can you help me go skimmerless?

[skyshrimp]

yea before my scrubber I noticed that if I overfed my tank hair algae would take off in days but now with my ats I've been feed a bunches more(flakes, mysis, krill, etc). the gha is receding came back home just now from work and I can notice even more gha receding and turning pale. screen is getting powder green with gha strings now. wish I can post pcics through my phone some way but cant figure it out.

[frankpayne32]

Originally Posted by srusso

The MH is on right now... So the colors aren't popping right now.
How's that for pudding? Also check out my photo album. My tank is 6 months old so my corals are still just frags and are hard to see in this picture.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think you would agree that six months is far too short a time to claim success for ANY method of tank maintenance. While there is certainly nothing wrong with your tank, I personally am striving for something of higher quality (no offense meant). My own goal is to strive for a TOTM quality tank and I have yet to see a tank of that quality and longevity without a protein skimmer. I am certainly open to the idea that it is possible I just haven't seen an example yet. Again, thanks for taking the time to post a picture of your tank. Would anyone else running an ATS sans protein skimmer post pics of your tank please? I am especially interested in tanks doing it for at least a reasonable length of time (at minimum a year and preferably longer).

[frankpayne32]

Originally Posted by Nexenn

what type of algae grows on the ATS? is it a hair algae? I've got a 90 gallon SPS tank with a 30 gallon sump broken into a skimmer area, frag tank (lit by halide) and a fuge section with chaeto lit by a spiral bulb. It works awesome, I pull over a softball sized thing of chaeto out each week. My problem is that ive got some hair algae growing. It grows all over my frag tank area, all over the frags, some on the chaeto ball and a little bit in the display. I run GFO too. Just wondering if I added a ATS would it reduce some of the hair algae?

It is supposed to be turf algae. Which is a type of algae that grows very quickly and incorporates alot of nutrients as it grows.

[srusso]

Originally Posted by frankpayne32

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think you would agree that six months is far too short a time to claim success for ANY method of tank maintenance. While there is certainly nothing wrong with your tank, I personally am striving for something of higher quality (no offense meant). My own goal is to strive for a TOTM quality tank and I have yet to see a tank of that quality and longevity without a protein skimmer. I am certainly open to the idea that it is possible I just haven't seen an example yet. Again, thanks for taking the time to post a picture of your tank. Would anyone else running an ATS sans protein skimmer post pics of your tank please? I am especially interested in tanks doing it for at least a reasonable length of time (at minimum a year and preferably longer).

I understand the age of my tank will not conclude that I have successfully run a tank without a skimmer. However SantaMonica on algae scrubber net will truly answer this question straight away.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=91

Also here are videos of his tank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUl8FIQAxr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58pOisX2vSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDZtHf-xXCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMdllQSKU2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtvF0ZbVX7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOIx09XWYCo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7TnVm19td4

[srusso]

Originally Posted by frankpayne32

It is supposed to be turf algae. Which is a type of algae that grows very quickly and incorporates alot of nutrients as it grows.

My findings as well as others show that only once a scrubber screen has matured does actual "turf algae" take hold and began to grow as you described.
From memory I believe this to be true because turf algae needs to take root on your screen before it will flourish, and grow. (again as you described)

[frankpayne32]

He does have a pretty nice looking tank. One of these days I'm going to try to incorporate one into my filtration set up.

[zangmann]

Originally Posted by frankpayne32

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think you would agree that six months is far too short a time to claim success for ANY method of tank maintenance. While there is certainly nothing wrong with your tank, I personally am striving for something of higher quality (no offense meant). My own goal is to strive for a TOTM quality tank and I have yet to see a tank of that quality and longevity without a protein skimmer. I am certainly open to the idea that it is possible I just haven't seen an example yet. Again, thanks for taking the time to post a picture of your tank. Would anyone else running an ATS sans protein skimmer post pics of your tank please? I am especially interested in tanks doing it for at least a reasonable length of time (at minimum a year and preferably longer).

After running an ATS for about 18+ months I have decided to run a skimmer on my upcoming 150g build. I was just not seeing the TOTM results I was looking for. The ATS is extremely effective as lowering p04 and nitrates, I consistantly test unmeasurable on both (Salifert). I also ran several months without water changes, no problem. Feed a ton, no algae in the display tank.

However, something is missing. I was just not seeing the same growth out of my SPS as I wished. Users with skimmers posting growth pics for a period of a few months were showing more growth than I was in six.

I am by no means any sort of professional but have decided to go a different route in my future tank, who knows I may just switch back.

[srusso]

Zangmann, Could you please describe you ATS setup?

[frankpayne32]

Originally Posted by zangmann

After running an ATS for about 18+ months I have decided to run a skimmer on my upcoming 150g build. I was just not seeing the TOTM results I was looking for. The ATS is extremely effective as lowering p04 and nitrates, I consistantly test unmeasurable on both (Salifert). I also ran several months without water changes, no problem. Feed a ton, no algae in the display tank.

However, something is missing. I was just not seeing the same growth out of my SPS as I wished. Users with skimmers posting growth pics for a period of a few months were showing more growth than I was in six.

I am by no means any sort of professional but have decided to go a different route in my future tank, who knows I may just switch back.

I would bet that while the turf algae uptakes a lot of phosphate and nitrate it does not remove everything the skimmer does (which some would see as a benefit). A skimmer removes other chemical species besides nitrate and phosphate that naturally accumulate in aquaria over time while the turf algae do not. That is the main reason why I think ATS are a great tool in water quality maintenance but are not a "cure-all" solution. Just one of the many ways to treat water. An ideal water quality solution would include mechanical, chemical, and biological filtration. Each are beneficial and are not mutually exclusive.

[zangmann]

Originally Posted by srusso

Zangmann, Could you please describe you ATS setup?

2x needlepoint sheets from the craft store (10"x13" i think?)
4x 42w CFL changed every 3-4 months. Always wanted to do a LED setup, still may

Lights are on 18 hours and off 6.
55 gallon tank, 1" drain into sump. QuietOne 3000 (780gph) for the return.

Like I said everything is working fine, tons of pods everywhere. Red turf grows EVERYWHERE in my sump, have to clean it constantly.

Just not getting the SPS growth I'm looking for. Chemistry is stable.

[zangmann]

Originally Posted by frankpayne32

I would bet that while the turf algae uptakes a lot of phosphate and nitrate it does not remove everything the skimmer does (which some would see as a benefit). A skimmer removes other chemical species besides nitrate and phosphate that naturally accumulate in aquaria over time while the turf algae do not. That is the main reason why I think ATS are a great tool in water quality maintenance but are not a "cure-all" solution. Just one of the many ways to treat water. An ideal water quality solution would include mechanical, chemical, and biological filtration. Each are beneficial and are not mutually exclusive.

I agree, if my skimmer can't keep up I may plumb a T for an ATS.

[srusso]

Originally Posted by zangmann

2x needlepoint sheets from the craft store (10"x13" i think?)
4x 42w CFL changed every 3-4 months. Always wanted to do a LED setup, still may

Lights are on 18 hours and off 6.
55 gallon tank, 1" drain into sump. QuietOne 3000 (780gph) for the return.

Like I said everything is working fine, tons of pods everywhere. Red turf grows EVERYWHERE in my sump, have to clean it constantly.

Just not getting the SPS growth I'm looking for. Chemistry is stable.

A 10x13 screen means your screen is rated for a 130 gallon tank! Thats almost 2.5 times the size you need. I would say one of the reason your SPS may be growing slowly is that your need to heavily feed your corals.

[zangmann]

Originally Posted by srusso

A 10x13 screen means your screen is rated for a 130 gallon tank! Thats almost 2.5 times the size you need. I would say one of the reason your SPS may be growing slowly is that your need to heavily feed your corals.

I was feeding once a day with 6 fish in a 55 gallon.
My 2.5" yellow tang pooping everywhere! Pretty sure the corals were fed, could be something to look at though.

[srusso]

Originally Posted by zangmann

I was feeding once a day with 6 fish in a 55 gallon.
My 2.5" yellow tang pooping everywhere! Pretty sure the corals were fed, could be something to look at though.

I mean more a long the lines of coral food, not fish food

[zangmann]

Originally Posted by srusso

I mean more a long the lines of coral food, not fish food

Poop is coral food! I'm not really trying to argue here, just saying the ATS in MY situation was not working. The fish are happy, the tank is healthy. I just don't think that an ATS has the potential to be the lone source of filtration in a predominately SPS system.

[srusso]

Originally Posted by zangmann

Poop is coral food! I'm not really trying to argue here, just saying the ATS in MY situation was not working. The fish are happy, the tank is healthy. I just don't think that an ATS has the potential to be the lone source of filtration in a predominately SPS system.

Sorry if you thought I was arguing, I meant no harm. Just was a suggestion. Talking through text has no inflection, this is my fault and sometimes I should compensate for that. Take a look at SantaMonica's take can show that it can be done. However you are entitled to your own opinion, and if you feel that it doesn't work for you then by all means, do what works for you.

[syrinx]

I think if you are going for tank of the month and want to go skimmerless-nano would be the way to go. Generally for a off the hook TOTM or crazy sps tank you need a good skimmer. That relagates the ATS to the same purpose a cheato-and its not worth the work. However if someone wants a nice tank- it can be done with ATS-or with cheato-or a skimmer- or any combination of these things and others. I personally don`t have tanks like i used to when I had the TOTM mentality. I am more into the natural look- and having growth be self limiting to the situation. I am tired of fragging and moving stuff- I am happy to just have a chunk of reef to look at and not care. I do think its bad form to harsh on anybodys tank though-and I thought it was really big of the picture poster not to take offnse.

[LPS_Blasto]

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

So it seems that most here are either or on which way to go.

Does anyone run both?

I currently run both.

After using both I've come to the conclusion that I'd never run a reef tank without a scrubber. But I would run a reef without a skimmer. I could only have one, I'd pick the scrubber, no contest.

Don't get my wrong, I'm not part of the "anti-skimmer" crowd. I use a skimmer. I've been running some form of protein skimmer for over 2 decades. I had one back in 1985 when all they were was a wooden airstone and a poorly designed venturi. I just won't rely on ONLY the skimmer anymore. I'll always have a simple turf scrubber on any reef that I have.

[zangmann]

Originally Posted by srusso

Sorry if you thought I was arguing, I meant no harm. Just was a suggestion. Talking through text has no inflection, this is my fault and sometimes I should compensate for that. Take a look at SantaMonica's take can show that it can be done. However you are entitled to your own opinion, and if you feel that it doesn't work for you then by all means, do what works for you.

I didn't, you're fine. SM does have a nice tank. However, I haven't seen any recent pictures of his tank, the ones I've seen are a few years old. Haven't seen any growth comparison pictures. This is what I'm most interested in.

He says:

The main thing to mention is that this tank is not for showing... it is for experimenting.

Maybe if someone set up an ATS tank with the intention of creating a TOTM and was successful, it would give the ATS crowd a huge boost. I have yet to see these results in my own tank. Not saying it not possible, just that I haven't seen results.

I have no problem maintaining my tank and corals, want I want is great GROWTH. Unfortunately I don't think an ATS only system can give me that.

[syrinx]

I think inland aquatics has some display tanks that could be TOTM- see if you can find pics. You need to remember, even though this is a big site- it comprises a very small % of the reef keeping population. The whole point to them using the system is growth- and they do it very well. As I said- I am not a advocate of ATS- I used to argue with the inventor about it frequently-but it can work.

[srusso]

I just realized that I never posted my last harvest! First time measuring, came out to ONE CUP!



It would have been much more but it was very hard to collect the harvest into a measuring cup.

[Mandragen]

Originally Posted by LPS_Blasto

I currently run both.

After using both I've come to the conclusion that I'd never run a reef tank without a scrubber. But I would run a reef without a skimmer. I could only have one, I'd pick the scrubber, no contest.

Don't get my wrong, I'm not part of the "anti-skimmer" crowd. I use a skimmer. I've been running some form of protein skimmer for over 2 decades. I had one back in 1985 when all they were was a wooden airstone and a poorly designed venturi. I just won't rely on ONLY the skimmer anymore. I'll always have a simple turf scrubber on any reef that I have.

What size scrubber do you use to compensate for already having a skimmer?

[mrbncal]

I want to show my support for ATS's. When I set this 75 back up 4 years ago I battled with my EUROREEF skimmer for 7-8 months. Every couple of weeks it would go into overflow mode for a couple days and flow teh skimmate back into the tank. Things looked horrible every time it would overflow. Just got sick of dealing with it. I unplugged it and let the tank go. Three months with no attention. Almost tore it down. 90 days later when I scrubbed the front glass I was surprised to find that things had gotten better since turning off the skimmer. So i left it like that for about a year and a half. But hair and bubble algae had a serious foothold. I couldnt feed much. Then I read the articles on ATS's and eventually decided to try one. So I built a bucket scrubber and haven't looked back.

Is it tank of the month material? No. But my maintenance time is a lot less than those guys also. I still have great growth on corals and most important I enjoy the hobby again.

My only source of cal/alk is kalk in the top-off water and I run a bag of chemipure hanging in the sump. I have not changed any water since June of 2010(30 gal). (I had a hot day prior to hooking my chiller up and things got a little soupy, stupid gamble and I lost a few corals).

I have been running ats since Nov/Dec 2009. Anemones, tubeworms of all types(cocoworms), photosynth gorgs and LPS as well as green slimer and birdnest, pocillipora have all grown very well. These fotos are about 4 months ago. Will try to get some newer ones if you guys want. The slimer in teh upper left is much bigger now.

[srusso]

Your eating a lot of humble pie!! Your tank looks fanastic!

Thank you for posting, this should help others have some confidence with long term success using an Algae Turf Srcubber. Please share your setup with us all. I understand your just running a bucket scrubber, but a picture is worth a thousand words, right?

Some more pictures of your tank couldn't hurt!...

[Big E]

Those bubble tip nems are sweet..........if people find out they keep their bubbles in ATS systems, this type of filtration will explode in popularity.