"Alk burn"

antonsemrad · 07/22/2006, 03:15 PM

Recently I have come across some differn't alk level recomendations.

"i noticed my caps in my tank started to get the "burn" at about 12 DKH i lowered it to around 9-10 DKH".

"IMO there is no good reason to run your SPS any higher than 8.0 dkh. NSW is 7.0- 8.0 so running it at 8.0 is already the high side of NSW. Increasing the DKH only increases your chances for problems IMO."

"I strive for alkalinity levels somewhere between 4 and 5 meq/l, and the results of such elevated levels seem to indicate that reef aquaria thrive with the additional availability of carbonates."

I can't help but think that these people are not "right" or "wrong" as the case my be. It seems that different levels of nutrients play a role. More carbonates can help to mediate problems in sybioses in elevated nitrogen eviornments (I think I read that somewhere). But can the opposite be true? What is happing exactly when coral get the "burn"? What role does ph have in it? (if any)

IMHO blanket statements like the ones above should be taken with a grain of salt. There must be more to it. Pehaps someone could give some tips on how to dial in a good alk level. After all different tanks like different levels, the ? is why.

Billybeau1 · 07/22/2006, 03:52 PM

Well Ant, heres my take.

I target 9 dkh. this is smack dab in the middle of the recommended range. That way if I got a little test kit noise I know I'm within specs.

antonsemrad · 07/22/2006, 04:57 PM

I could dial my alk back some. (4.5 or 12.6dkh) However I would like to know why. Is'nt my low ph (7.8 to 8.1) going to offset this to a degree? I don't have any "burn" and I trust the kits on alk. Any antidotal input?

Billybeau1 · 07/22/2006, 05:28 PM

Just like the rest of us, summertime brings lower pH. When we close our houses up and put the air conditioning on, CO2 levels raise in the house. Lowers pH.

7.8 to 8.1 is a little low but not dangerous. If the house has to stay closed due to heat, a little limewater will help the situation. I'm sure you read "What your grandmother never told you about lime" by RHF. If not give it a read. Again, good stuff.

Boomer · 07/22/2006, 05:37 PM

Ant

IMHO blanket statements like the ones above should be taken with a grain of salt. There must be more to it. Perhaps someone could give some tips on how to dial in a good alk level. After all different tanks like different levels, the ? is why.

I do not know what he means by burning or if it is even burning due to elevated Alk. Higher Alk than seawater in tests have shown they grow faster at higher Alk but not Ca++. But those are labs test. I've never seen such studies done in or on a reef tank

So, I agree with your statement to a point. Each tank is different and different species may/do react different. We try to get people to be in the area of NSW. This will pretty much show where one needs to be.

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters (a summary general article)
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

Boomer · 07/22/2006, 06:00 PM

Ant I forgot

Is'nt my low ph (7.8 to 8.1) going to offset this to a degree? I

You do not need an alk that high. What is causing the low pH is CO2. Dropping the Alk is not going to do much of anything as the ALk has no effect on pH drop due to CO2. Many that run reactors have the same pH's as you do and do fine. This is why some reefers use dual chamber reactors, as the CO2 is "eaten" up in the second reactor keeping the pH more normal.

antonsemrad · 07/22/2006, 06:04 PM

So Boomer are you ? the "alk burn" altogether? I do. I don't understand what is happining when people say their coral got "the burn". However I can't say "you don't know what your talking about." because chances are that would me. lol. What about people that recomend higher that nsw levels of alk? Is this bullpucky too? I'm trying to come to a method that works for me. Knowing what is happing in my tank would be better I think than just doing what works for somone else.

So what happens to corals in sterile reef tanks with elevated alk levels?

What happen to corals in reef tanks that have elevated nitrogen and have high carbonates?

Boomer · 07/22/2006, 06:17 PM

What about people that recommend higher that nsw levels of alk?

Some I think are going by some lab tests, others from their own experience. It is pretty much certain that slightly higher than normal Alk help or makes corals grow faster. Some use a slightly higher Alk to allow for organics and their impact on pH and alk in a closed system

Knowing what is happening in my tank would be better I think than just doing what works for someone else.

That is true if one knows and understands what is going on in their tank. Some just do not.

So what happens to corals in sterile reef tanks with elevated alk levels?

There is not such thing as sterile reef tank

What happen to corals in reef tanks that have elevated nitrogen and have high carbonates?

Carbonates are what makes up your Ak. N in the form of Ammonia, can kill things it is toxic. N in the form of Nitrite, is not toxic to fish but no one is sure about inverts. N as Nitrate, can interfere with coral growth, as can high PO4.

Allot of burning in corals is due to UV light.

antonsemrad · 07/22/2006, 07:19 PM

Lets not get hung up with semantics, I think you know what I mean by sterile reef tank(ie bb, powerfull skimmers, few fish,little or no food, filter floss,ozone, uv sterizers,ect ect ect).

Just because my post # is low dosn't mean that i'm ignorant. I learned about the nitrogen cycle when I was 6 and got my first goldfish.

So, can high alk "burn" corals?

If so would ph be the deciding factor?

Would nutrients be a factor?

Why?

antonsemrad · 07/22/2006, 07:22 PM

Am I not coming though clear here? ( mabye I am ignorant)lol

Billybeau1 · 07/22/2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by antonsemrad
Am I not coming though clear here? ( mabye I am ignorant)lol

maybe ?

Lets see antonsemrad (3 years experience)
Boomer (30+ years experience)

What do you think ?

antonsemrad · 07/22/2006, 07:54 PM

I think yes, definitely. And I guess I will remain ignorant untill someone answers my ?'s ( boomer preferably)

Boomer · 07/22/2006, 07:56 PM

No I did not know what you meant by sterile reef tank, it made no sense. My thought was maybe you were referring to lab studies, like those I mentioned.

Since you asked, no your posts are not clear at all. Your post count has nothing to do with it. I don't look at post counts.

So, can high alk "burn" corals?

I do know what you really mean by burning. Many people run high Alk with no effects and have keep the same animals for years. If the Alk or pH got high enough yes things can get burned it is a caustic solution. Just like if you stuck you hand in concentrated solution of Sodium hydroxide which has a pH of 14. Alk in reef tanks never gets that high to "burn" anything. The term 'burn" is a poor choice, but I know what you or others may mean .i.e, the coral is melting away. I doubt this has anything to do with high alk but may be something else related to a high alk but not Alk itself. This is quite common in chemistry, an indirect relation. Such things are very complicate issues and not understood, especially in a reef tank or this hobby.

I do not know what nutrients would be a factor or at what levels and I doubt anyone does.

I hope you do not take all this wrong, it is not my intention

antonsemrad · 07/22/2006, 09:29 PM

Ok, I will try to be more clear. ( I am new at this after all) In randy's article on nitrate he address problems that occur with elevated levels. As I understand it the zooanthelle outgrow thier hosts. One problem is the coral cannot provide enough carbon(co2). Another is the coral has to deal with the excess oxygen. There are more but lets just deal with these two for now. Extra carbon can be provided in the form of bicarboate. And excess oxygen is dealt with more flow.(respiration) However this come at a cost. And its not exactly natural. This is where the bb rock cookers come in. They limit the amout of n$p to the zooanthelle. (natural) however other sorces of food are also limited(unnatural). These corals sometimes expell the zooanthelle (bleach) either because they don't want to expend the energy to have them, or because they die of starvation. (the zooanthelle) This can help to more closely regulate the amout of "food" that the aquarist exposess to the coral. (dissolved nutrients or otherwise) This makes the colors of the coral show through. ( at least in theory)What I can't understand is what happens when these same people also elevate levels of carbonate. They seem to get a bad reaction from the "sps" corals. They have coined the phrase "alkalinty burn". I don't understand it, they never give ph values when describing it. It just dosn't make sense to me. In my tank n & p are not limiting zooanthelle growth, so this dosn't happen to me. But I still am curious whats happening. I hope this clears up my ?'s

Oh, and i'm not taking this all wrong. I guess I just got a little frustrated. I really do appreciate you answering my ?'s

07/22/2006, 03:15 PM	#1
antonsemrad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Chute WI Posts: 436	"Alk burn" Recently I have come across some differn't alk level recomendations. "i noticed my caps in my tank started to get the "burn" at about 12 DKH i lowered it to around 9-10 DKH". "IMO there is no good reason to run your SPS any higher than 8.0 dkh. NSW is 7.0- 8.0 so running it at 8.0 is already the high side of NSW. Increasing the DKH only increases your chances for problems IMO." "I strive for alkalinity levels somewhere between 4 and 5 meq/l, and the results of such elevated levels seem to indicate that reef aquaria thrive with the additional availability of carbonates." I can't help but think that these people are not "right" or "wrong" as the case my be. It seems that different levels of nutrients play a role. More carbonates can help to mediate problems in sybioses in elevated nitrogen eviornments (I think I read that somewhere). But can the opposite be true? What is happing exactly when coral get the "burn"? What role does ph have in it? (if any) IMHO blanket statements like the ones above should be taken with a grain of salt. There must be more to it. Pehaps someone could give some tips on how to dial in a good alk level. After all different tanks like different levels, the ? is why.

07/22/2006, 05:37 PM	#5
Boomer Bomb Technician (EOD) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 11,842	Ant IMHO blanket statements like the ones above should be taken with a grain of salt. There must be more to it. Perhaps someone could give some tips on how to dial in a good alk level. After all different tanks like different levels, the ? is why. I do not know what he means by burning or if it is even burning due to elevated Alk. Higher Alk than seawater in tests have shown they grow faster at higher Alk but not Ca++. But those are labs test. I've never seen such studies done in or on a reef tank So, I agree with your statement to a point. Each tank is different and different species may/do react different. We try to get people to be in the area of NSW. This will pretty much show where one needs to be. Reef Aquarium Water Parameters (a summary general article) http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm __________________ If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

07/22/2006, 06:00 PM	#6
Boomer Bomb Technician (EOD) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 11,842	Ant I forgot Is'nt my low ph (7.8 to 8.1) going to offset this to a degree? I You do not need an alk that high. What is causing the low pH is CO2. Dropping the Alk is not going to do much of anything as the ALk has no effect on pH drop due to CO2. Many that run reactors have the same pH's as you do and do fine. This is why some reefers use dual chamber reactors, as the CO2 is "eaten" up in the second reactor keeping the pH more normal. __________________ If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

07/22/2006, 03:52 PM	#2
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	Well Ant, heres my take. I target 9 dkh. this is smack dab in the middle of the recommended range. That way if I got a little test kit noise I know I'm within specs.

07/22/2006, 04:57 PM	#3
antonsemrad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Chute WI Posts: 436	I could dial my alk back some. (4.5 or 12.6dkh) However I would like to know why. Is'nt my low ph (7.8 to 8.1) going to offset this to a degree? I don't have any "burn" and I trust the kits on alk. Any antidotal input?

07/22/2006, 05:28 PM	#4
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	Just like the rest of us, summertime brings lower pH. When we close our houses up and put the air conditioning on, CO2 levels raise in the house. Lowers pH. 7.8 to 8.1 is a little low but not dangerous. If the house has to stay closed due to heat, a little limewater will help the situation. I'm sure you read "What your grandmother never told you about lime" by RHF. If not give it a read. Again, good stuff.

07/22/2006, 06:04 PM	#7
antonsemrad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Chute WI Posts: 436	So Boomer are you ? the "alk burn" altogether? I do. I don't understand what is happining when people say their coral got "the burn". However I can't say "you don't know what your talking about." because chances are that would me. lol. What about people that recomend higher that nsw levels of alk? Is this bullpucky too? I'm trying to come to a method that works for me. Knowing what is happing in my tank would be better I think than just doing what works for somone else. So what happens to corals in sterile reef tanks with elevated alk levels? What happen to corals in reef tanks that have elevated nitrogen and have high carbonates?

07/22/2006, 06:17 PM	#8
Boomer Bomb Technician (EOD) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 11,842	What about people that recommend higher that nsw levels of alk? Some I think are going by some lab tests, others from their own experience. It is pretty much certain that slightly higher than normal Alk help or makes corals grow faster. Some use a slightly higher Alk to allow for organics and their impact on pH and alk in a closed system Knowing what is happening in my tank would be better I think than just doing what works for someone else. That is true if one knows and understands what is going on in their tank. Some just do not. So what happens to corals in sterile reef tanks with elevated alk levels? There is not such thing as sterile reef tank What happen to corals in reef tanks that have elevated nitrogen and have high carbonates? Carbonates are what makes up your Ak. N in the form of Ammonia, can kill things it is toxic. N in the form of Nitrite, is not toxic to fish but no one is sure about inverts. N as Nitrate, can interfere with coral growth, as can high PO4. Allot of burning in corals is due to UV light.

07/22/2006, 07:19 PM	#9
antonsemrad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Chute WI Posts: 436	Lets not get hung up with semantics, I think you know what I mean by sterile reef tank(ie bb, powerfull skimmers, few fish,little or no food, filter floss,ozone, uv sterizers,ect ect ect). Just because my post # is low dosn't mean that i'm ignorant. I learned about the nitrogen cycle when I was 6 and got my first goldfish. So, can high alk "burn" corals? If so would ph be the deciding factor? Would nutrients be a factor? Why?

07/22/2006, 07:22 PM	#10
antonsemrad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Chute WI Posts: 436	Am I not coming though clear here? ( mabye I am ignorant)lol

07/22/2006, 07:54 PM	#12
antonsemrad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Chute WI Posts: 436	I think yes, definitely. And I guess I will remain ignorant untill someone answers my ?'s ( boomer preferably)

07/22/2006, 07:56 PM	#13
Boomer Bomb Technician (EOD) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 11,842	No I did not know what you meant by sterile reef tank, it made no sense. My thought was maybe you were referring to lab studies, like those I mentioned. Since you asked, no your posts are not clear at all. Your post count has nothing to do with it. I don't look at post counts. So, can high alk "burn" corals? I do know what you really mean by burning. Many people run high Alk with no effects and have keep the same animals for years. If the Alk or pH got high enough yes things can get burned it is a caustic solution. Just like if you stuck you hand in concentrated solution of Sodium hydroxide which has a pH of 14. Alk in reef tanks never gets that high to "burn" anything. The term 'burn" is a poor choice, but I know what you or others may mean .i.e, the coral is melting away. I doubt this has anything to do with high alk but may be something else related to a high alk but not Alk itself. This is quite common in chemistry, an indirect relation. Such things are very complicate issues and not understood, especially in a reef tank or this hobby. I do not know what nutrients would be a factor or at what levels and I doubt anyone does. I hope you do not take all this wrong, it is not my intention

07/22/2006, 09:29 PM	#14
antonsemrad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Chute WI Posts: 436	Ok, I will try to be more clear. ( I am new at this after all) In randy's article on nitrate he address problems that occur with elevated levels. As I understand it the zooanthelle outgrow thier hosts. One problem is the coral cannot provide enough carbon(co2). Another is the coral has to deal with the excess oxygen. There are more but lets just deal with these two for now. Extra carbon can be provided in the form of bicarboate. And excess oxygen is dealt with more flow.(respiration) However this come at a cost. And its not exactly natural. This is where the bb rock cookers come in. They limit the amout of n$p to the zooanthelle. (natural) however other sorces of food are also limited(unnatural). These corals sometimes expell the zooanthelle (bleach) either because they don't want to expend the energy to have them, or because they die of starvation. (the zooanthelle) This can help to more closely regulate the amout of "food" that the aquarist exposess to the coral. (dissolved nutrients or otherwise) This makes the colors of the coral show through. ( at least in theory)What I can't understand is what happens when these same people also elevate levels of carbonate. They seem to get a bad reaction from the "sps" corals. They have coined the phrase "alkalinty burn". I don't understand it, they never give ph values when describing it. It just dosn't make sense to me. In my tank n & p are not limiting zooanthelle growth, so this dosn't happen to me. But I still am curious whats happening. I hope this clears up my ?'s Oh, and i'm not taking this all wrong. I guess I just got a little frustrated. I really do appreciate you answering my ?'s