NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

[tmz]

I bolus dose( all at once) 30 ml of vodka and 80ml of vinegar in the am just after lights on in the 650 gallon system. That relatively small amount of vinegar barely moves pH ,less than 0.1. so I can get away with it. If I did more vinegar I would put it on a dosing pump spread over the lights on period.

I also dose an extra 6 ml of vodka at night.

The ethanol takes an extra step as acetic acid bacteria oxidize it to acetic acid which spreads out the pH reaction without a precipitous downward spike , so it's easier to bolus dose it.

The ethanol could also be spread out. .

There may be a spurt of bacterial activity related to the bolus dosing which may lead to higher levels of anaerobic NO3 reduction . To be honest ,though , I do the split bolus dosing mostly because it suits my routine and I don't mind hand feeding the bacteria.
I also like the nighttime dose to enable some continuous level of bacterial activity in case the am dose is depleted over 12hours or so. When I forget it on rare occasion the PO4 is a few hundreths of a ppm higher in the am.

I don't know about the evaporation rates for the ethanol if it's kept in an open container for timed dosing .

[droog]

Originally Posted by shermanator

It's a 6:1 molar ratio by NMR. Ethanol and acetic acid don't have the same molecular weight.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

I was curious about this, so looked up molecular weights and densities

Ethanol 46 g/mol, 0.7892 g/ml
Acetic Acid 60 g/mol, 1.05 g/ml

Playing around with these I could't make 3.5:1 by volume come out to be close to 6:1 by molar ratio. I believe you're right and the two things are close, but somehow I can't figure it out right. Driving me crazy now!

-droog

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by droog

]
Playing around with these I could't make 3.5:1 by volume come out to be close to 6:1 by molar ratio. I believe you're right and the two things are close, but somehow I can't figure it out right. Driving me crazy now!

I will post the math later tonight. They are not exact, but fairly close, especially when you consider that our measurement of how much acetic acid (percentage) is in nopox has significant error. We could do it with more precision, but I don't think there is too much point.

[MJNTWise]

So do we know exactly how much of each to do? 3.5 to 1 or is it 6 to 1? I will need to buy NoPox soon and i would like to thy this.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm certain the ratio is fairly unimportant, but going by post #48, if you mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water, you'll be pretty close. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water.

[MJNTWise]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I'm certain the ratio is fairly unimportant, but going by post #48, if you mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water, you'll be pretty close. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water.

Thanks Randy...Going to give it a try. How long you think it will last, Like how much should I mix up? I dose 6 ML a day of the NoPox.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you keep it closed, it won't go bad.

[shermanator]

Sorry for never posting the math, I took the week off to play with the kids and forgot about this thread. But Randy is correct, you'll be very close to NOPOX if you follow the recipe in post #48.

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I'm certain the ratio is fairly unimportant, but going by post #48, if you mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water, you'll be pretty close. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water.

[droog]

The recipe calls for 1:1 vinegar and 30% ethanol.

For regular vodka you could make up 1L to that ratio by mixing

Vokda: 375ml (50% abv, 80 proof)
RODI: 125ml
Vinegar: 500ml (5% acetic acid)

As Randy says, the ratio is probably not all that important.

The final dose I would expect to be similar to the 6ml you need now

-droog

[tmz]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I'm certain the ratio is fairly unimportant, but going by post #48, if you mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water, you'll be pretty close. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water.

Thanks. Randy Sheminator ,Droog. Friends of mine use NO3PO4X. Discussing the strength of organic doses we are using on our tanks will be easy now.

[rovster]

When you guys post your ratios, are you referring to your typical preparations of 5% acetic acid and 40% ethanol (vodka)??

I've been usin a mix of 1:8 grey goose:vinegar. It's a small tank so I just jacked some of my wifey's goose.

[droog]

I was referring to standard 5% vinegar and 40% vodka like grey goose, yes. I'd rather drink the goose than give it to my fish.

Your mix is skewed a lot more to vinegar than nopox does, but that's fine.

Randy tried to have his fish swim in vinegar and they seemed happy, just a few of the corals objected. He documents the experiments with vinegar elsewhere on this site.

-droog

[tmz]

I use 36ml of 80 proof vodkda (40%) to 80ml of viengar(5% acetic acid.) Roughly 1 part vodka to 2 parts vinegar,FWIW.

[luisagos]

80 proof vodka

I am not drinker, so I am clueless.
What brands are you guys using, maybe I will start drinking too, haha.

[SloppyWhenWet]

I just buy the cheapest.

[tmz]

I use Barton; $14 for 1.75 liters;plain distilled filtered type.

[dartier]

For the other spikes in the NMR that were unidentified impurities, any chance one might have been Iron?

I have noticed an increase in bacteria being grown in the reactor I carbon dose into when I dose iron directly into the reactor. I just checked my additive and it also contains manganese. Both of which are cited in bacteria growth in well water.

The following excerpt from some NO3PO4X advertising got me to thinking what they could be referring to. Emphasis added.

Among this complex there are also bonded ingredients that stimulate every step of the reduction process. With metal and non-metal elements a constant propagation of the bacteria is ensured as well as an absolute nitrate reduction to nitrogen gas.

If not Iron (and Manganese) , what other metals could bacteria be limited by?

Dennis

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Iron wouldn't show in an NMR, but a chelated iron would show protons from the chelating organic.

Iron could become limiting as it is already limiting to creatures both in the ocean (phytoplankton, for example) and in reef tanks (macroalgae, for example).

IMO, dosing iron is a fine experiment in any reef tank. I dose it regularly.

Many metals in our tanks are elevated above NSW levels already, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be limiting to rapidly growing bacteria eating dosed organics since those are not really simulating growth in the ocean, which might be much slower and allow more time for trace metal accumulation.

[tmz]

Glocose or some other sugar woudn't surprise me. Don't know if they would show up though.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by tmz

Glocose or some other sugar woudn't surprise me. Don't know if they would show up though.

Yes, anything with a proton will show up in the 1H-NMR. There is no glucose or other sugar in NOPOX.

And while Fe won't directly show in a 1H-NMR, I can tell you that there isn't any significant amount of iron in NOPOX. Iron is paramagnetic and will cause tremendous line broadening (due to increasing the T1 relaxation of the organic molecules) in a proton NMR (which is not seen in the spectrum my student took).

There could be trace Fe in NOPOX, but there is very little, if any.

[dartier]

Thanks for the clarification Shermanator.

Any chance there could be manganese in there?

Dennis

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by dartier

Thanks for the clarification Shermanator.

Any chance there could be manganese in there?

Dennis

Mn is also paramagnetic, so there isn't a lot of it in there. But how much would you expect there to be, if any?

I can tell you NOPOX doesn't have >1% Fe or Mn, but it could have ppm levels that wouldn't mess with the NMR.

Weak additional evidence for a lack of metals in NOPOX (in any appreciable amounts) is that NOPOX is a clear liquid. But again, if you are talking about ppm levels of metals, then it could be possible.

The best way to detect metals is via ICP. I do have access to an ICP, but I don't know how to use it. If I can think of a reason (one related to my lab's work) to make my students learn how to use the instrument, I'll also have them run the NOPOX sample. But that isn't likely...

[dartier]

Thanks shermanator. I was just going on a hunch, trying to relate Red Sea's marketing material to reality, and thought since Iron and Manganese oxidizing bacteria are a common problem in well water scenarios, that there may be parallels in the marine world.

Off topic, but the yesterday I was watching a program on the search for the cause of autism in children, and in it they were analysing the urine of autistic children with an NMR. It was neat to see something being discussed on here being used in the field , so to speak.

Dennis

[JoshuaG]

Anyone want to help with a plan of attack for handling my nitrates and phosphates? No3 is 100+ppm and phosphate are 1.0-1.5ppm with Salifert kits.

330G of water and the tank is a year old, 35 fish so feeding very heavy. It was a FOWLR but have added corals in the last few months. Mushrooms and zoas and gorgs all doing great, SPS not so much lol.

I have been dosing 40ml a day of NoPox for two weeks now without any change. No noticeable bacteria blooms, did find a small patch of white fluffy stuff growing in sump right where I dose but that is about it, nothing in display.

Anyone think I should increase the daily ML or just keep at this a few more weeks? I am skimming wet and have a huge skimmer FYI.

[bertoni]

That's a very heavy fish load, and I'm not sure what can be done. The fish should be fine with the nitrate and phosphate, though, so you could ignore the levels. Soft corals probably would be fine, too, although the coloration might be a bit brown.