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Old 07/17/2019, 09:14 PM   #1
HumbleFish
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Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

*** The information contained here is only EXPERIMENTAL at the moment. Use at your own risk!!! ***


So, I wanted to start a discussing regarding the use of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) in conjunction with Tank Transfer Method. For those who may not be familiar with TTM read this: Tank Transfer Method


TTM is an effective (non-chemical) treatment for Marine Ich; however the weakness has always been its inability to eradicate other external parasites/worms such as Velvet, brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians. What if combining TTM with H2O2 could widen the spectrum of treatment??


In this field trial, a single treatment with 75 mg/L hydrogen peroxide greatly reduced levels of Amyloodinium (velvet) infestation, and a second treatment 6 days later reduced Amyloodinium trophonts to a nondetectable level: The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis


IME; any chemical (e.g. formalin, acriflavine) capable of removing Velvet trophonts right on a fish is also capable of killing "surface" parasites & worms such as brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians (Black Ich). So I am theorizing that a "Hybrid TTM" using H2O2 could eliminate most external parasites/worms by following this protocol:


Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 4), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 75ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide


Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.


Day 7 – Repeat. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 10), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 75ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide


Day 10 – Repeat.


Day 13 – Repeat and done (fish should now be parasite & worm free!!!)


^^ Please note that H2O2 is only dosed twice, 6 days apart and for a maximum of 30 minutes. This is to ensure all velvet trophonts have been eliminated and also lines up for worms that need to be treated a second time due to hatchlings. Everything else about doing TTM stays exactly the same!


Will this work?? I honestly don't know. The science behind it is sound and everything lines up, but it needs to be thoroughly tested before going mainstream. Since starting my business, I'm finding myself with less & less time to experiment so I'm hoping some of you will pick up my slack.


Why TTM is still needed with H2O2: IMO; it is unlikely that H2O2 can penetrate through a fish's epithelium (outer skin layer) to reach Ich trophonts. Eliminating "surface" parasites & worms is a more realistic expectation. So, TTM is still needed to prophylactically address the possibility of Ich!


Other thoughts/concerns:
  • Avoid using H2O2 on fish with an open wound or obvious infection. Although H2O2 is an antiseptic, it has been found to slow the healing process and possibly worsen scarring by killing the healthy cells surrounding a cut.
  • It is only reasonable to assume that H2O2 treats parasites/worms on the outside of a fish. Internal parasites & worms will need to be treated separately: Internal Issues
  • Post treatment, it is always wise to observe the fish in a non-medicated observation tank. This applies whether you are utilizing Traditional TTM or Hybrid TTM, to ensure treatment was successful. Using black mollies in this observation tank can help ensure no diseases are still present: Black Molly Quarantine



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Old 07/17/2019, 09:20 PM   #2
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^^ Just wanted to point out that there's no reason why 45 mins in formalin couldn't be used in lieu of H2O2: Formalin (use the bath treatment dosage)


45 minutes in formalin has the same killing effect on surface parasites/worms, and you can continue to run filtration/pumps with it in the water. However, it must be proper formalin (37% formaldehyde) for consistency. The main drawback to using formalin is it is a known carcinogen.


Everything stays the same as above, just do a 45 min formalin bath instead of a 30 min H2O2 bath prior to transferring. (I know many hobbyists already doing this with success.)


Further reading on using formalin to control fish parasites: http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013...-Parasites.pdf


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Old 07/23/2019, 04:57 PM   #3
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I'm not sure if a short bath is capable of eliminating all "surface" parasites.
On my Ventralis Anthias I've seen Capsalidae (skin flukes) take shelter under the fish's scales while the fish was in a freshwater bath. Even after 30 minutes they were still alive and well. You would need to have something that can reach them there or treat long enough since they can't hide there forever.

But even if it would just eliminate Amyloodinium in addition to Uronema, Brooklynella, Trichodina, and the like in the same swoop it would be well worth the extra effort.


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Old 07/24/2019, 10:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
I'm not sure if a short bath is capable of eliminating all "surface" parasites.
On my Ventralis Anthias I've seen Capsalidae (skin flukes) take shelter under the fish's scales while the fish was in a freshwater bath. Even after 30 minutes they were still alive and well. You would need to have something that can reach them there or treat long enough since they can't hide there forever.
This might explain why I'm seeing more & more instances of "prazi resistant flukes" in my well-established QTs: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4824874/


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Old 07/24/2019, 04:56 PM   #5
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This might explain why I'm seeing more & more instances of "prazi resistant flukes" in my well-established QTs: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4824874/
Interesting article!
So it's rather the prazi being degraded by bacteria than the "flukes" becoming resistant. Based on this, praz treatment is best administered during TTM with sterile containers and fresh saltwater.
BTW, the same seems to apply to CP which also seems to be degraded by certain bacteria.

Hyposalinity treatment, as done against Cryptocaryon, should also put an end to most, if not all, flukes found on reef fish.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 07/24/2019, 10:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
Interesting article!
So it's rather the prazi being degraded by bacteria than the "flukes" becoming resistant. Based on this, praz treatment is best administered during TTM with sterile containers and fresh saltwater.
BTW, the same seems to apply to CP which also seems to be degraded by certain bacteria.

Hyposalinity treatment, as done against Cryptocaryon, should also put an end to most, if not all, flukes found on reef fish.
Yes, bacteria (esp. biofilm) is the enemy of all medications (except copper). And it's logical to assume that the longer a QT is setup, the more bacteria will be found therein. Which is why I have to periodically bleach all my QTs.

Fenbendazole is another great dewormer: https://humble.fish/fenbendazole/


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Old 07/25/2019, 10:26 AM   #7
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I would think, due to this, it makes a lot of sense to have separate, sterile treatment tanks aside from the QT/acclimatization tanks.

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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 07/27/2019, 10:04 AM   #8
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I’ve used copper, kanaplex and metroplex as a cure for all at the same time without any problems.


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Old 07/28/2019, 07:27 PM   #9
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I've been trying this out on a Powder Blue! Will update as I continue. So far both baths have not fazed Tang at all.


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Old 08/03/2019, 03:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleFish View Post
Formalin => "There is anecdotal evidence (but never scientifically proven) that some fish exposed to formalin don’t live past 18-24 months."
I would think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I personally have a good number of fish that were treated with formalin and most of them are way past that deadline, some for several years.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 08/03/2019, 01:12 PM   #11
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I would think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I personally have a good number of fish that were treated with formalin and most of them are way past that deadline, some for several years.
Interesting. What % of formaldehyde and how long/how many baths were used??


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Old 08/04/2019, 04:52 AM   #12
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Interesting. What % of formaldehyde and how long/how many baths were used??
FishVet Formalin MS, 20 drops/gal, one 45-50 min bath generally.

I would consider the idea that formalin baths kill fish with a 2-year delay as one of the many false believes and rumors in the hobby. Public aquaria use formalin baths for decades and if there would be anything to it that formalin might be cutting the lifespan of fish this drastically short they would have noticed and reported it.

I would be more concerned with Malachite Green which has been found to be quite harmful to fish:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...66445X03002169
"Abstract:
This review summarises the wide range of toxicological effects of malachite green (MG), a triarylmethane dye on various fish species and certain mammals. MG is widely used in aquaculture as a parasiticide and in food, health, textile and other industries for one or the other purposes. It controls fungal attacks, protozoan infections and some other diseases caused by helminths on a wide variety of fish and other aquatic organisms. However, the dye has generated much concern regarding its use, due to its reported toxic effects. The toxicity of this dye increases with exposure time, temperature and concentration. It has been reported to cause carcinogenesis, mutagenesis, chromosomal fractures, teratogenecity and respiratory toxicity. Histopathological effects of MG include multi-organ tissue injury. Significant alterations occur in biochemical parameters of blood in MG exposed fish. Residues of MG and its reduced form, leucomalachite green have been reported from serum, liver, kidney, muscles and other tissues as also from eggs and fry. Toxicity occurs in some mammals, including organ damage, mutagenic, carcinogenic and developmental abnormalities. However, despite the large amount of data on its toxic effects, MG is still used as a parasiticide in aquaculture and other industries. It is concluded that the potential of alternative parasiticides, like humic acid, chlorine dioxide and Pyceze, should be explored to replace MG. Until then, MG should be used with extreme care at suitable concentrations and at times when the temperature is low. Removal of residual MG in treatment ponds should also be considered."



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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 08/04/2019, 10:00 AM   #13
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My understanding is that Malachite Green is primarily a freshwater fish medication and is mostly useful for treating fungal infections.


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Old 08/23/2019, 01:47 PM   #14
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My understanding is that Malachite Green is primarily a freshwater fish medication and is mostly useful for treating fungal infections.
It is also quite effective against Uronema: Environmental factors and chemical agents affecting the growth of the pathogenic marine ciliate Uronema nigricans


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 08/25/2019, 10:22 PM   #15
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The study conducted tests in the 1 - 8 ppm range. My understanding is that fish should only be exposed to Malachite Green at concentrations of 0.05 ppm - 0.15 ppm.


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Old 08/26/2019, 01:55 AM   #16
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The study conducted tests in the 1 - 8 ppm range. My understanding is that fish should only be exposed to Malachite Green at concentrations of 0.05 ppm - 0.15 ppm.
Ideally, fish shouldn't at all be exposed to it.


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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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