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Old 07/30/2006, 12:00 AM   #1
JohnL
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This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...31#post7842431


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Old 07/30/2006, 12:01 AM   #2
EnderG60
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point taken, there is just so much sitting there I really want to use some

anyway, what are you thoughts to using the output of the carbon/phosgard reactor for the RDSB?

and is the 2-4 weeks curring about right?


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Old 07/30/2006, 11:44 AM   #3
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Most of the posts that I read said 1 month for the bacteria to colonize and the results to start showing up.

This probably depends, however, on the amount of nitrates you have.

My nitrates we around 10-20 also on my 40 gallon tank. I just hooked it up a week ago, so we'll see when I start to see result, although I have been doing more-than-normal water changes, so it would be hard to tell if the bucket is helping at all.


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Old 07/30/2006, 07:12 PM   #4
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how often would you have to switch the bucket out,

why is this necessary?


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Old 07/31/2006, 07:46 PM   #5
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Phosphate will bind to the sand, eventually the sand will no longer be able to bind phosphate and it will begin to build up. I would think that simply removing the top half would be adequate as it would leave a good protion of the denitrifying bacteria in tack while providing fresh substrate for nitrifying bacteria on more phosphate binding. A phosphate reactor would help prolong the usefulness of the sand.


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Old 07/31/2006, 08:27 PM   #6
ggenz
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would the phosphate build up in a tank without a "DSB in a Bucket" anyway?

the phosphates wouldn't reduce the DSB's ability to reduce nitrates would it?


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Old 07/31/2006, 09:06 PM   #7
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It could, it is often a reason that people will add sand to begin with. It is why people use phosphate reactors in BB systems. I'm not sure about its effects on denitryfication. If your levels of phosphate were high enough to effect this process than you would already be in deep trouble This is why the bucket idea is so nice, it is very simple to just replace the bucket with a new one with new sand, all new substrate for phosphate to bind to.


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Old 07/31/2006, 10:09 PM   #8
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In any moderate system I would expect the bucket to last many years before needing any maintenance. As mentioned, the nice part is the ability to take the bucket off line in the event of problems.


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Old 08/01/2006, 09:30 PM   #9
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I'm thinking of setting up a DSB bucket, but have a question regarding bulkhead selection. I noticed someone mentioned using Uniseal bulkheads. I'm wondering if these are as effective as traditional threaded bulkheads?
Also, 3/4" seems to be the most popular diameter bulkhead for this application. Is this correct?

Thanks


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Old 08/02/2006, 08:40 AM   #10
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Traditional bulkheads do not work well on curved surfaces, that is wear uniseal excel.


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Old 08/02/2006, 11:02 AM   #11
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I will respectfully disagree with Bean....

Buckets are thin and the plastic easily deforms (flattens) to form a tight seal with a bulkhead fitting. the amount it deforms is small... my bulkheads haven't leaked on mine.

Uniseals need a pretty round hole to seal in--I've never had to cut one out so don't know how dificult it might be and if there are issues with it sealing due to lack of roundness-- this being said I'm not saying you shouldn't use a uniseal-- my point is that a regular bulkhead works fine.

For size I used a 3/4" going in and a 1" coming out-- supplied by a maxijet 1200...


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Old 08/02/2006, 05:28 PM   #12
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Spuds, the uniseals are designed to fit curved surfaces... The pliable rubber expands to fill the hole when the pipe is pushed through it. They work on very small radius pipes as well as flat surfaces....thats is what they are for


Of course if you can get hte bucket to deform then a bulkhead would work... that certainly does not make what I said incorrect. Traditional bulkheads don't work well on curved surfaces.


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Old 08/02/2006, 06:18 PM   #13
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This has nothing to do with this thread BUT
I just came across this thread, Have any of you ever tried the sugar/vodka method. The way this works is almost like the DSB bucket but a lot easier. When you add sugar or vodka ( They both do the same thing) to your tank it feeds anerobic bacteria. They eat the sugar , then the sugar is gone, so now theres a million bacteria in the tank with nothing to eat. So they eat your nitrates, at the same time your skimmer skims out these bacteria that have nitrates. Therefor lowering your nitrates I have a red sea test kit and my nitrates were off the chart. I'm guessing at least 60-80ppm, the test kit didn't go up that high. So I decided to add a little sugar since water changes were useless. In 2 weeks my nitrates were down to 0 ppm and have stayed there ever since. I did not do a water change in the sugar period and haven't done one in a loooong time. Now in my 92G tank I have a few damsels, 2 clowns, pajama cardinal, and two medium size tangs, I have never had a nitrate problem since. I have started manyt threads on this and steered many people in the right direction. Also I do not know one person that has lost any livestock including corals doing this. If any people are interested let me know, I'm here to help


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Old 08/02/2006, 07:57 PM   #14
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fishy... you are correct, that is for another thread and has no place here. I don't want to see this thread get hijacked with the whole vodka algea bloom arguement... .So please kindly start another thread and refrain from using this one to further your cause. If I remember correctly, this is not the first time you have somehwat hijacked a thread with this information, aplogized in advance and then continued....

There are plenty of vodka threads here and I am sure if there is interest you could start a new one. In this case we are talking about remote DSBs contructed in buckets to handle nitrates and other issues.

Thanks


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Old 08/03/2006, 06:18 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Traditional bulkheads don't work well on curved surfaces.
They worked perfectly fine on my round bucket-- they sealed and have never leaked a drop--- I can't ask for anything else out of my bulkheads...


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Last edited by Spuds725; 08/03/2006 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 08/03/2006, 06:55 AM   #16
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Spuds, shall I repeat myself again? You seem to want to convince me of something I already know.

I said "Of course if you can get hte bucket to deform then a bulkhead would work... that certainly does not make what I said incorrect. Traditional bulkheads don't work well on curved surfaces."

Just because you got your bucket to "deform" and become flat does not mean that bulkheads work on curved surfaces (which you are infering by repeating your statement). You also seemed to have a problem with the concept of a uniseal and how they work (they don't need a "round" hole")

So for the sake of helping people instead of giving them partial information:

TRADITIONAL BULKHEADS DO NOT WORK WELL ON CURVED SURFACES. UNISEALS WORK VERY WELL ON CURVED SURFACES.

I am not sure how much clearer it could be. Once again, you tightened a bulkhead down and deformed the bucket so that it has a flat area. The bulkhead then sealed. I am glad you have no leaks... but that certainly does not discount anything I have said, nor does it make traditional bulkheads suitable for curved surfaces.


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Old 08/03/2006, 09:40 AM   #17
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BeanAnimal, are you implying that Spuds used some type of "NONTRADITIONAL" Bullkhead on his curved surface ?

You might want to try stating that "traditional bulkheads don't work well on RIGID, SMALL RADII, curved surfaces.

You may also want to take a look at relative cost and availability for this particular application.

Happy Reef Keeping ! > Barry


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Old 08/03/2006, 09:56 AM   #18
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Beananimal,

Tell me more about the uniseal. I may need to add some plumbing to my rubbermaid stock tank and I am running out of relatively flat surfaces.

It sounds like this would allow me to make a penetration on one of the curved sides which would be an ideal area for what I am trying to do.

Where do I get them. Online vendors etc.

Sorry for hijacking the tread.


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Old 08/03/2006, 12:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by barryhc

You may also want to take a look at relative cost and availability for this particular application.
Uniseals are typically cheaper than bulkheads anyway and easier to install. they may not be available at your local hardware store, but then again i haven't been able to find regular bulkheads locally either (though i haven't looked very hard).

If you're buying online, bulkheads and uniseals are equally attainable.

www.savko.com has uniseals
4.61 for a 2" uniseal compared to $15-$30 for a traditional bulkhead.


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Old 08/04/2006, 12:30 AM   #20
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I've been running this remote deep sand bed for about 2 months, and i notice that a great proportion of the top sand turns into greyish dark colour. Originally the sand was white. However, the bottom part of the sand remain white. I was able to see this because i put the sand on a square aquarium and locate it beside my sump. Is this discoloration because the phosphate binding thing? Hopefully someone in this thread could help me.

Thanks,

Kelvin


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Old 08/04/2006, 06:05 AM   #21
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Update, i tried to grab a handful of the sand and it smell awful. Its like something has decompose in the sand. Would it be the bacteria which died or is it the hydrogen sulfide? Help pleaseee.


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Old 08/04/2006, 06:31 AM   #22
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First let me thank Calfo and all the other very patient and passionate contributors to this thread. After 3 meals, half a dozen Advil, and a page and a half of notes I'm through all 40 pages of postings.

Thus I am going forward with RDSB's on two ~200 gallon FOWLR BB systems. No corals, few to no inverts, just fish.... In addition to skimmers, bioballs, and 100 micron socks I want to do the RDSB's but am working on the volume of sand needed.

Of course I recall Mr. Calfo's data on a 2000 gallon system doing great on a 55 gallon tank RDSB. However we don't know what kind of bioload or what other filtration was involved so there comes the dilema.

See my signature for bioload, currently I'm keeping nitrates down via water changes but its getting expensive (that or I need to buy stock in Instand Ocean). For predator/FOWLR bioloads what would be a solid/safe amount of RDSB for a 200 gallon system? I'm thinking around 30 gallons? If a 50-75 gallon system of reef/semi reef bioload does well with a 5 gallon IO bucket then we are talking 20 gallons of a 200 gallon system at the same proportional bioload. Since FOWLR bioload is considerably higher (yeah, the puffer poos ALOT) even with conservative feeding it seems 30-40 gallons of RDSB would be needed to really take out the nitrates per 200 gallon system. Thoughts?

Obviously, aragonite is preferred, if I can FIND a non LFS/aquatic source I'd be elated but locally so far its a no go at Lowe's, Home Depot, Pike's Nursery, Ace Hardware, etc. I've got silica sand coming out my eyeballs but no aragonite short of LFS channels. I've read the last 40 pages so I know its doable with silica, but I'd rather do the project to an ideal then go half buggered. LFS/internet pricing makes budget nearly impossible at $22 per 30 lbs for carib/aragamax/etc.

Filtration flow is as follows: overflows (2x) dump through two 100 micron socks (changed/washed daily) into the sump. Protein skimmer does its thing...don't want to mess up its mojo. Return pump(s) in sump at approx 18-20 hourly turnover. 1 powerhead to run a small bit of bioballs as an emergency nitrite/ammonia eliminator. Finally a powerhead that runs the RDSB which sits next to the tank. One tank is 2 years up/stable the other is new.

RDSB = Rubbermaid bin with 1/2" wide zip ties for reinforcement (just to be safe). A piece of plywood with a tablecloth to cover the thing so resident girlfriend doesn't hate it. Set fishy supplies on makeshift tablestand. Enjoy not having to change 50% water monthly....

Thoughts?


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Old 08/04/2006, 07:10 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by upin
I've been running this remote deep sand bed for about 2 months, and i notice that a great proportion of the top sand turns into greyish dark colour. Originally the sand was white. However, the bottom part of the sand remain white. I was able to see this because i put the sand on a square aquarium and locate it beside my sump. Is this discoloration because the phosphate binding thing? Hopefully someone in this thread could help me.

Thanks,

Kelvin
Kelvin, are you blocking all light to the RDSB?
You need to do this to prevent any algae from growing in it.
Also, you need to make sure the flow going through the container is fast enough to prevent detritus from settling on the sand and breaking down.
Sounds like you might have both issues.


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Old 08/04/2006, 08:22 AM   #24
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LRS078,

I have just set one up that closly matches your discription. It is a 18gallon rubbermaid, with 130lbs of standard yellow playsand and a 1/4" layer of CC on top to limit sandstorms and to provide some buffering, on my 210 reef /100 gal sump. I used a 3/4" bulkhead in and a 1" out with a ball valve to control the flow from a rio 1700 pump. I currently am just using the lid as my upper support but the idea of zip ties sonds like a better idea.

Mines been up for just over two weeks now and this weekend I'll be checking levels to get an idea if it's starting to help. I think from my reading that it will be a month before real results start to show. Once I do start to see the results I will also be adding one to our 180 FO that tends to have a bit higher tollerance but it will still be good to get it under control.

-Glen


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Old 08/04/2006, 08:55 AM   #25
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Hey all,

Just wanted to voice my experience using the remote deep sand bed.
My 125gal tank is lightly stocked 7 fish (well fed) with maybe 10 soft corals. Theres maybe 30 pounds of live rock ( seed rock) the rest is home made stuff, even though you really can't tell now as it's pretty much encrusted with coraline algae. I took care of phosphates with phosbane, even though they never went beyond 1 PPM now it's 0 testing with Salferts test kit. But my nitrates were in the 25 ppm range and was doing water changes to try and reduce this level, but with the feeding I was hovering in that range for a month and even cutting down on feeding really never managed the nitrates very well.

I figured I would give the bucket idea a shot. I had an old external pond filter that uses a spray bar to feed water into it and thought this is perfect item for my application. The dimensions of the filter are 20L X 16W X 14H this gave me 320 sq in. of surface area which is a bit more than my best bucket at 15X15. I had a small fountain pump that gives me 160 Gal at 2 foot of head which I run wide open. Anyways to make a long story short within 2 weeks my nitrates have dropped from 20-25 ppm to 5 ppm tested this morning
. Not to bad considering the time period.

The sand I used is aragonite Carib Sea sea floor special grade around 50LB. and filled the filter to about 1.5 inch of the inlet. I placed an elbow on the bulkhead for draining (inside of filter ) so I could adjust the level of the water. so it flows at the level of the inlet 1.5 in. Basically there's 1.5in of water over the sand bed being fed by the spray bar on the width (16 in.) at a nice even flow over the length. The sand depth is around 12 or so in. So far I'm very pleased and will let you know when I hit 0.

LRS078 "Of course I recall Mr. Calfo's data on a 2000 gallon system doing great on a 55 gallon tank RDSB. However we don't know what kind of bioload or what other filtration was involved so there comes the dilema."

It was is a store system and I assume a good bio load if I recall properly.

Not to hijack this thread but.

Just a personal comment. I know this hobby can become expensive and DIY cuts down on some of the cost. But please remember that your LFS needs to make some money. Livestock is not a huge money maker in general and requires a lot of time and expense. From personal experience I have seen many people ask for recommendations and advice on setting up there tanks just to turn around and make their purchase elsewhere to save a couple of bucks. Mail order, Big Box stores etc. don't support your hobby, all they do is is price and sell. If your fair with the LFS store when it comes to purchasing your dry goods, I'm sure the owner or managers will be more than happy to work with you to make it a bit more affordable. Remember a good LFS works hard to make money and have a lot of expense's to cover to stay in operation. If they continue to get cut out of the loop for a few bucks, your only hurting yourself.

If a moderator feels this part of my post is out of line I won't be insulted if it's erased.

Best regards


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