Maturity Issues

[GTR]

John,

I think your situation is common and without any answers which will improve both your tank and the other family members opinions.

I have to keep some fish in my reef which I would prefer to omit. With all the time and community property I spend on this I feel I must compromise.

If you introduce the carnivores or herbivores you know what they'll eat so you just have to decide which you want to put at risk.

Steve U

[EricHugo]

I think a 50 gallon tank is kind of small for most if not all surgenfishes, but herbivorous blennies are a good choice.

[fd235158]

Eric, you said that corals would be helpful if they're the one's that would be tolerant of tank conditions. What kinds of corals are you refering to.

[EricHugo]

That would depend on the tank.

[obarrera]

Originally posted by EricHugo
That would depend on the tank.

Which will be helpful in a 10 gallon tank?
Also a 40 gallon tank?

[gruiz1122]

All I can say is WOW! This thread has become the most informative I have seen on RC in regards to the evolution of our captive systems. I truly wish I would have had access to this info when I started with my system. I would also like to know what type of corals would be the appropriate "first corals" to go into our tanks. Thank you again Mr. Borneman for all the info!!!!

[gruiz1122]

All I can say is WOW! This thread has become the most informative I have seen on RC in regards to the evolution of our captive systems. I truly wish I would have had access to this info when I started with my system. I would also like to know what type of corals would be the appropriate "first corals" to go into our tanks. Thank you again Mr. Borneman for all the info!!!!

[gruiz1122]

All I can say is WOW! This thread has become the most informative I have seen on RC in regards to the evolution of our captive systems. I truly wish I would have had access to this info when I started with my system. I would also like to know what type of corals would be the appropriate "first corals" to go into our tanks. Thank you again Mr. Borneman for all the info!!!!

[obarrera]

Hahaha why did you post three times?

[gruiz1122]

Woops! It said that the connection timed out! Sorry 'bout that...

[skylsdale]

I would also like to know what type of corals would be the appropriate "first corals" to go into our tanks.

He already said that it depends on the individual tank.

Which will be helpful in a 10 gallon tank?
Also a 40 gallon tank?

Size is far from the only condition in something like this.

[shellnut]

Thanks so much for all the info! I started researching this website after two of my fish died, in a new tank (about a month old), and am now beginning to understand it a bit more. Will still have plenty of questions but am bookmarking this page to come back and re-read. Thanks, again!
Shelly

[july865]

that was AWSUM eric. thank you.

[Semara]

Eric, you said that corals would be helpful if they're the one's that would be tolerant of tank conditions. What kinds of corals are you refering to.

Don't mean to resurect a dead post, but this thread has been really helpful. If you have the time to answer, i'd appreciate clarification of this point. Does the answer to this question have more to do with something like export of nutrients, or with outcompeting specific algae or some other organic nuisance? or both? or neither?

Also, how much does hobbiest experience and system planning (i.e. someone wanting a SPS tank v. a low-light biotope focused on corrallines and deepwater Anithias) factor into an answer?

I'm sorry if this question is too general, and it can't be answered reasonably well as is. But, I've enjoyed the curing process of my LR and the aftermath much more than I anticipated (my friends think I'm crazy when I get excited about seeing such ugly things as Amphipods crawling arond my LR), and I've really become more interested in the growth of my tank than I'd ever have thought.

Thanks.

[pelagic]

Has anyone experienced this? After getting a reef tank established for a few months, things get settled in, grow, expand, divide, look great; then six to eight months into this success, things don't expand like they did, shrink and just fade away. No crash, just a gradual atrophy.

Thanks for the ongoing discussion.

C.J. S.

[jgreen1025]

Originally posted by pelagic
Has anyone experienced this? After getting a reef tank established for a few months, things get settled in, grow, expand, divide, look great; then six to eight months into this success, things don't expand like they did, shrink and just fade away. No crash, just a gradual atrophy.
C.J. S.

Can you give some more specific information:

- What specifically is shrinking/fading away?
- What kind of animals/fish/coral do you have, and when did you add them?
- What are your tank specifics, ie. size, lighting, skimmer, sand, LR, etc.?
- How often (and how much) do you do water changes and feeding?
- Have you run any tests on the water?

[Nap]

Pelagic I have the same question. I have a system that has been set up for two years (actually a six year old system that was moved two years ago) and has been incredibly healthy until recently. Things arent expanding as they were, and one group of ricordia (I had four years) just shrivled up and wasted away. I have been doing water changes weekly (was doing monthly ones prior) as something seems to be affecting the system. Even my 6 year old hammer is not expanding as it did and my rose BTA has decided to start roaming around the tank.
I am at a loss. My test kits are old so I am going to get new ones and run a boat load of tests but I cannot figure out what is wrong.
One thing...About the same time that all of this started I also noticed the appearance of what looks like a small patch of black/green cyano. I have never seen this in my system before and as much as I try to clean it up it comes right back (although it never gets larger than a 2 inch patch). My system is a 100 gal with 30 gal sump. Lighting is 2 400w radiums and it is being skimmed by a euro reef 8-2. As far as corals go its got a little bit of everything from my basketball sized hammer to a couple acros and even the Tyree green polyp leather.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
-Ian

[Philwd]

I hate to ask but are you running a DSB?

Phil

[tomterreefic]

I think my brain just went numb. I am finally getting a better understanding of my tanks. I set up a 10 gal. LR tank about 6 months ago and am amazed at the life running around on the rock. I've put no fish in, only a few snails and hermits. Since the LR seems to be teaming with so much more life than my display tank, I swap out rocks from time to time (i.e. "intermediate disturbance". I always thought of it as kind of a re-fueling of the rock. Since I began doing this I've noticed a dramatic increase in both the growth of my existing corals and a great reduction in the death of my fish and corals. I realize this also has to do with the maturity of me and my tank. Thanks Eric for your time. I feel like I can finally see the forest despite the trees.
TOM

[gruiz1122]

I think I understand now what Eric is trying to get across. In my haste and excitement after reading this thread I foolishly thought that there was the "perfect" mix of corals that would go into our tank to provide that utopian habitat we are all striving for. I know now that that is far from feasible with the limited amount of reasources we are provided with at our LFS or even from online stores. We can only look to re-create a very small slice of the reefs that we know. To think that there is such a diversity on the reefs that if we tried to duplicate it we would fail miserably is very humbling.

One thing I think we might have to take into consideration is the fact that we might have to go "DSB-less" GASP! to be able to maintain a really nutrient poor system for those precious Acros and Montis and other "clean" water corals OR on the flip side possibly setup a "mangrove" type system with the DSB to keep our soft corals such as the 'shrooms and various other "dirty water" corallimorphs that require higher nutrient levels to survive. Reason I say all of that is because of the experiences I have seen other hobbyists go through in trying to keep a "mixed" system with both "dirty" water and "clean" water corals and the horrific results that are obtained i.e. shrooms and rics and other softies dying when a new, more powerful skimmer is introduced or that new Tunze stream shooting out 3000 gph blowing the crap outta everything. I think we need to rethink the whole DSB thing and apply it to our particular situation or habitat that we are trying to recreate, I mean I am only thinking about what I have seen and read over and over again and am only repeating the observations that I have made.

Then again I might be totally and completely off and might as well go stick this where the sun don't shine!

[jgreen1025]

Originally posted by gruiz1122
One thing I think we might have to take into consideration is the fact that we might have to go "DSB-less" GASP! to be able to maintain a really nutrient poor system for those precious Acros and Montis and other "clean" water corals OR on the flip side possibly setup a "mangrove" type system with the DSB to keep our soft corals such as the 'shrooms and various other "dirty water" corallimorphs that require higher nutrient levels to survive. Reason I say all of that is because of the experiences I have seen other hobbyists go through in trying to keep a "mixed" system with both "dirty" water and "clean" water corals and the horrific results that are obtained i.e. shrooms and rics and other softies dying when a new, more powerful skimmer is introduced...

I think I've misunderstood something. I had the impression after reading Eric's comments on skimmerless tanks that corals like Acropora and Montipora would do better in water that isn't scrubbed perfectly clean. In fact, I thought he'd called those types "pioneer" or secondary species, and that it would be better to start a new tank with them than things like mushrooms or zooanthids. I didn't realize there was a "clean/dirty water" difference. Can someone clarify this for me?

John

[obarrera]

All I wanna know is what should I start with.
Corals,fish,inverts?
I have 152 watts(T5 HO) of light on a 40g breeder,I have nothing in there right now.

I have had success with my 10g tank,but I wanna do better with my 40g.

[gruiz1122]

Jgreen, go ahead and set up a tank with a DSB, and no skimmer. Let it cycle and introduce your Acros. Wait a few years and stir up the sand bed "by mistake" i.e. a fallen powerhead or something along those lines. Stand back and watch how fast those acros RTN. There is just too much that can go wrong with a DSB. I understand that there are people that haven't had any problems with their DSB's but I just think that there is too much that can go wrong to justify the use of a DSB......

There is another thread in the Advanced topics forum (I think) that shows a diver going down to the sand in a coral reef and digging a hole. Guess what he found....NOTHING! No cyano no algae, no little nitrogen bubbles, NOTHING. Pure white sand. What I'm trying to say with this is that on the typical "reef", you wont find any nitrification, denitrification, or any other process going on within the sand. It all happens in those little interstisces in the rock and the dead coral skeletons that form the reefs. NOT in the sand that surrounds the reef. That raises the question, where does the detritus, and dead organisms and other "polluting" matter go? It goes into another organism, falls to the bottom of the benthos and gets eaten there, or it gets blown off of the reef and into the lagoonal and mangrove areas where it is processed by something else like your mushrooms and other corallimorphs which like "dirty" water. And where is the "clean" water? Back on the reef where the Acros and Montis grow.......

[jgreen1025]

Originally posted by gruiz1122
Jgreen, go ahead and set up a tank with a DSB, and no skimmer. Let it cycle and introduce your Acros. Wait a few years and stir up the sand bed "by mistake" i.e. a fallen powerhead or something along those lines. Stand back and watch how fast those acros RTN... That raises the question, where does the detritus, and dead organisms and other "polluting" matter go? It goes into another organism, falls to the bottom of the benthos and gets eaten there, or it gets blown off of the reef and into the lagoonal and mangrove areas where it is processed by something else like your mushrooms and other corallimorphs which like "dirty" water. And where is the "clean" water? Back on the reef where the Acros and Montis grow.......

Thanks for the clarification but I'm not interested in debating the DSB issue - I just misunderstood your comment. I've never seen anyone growing soft corals in "dirty" water (I assume you mean relatively murky water) and they seem to grow well enough in "clean" water. So I (wrongly) assumed that by "dirty" water you meant an unskimmed tank, as opposed to a tank with heavy skimming where the water is perfectly clean.

But just as an aside, have you read Ron Shimek's articles regarding how the sandbed should be set up? You said the detritus "goes into another organism, falls to the bottom... and gets eaten there." According to Dr. Ron, a healthy sandbed should contain lots of little worms, bacteria, and other organisms that will do exactly what you said. Obviously, you still don't want to stir your sandbed (accidentally or otherwise), but since we don't have the luxury in our relatively small tanks of the large volumes of water that naturally wash over coral reefs to dillute the pollutions, it seems like a sandbed capable of processing the detritus is the next best option. (But I've probably misunderstood your comments again!).

John

[gruiz1122]

Problem with that theory is that all those litter critters produce poop of their own! Which in turn gets sucked into some magical wormhole that shoots it out into the galaxy never to be seen again! (pardon the sarcasm )