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Unread 05/14/2013, 01:22 PM   #326
Floyd R Turbo
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1) I think it's safe to dose kalk when your scrubber light is on.

2) Whatever works best. Generally, I recommend the split photoperiod if you are starting up a scrubber and having trouble getting algae to start growing. This is usually only a problem when running a powerful / dense LED array where you start to get photosynthetic saturation when you don't have much algae. Once you get a lot of growth, this is less of a factor (and you can combine the photoperiods into one). So far I have seen no one report a measurable long-term benefit for having multiple shorter photoperiods, aside from not burning algae as described above.


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Unread 06/08/2013, 11:04 PM   #327
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One thing to consider the screens your using are NOT UV stable, only the black screens are, so I wouldn't bombard them with UV lighting.

I finally found a source for PPE screens in roll form, replacing the heavy fiberglass screening, Some time early this week we should get the 10 feet of screening installed in to the system, and see how it goes. If it all goes well I will let everyone know where to buy the screening.

I will also update if Co2 in the grow chamber increases the growth any


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Unread 06/08/2013, 11:12 PM   #328
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Also might want to note that everyone should monitor their ph, with the scrubber on, we are at 8.6 ph, so I can dose for the co2 reactor, when the scrubber is off I can dose from the kalk reactor.

Floyd, it is a misconception that a ATS isn't working when filling, it is, but not at the same level of efficiency when it is dumping.


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Unread 06/08/2013, 11:32 PM   #329
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To confirm, your findings suggest that it would better to dose kalk while lights are off? That was what I had thought was suggested.


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Unread 06/09/2013, 07:35 AM   #330
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Only so that my ph does not rise any more that the almost fixed 8.6 readings. But keep in mind this is a vary large system, it utilizes 3360 sq inches of screening X 2 = 6720 sq inches powered by 14 panels of led lights.


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Unread 06/09/2013, 09:18 AM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyreefer View Post
One thing to consider the screens your using are NOT UV stable, only the black screens are, so I wouldn't bombard them with UV lighting.
Good to know, thanks for sharing. So if one would shine UV on a non-UV stabilized screen, what could happen to the material?

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I finally found a source for PPE screens in roll form, replacing the heavy fiberglass screening, Some time early this week we should get the 10 feet of screening installed in to the system, and see how it goes. If it all goes well I will let everyone know where to buy the screening.
Do you mean the knitting canvas in roll form? This stuff is actually linear low density polyethylene, commonly called LLDPE. I had to look up "PPE" and I'm not sure that's the same stuff, if it is actually "PPE"

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Floyd, it is a misconception that a ATS isn't working when filling, it is, but not at the same level of efficiency when it is dumping.
That's what I meant - the efficiency is much lower. With your huge scrubber, it takes a long time to fill, IMO that makes a big difference. But someone else is doing the same thing on a much smaller unit (1 gallon) and it seems to work pretty well


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Unread 06/09/2013, 09:25 PM   #332
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The scrubber is a large waterfall type, not submerged. PPE is starboard material, PPE has good UV protection, and tensile strength, UV does affects it by dulling and fading of color, or yellowing. LLDPE has a low tensile strength, and is affected by UV, Warm water, and resulting in Hydrolization. The last effect is a process of the resins converting back into ethanol. I have experienced this first hand, and the process turns plastic into a gel that smells like acetone. This process is common on sail boats, but it affects all LLDPE plastics the same way. I would not classify LLDPE reef safe.


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Unread 06/09/2013, 09:29 PM   #333
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People have been using plastic canvas for literally decades. You're telling me that they're all running material that is not reef safe?


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Unread 06/09/2013, 10:15 PM   #334
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Sorry Floyd, yes I am.. No, this isn't meant to attack your work. But unfortunately not all plastics are not meant to be bombarded with light, UV or even submerged under water. Plastics degrade, some in decades, other in matter of months. Warm Salt Water has a strange effect on plastics that I never knew about until I had to
50k to repair the hydrolization of the top sides, I began to research it and properties that lead to it. I didn't expect to find that it was common, but unfortunately it was and it made me research other plastics I use on the tank. I have found that PPE more or less is safe but LLDPE isn't. The effect on a sail boat is easy to detect, it's painted surface encapsulates the resins, and is easy to see the negative results, it isn't easy to detect when its not covered by a barrier that traps the deteriorating plastics. But make no mistake the same process is happening, just it entering into the water column.


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Unread 06/09/2013, 11:01 PM   #335
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I didn't consider it a personal attack, because I'm not the one that first suggested using it. I would have to check but I'm pretty sure that thus stuff has been used as far back as Dr Adey. I know that Inland Aquatics uses it because I've ordered seeded screen sections from them. So I really don't think there is a whole lot to worry about, honestly.


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Unread 06/10/2013, 05:19 AM   #336
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We used inferior glues/sealant, 30 years ago too, some people still use the metal frame tanks, I wouldn't. Plastics are changing due to landfill issues, additive are incorporated so that they will break down in a land fill. The plastic that was used years ago isn't the same as the plastics used now, looks the same, but different in composition and production. Quality control has changes in the last decade, a product that would last is now produced with inconsistencys, along with unstabilized production methods.

I am well aware of inland's setup, over great scotch I got to know Morgan, I can't disagree his system works. But as time changes so is the materials he is using, now the system is also changing, lighting is much more intense and focused in narrower spectrum, even the process is changing, allowing the screens to hang and cleaning them daily changes the exposure and thus changes how fast they degrade.

People still make and use plywood tanks, Epoxy coated. Not once did they take into account that the dried resins would turn back into liquid form. Now a 12x12 screen isn't the same as a whole tank made of resin, but it still leaches. You don't get a lot of UV light up there in IA, but if you were on a tropical island you would see first hand what the sun does, we are multiplying this effect with new lighting. I was badly burned and suffered temporary loss of vision wile working under my light last week, it only took 10 min. I forgot to tun them off when I was moving some rocks, hard lesson to learn.

I found a PPE screen provider, It is much safer to use, but testing still needs to be done to be sure if its will work for me.


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Unread 06/11/2013, 04:09 AM   #337
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The black screen from Inland is UV safe, that is my understanding. It is not the craft store white stuff. Inland uses the black two ply stuff.


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Unread 06/11/2013, 05:46 AM   #338
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Quote:
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People still make and use plywood tanks, Epoxy coated. Not once did they take into account that the dried resins would turn back into liquid form. .
Not saying it aint so, but that's news to me. Is this akin to the, the sun will die out some day, type statement? In other words, the kind of thing that does not matter in a human's lifespan. It's my understanding that the resin does not dry, it cures.

I've heard of epoxy tanks running for decades.


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Unread 06/11/2013, 06:07 AM   #339
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UV will make some plastic brittle and yellow. It becomes unstable. The plastic egg crate people use for lids and under LR is a good example. Under UV producing light it will deteriorate within a year. I've had several pieces under LED and they look new compared to the stuff under UV producing light.


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Unread 06/11/2013, 07:38 AM   #340
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Quote:
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UV will make some plastic brittle and yellow. It becomes unstable. The plastic egg crate people use for lids and under LR is a good example. Under UV producing light it will deteriorate within a year. I've had several pieces under LED and they look new compared to the stuff under UV producing light.
I think the key here, is the UV light causing degradation in the plastic. LDPE is rated as "Excellent" for seawater http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

Luckily, we push towards the red spectrum (if not exactly red) with most of the lighting for these turf scrubbers, so UV should be minimal, being on the opposite side of the visible spectrum.


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Unread 06/11/2013, 11:26 PM   #341
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It doesn't even take light just warm sea water, no, not in a life time, some plastics only yellow, become brittle, others revert into liquid, noticeable?, but all the same still leaching. I saw the post that someone was adding UV lighting to it... well lets just speed up the reaction time 1000 fold... I know many people will tell you an epoxy tank is ok... hell I'm not here to argue... do what you like... but be informed and read white pages... or even go to a boat yard... Its science, its not anecdotal...

Yes PPE in black is stable even in water, but clear PPE isn't, If that what they are using, two ply? doesn't sound like PPE but PPE is still reef safe even in clear, it just doesn't have the same stability for yellowing and brittling as black does. Life time... hmmm... I have seen hydrolization an a matter of a year, it significantly speeds up with the following conditions,(they don't all need to be present, but multiple factors speeds up the process). immersion or constant contact with water, High or low PH, UV radiation, Temperature above 75 degrees. Water being the key factor with the others as a contributing factor for the failure.

Cole palmer research is a bit misleading, yes its sea water safe, for 48hr...but not safe against hydrolisation, which makes it not reef safe in the long run.. Now not all LLDPE will products surcome to this, just as not all fiberglass boats don[t all turn to jelly and sink... but most unprotected boats will suffer major damage due to it.


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Unread 06/12/2013, 09:48 AM   #342
Floyd R Turbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyreefer View Post
I saw the post that someone was adding UV lighting to it... well lets just speed up the reaction time 1000 fold...
That is definitely worth noting. Anyone experimenting with UV should probably use PPE. Thanks to CR I'm looking into this material as well.

What about 422.5nm True Violet? (from Steve's LEDs) I think that has some UV in it. Probably not as much as a more true UV lamp, whether that is fluorescent or LED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyreefer View Post
Yes PPE in black is stable even in water, but clear PPE isn't, If that what they are using, two ply? doesn't sound like PPE but PPE is still reef safe even in clear, it just doesn't have the same stability for yellowing and brittling as black does.
Did you mean LLDPE instead of PPE in the 2 spots above? I think so...just clarifying.

As far as yellowing and brittling goes, one could argue that this isn't an issue on their screens, however, the flipside is

1) not many have been running scrubbers (waterfall) for more than a few years, so how would they know

2) most have enough growth that they don't see their screens, as they are covered with algae (which may be protecting the material to a certain extent)

3) in order to truly see if there is yellowing/brittling, one would have to clean the screen down bare (bleach, scrubbing, etc)

heck even I haven't used the same screen for more than 18 months. When I switched to the smaller LED scrubber, I threw out the old screen. Can't recall what condition it was in, but it wasn't horrible or anything (under T5HO)

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Life time... hmmm... I have seen hydrolization an a matter of a year, it significantly speeds up with the following conditions,(they don't all need to be present, but multiple factors speeds up the process). immersion or constant contact with water, High or low PH, UV radiation, Temperature above 75 degrees. Water being the key factor with the others as a contributing factor for the failure.
...which are all the conditions we are in. I think it's worth consideration for the long term of the device. Anything that could be construed as not being reef safe might not cause a problem in the majority of tanks, but could cause a problem in someone's tank at some point, although it might be difficult to point to the screen material as a culprit, having that out of the equation would be good overall.

Quote:
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Now not all LLDPE will products surcome to this, just as not all fiberglass boats don[t all turn to jelly and sink... but most unprotected boats will suffer major damage due to it.
So this particular LLDPE product may not have a problem at all, is that what you're saying? Is there any way to test the material to find out?

As far as breakdown and leeching goes, with both screens and plywood tanks as you mentioned, wouldn't any leeched substances be taken out of the water column if one used activated carbon or some other widely used means of filtration?


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Unread 06/12/2013, 10:34 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyreefer View Post
Yes PPE in black is stable even in water, but clear PPE isn't.
The black is the UV-stabilizer, so this makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyreefer View Post
Cole palmer research is a bit misleading, yes its sea water safe, for 48hr...but not safe against hydrolisation, which makes it not reef safe in the long run..
I have yet to find a compatibility chart that lists seawater as incompatible with LDPE or PE.... Not to say they don't exist, but from the dozen or so i looked at, they all listed seawater as the highest compatibility.

LDPE Nalgene bottles are also the preferred bottle type for many types of analytical sampling, or chemical storage, due to their inherent chemical stability.

White/clear LDPE should be relatively stable in an aquarium (without UV). The pH is only ~8 (neutral is 7,) and temperature around 26C. It is approved as food grade packaging material for a wide variety of acidic and basic foods, and is dishwasher safe. This is the same material that tupperware is made out of.

LLDPE, LDPE, HDPE are different beasts.
The screen material commonly used is LDPE, not LLDPE right? LDPE is "4" for the recycling number that is printed on many plastics.


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Unread 06/12/2013, 11:16 AM   #344
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Darice #7 mesh is LLDPE

Quote:
Thank you for your interest in Darice products. Item 33900-1 is made of linear low density polyethylene, commonly called LLDPE. I hope this information helps you.

Best regards,

M.P. Catan
Director of Product Compliance
Darice Inc./Lamrite West
13000 Darice Pkwy.
Strongsville, OH. 44149
Direct Dial: (440) 878-3550



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Unread 06/12/2013, 01:09 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
Darice #7 mesh is LLDPE
Good to know... Time to switch research mode to LLDPE.

I personally haven't used the Darice mesh, and i think the screen i have may be PPE (had a couple rolls laying around.)

Plastic type may have an influence the initial growth on the screen, as the surface textures, or mold-release waxes may be different. Would be interesting to compare algae growth and adhesion between plastic types.


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Unread 06/12/2013, 01:15 PM   #346
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You're the second person to mention mold-release wax, the first being Santa Monica. I put mesh under a microscope before cleaning (off the shelf) as well as after boiling a screen for several minutes (which did not result in a wax being released from the screen, even when cool, there was no wax coagulation). I even bleached and scrubbed a screen. No difference. So at least the Darice stuff does not have any significant amount of mold release wax.


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Unread 06/12/2013, 06:18 PM   #347
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Didn't think of the release, but its is extruded (I believe) and food safe... so I am hoping its also doesn't have wax or oils for release... and as you see the many production variations that can and do exist, methods will change from manufacture to manufacture based on cost cutting in china. I can ask the manufacture of the release method,but it will be the desired manufacturing method, not the current method. but If we can't get a straight answer on baby food and dog food, do you really think we will get a straight answer on plastic netting?

Wow.. I reading what I write... and I'm more than a skeptic...

I'm sending Floyd a bunch of it that didn't work for my purpose, Not that it was not the right stuff, it just wouldn't work on my machine due to stiffness issues. Acroman was correct, the black gives it the UV protection, but to my thinking, white or clear allows the light to reach through the algae mat and help it grow... (not researched) but the degradation, was only yellowing and brittlement, at which point its a sign to replace the screen.

As for skimmer, carbon or other filtration removing the breaking down of plastic.... don't know, I know the skimmer goes crazy when you use glue or epoxy in the tank, again no research, and no one has yet to figure out if all those glued/epoxy plugs are not breaking down also... again no research... The only research done is because its big business protecting boats. Some research is done due to waste management, again a big business, and green recycling.... yet another highly profitable business model.... Yes we complain that we spend our paychecks on our tanks, but it still doesn't add up to one day of garbage collection fees assessed to every home and business... So no one is going to spend millions of dollars to test plastics for a reef environment.

I'm with Floyd on the thinking when a tank crashes, don't be the one to blame... don't need another DSB finger pointing flame war... unlike skimmers, this is a product that has the potential revolutionizes the way we buffer our PH and filter water for both fresh and salt water aquariums.


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Unread 09/26/2013, 06:15 AM   #348
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Thought I would put a video up of my scrubber for discussion, if anyone is interested;

http://youtu.be/5UDi2okBGYM


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Unread 09/27/2013, 03:32 AM   #349
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How about some details?


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Unread 09/27/2013, 02:29 PM   #350
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It's a fully submerged, wave augmented horizontal scrubber. I started off doing experiments with surge devices and growing algae inside them maybe 5 months ago, and got growth rates in excess of my waterfall;

This is the growth I had on my waterfall;



This is my small surge device that took a couple of months to fully mature;



Now after successful testing, I have put a simple large 13x10 (old waterfall screen) horizontally in my sump. It was initially "surged" with the small surge device pictured above. Growth was good but not brilliant;






If you look closely at the screen, you can see trapped photosynthetic oxygen (bubbles). To me, that indicates inadequate flow. So I changed from the surge device to a DIY wave maker (pump directed straight up to the sump surface).

Now, growth seems to be increased;



And without bubbles;


Over the next few months I expect further improvement and will be documenting it.


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