyanos) going on.
Anyway, I am perfectly open to my observation being just a coincidence and therefore it would be interesting to hear what experiences other Collospongia owners have.

The salt water hobby has really taken off here. I live in the Basel area (right on the borders between Switzerland, France and Germany). Within 30 mins we have at least 5 saltwater dealers and the selection of animals and equipment is just amazing. I guess it is the proximity to Germany, where the modern version of the hobby was invented, that has triggered this.


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Unread 07/28/2009, 07:06 PM   #24
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i'm glad to hear the hobby is prospering there. i realized reading your response that my description of the zuerich LFS was pretty much like most philly LFS at the time... 20 years goes by very quickly! and so much has changed with our hobby. i just hope the current economic downturn doesn't crush it. my personal experience is 3 friends who've shut their systems down vs. just one who's decided to set his first up.

if this sponge is such a potent cyano killer on immediate introduction, and is so invasive that it's not a good long term inhabitant, then perhaps it would be a good thing to just move a frag around local tanks with cyano blooms. sort of like having a roaming bergia crew locally to eat aips (we've got some folks trying to establish that here). anything natural to combat recurring nuisances would seem preferable to dosing your tank with something like boyds, like a few folks with older systems make part of their routine.

your cyano problem sounds like it was pretty minor, not a big bloom, so it'd be interesting to hear what the sponge does to a major breakout.

chuess! (sorry my schweizerdeutch was always terrible.)


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Unread 08/01/2009, 07:30 AM   #25
NeveroddoreveN
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Quote:
I live in the Basel area (right on the borders between Switzerland, France and Germany). Within 30 mins we have at least 5 saltwater dealers and the selection of animals and equipment is just amazing. [/B]
That really wounds like the place to be. The nearest SW LFS is about an hour away from where I am. What are the main differences in the hobby in Europe compared to the U.S?


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