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Unread 03/28/2008, 06:41 PM   #251
Tswifty
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Quote:
Originally posted by H20ENG
Twisty,
Nice plumbing there. I see one thing that could cause catastrophic failure- NO plumbing support. All that plumbing hanging by a bulkhead has the leverage of a crowbar. If you simply bump it, it'll blow the back out of the tank.

Please dont take offense, I see this all the time and am just trying to help avoid a failure.

I like these clamps a lot for strut:

These 2 hole clamps are cheap but effective if you have something solid to mount against. Found in the electrical aisle.:
I went out and purchased something similiar to your first picture... If you could take a look, and let me know your thoughts, I would appreciate it.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&pagenumber=10


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Unread 03/28/2008, 07:35 PM   #252
Kim G in Ks
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It is good that this idea gets recycled every few years for the new people on the boards. I've been out of the hobby for over three years and am contemplating hopping back in. I have been trying to catch up on all the new and improved ideas and ran across this thread and thought, hey, I'd been doing that for many years. Some things can't be improved on I guess. Nice thread,

Kim


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Unread 03/28/2008, 08:03 PM   #253
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1" or 1.5" drains for this method?

I've read this thread with great interest (ok, maybe I missed something but I tried!), as I am designing a custom about 90 gallon 30x25x25 or so reef tank. I am trying to fit 4 bulkheads (3 drains, 1 return) in as small a footprint as possible (3 sides viewable, trying to keep flat to the back center)

My question for people experienced in this field. If starting from scratch and I can choose my bulkhead size.... 1" or 1.5" for the 3 drains? Seems like the one in siphon mode can handle a lot, but if it has a problem, I need the other ones to be able to keep up. No, I don't have a pump chosen, but it seems like people recommend 500-1000 gph into the sump? (plus powerheads/closed loop/whatever also)

Using 1" instead of 1.5" drains (and only 3/4" for the return) would let my overflow box be smaller. But not if it limits my flow too much for a 90g.

Also, if these pipes are coming straight up, don't I only need room in my overflow box for durso-style elbows on 1 of them? The one with the small air hose coming out? Can't the "siphon" one and the emergency drain one just be open vertical pipes of appropriate heights below and above the waterline?


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Unread 03/28/2008, 10:10 PM   #254
GuySmilie
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Re: 1" or 1.5" drains for this method?

Quote:
Originally posted by brentj
I've read this thread with great interest (ok, maybe I missed something but I tried!), as I am designing a custom about 90 gallon 30x25x25 or so reef tank. I am trying to fit 4 bulkheads (3 drains, 1 return) in as small a footprint as possible (3 sides viewable, trying to keep flat to the back center)

My question for people experienced in this field. If starting from scratch and I can choose my bulkhead size.... 1" or 1.5" for the 3 drains? Seems like the one in siphon mode can handle a lot, but if it has a problem, I need the other ones to be able to keep up. No, I don't have a pump chosen, but it seems like people recommend 500-1000 gph into the sump? (plus powerheads/closed loop/whatever also)

Using 1" instead of 1.5" drains (and only 3/4" for the return) would let my overflow box be smaller. But not if it limits my flow too much for a 90g.

Also, if these pipes are coming straight up, don't I only need room in my overflow box for durso-style elbows on 1 of them? The one with the small air hose coming out? Can't the "siphon" one and the emergency drain one just be open vertical pipes of appropriate heights below and above the waterline?
I used 1" bulkheads on this 58g build and now wish I'd have gone with 1-1/2".
So go bigger than you think you need because you can always reduce the pipe sizes.
















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Unread 03/28/2008, 11:24 PM   #255
jnarowe
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OMG, you routed the glass yourself? That is truly inspiring.


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Unread 03/29/2008, 07:30 AM   #256
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No, in my case it was just cheaper to have a local glass shop route it.
But it's not that difficult with the right bit and a simple guide for the router. Although I would never recommend it, I've seen guys do this freehand with a Dremel. Now that's inspiration.....(or stupidity).


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Unread 03/29/2008, 08:00 AM   #257
BeanAnimal
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If you go with the standpipe setup as described in this thread (and on my web page) you can easily use 1" bulkheads for 500-1000 GPH. It would certainly not hurt to step up to 1.5" bulkheads.

I would not recoemend an open top standpipe for the siphon. It will be prone to creating a vortex and sucking in air. That said, if you design the open channel standpipe to be several inches above the siphon standpipe, it will work.


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Unread 03/29/2008, 11:05 AM   #258
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Re: Re: 1" or 1.5" drains for this method?

Quote:
Originally posted by GuySmilie
i just wanted to ask a question about the structural integrity of the overflow: i notice that your flexible drain pipes aren't supported, and that your unions/valves don't appear to be supported either. if that's the case, is the weight of the water + plumbing hanging from the overflow box? my concern is that this would place a lot of stress on the overflox box seams.

thanks.


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Unread 03/29/2008, 11:23 AM   #259
jnarowe
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AND WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE VALVES?


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Unread 03/29/2008, 09:10 PM   #260
GuySmilie
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Quote:
Originally posted by jnarowe
AND WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE VALVES?
Local Rural King Farm Store


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Last edited by GuySmilie; 03/29/2008 at 09:16 PM.
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Unread 03/29/2008, 09:12 PM   #261
GuySmilie
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Re: Re: Re: 1" or 1.5" drains for this method?

Quote:
Originally posted by pescadero
i just wanted to ask a question about the structural integrity of the overflow: i notice that your flexible drain pipes aren't supported, and that your unions/valves don't appear to be supported either. if that's the case, is the weight of the water + plumbing hanging from the overflow box? my concern is that this would place a lot of stress on the overflox box seams.
thanks.
No support required in this particular instance.
Total weight of the (full of water) overflow system is <40lbs, hardware and all. The rubber/vinyl hoses are so short, vertical, flexible, and lightweight, that they cause minimal lateral stress on those beefy Sch. 80 bulkheads; which themselves are mounted to 3/8" glass. The three vertical panes of glass are 1/4".

As for stress, you could stand on that overflow and the glass would break before those seams would fail.
Here's the original build specs, for anyone interested. Graphic is too big for RC's forum format.
(Sorry Bean, don't mean to hijack but I always get PMs for this)


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Last edited by GuySmilie; 03/29/2008 at 09:18 PM.
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Unread 03/29/2008, 10:25 PM   #262
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great valve supply. very nice stuff.


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Unread 03/31/2008, 04:03 AM   #263
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bump


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Unread 03/31/2008, 11:20 AM   #264
seawandrr
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Question...

I totally get how this works for overflow to sump... but I'm assuming that trying to feed a skimmer from the siphon line either wouldn't work well with this method, or at all, or at all?

Just bringing to clarity my tank build plans... funny how you get closer and start merging ideas you've collected together, how you have to check interference...

A few months ago:

1. Investigate and plan to use Herbie/Bean method
2. Overflow feed skimmer to reduce pump count and skim dirtiest water

Now Putting the two of them together results in the above question.

Figure 600gph through the skimmer, with a total of 1,800 GPH through the overflows (it's a 400g tank)

Could one run 2 siphon lines, the first throttled down to the skimmer GPH? the second siphon to the sump used to control the level/flow through the open standpipe?


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Unread 03/31/2008, 11:25 AM   #265
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Yes, you could run two siphons


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Unread 03/31/2008, 11:31 AM   #266
jnarowe
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but can you create a siphon in a skimmer?


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Unread 03/31/2008, 12:17 PM   #267
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The siphon could be used to feed the skimmer, the only problem may be keeping the flow from the siphon consistent. The flow rate of the siphon will be dependent on the total head of the system. As the water level of the skimmer fluctuates, so will the volume of the siphon and of course vice-versa.

I have considered trying to feed the skimmer this way, but have yet to get around to actually doing so.


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Unread 03/31/2008, 12:36 PM   #268
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I am just curious because as you know I gravity feed my skimmer, but I am suspicious that the open style of a skimmer and air injection might not allow a true siphon.


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Unread 03/31/2008, 01:15 PM   #269
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The siphon will form as long as there is there is a difference in the level between the two bodies of water AND the feed side does not allow air to be introduced.


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Unread 03/31/2008, 01:20 PM   #270
jnarowe
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OK, so in my case with open feed I am just feed by gravity and not creating a syphon. That's a good thing in my system!


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Unread 03/31/2008, 05:43 PM   #271
GuySmilie
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Quote:
Originally posted by seawandrr
.....Could one run 2 siphon lines, the first throttled down to the skimmer GPH? the second siphon to the sump used to control the level/flow through the open standpipe?
Don't see why not. Just add an additional and slightly oversized dedicated drain in your overflow just to feed the skimmer. Install a valve on it between the overflow box and skimmer to act as a governor or regulator (your skimmer input may already have this valve). In this way you would never allow the skimmer to 'get ahead' of the overflow's capacity.


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Unread 03/31/2008, 07:38 PM   #272
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Plumb a new Tank

Bean, I got my new tank sat. I have a plan to let me use your 3 pipe silent siphon method which I am determined to try and use. Let see now, I have four holes drilled for 1" bh in the back, two on each side to use for closed loop and I'll drill two more close to the center mid level along with one for a 1.5" bh for the cl intake, I'm thinking of Ocean Motion. Then for the overflow skimmer box if I make it acrylic and in two halves one just a plate to attach to the back, the other half can make the box complete and be silicone to the back. That will allow me to drill the back for 4 1" bh and use the bh along with a little silicon to secure the inside skimmer box and the outside overflow box(acrylic also) to the tank while at the same time passing the water from skimmer to hang on the back box where the 3 siphon drain pipes will be. You'll remember one of my goals is to have as small of a inside box as possible, maybe 1.5" deep x 5" x 20". Ok, what's not good?


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Unread 03/31/2008, 08:18 PM   #273
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Silicon does not adhere well to acrylic. If the tank is glass, have glass cut to size to make the box. If the tank is acrylic, use weld-on (#4 I believe) to cement the boxes to the tank.


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Unread 03/31/2008, 08:48 PM   #274
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Thanks, I understand about the glass/acrylic silicone thing. The seal would be the rubber gaskets that come with the bh with an extra one between the outside overflow and the glass wall of tank. Just thulght of useing some silicone between the box and tank for adding some value of solid support, suction adhesion?


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Unread 03/31/2008, 09:03 PM   #275
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I guess I misunderstood what you're planning to do. When you started talking about 2 halves I assumed you were planning an external overflow box. But after rereading it, it sounds like you're planning 2 internal overflow boxes. Which isn't necessary, but is that what you mean by "skimmer box"?

If you are planning to silicon acrylic to the outside a glass tank, that's asking for trouble. It's not that it doesn't seal well, it's that silicon does not adhere well enough to acrylic to support any weight. You're much better off buying $10 of pre-cut glass sheets.


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