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Unread 11/20/2010, 08:08 AM   #1
MechEng99
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Rescue Purple Tang - Help save him too...

Hi all,

I was given a purple tang last week to try to rescue and get to recover from HLLE. The previous owner had him in a 180g with a Powder Blue, Sailfin Tang, and a Foxface. They pretty much tormented the Purple Tang, so the owner had to move him to his 75g, which is where he developed HLLE.

Upon getting him home, I put him into a QT tank (already setup) and started dropping the salinity over a period of a few days (maybe 4?) After the salinity got to 1.009, the tang developed white sandy dots all over him, and he started breathing rapidly. Well, I've never seen Cryptocaryon start AFTER I start hypo. I figured these were just embedded, so all I could do was wait for the hypo to start taking effect. After no change in a day, and the fish's breathing was getting more labored, I decided to try other things.

After a week of having him (2 days of white spots and heavy breathing), I decided to give him a freshwater dip in Methylene Blue. At this point, I figured either he needed immediate relief or to be put to sleep...he was that bad. He reacted well to the dip - breathing rate slowed, and he just swam around like nothing was bothering him for the duration of the dip (10 min).

Nothing fell off during the dip. ARRRGH. As soon as he went back into the QT, it was just like before. At that point, he was starting to lay over, breathing heavily, and white spots. I decided to give one last shot - combo of formalin and copper in case it is Amyloodinium. I'm not a quitter, and obviously neither is he.

It's now Day 3 of the white spots, and he's still alive. He's obviously in a lot of distress, and I don't know what to do now. Just wait? I don't want to keep torturing him with various medications hoping something will work. What is this? Shouldn't Cryptocaryon be about gone by now (on to the next stage where hopefully hypo and the copper will do their jobs)? Wouldn't Amyloodinium have somewhat fallen off during the freshwater dip? What is this stuff?

Tang with white sandy dots, labored breathing, laying a bit to one side, hides all the time (may be from being previously bullied though, I don't know). His skin is almost furry, if that makes any sense.



Oh, and the rocks/sand came out for the copper/formalin treatment. I leave rocks/sand in during hyposalinity to provide a more natural environment and bacterial filter. I usually avoid using freshwater dips and copper on Tangs, but he's in a bad situation right now.

Medications I have on hand for fish:

Formalin
PraziPro
Erithromycin
Furan-2
Chelated Copper
Methylene Blue

Thanks everyone - hopefully we'll be able to save him. Oh, and he's eating, but only dried seaweed. He isn't touching the Formula 2 the previous owner said he ate (soaked in Selcon & VitaChem).


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Unread 11/21/2010, 09:20 PM   #2
MechEng99
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Aaaaanyone? Still no change - white dots all over, in formalin/copper/erithromycin combo treatment, still only eating seaweed. How long will it take to notice a difference?


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Unread 11/21/2010, 09:42 PM   #3
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As long as its still eating thats a good sign


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Unread 11/22/2010, 05:49 AM   #4
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In the condiiton that fish is in I probably would have gone with the Cupramine versus the hypo. But now that you are going with Hypo stick with it and make sure the level stays at 1.009 nothing more maybe even a little less....1.008. It could take some time for the crypt to run its course...If the fish is eating that is a good sign and I would just stick with it. Kwwp a good eye on PH and have plenty of water made and buffered to do water changes at the 1.008 level. Good Luck...That fish is in HORRIBLE shape......


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Unread 11/22/2010, 05:54 AM   #5
MechEng99
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RBU1 - Do you think it's Crypt rather than Amyloodinium? The fish originally didn't have the white spots when I got him, so I decided to do hypo rather than a copper treatment just to make sure he was ok. During the hypo treatment is when he developed the white spots.

Thankfully he's eating, but only algae, and not as much as I'd like him to be eating.

Yeah, no kidding, he's really in bad shape - I just hope I can keep him healthy...even if he doesn't recover from the HLLE. Thanks for the reply.


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Unread 11/22/2010, 06:02 AM   #6
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In my opinion....I would say Crypt. If it was velvet I would think in his condition he would have passed already. Stick with it and hopefully he will make it thru. Even in copper I have had fish with Crypt for about a week.


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Unread 11/22/2010, 06:03 AM   #7
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The important thing I can't stress enough is keep a good eye on water quality. PH and ammonia.....Have plenty of water made up ready to go...


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Unread 11/22/2010, 07:38 AM   #8
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man good luck. That is soo da** sad. Keep us posted.


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Unread 11/22/2010, 11:31 AM   #9
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wow that fish is in bad shape but hopefully he will make a full recovery, good luck and keep us posted


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Unread 11/22/2010, 03:27 PM   #10
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WOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Treatment is working (I think...) Almost all the white spots are gone today...just a couple remaining. Oy, it's been a long week with this guy. I'll keep treating with the formalin/copper/erithromycin treatment for a few more days to make sure the next stage (if it is velvet) dies...and I'll continue with hypo for the remainder of the 6 weeks. I think we made it! (Knock on wood!) I'm doing daily water changes to avoid issues with ammonia, and no problems with pH so far.

Thanks everyone. I'm really really trying my best to rescue this lil dude. I"m pretty good with rescuing dying corals, but I'm new to rescuing fish. Now that the white spots are almost gone, I'll start trying to get him to recover from HLLE now. I'll keep posting my progress - I think there needs to be more threads about saving fish. My husband told me several days ago to put the fish in the freezer since he was in such bad shape, but I think aquarist education and preparation will help save a lot of fish that would otherwise be tossed aside.

Thanks again everyone. Hopefully I'll have some pictures of a beautiful Purple Tang in a few weeks.


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Unread 11/22/2010, 04:44 PM   #11
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Sorry, but that is just the Ich cycle. The Ich will leave the fish to eventually within 4 weeks hatch out some new Tomites that will attach your fish unless you have sufficient medication in the tank to kill them. The free swimming stage is the ONLY stage that they can be killed. The medication has NO affect on Ich while it is on the fish.

If it is Ich, Cupramine in the tank will do the trick.

PS Not likely HLLE will get any better...at least my Purple Tang never did (due to carbon fine in the water).


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Unread 11/22/2010, 07:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalAngel View Post
Sorry, but that is just the Ich cycle. The Ich will leave the fish to eventually within 4 weeks hatch out some new Tomites that will attach your fish unless you have sufficient medication in the tank to kill them. The free swimming stage is the ONLY stage that they can be killed. The medication has NO affect on Ich while it is on the fish.

If it is Ich, Cupramine in the tank will do the trick.

PS Not likely HLLE will get any better...at least my Purple Tang never did (due to carbon fine in the water).
It is only the opinion a few about the carbon fines causing lateral line....If you rinse the carbon good and have a skimmer you should not have any issues. I have been running carbon for years with no issues.

Hopefully the hypo is at the proper level and the reinfestation will be less. Key is keep ing the fish in good water and well fed.....


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Unread 11/22/2010, 08:28 PM   #13
MechEng99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalAngel View Post
Sorry, but that is just the Ich cycle. The Ich will leave the fish to eventually within 4 weeks hatch out some new Tomites that will attach your fish unless you have sufficient medication in the tank to kill them. The free swimming stage is the ONLY stage that they can be killed. The medication has NO affect on Ich while it is on the fish.
I'm sorry, but I think I've stated enough info in previous posts that I'm fully aware of the Ich/velvet cycle - the fish is in hypo along with formalin/copper/erithromycin, and he'll stay in the copper (Cupramine like you stated is a form of copper) for several more days in case it's velvet...and stay in hypo for several more weeks in case it's crypt. I think my treatment is more than sufficient for crypt/velvet. If it's something else (fungus/bacteria?) then I need to rethink, and that's what I was worried about when posting.

Do you have any evidence that fish are unlikely to recover from HLLE other than your experience? From my research, some fish will recover just fine with proper husbandry and diet. In fact, my purple tang is already starting to heal from the HLLE. While he may not recover completely, any amount is worth the effort. No offense, but I believe stating opinions that lead aquarists to loss of hope leads to a lot of unnecessary fish loss. We need to be realistic, but also encouraging of those trying to change the aquarium hobby.

Years ago, mandarins couldn't be kept in a nano, filefish couldn't be kept with a reef tank, and I'm sure we'll realize soon that HLLE is caused by something like not smiling enough at your fish. (That was a bit of sarcasm/joking). My point is, someone has to try...why not me? It's better than flushing him.


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Unread 11/22/2010, 09:06 PM   #14
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That is awesome news to hear! It can recover from hlle but I believe as bad as
It was it will probably have scaring permanently but it should live a normal life


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Unread 11/22/2010, 09:58 PM   #15
MechEng99
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I'm sure it'll have some scarring, but I doubt he'll be permanently as bad as he was. He's already breathing normally, not lying to one side, and is out and about a bit more. I'm not going to get too overconfident yet - we're not out of the woods yet.


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Unread 11/22/2010, 10:03 PM   #16
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Ugh lateral line is terrible =/. Hope it heals.


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Unread 11/22/2010, 10:19 PM   #17
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No it won't be as bad and as long as he's healthy I think it's awesome what you are doing. Everytime I go into a lfs and see fish this way I want to take them home and help them recover but I don't have a big enough tank to do that. Keep us posted and keep up the good work!


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Unread 11/23/2010, 02:56 PM   #18
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great news hopefully hes out of the woods


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Unread 11/23/2010, 03:39 PM   #19
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I wish you the best of luck! Purple tangs really are beautiful fish, the scarring will only be a mark of the success you've had.


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Unread 11/23/2010, 04:35 PM   #20
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Keep up the good work....


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Unread 11/23/2010, 05:06 PM   #21
MechEng99
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Thanks everyone...really appreciate the support and ideas. All white specks are gone. After the Thanksgiving holiday here, I'll post up some new pictures.


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Unread 11/23/2010, 07:16 PM   #22
RegalAngel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechEng99 View Post
I'm sorry, but I think I've stated enough info in previous posts that I'm fully aware of the Ich/velvet cycle - the fish is in hypo along with formalin/copper/erithromycin, and he'll stay in the copper (Cupramine like you stated is a form of copper) for several more days in case it's velvet...and stay in hypo for several more weeks in case it's crypt. I think my treatment is more than sufficient for crypt/velvet. If it's something else (fungus/bacteria?) then I need to rethink, and that's what I was worried about when posting.

Do you have any evidence that fish are unlikely to recover from HLLE other than your experience? From my research, some fish will recover just fine with proper husbandry and diet. In fact, my purple tang is already starting to heal from the HLLE. While he may not recover completely, any amount is worth the effort. No offense, but I believe stating opinions that lead aquarists to loss of hope leads to a lot of unnecessary fish loss. We need to be realistic, but also encouraging of those trying to change the aquarium hobby.

Years ago, mandarins couldn't be kept in a nano, filefish couldn't be kept with a reef tank, and I'm sure we'll realize soon that HLLE is caused by something like not smiling enough at your fish. (That was a bit of sarcasm/joking). My point is, someone has to try...why not me? It's better than flushing him.

I can only relate to the four fish that I have had with HLLE. The purple tang of mine was not as bad as yours, but I inquired of JHemdal ( a Reef Central member and who is doing studies on the cause of HLLE ) about the likely outcome of my Purple....his answer was it was likely to be badly scarred for ever. Contact Jay and have him take a look and you will get an answer to your question.

My Emperor and Majestic remain scarred 9 months after being damaged with HLLE. The scarring is mainly on their foreheads, but no change apparent.

If you are looking to have a fish that will survive and function as a fish then you likely can achieve that goal. If you want a beautiful Purple Tang that will be a decorative fish for your display... I would move on.


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Unread 11/23/2010, 08:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalAngel View Post
I can only relate to the four fish that I have had with HLLE. The purple tang of mine was not as bad as yours, but I inquired of JHemdal ( a Reef Central member and who is doing studies on the cause of HLLE ) about the likely outcome of my Purple....his answer was it was likely to be badly scarred for ever. Contact Jay and have him take a look and you will get an answer to your question.

My Emperor and Majestic remain scarred 9 months after being damaged with HLLE. The scarring is mainly on their foreheads, but no change apparent.

If you are looking to have a fish that will survive and function as a fish then you likely can achieve that goal. If you want a beautiful Purple Tang that will be a decorative fish for your display... I would move on.
When you mentioned carbon and lateral line J came right tom mind. I have read several of his threads metioning it. I also think I remember reading that if you use a skimmer and rinse the carbon you are likely not going to have any issues.

I think the poster wants to save this fish and really does not care if it does not look like that perfect purple tang. I admire that.......Hopefully the fella pulls thru. I might not be a model fish but at least its alive.....


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Unread 11/23/2010, 08:50 PM   #24
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I'm sorry for your experiences with HLLE and tangs. I'll remain optimistic until proven otherwise. I have no doubt he'll have some permanent damage, but I wasn't looking for a cheap decorative fish for my display - I was looking to save a fish that others may not appreciate since he may not be a "decorative fish for the display". I guess shame on me for having a heart.

I'm sorry for being somewhat defensive, but why are you so obsessed with basically telling me I'm going to have an ugly fish from HLLE? I never once asked for opinions on the HLLE, only on what to do about the white spots (from which my tang recovered with treatment). I'm fully aware of the risks and probability that it'll recover. Also, my fish was completely removed from all traces of his previous environment whereas your fish with HLLE are still your fish in your home, with probably the majority of the original environment still intact. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that my tang probably has more of a chance to recover with a completely different environment than maintaining him in his current environment and hope he recovers.

So...YAY FOR UGLY FISH!


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Unread 11/23/2010, 09:48 PM   #25
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I admire what you are doing keep up the good work!!!


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