Lanthanum chloride - Page 11

Gary Majchrzak · 02/13/2010, 06:41 PM

it's guys like Yaiullo, Bingman, Boomer (here on RC), Randy Holmes-Farley, Mitch Carl, Randy Donowitz (and a few others) that deserve much credit for their research on this topic (ie: PO4 reduction/removal).

Now what we need is someone to design a plug and play easy to use kalkwasser injector for protein skimmers......

LFS_worker · 02/13/2010, 06:48 PM

sadly i take those ideas to captain7359 : walt in about 7 seconds would have something tapped into the neck of the skimmer in a high "churn" area and have some kalk skimmate in no time LOL. Im sure he knows just the perfect john guest fitting. WALTER HELP!!!!!!

Sorry for the off topic great thread

Gary Majchrzak · 02/13/2010, 07:00 PM

it's all good.

Guys like Walter will make it happen. Somebody reading this thread is probably already working on such a contraption.

Matt_Wandell · 02/14/2010, 11:05 AM

Take a bubble counter, flip it upside down, and tap it into the center of the collection cup lid. Done.

If you can get a hold of an IV drip bag kit from an EMT or doctor that would work fine too. Might have to do some cajoling but if we can get Interceptor from a vet a little $1 piece of plastic should be no problem.

Gary Majchrzak · 02/14/2010, 11:07 AM

have you done this before, Matt?

Matt_Wandell · 02/15/2010, 05:36 PM

Not yet! Thinking about doing it on a tank at work though...

captain7359 · 02/15/2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak

Now what we need is someone to design a plug and play easy to use kalkwasser injector for protein skimmers......

Liquid slurry or dry powder????

I go away for the weekend and almost miss a good reason to go out and play in the shop.

Back on topic I'd love to see how the big tanks are being dosed with the sand filters or dosing into the parallel filter that some are doing. The filter sock is easy, but I'm still not convinced that all the LaCl is getting picked up or used up the first pass down into it.

Gravesj1s · 02/16/2010, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain7359

Liquid slurry or dry powder????

I go away for the weekend and almost miss a good reason to go out and play in the shop.

Back on topic I'd love to see how the big tanks are being dosed with the sand filters or dosing into the parallel filter that some are doing. The filter sock is easy, but I'm still not convinced that all the LaCl is getting picked up or used up the first pass down into it.

-Captain,

I recall some years back when Bob Starks company (esv) released the Bromide & Floride it was "hotly"debated. Some theorized the potential for negative extracelluar reactions.I dont remember much about Br other than some sponge toxcitys...Flouride on the other hand the argument was that it could promote density in coral skeleton mass in the sense coral skeletons in home aquariums are much more fragile then the wild counterparts.
Clorine a known halogen as well and as you noted above your not convinced LaCl is being picked up on the first pass. My question is has anyone given much thought on free Cloride coverting to the more unfriendly Cl-I think carbon probably takes much if any worries out of it but wondering the thought of this from those posting here?

Fwiw,I couldn't open the linkage you posted, they want me to buy javascript or something.Also, high school chems been a while so go easy on me.

reefkeeper2 · 02/17/2010, 09:53 AM

I have been using lanthanum by injecting it into a diatom filter for well over a year now. This works the same way as a sand filter and no precipitate makes it way into the display. I tried the filter socks and had negative reactions with my clams which told me some lanthanum was getting through. Not to mention what a pain it was cleaning the socks, the diatom filter works much better.

NaClH2Opgh · 02/17/2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

I have been using lanthanum by injecting it into a diatom filter for well over a year now. This works the same way as a sand filter and no precipitate makes it way into the display. I tried the filter socks and had negative reactions with my clams which told me some lanthanum was getting through. Not to mention what a pain it was cleaning the socks, the diatom filter works much better.

How much were you dosing? I have two calms and use the filter sock method and no adverse reaction to the clams.

captain7359 · 02/17/2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

I have been using lanthanum by injecting it into a diatom filter for well over a year now.

Are you loading the filter with diatom media first or letting the LaCl precipitate act as the media?

H20ENG · 02/17/2010, 11:14 AM

Which diatom filter are you using? IME dealing with the clogged DE is just as messy as cleaning a sock. Curious as to your methods. Thanks!

reefkeeper2 · 02/17/2010, 11:28 AM

I don't remember what the dosage was when I was using the socks. I tried different dosages at that time. I also noticed that when using the socks I could not get the phophate levels down as far as I liked, no matter how much of how often I dosed. Randy Holmes Farley said that was because there was ultra fine particulate getting through the sock and my test kit would pick that up. When I read about public aquaria using sand filters with lanthanum, I thought of using my vortex diatom filter. It worked like a charm. After a treatment using the diatom filter, my photometer would give a reading of 0. There were also no ill affects from any of my animals.
I charge the filter with diatom powder and superchar norit carbon. I take 50ml of RO/DI and mix it with 10ml of Seaklear pool phosphate remover. I have a syringe pump that injects 4ml an hour of this mixture into the diatom. My total tank volume is about 550gal.
I usually have to clean and charge the filter twice, as it will become clogged with precipitate in about 2-3 hours.

Gary Majchrzak · 02/17/2010, 11:33 AM

Hi, Paul... glad you could add to this thread.

What micron size was the filter sock you were using?

reefkeeper2 · 02/17/2010, 11:48 AM

I was using 10 micron socks. If I remember correctly one of Randys concerns of using lanthanum was the possibilty of the precipitate building up in the system creating a pool of stored phosphate. I was certain that some was getting through using the socks and had no idea if it could cause problems in the long term. So I stopped using lanthanum altogether until I came up with the diatom idea.
A while back I received an IM from another member of RC (Elliott) who plumbed a diatom pool filter to his sump and was dosing lanthanum that way. It had a nice backflush feature that made cleaning easy and he ran it daily! Last I heard it was working well for him.
The biggest drawback is cleaning the filter. I do think it's easier than cleaning and bleaching the socks though hands down

Gary Majchrzak · 02/17/2010, 11:58 AM

doubtless a diatom filter might be the best choice for many.

I'm in an enviable position: the filter socks located in my sump are literally 36" from the wash basin I use to clean them, so dealing with a diatom filter might be a little more labor intensive than a quick handwash for me.

reefkeeper2 · 02/17/2010, 12:18 PM

How I would love to have a sink near my sump! I have literally been using diatom filters for decades, so I could take the thing apart and clean it blindfolded. The socks were not that much work either so it was like 12 of one, or half dozen of the other.The real issue for me was the question of whether lanthanum was getting into my system, and getting the phosphates down to where I wanted them.
If you can find a filter somewhere, or borrow one from someone, give it a try. You might like it better.

Gary Majchrzak · 02/17/2010, 04:21 PM

I guess the only way to compare would be to try it for myself

NaClH2Opgh · 02/17/2010, 04:28 PM

I have some spare acrylic tube sitting around. I was thinking about making a filter for this. Have it completely out of the water sitting on top of the sump. I was just going to fit a filter sock inside with some filter floss. I would have the top completely open and close the bottom with a flat piece of acrylic. I could just have an outlet on the side at the very bottom with a valve on it. I already have a manifold in my sump with a spare line so I would just run it into the top of the acrylic tube. I could just drip an LaCl and rodi mixture in in the top also.

Do you think that would work? Or is it too much trouble and just stick with the sock in the sump?

Gary Majchrzak · 02/17/2010, 04:33 PM

could such a device work? yes.
would it be too much trouble? that would be up to you

one thing to consider: a clogged mechanical filtration device gets really heavy.

NaClH2Opgh · 02/17/2010, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak

could such a device work? yes.
would it be too much trouble? that would be up to you

one thing to consider: a clogged mechanical filtration device gets really heavy.

Thanks

It wouldn't be any more work than changing a filter sock now probably easier.
Weight won't be an issue. It will have it's own little stand.

I'll give it a shot and let you know how it works.

Matt_Wandell · 02/17/2010, 11:30 PM

Can't say I've ever used a diatom filter before. What's a good brand and model for an application like this? I'm guessing you'd only need to process a few hundred gph, right?

reefkeeper2 · 02/18/2010, 08:14 AM

The only brand made for aquarium use I know of is Vortex and they have been around for many years. There are two models. I have the larger XL one.
I have been using them for maintenance long before I started using lanthanum. When charged with the powdered carbon nothing cleans and polishes the water better, so even if you don't like the lanthanum application you still might find having one useful.

Matt_Wandell · 02/18/2010, 09:20 AM

Thanks Paul!

captain7359 · 02/18/2010, 09:34 AM

Anyone know what the reaction between the LaCl and ozone would be?

I'm currently venturi injecting ozone into a reactor (the partial one on the left with bio balls which then feed into the one on the right with more bio balls then back to the sump) and could tee in before the air inlet to the venuri to dose LaCl into the reactors. These are part of my every other monthly cleaning program and may knock enough precip out as well as give a ton of contact time. they also dump into the sump into a filter sock as a final catch all, so I could go with a 5 or 10 micron sock for final cleaning.

Still want to see one of the sand rigs since they seem to be the best option for larger systems just for comparison.

02/13/2010, 06:41 PM	#251
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	thanks for the kind words, Brian it's guys like Yaiullo, Bingman, Boomer (here on RC), Randy Holmes-Farley, Mitch Carl, Randy Donowitz (and a few others) that deserve much credit for their research on this topic (ie: PO4 reduction/removal). Now what we need is someone to design a plug and play easy to use kalkwasser injector for protein skimmers...... __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

02/13/2010, 06:48 PM	#252
LFS_worker 'ignoramus maximus' Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Rochester Posts: 1,481	sadly i take those ideas to captain7359 : walt in about 7 seconds would have something tapped into the neck of the skimmer in a high "churn" area and have some kalk skimmate in no time LOL. Im sure he knows just the perfect john guest fitting. WALTER HELP!!!!!! Sorry for the off topic great thread __________________ Save a reef, Grow a coral - Brian Borate Current Tank Info: I dont have any tanks :)

02/13/2010, 07:00 PM	#253
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	it's all good. Guys like Walter will make it happen. Somebody reading this thread is probably already working on such a contraption. __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

02/14/2010, 11:07 AM	#255
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	have you done this before, Matt? __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

02/17/2010, 09:53 AM	#259
reefkeeper2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Bridgewater, MA Posts: 1,234	I have been using lanthanum by injecting it into a diatom filter for well over a year now. This works the same way as a sand filter and no precipitate makes it way into the display. I tried the filter socks and had negative reactions with my clams which told me some lanthanum was getting through. Not to mention what a pain it was cleaning the socks, the diatom filter works much better. __________________ Paul Dec 08 TOTM Current Tank Info: Envisions 427gal

02/14/2010, 11:05 AM	#254
Matt_Wandell Moved On Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SF CA Posts: 1,257	Take a bubble counter, flip it upside down, and tap it into the center of the collection cup lid. Done. If you can get a hold of an IV drip bag kit from an EMT or doctor that would work fine too. Might have to do some cajoling but if we can get Interceptor from a vet a little $1 piece of plastic should be no problem.

02/15/2010, 05:36 PM	#256
Matt_Wandell Moved On Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SF CA Posts: 1,257	Not yet! Thinking about doing it on a tank at work though...

02/17/2010, 11:14 AM	#262
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	Which diatom filter are you using? IME dealing with the clogged DE is just as messy as cleaning a sock. Curious as to your methods. Thanks!

02/17/2010, 11:28 AM	#263
reefkeeper2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Bridgewater, MA Posts: 1,234	I don't remember what the dosage was when I was using the socks. I tried different dosages at that time. I also noticed that when using the socks I could not get the phophate levels down as far as I liked, no matter how much of how often I dosed. Randy Holmes Farley said that was because there was ultra fine particulate getting through the sock and my test kit would pick that up. When I read about public aquaria using sand filters with lanthanum, I thought of using my vortex diatom filter. It worked like a charm. After a treatment using the diatom filter, my photometer would give a reading of 0. There were also no ill affects from any of my animals. I charge the filter with diatom powder and superchar norit carbon. I take 50ml of RO/DI and mix it with 10ml of Seaklear pool phosphate remover. I have a syringe pump that injects 4ml an hour of this mixture into the diatom. My total tank volume is about 550gal. I usually have to clean and charge the filter twice, as it will become clogged with precipitate in about 2-3 hours. __________________ Paul Dec 08 TOTM Current Tank Info: Envisions 427gal

02/17/2010, 11:33 AM	#264
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	Hi, Paul... glad you could add to this thread. What micron size was the filter sock you were using? __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

02/17/2010, 11:48 AM	#265
reefkeeper2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Bridgewater, MA Posts: 1,234	I was using 10 micron socks. If I remember correctly one of Randys concerns of using lanthanum was the possibilty of the precipitate building up in the system creating a pool of stored phosphate. I was certain that some was getting through using the socks and had no idea if it could cause problems in the long term. So I stopped using lanthanum altogether until I came up with the diatom idea. A while back I received an IM from another member of RC (Elliott) who plumbed a diatom pool filter to his sump and was dosing lanthanum that way. It had a nice backflush feature that made cleaning easy and he ran it daily! Last I heard it was working well for him. The biggest drawback is cleaning the filter. I do think it's easier than cleaning and bleaching the socks though hands down __________________ Paul Dec 08 TOTM Current Tank Info: Envisions 427gal

02/17/2010, 11:58 AM	#266
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	doubtless a diatom filter might be the best choice for many. I'm in an enviable position: the filter socks located in my sump are literally 36" from the wash basin I use to clean them, so dealing with a diatom filter might be a little more labor intensive than a quick handwash for me. __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

02/17/2010, 12:18 PM	#267
reefkeeper2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Bridgewater, MA Posts: 1,234	How I would love to have a sink near my sump! I have literally been using diatom filters for decades, so I could take the thing apart and clean it blindfolded. The socks were not that much work either so it was like 12 of one, or half dozen of the other.The real issue for me was the question of whether lanthanum was getting into my system, and getting the phosphates down to where I wanted them. If you can find a filter somewhere, or borrow one from someone, give it a try. You might like it better. __________________ Paul Dec 08 TOTM Current Tank Info: Envisions 427gal

02/17/2010, 04:21 PM	#268
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	I guess the only way to compare would be to try it for myself __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

02/17/2010, 04:28 PM	#269
NaClH2Opgh Moved On Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA. Posts: 647	I have some spare acrylic tube sitting around. I was thinking about making a filter for this. Have it completely out of the water sitting on top of the sump. I was just going to fit a filter sock inside with some filter floss. I would have the top completely open and close the bottom with a flat piece of acrylic. I could just have an outlet on the side at the very bottom with a valve on it. I already have a manifold in my sump with a spare line so I would just run it into the top of the acrylic tube. I could just drip an LaCl and rodi mixture in in the top also. Do you think that would work? Or is it too much trouble and just stick with the sock in the sump?

02/17/2010, 04:33 PM	#270
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	could such a device work? yes. would it be too much trouble? that would be up to you one thing to consider: a clogged mechanical filtration device gets really heavy. __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

02/17/2010, 11:30 PM	#272
Matt_Wandell Moved On Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SF CA Posts: 1,257	Can't say I've ever used a diatom filter before. What's a good brand and model for an application like this? I'm guessing you'd only need to process a few hundred gph, right?

02/18/2010, 08:14 AM	#273
reefkeeper2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Bridgewater, MA Posts: 1,234	The only brand made for aquarium use I know of is Vortex and they have been around for many years. There are two models. I have the larger XL one. I have been using them for maintenance long before I started using lanthanum. When charged with the powdered carbon nothing cleans and polishes the water better, so even if you don't like the lanthanum application you still might find having one useful. __________________ Paul Dec 08 TOTM Current Tank Info: Envisions 427gal

02/18/2010, 09:20 AM	#274
Matt_Wandell Moved On Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SF CA Posts: 1,257	Thanks Paul!

02/18/2010, 09:34 AM	#275
captain7359 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Irondequoit, NY Posts: 2,182	Anyone know what the reaction between the LaCl and ozone would be? I'm currently venturi injecting ozone into a reactor (the partial one on the left with bio balls which then feed into the one on the right with more bio balls then back to the sump) and could tee in before the air inlet to the venuri to dose LaCl into the reactors. These are part of my every other monthly cleaning program and may knock enough precip out as well as give a ton of contact time. they also dump into the sump into a filter sock as a final catch all, so I could go with a 5 or 10 micron sock for final cleaning. Still want to see one of the sand rigs since they seem to be the best option for larger systems just for comparison.