Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Camarofish]

Originally Posted by Djbeasley05

You can accomplish the same thing by just shutting off your return pump for maintenance. Once the siphon breaks you won’t have any water coming out and you can isconnect at the Union without having to retune your drain


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Sweet! Thanks for the advice!

[Hal]

Originally Posted by DougSupreme

What is more important to the flow of a siphon? The weight of the water below the bulkhead? Or the weight of the water above the bulkhead?

My overflow is only about 6" deep, but I will have about a 3' fall. How do I determine my flow rate of the siphon?

Using your parlance, it's actually the sum of the weight of the water in the pipe, both above and below the bulkhead. Said another way, it's the length of the pipe that is fully full of water plus any water height above that.

Because gravity accelerates the water at 32 ft per second squared, the longer the water is in the pipe, the faster it will flow. And because the pipe is in siphon mode, the falling water pulls on the water above it, sucking water into the siphon (assuming you have enough water to fully supply the siphon), and accelerating the new water as the earlier water accelerates. So if the first water in the siphon hits the sump at 2000 gph, for example, ALL the water in the siphon tube is moving at 2000 gph at the very instant that it enters the siphon (because the earlier water pulls it down).

In contrast, in non-siphon mode, the first water down the drain does not "pull" on the later water, so each water drop starts out at 32 feet per second squared and gradually accelerates to its final flowrate.

Another way to think of it is that you have car #1 (non-siphon) doing 1/4 mile drag race. It starts from a standing position and accelerates normally from 0 to 200 mph by the time it hits the finish. In contrast car #2 (siphon) is instantly accelerated to 200 mph the second the light turns green and runs the entire race at 200 mph. Which car wins the race?

[rlinusc]

Hello all, I have a bean animal set up for the first time- the actual drain is pretty quiet, but there is noise from the water coming in from the bulkhead to the overflow box- I did set up the level such that the water level is about in the middle of the bulkhead and the open channel is set pretty muc( at the same spot. Is this noise just what I should expect?


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[rlinusc]

On second thought, 8 think this is much louder than it should be, not sure if I did something er8ng on the open channel, if I have the water level (adjusting the siphon) cover the bulkheads, it is still loud and the open channel has a ton of bubbles. Maybe my siphon hasn’t purged the air? I tested hav8ng the airline going in the water and the open channel did go into siphon mode.

To be clear my siphon is only about 4 inches below the mid point of the open channel, so maybe it just won’t purge the air? I made sure to have both the open and siphon to not let out too far below the surface of the sump. I don’t see the siphon vortexing and I don’t have any horizontal runs just 45s.

Is there a post in troubleshooting I am missing?


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[Djbeasley05]

Originally Posted by rlinusc

On second thought, 8 think this is much louder than it should be, not sure if I did something er8ng on the open channel, if I have the water level (adjusting the siphon) cover the bulkheads, it is still loud and the open channel has a ton of bubbles. Maybe my siphon hasn’t purged the air? I tested hav8ng the airline going in the water and the open channel did go into siphon mode.

To be clear my siphon is only about 4 inches below the mid point of the open channel, so maybe it just won’t purge the air? I made sure to have both the open and siphon to not let out too far below the surface of the sump. I don’t see the siphon vortexing and I don’t have any horizontal runs just 45s.

Is there a post in troubleshooting I am missing?


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It sounds like your open channel is taking too much water. Try lowering the water level in the box without breaking the full siphon.


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[DougSupreme]

Open the valve on your siphon a bit. That will allow more water to flow down the siphon and less down the open channel

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[Djbeasley05]

Originally Posted by DougSupreme

Open the valve on your siphon a bit. That will allow more water to flow down the siphon and less down the open channel

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Implied from my post


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[rlinusc]

Will try that- how do you tell if the siphon air has been purged? There aren’t any bubbles coming from there


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[rlinusc]

So I tried that, got even louder, what confuses me is that beananimal describes the system as self-tuning, and that on start the water should reach the emergency stand pipe before the siphon purges air and then goes into full siphon at which point the water level will go down to the right level on its own (as the full siphon starts moving the water much faster). I dint think this is what is happening with my system, or I am not letting it run down the emergency pipe long enough to purge the air... how long should I expect it to go for?


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[Djbeasley05]

Originally Posted by rlinusc

So I tried that, got even louder, what confuses me is that beananimal describes the system as self-tuning, and that on start the water should reach the emergency stand pipe before the siphon purges air and then goes into full siphon at which point the water level will go down to the right level on its own (as the full siphon starts moving the water much faster). I dint think this is what is happening with my system, or I am not letting it run down the emergency pipe long enough to purge the air... how long should I expect it to go for?


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After you initially tune it, you won’t need to retune in and it will self start. The two things I had to play with to get the full siphon was play with the valve and how far the pipe went under the water line in the sump. If it goes in the water further than 1/2” it might not be able to purge the air.


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[rlinusc]

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn’t have any bubbles, but I don’t know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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[rlinusc]

Originally Posted by Lsufan

No, like he said the valve is what will actually set the water level. The open channel & your pass through holes is what will determine where u want to set the water level. Now that u have a idea of where the water level needs to be relative to the open channel for it to be quiet it should be pretty easy. Now all u need to do is determine how high the water level needs to be on the pass thru bulkheads for that to be quiet. Then set the height of the open channel at that height. Personally, I would set height of the open channel to where the water level will be at about the 1/2 way point on the bulkheads & u should be fine. So being u have determined where the water level needs to be on the open channel for it to be quiet, set that point of the open channel standpipe about 1/2 way on the pass thru bulkheads.

So is it possible that my set up is loud because my open channel is set too low? So that the higher the water is for it come through the bulkhead quieter the open channel takes on too much water? The problem though is even when the water is higher on the bulkhead it isn’t all that quiet


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Originally Posted by rlinusc

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn’t have any bubbles, but I don’t know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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Originally Posted by rlinusc

So is it possible that my set up is loud because my open channel is set too low? So that the higher the water is for it come through the bulkhead quieter the open channel takes on too much water? The problem though is even when the water is higher on the bulkhead it isn’t all that quiet


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It's hard to say, but if you have bubbles coming out of your open than the water flow is too much, it should only trickle over the open.

What LSU suggested (And I would follow his advice) is to adjust your full siphon to set the water level to be right in the middle of your pass through bulk heads, then after that is set, you set the height of your open right at that level so that water only trickles over the open.

Not sure what you were referencing when you stated that

It [pipe] goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches

. If you're talking about the open pipe, depth doesn't matter because you're not trying to create a siphon, you're essentially just allowing water to coat the inside of the pipe as it drains down, if the water flows too fast you will hear it and if it's fast enough to trap air then you'll never achieve silence.

If the full siphon is the pipe that terminates 1-1 1/2 below the surface then you will have to address that. there isn't enough height in your overflow to allow the full siphon to over come that excess pressure to become a full siphon before the open starts taking on too much water. And if that's happening, you wont achieve full silence.

The goal is to allow the full siphon to establish itself all the while the little bit of water flows through the open to balance out the system.

If you can snap some pictures and post them up we may be able to more accurately guide you through adjustment.

[rlinusc]

I think I am not an,e to purge the air before the open takes on too much water, I will shoot a video when I can. One problem too is that the elbo for my open is essentially turned to the side and is in the way of the bulkhead- unavoidable as the box isn’t deep enough.


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Oh, so it may be the water sloshing around the down turned elbow that's the culprit. I personally was able to achieve silence by allowing to pass through bulkheads to be completely under water. From what I gather, my bulkheads sit lower than most ghost weirs. When I designed mine I was under the impression that they were supposed to be submerged, so I cut them in lower.

(Ignore all the writing, I use the overflow box as a dry erase board... hehe)



But you can see that my overflow box is roughly 60% full with the bulkheads completely submerged. not sure that is viable for your set up.

[Lsufan]

If u don’t have any bubbles exiting the syphon pipe then it more then likely has purged the air. The noise almost has to be eighther the open channel taking to much water or it’s the water entering the exterior box thru the pass thru holes. U need to figure out which one of the two it is, or it may be both.

To test it all u should need to do is turn the 90 on the open channel facing up so it isn’t taking any water at all. If that makes it quiet then the open channel is taking to much watet. If it’s still loud then it is the water coming thru the pass thru holes, so u would need to raise the water level in the exterior box. To do that u would need to slightly close the valve on the syphon to raise the water level. Usually the water level needs to be atleast 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up the pass thru holes for it to be quiet. If your holes are drilled lower then normal then u may find u can even have the pass thru holes submerged. Once u determine where the water level needs to be then u can set the hieght of the open channel so it is only taking a trickle of water.

Sisterlimonpots photo is a good example of where the water level needs to be on the open channel, which is the pipe on the left. It can be a little less but any more then where it is in the picture & the open channel will be loud. So if u find the water level in the box has to be 3/4 of the way up the pass thru holes, then set that section of the open channel 3/4 of the way up on the pass thru holes

[rlinusc]

It is now muc much quieter after I raised the open channel..
Hoping it stays this quiet.


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Once the kinks are worked out then all you have to do is forget about it.

[rlinusc]

Ugh so it is not quiet at all-


So here are the changes I made- raised open channel up so that hopefully at the point of “trickle” it is also close to bulkheads being submerged and quieter, took siphon and have it just breaking the sump surface water, had it such that it was a Tony bit short then added an elbow to it in order to submerge. Still loud and I suspect the siphon has not purged the air and the open still has way too much water going down it.


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Is the elbow at the end of the siphon? if so that can cause a lot of the problem, if you cut too much, add a strait coupler to it to achieve the proper depth under the water. Did you determine where the noise is originating from? If you can provide some pictures we may be able to see an obvious problem that you're overlooking.

[rlinusc]

Here are some pics
The first picture is to show the water line, it looks like the emergency and open are same height but the elbow is under water.
The top pipe is the siphon- and the bottom pipe is the open channel as you can tell by he bubbles too much water is coming down the open channel

This picture I switched put the elbow at end of siphon for a straight piece





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[Djbeasley05]

Originally Posted by rlinusc

Here are some pics
The first picture is to show the water line, it looks like the emergency and open are same height but the elbow is under water.
The top pipe is the siphon- and the bottom pipe is the open channel as you can tell by he bubbles too much water is coming down the open channel

This picture I switched put the elbow at end of siphon for a straight piece





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How far into the water is your siphon line going? Start off with the siphon ending above the water level in the sump and see if it purged all the air. If it does, that means your siphon was going too far into the sump water line.


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[rlinusc]

Right now it is about 1/2 inch in, i am confused don’t you want the air purged from siphon? What am I looking for when I have the siphon above the water?


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Originally Posted by rlinusc

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn’t have any bubbles, but I don’t know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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Originally Posted by rlinusc

Right now it is about 1/2 inch in, i am confused don’t you want the air purged from siphon? What am I looking for when I have the siphon above the water?


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Thanks, the pictures help a lot.

Before you take action on anything I say, I would wait for LSU to chime in. I was under the impression that when using a ghost weir, the open channel has to have a downward turned "U" or two 90 degree elbows (turned down) for that particular over flow to work properly. The setup that you have is for the more traditional internal weir. From my research the problems that you're experiencing is the same as most when the ghost weir became popular. The folks that have a better understanding of fluid dynamics came up with the slight changes that LSU has been suggesting in the last few pages of this thread. Again, before doing anything, wait for validation from one of those guys to concur.

Another concern I see is the way you have your pipes entering the sump at a 45 degree angle. All the pictures that I see have them entering the sump perpendicular to the water line. It made sense to me that if the waters journey in the pipe is sloped at a 45 degree angle then it wont gain the speed and momentum to properly siphon like it would if you limited the amount of horizontal and 45 degree runs. From the picture it looks like there's plenty of room for improvement.

And finally, the elbow that you have at the end of the siphon line need to be changed to a straight coupler. But if you're going to make changes to the plumbing, you can fix that then.

[Lsufan]

It is hard to tell in the pictures because u can’t see the entire standpipe inside the box, but it looks like u have way to much water entering the open channel. If that is a tee with a 90 attached for the open channel it looks like the entire tee is submerged which is way to much water. Over half of the tee should not be submerged. . Sisterlimonpots post above where he posted the picture should give u a idea where the water level needs to be relative to the open channel. It should be right at to 1/4” above the bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 attaches to it. The smaller the plumbing the less amount of water the open channel can take. With 1” plumbing the open channel can only take a very small amount of water. 1.5” plumbing can take twice as much as 1” & still remain silent.

Being u still aren’t sure where the noise is coming from I would do what I said in my last post so u can determine where the noise is coming from. It would be pretty easy to test out & then u would know what u need to do instead of guessing & going back & forth. Raise the open channel so it isn’t taking any water at all. If u have a 90 attached to a tee then just turn the 90 facing up. If it’s still under water attach a piece of pipe to extend it to where it is out of the water. That will tell u if it’s the open channel that is making the noise, which I suspect it is. To me it looks like u need to raise the open channel.

Doing that test will also let u play with the water level inside of the overflow box so u can determine where the water level needs to be. If it’s to low the water will be loud coming thru the pass thru bulkheads, but u don’t want it a lot higher then it needs to be eighther. Once u figure out where the water level needs to be inside of the box for the water entering the box to be quiet, set the open channel to that height. So wherever u find the water level needs to be set the bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 attached to it at the height u want the water level.

If u don’t have any bubbles exiting the syphon then it is purging its air. The water exiting the pipe would look like the water that exits the open channel. I would keep the syphon only submerged 1/2”. There really isn’t a point in it being submerged any further & the further it’s submerged the harder it will be to purge the air. What Dj Beasley was saying is to raise the syphon to where it is above the water line just to test it out to see if it would then purge the air. I just don’t think that’s your issue. U would have bubbles exiting the pipe & the water level would be inconsistent. That doesn’t sound like your issues. Also, I wouldn’t submerge the open channel but 1/2” into the sump also. If u submerge it to far & the syphon & emergency gets backed up & u need the open channel to syphon, the last thing u want is for it to have trouble purging the air because u have it submerged to far into the sump