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Unread 11/30/2014, 05:37 PM   #7551
chogendoorn
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I'm working on finishing my tank now, I have implemented this system because the idea sounded very good to be. I am having one problem, I cannot get my middle standpipe to run full siphon unless I close the open channel standpipe almost all the way, which makes that open channel standpipe almost useless. If I try starting the system up with both wide open, the open channel handles almost all of the flow first (and I can't figure out why), resulting in a very noisy air and water mix. The hole for my middle (siphon) standpipe is 1/4 inch lower than the other 2 standpipes, and the middle standpipe empties into the sump a little lower than the open channel standpipe. Might that be my problem? Does anyone have any thoughts?


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Unread 11/30/2014, 07:28 PM   #7552
chogendoorn
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Just answered my own question...I cut the full siphon standpipe so that it is the highest in the sump, and now it works. Amazing.


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Unread 11/30/2014, 08:27 PM   #7553
sleepydoc
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The depth that the pipes terminate in the sump makes a difference, as you have found.

Also, There is no need to have a valve on either secondary standpipes. The only one that needs the valve is the full siphon. If did put valves on the other two, leave them wide open.


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Unread 12/02/2014, 01:14 PM   #7554
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Videos?

Hi

I am getting ready to try to build this system into my 125g tank. I would like to see one in operation and I've been looking online for videos, but it seems like with what I've found people call pretty much any 3 pipe drain system a Beananimal. I've not found any yet that fit the design used in this thread.

Can anyone recommend or point me to some vids that show implementation as it was designed?

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Michael


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125g DT, Jebao DC9000, BA drain, 55g sump, Mixing: 2x32g Brutes, Panworld 30PX, 20l QT, RLSS R6I skimmer, 3 x Kessil A360WE, Neptune Apex.

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Unread 12/02/2014, 01:49 PM   #7555
Thunderfan
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I am in the process of setting this up on my 75g. I have no holes so have to drill them. Since I am drilling anyway I thought I would go ahead and do 1-1/2" the way I read beans original description is he used 1"because that's what size his hole where already. Now here comes the questions that have probably been asked before many times I just haven't ran across them. If I am using 1-1/2" bulkheads and 90s just like the original design. How far down from the top of the tank do I need to drill my holes? I am going to put a box on the inside. Does that box determine my water level in the display?

Thanks for any help.


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Unread 12/02/2014, 08:53 PM   #7556
sleepydoc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderfan View Post
I am in the process of setting this up on my 75g. I have no holes so have to drill them. Since I am drilling anyway I thought I would go ahead and do 1-1/2" the way I read beans original description is he used 1"because that's what size his hole where already. Now here comes the questions that have probably been asked before many times I just haven't ran across them. If I am using 1-1/2" bulkheads and 90s just like the original design. How far down from the top of the tank do I need to drill my holes? I am going to put a box on the inside. Does that box determine my water level in the display?

Thanks for any help.
1.5" bulkheads are way overkill for a 75 gallon tank; 1" would be just fine.

See this thread for clearances
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...15&postcount=7


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Unread 12/02/2014, 09:25 PM   #7557
uncleof6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderfan View Post
I am in the process of setting this up on my 75g. I have no holes so have to drill them. Since I am drilling anyway I thought I would go ahead and do 1-1/2" the way I read beans original description is he used 1"because that's what size his hole where already. Now here comes the questions that have probably been asked before many times I just haven't ran across them. If I am using 1-1/2" bulkheads and 90s just like the original design. How far down from the top of the tank do I need to drill my holes? I am going to put a box on the inside. Does that box determine my water level in the display?

Thanks for any help.
Before delving into hole placement, let's look at your flow requirements, and the possible/probable consequences of using 1.5" bulkheads, on a system that will be running under 750 gph. A 1.5" bulkhead will flow low to mid 3000s gph, with a drop of 24" accounting for friction losses. The same "drop" with a 1" bulkhead, will flow around 1500 gph with 1.5" pipe, (as in the original design) double what I would consider reasonable for a 75gallon tank. Most drops will be a bit longer, (higher flow capacity,) but I think you get the idea. The question this raises is why bother with such large bulkheads, when they are simply overkill, and there have been starting issues reported in system running large bulkheads with "low" flow rates... ...bulkhead/pipe size is somewhat of a subjective topic, in that some figure there is no reason to use a pipe size larger than the bulkhead size, though there are parameters that make it rather objective, such as flow rate, length of the drop, friction loss etc., as well as keeping the open channel easy to maintain silence. Since 1" bulkheads, with 1.5" pipe (original design) has such a very wide operating range, I can't see a reason to use 1.5" bulkheads, unless you are targeting 2000 gph +, but I do see reasons not too.

Hole placement (yes you are right it has been covered a thousand times) is pretty objective. The minimum distance is one hole diameter from the edges of the glass, and each other, to the edge of the hole. Allowing for the weir is a bit trickier, and you need plumbing in hand to figure out how much to adjust the holes down, if needed, to get the water level in the "main" area where it needs to be (top of the weir) with around a 1" drop into the overflow (water level.) The water level will end up in the upper half of the downturned elbows, depending on the running adjustment. There is not a formula for it, it is old fashioned tape measure. (I did almost micrometer measurements for 1" and the distance is 2 7/8" down from the bottom lip of the trim inside the the tank, (2 3/4" - 3 1/4",) to hole center. (with 1" elbows; 1.25" elbows will be different.) How critical is it? You have to be at least 1 hole diameter down, you have to clear the trim on the outside of the tank (bulkhead nut) and then the rest is how long is the water fall going to be.


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Unread 12/02/2014, 10:05 PM   #7558
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I am all for using all 1" everything is cheaper and easier to plumb. If the experts say that is plenty big enough that's what I'll do. This is my first system and I want it to be as trouble free in operation as I can. It sounds like the concensus is 1" to achieve that. So the measurement it looks like I need is 2-7/8" from bottom of trim to the center of my hole. I can pick up bulkheads and pipe fittings locally so I will set up with that measurement and see what it looks like.


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Unread 12/02/2014, 10:10 PM   #7559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderfan View Post
I am all for using all 1" everything is cheaper and easier to plumb. If the experts say that is plenty big enough that's what I'll do. This is my first system and I want it to be as trouble free in operation as I can. It sounds like the concensus is 1" to achieve that. So the measurement it looks like I need is 2-7/8" from bottom of trim to the center of my hole. I can pick up bulkheads and pipe fittings locally so I will set up with that measurement and see what it looks like.
Read what I wrote very carefully. 2 7/8" from the bottom of the trim is going to put them way too low. Do use 1.5" pipe external to the tank. 1.25 street ell is fine for inside the bulkheads.


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Unread 12/03/2014, 12:26 AM   #7560
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Clear as mud, thanks.


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Unread 12/03/2014, 10:39 PM   #7561
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Well I finally got my new tank up and running and am "beaning" it. Very cool. Amazingly quiet after the syphon burps out its air. It is almost there but I see re-reading some issues and details what I must need to look at to get the overflow system working just right.

First, the syphon works fine as long as I have the gate valve on the syphon (only standpipe with valve) closed enough to raise the water within the overflow but not so high as to allow the open channel to take too much of the water. If I do, it seems that the open channel wins and the syphon doesn't drain the overflow. I think from my most recent reading that this is due to the distance the return pipes are submerged and in particular if the syphon is lower in the sump then the open channel, the open channel is the "path of least resistance" and so it drains the water and not the syphon pipe. So, I will either shorten the return distance for the syphon a touch or lower the return for the open one such that it is as low or perhaps lower than the syphon within the sump.

Lastly the RO line from the open channel needs to be adjusted and I believe from what I have read here that it should end where the emergency channel upturned elbow terminates so that when that emergency standpipe kicks in to save the day, the open channel becomes a syphon and helps to get the water level back down in the overflow box.

Please confirm/adivise/reprimand.

Thanks!


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Unread 12/04/2014, 05:26 AM   #7562
pdiehm
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My understanding is the airline should be ABOVE the Emergency. At startup the emergency should kick in.

I've read the whole thread...don't understand 95% of it, don't remember another 3% of it.


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Unread 12/04/2014, 07:02 AM   #7563
hbash
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Quote:
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My understanding is the airline should be ABOVE the Emergency. At startup the emergency should kick in.

I've read the whole thread...don't understand 95% of it, don't remember another 3% of it.
How far above the emergency? Just above or 1/4" or 1/2" or ...


Thanks.


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Unread 12/04/2014, 07:10 AM   #7564
Mrramsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbash View Post
How far above the emergency? Just above or 1/4" or 1/2" or ...


Thanks.
Mine is just about 1/4". Not critical just lower than the flood point.
Also the drain lines to the sump should be no more than a half an inch below the water surface.


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Unread 12/04/2014, 08:44 AM   #7565
sleepydoc
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You're talking about the ¼" tubing going into the open channel standpipe, correct? Think about how the system is set up and the backup/safety systems:
  • The full siphon standpipe handles majority of the flow
  • The open channel functions as a durso, handling the flow that the full siphon can't. The air intake allows it to handle a fairly wide range of flows before making noise, making the system easy to adjust.
    If the air intake to the open channel standpipe becomes occluded, it no longer functions as a durso and the lack of an air intake forces it into full siphon mode. This dramatically increases the capacity and drops the water level in short order. It also starts 'flushing,' giving an audible warning that something is amiss.
  • The dry standpipe is a failsafe backup if the first two fail or are unable to handle the flow.

He doesn't specifically state the height of the airline tubing in his description, but he does describe the dry channel kicking in first, then the tubing becoming occluded if the dry channel is unable to handle the flow.

I would argue that it should be the reverse. One of the benefits of the dry channel is that it is just that - dry. If there is no water in it, there is virtually no opportunity for it to become occluded. If you have the dry standpipe kick in before the airline occludes, it is conceivable that when the dry standpipe becomes occluded enough to raise the water level and occlude it, the open channel stand pipe will also have enough of a blockage to cause an issue.

If you configure it in the reverse, so that the opening of the tubing is just below dry standpipe opening, it will occlude and start flushing the open channel pipe first, and the dry standpipe would kick in only if that was unable to handle the flow.

The chances of the above situation happening are admittedly quite remote, but it strikes me as an easy way to maximize the safety of the system.


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Unread 12/04/2014, 09:30 AM   #7566
goncharkina
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I have been using Aqueon Proflex sump, it is very quiet and have so many options for bubble diffusing, the only problem I had was my skimmer not fitting well in the last chamber


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Unread 12/04/2014, 03:11 PM   #7567
Mrramsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goncharkina View Post
I have been using Aqueon Proflex sump, it is very quiet and have so many options for bubble diffusing, the only problem I had was my skimmer not fitting well in the last chamber
Off topic for this thread. This thread is for the discussion of the Bean Animal silent failsafe overflow drain system.


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Unread 12/04/2014, 10:48 PM   #7568
uncleof6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepydoc View Post
  • The open channel functions as a durso, handling the flow that the full siphon can't. The air intake allows it to handle a fairly wide range of flows before making noise, making the system easy to adjust.
    If the air intake to the open channel standpipe becomes occluded, it no longer functions as a durso and the lack of an air intake forces it into full siphon mode. This dramatically increases the capacity and drops the water level in short order. It also starts 'flushing,' giving an audible warning that something is amiss.
I have seen this posted a couple times now, and it is erroneous. The open channel operates the exact same way as a normal durso. Once the standpipe is 1/4 full of water, it will begin making noise. The bandwidth range for the open channel is very narrow. Topping out at the same level as any other durso: ~ 350gph. That is not a very wide bandwidth, and it is not the bandwidth discussed with the BA drain system.

The complete drain system over all, has a very wide bandwidth from around a few hundred gph (no point using it if the flow rate is below that) up to a couple thousand gph, as designed, depending on the length of the drop. The open channel air vent has nothing to do with that bandwidth, it is the siphon itself. The open channel has one primary function: system self-adjustment, to compensate for the inherent instability present in the two pipe siphon system, that consists of a siphon and dry emergency only. (The trickle of flow through the dry emergency is borrowed from Bean's system, and renders "herbie" unsafe to operate.)

Quote:
The dry standpipe is a failsafe backup if the first two fail or are unable to handle the flow.
The dry emergency is a safety backup in case the main siphon becomes occluded. The open channel (tripping to siphon) is the failsafe for the system, if both the siphon and dry emergency become occluded. The open channel is the final line of defense, and if used in another way, chances are very high that the system will not start or run properly.

Quote:
I would argue that it should be the reverse. One of the benefits of the dry channel is that it is just that - dry. If there is no water in it, there is virtually no opportunity for it to become occluded. If you have the dry standpipe kick in before the airline occludes, it is conceivable that when the dry standpipe becomes occluded enough to raise the water level and occlude it, the open channel stand pipe will also have enough of a blockage to cause an issue.

If you configure it in the reverse, so that the opening of the tubing is just below dry standpipe opening, it will occlude and start flushing the open channel pipe first, and the dry standpipe would kick in only if that was unable to handle the flow.

The chances of the above situation happening are admittedly quite remote, but it strikes me as an easy way to maximize the safety of the system.
Seems like it would make sense, but it is at the top of the list for causes of startup issues with BA's system. "Air vent line inlet too low in the overflow." This causes the open channel to trip into siphon mode, before the main siphon purges all the air. The "open channel is taking all the flow" complaint. There are a couple other causes, but very few, and air vent too low is up there with them.

There may be some that don't notice "issues" running the air vent line too low in the overflow, but the system is not running properly. It also short circuits the redundant failsafe of the air vent line, as well as preventing the head height reaching the point that all the air will be purged. A foolproof system does not exist, and probably never will, but you need to have a system that is functiong properly first.

The air vent line inlet needs to be above the inlet to the dry emergency for proper operation of the system.


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Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

Last edited by uncleof6; 12/04/2014 at 10:54 PM.
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Unread 12/05/2014, 10:15 AM   #7569
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does it really matter how far the drains go into the sump?


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Unread 12/05/2014, 10:22 AM   #7570
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Quote:
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does it really matter how far the drains go into the sump?
Yes.


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Unread 12/05/2014, 10:30 AM   #7571
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I know the siphon has to be under the water level, but does it matter how far?


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Unread 12/05/2014, 11:07 AM   #7572
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Still yes.


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Unread 12/05/2014, 11:17 AM   #7573
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How far?


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Unread 12/05/2014, 12:21 PM   #7574
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Hey, Great job on the overflow. I love the clean neat look!!


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Unread 12/05/2014, 03:11 PM   #7575
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How far?
Typically, one inch or less below the normal running level of the sump.


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