NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[Beenalongtime79]

Pat,

With all things being equal... you should not have to adjust your setup constantly. I don't... It takes time to equilibrate back to the old level when you are making rapid changes in water levels or you get air sucked into the return pump.

Peace,
John H.

[patsan]

Gotcha! Thanks!

[Beenalongtime79]

The more experience you have w/ it, the better it'll be when predicting how it behaves. I'm glad that you are happy w/ the zero noise level!

Peace,
John H.

[patsan]

Originally posted by rufio173
The more experience you have w/ it, the better it'll be when predicting how it behaves. I'm glad that you are happy w/ the zero noise level! Peace, John H.

Oh man....I couldn't be any happier with it.
I read this thread months back, but my husband said he didn't want to re-do the plumbing on the tank. So I forgot all about it.
Last week Nirol linked it in our TBS thread, and since I had to plumb the tank I just got, I figured why not try it. Even though it took me from Saturday until yesterday to do all the plumbing, it was totally worth it. I also feel very confident that I have 2 emergancy drains, but I also don't think my main drain will ever get clogged. Just nice to know it's there if needed.
But again, I couldn't be happier and I thank everyone for all their help with any questions I asked to get it all done and set up.

[ribs]

Has anyones tank overflowed, or any other disasters/close-calls that arose from using this method?

[drock59]

that is the point of this method. No overflow or flood if you do it right.

[RGibson]

Herbie that emergency return is a very good idea,that is very similar to what is used for large chill water return tanks with water flow of 5,000 gal per min and up.

[patsan]

Nope, it's all working great!

[KAiNE]

Anyone using an auto top off with this method?

I got 2 drains merging into one; therefore I get a slight fluctuation in water height (+/- ½ ") in my sump. Flow rate of about 2800gph.

[Beenalongtime79]

I've been using autotopoff for a long time now and it works great, but I don't really need an autotopoff to get this system to work flawlessly, since my return area is baffled off so that water in the sump where the return line is submerged never fluctuates.

Peace,
John H.

[javajaws]

Anybody have any idea if this would work with a pair of side/top mounted bulkheads plumbed into an overflow skimmer box appx 12x6x6? I'm worried that there wouldn't be enough head pressure on the primary drain to make this work.

Also, has anybody tried plumbing a recirculating skimmer feed line off the primary drain line...any luck? I would think as long as the skimmer feed is consistent in the GPH going thru it wouldn't matter.

[Andreash]

I haven't read the entire thread, but here is a tool that can be used to calculate the flow.

to get better results, you need to apply some flow equations..








The outflow is basically a first order system, and the valve that thread starter uses to get the correct height in his overflow, is represented by "a". The level of water in the pipes is "H", "g" is gravity and "A" is area of the watercoloumn..


so in my opinion, threadstarters idea is great, and is based on good theory.

Altough I havent tested high flowrates. It should be no problem to get this system to work with high flowrates. But when the flow gets higher, the stability will suffer.. meaning that if dirt or algae is building up near the vent, high flow systems will overflow sooner, and the emergency drain get som flow in it..
Basically will the highest flowrate for this system be the same as for an open pipeline straight to the sump, since this occurres when the valve is fully open..

Some cool features with this system, is that you could implement full electroncally control of the flow by letting a small pressuretransmitter measure the "height" of water in the pipes, and regulate the flow with PID-control on your returnpump.
And this could give us the opportunity to maximize the flowrate to the owerflows limits..

There is a lot of cool stuff to learn and use in the world of electronics combined with our reef tanks..!

[Qdoggie]

What ever happened to just a goldfish in a bowl???


Great input Andereash. W O W, this industry has come a long way.

[BeanAnimal]

I have skimmed through this thread and I think the major aspects of this design are being lost in all of the banter.

ANy time you fully submerge an overflow, it becomes a siphon. If the free flow of the system (air and water) is enough to keep up with the return pump, then this will work. A siphon will pull more water than a pipe flowing with air and water.

The concept is very simple, you start a siphon and dial back the valves so that the siphon is slowed enough to keep the overflow box from draining and sucking air... or overlfowing and causing a flood.

The seperate emergency standpipe Must be there because such a system is not reliable. The "balance" is achieved by chanign the flow with a ball valve. Because this is a siphon, sump level, barometric pressure, specific gravity, slime in the pipes... etc etc will have an effect on the siphon strenght and therefore the postion of the valve.

In other words if you use this method without an emergency standpipe drain, you are asking for trouble. There is no way around it. You also still run the risk of sucking air and making noise..... that is why most of us don't use a ball valve to create a full siphon. Instead we allow air to be introduced to the drain system.

With a standpipe that draws air, there is NO chance of overflow due to sump level, baromatric pressure, pump fluctuations etc. If the air intake becomes blocked the system creates a full siphon and prevents overflow. If one is smart enough to hook airlines to the top of the standpipes and curl them over to the max water level... an emergency siphon is created if the water rises enough to cover the airline openings.

Bean

Bean

[javajaws]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
In other words if you use this method without an emergency standpipe drain, you are asking for trouble. There is no way around it. You also still run the risk of sucking air and making noise..... that is why most of us don't use a ball valve to create a full siphon. Instead we allow air to be introduced to the drain system.

I think its been stated over and over again that this method can't be used without a backup overflow....its a critical part of the mechanism because of the reasons you have mentioned.

However, you fail to see/recognize the fact that the system is somewhat self tuning:

1) After the ball valve is set (correctly) the primary drain will never flow more than you have allowed - so it won't "suck air".

2) If the ball valve is slightly too restrictive (or becomes so due to buildup in the pipe)...the system is somewhat self correcting due to the ability to increase the head pressure on the intake and thus compensate (to a point). After so much of this auto compensation it will then be necessary to adjust the ball valve (or clean your drain). This also works in the opposite direction and is another reason that when the valve is "set" the drain won't suck air. So long as you have a sufficient variance (+/-) in the head pressure on the intake you'll be ok.


BTW, I was able to get this system to work on my tank. Its setup like this: 2 external durso-style drains with the bulkheads mounted on the top/side of my tank. I've got an internal skimmer/overflow box about 12x6x6. Inside my overflow box I've got 1 elbow for each drain (1.5" BTW). The elbow for the primary drain is pointed down, and the elbow for the backup drain is pointed up (top of that elbow is just below the bottom of the overflow teeth). I've sealed the airline from the primary drain so that a siphon is created. So long as I don't submerge the drain totally the siphon is restarted automatically. Adjustment of the primary drain is via a gate valve. Backup drain is fully open. I run about 900 gph through the primary drain. Return pump is a T4.

After I got this setup the loudest thing on my system (aside from the skimmer) is a Sequence pump running my closed loop (which is pretty quite itself).

[rdmpe]

Originally posted by javajaws
...the system is somewhat self correcting due to the ability to increase the head pressure on the intake and thus compensate (to a point)...

My Project Manager is going to be thrilled with this setup. Noise was my biggest worry. Now the skimmer will probably be the loudest part of the setup...

I kept thinking to my self, how can you keep from running your pump dry, now I see what happens. I would not have expected the system to be quite that sensitive to head pressure, but I guess it is! Very nice.

[rogert]

When this thread first started I thought this would be the answer to my noise problems, and it was...But several other critical issues popped up. After several weeks of constant adjustment I am unable to keep the water level in the overflows at a constant level and therefore changing the water level in the sump and therefor changing the water level in my skimmer because of the change in backpressure therfore making it impossible to set my skimmer correctly{I have had two overflows of my skimmer from wet skimming because the water level in my sump went up. As time went by the water level in the overflows became less predictable probably because of algae buildup or whatever. I have scrapped the idea.

[Marshall]

I think everyone should consider using gate valves if keeping it level is a real problem for people.

[javajaws]

I have some minor inconsistencies in overflow water level but I think its only because I use a filter sock on the drain. As the filter sock gets dirty it changes the back pressure slightly. Not a big problem for me because I'll only be using a filter sock for a month or two until my rock (new tank) stops shedding stuff like crazy.

I don't have skimmer problems because I have an external skimmer.

rogert, you would have better luck if you ran your skimmer in a sump compartment that had a fixed water level. Placing it in the variable level compartment (where the pump return is) will always be somewhat inconsistent (evaporation, turning return pump off, etc.).

[KAiNE]

I use this method as well. I have 2 overflows (1.5"). I get fluctualtion in the height of the water in the overflowes due to dirty filter socks and a very slight amount due to (only thing i can think of) atmospheric pressure. Take recently, we have had a substantial low come through (better known as Katrina) and my overflowes rose about 1.5"'s in height. This is just a guess to the cause I am by no means knowlegable about these things but it does make since.

I flow about 2000gph through this into a 30gal sump. I use an auto topoff. I was concered that this amount of flux would screw up my topoff system. It does flux it abit but i cant tell a difference in salinity due to it. My total water volume is about 250gal so between 1-2gal flux doesnt seem to hurt.

[Beenalongtime79]

That's a teeny tiny sump for such a large tank. How's your refugium fit into all of this?

Peace,
John H.

[Beenalongtime79]

This system is sooooo easy if you follow the rules. If you can't get it to work, then you aren't following them. I'm sorry if that is brutal, but it is that simple.

Peace,
John H.

[patsan]

Originally posted by rufio173
This system is sooooo easy if you follow the rules. If you can't get it to work, then you aren't following them. I'm sorry if that is brutal, but it is that simple.
Peace,
John H.

I agree. Mine has worked flawlessly from day one.

[KAiNE]

Yes... i know... its small! but i had to deal with the space i had at the time. I have since made the backside room into the "fish room" where the refugium (60g), skimmer and all pumps are located. I did have a smaller fuge which is why the sump is smaller. I plan on increasing sump size as some point but its working so no complaints!

BTW... if it wasnt for this method, there would be no way to eliminate micro bubbles and noise since the sump is small and the flow is high.

[KAiNE]

oops... i also miss stated my flow rate. According to a head loss calc, i flow about 2750gph. (3000gph pump)

This method works!