Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Do It Yourself
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 11/22/2010, 02:58 AM   #151
kcress
Registered Member
 
kcress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central California Coast.
Posts: 5,383
chrissu; Are you saying you let the scrubber fill with water? So the Turf is fully submerged?


kcress is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 07:36 AM   #152
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,265
Blog Entries: 15
yes, you get 3-dimensional growth that way. Mad 3D growth. I don't have the SM cleaning video handy right now but on his it's 75% full of water at 2 weeks (he was experimenting with time between cleanings and max growth potential)

That's what I'm shooting for too.

I think there was a post asking about FW scrubbers but it's gone. Yes same principle except need to add Phosphate in most cases. Not good for planted tanks though, since the algae sucks out all the nutrients.


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 02:35 PM   #153
kcress
Registered Member
 
kcress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central California Coast.
Posts: 5,383
Wow! Most interesting.


kcress is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 03:50 PM   #154
widmer
Drug Enthusiast
 
widmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 2,958
But wouldn't algae immediately cover whatever peice of acrylic/glass that the light is shining through?


widmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 04:26 PM   #155
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,265
Blog Entries: 15
As the algae grows, it 'holds' the water in the chamber. Example: Look at the water level at the bottom of the screen in this pic from a few days after the last cleaning I did:



Now look at it today:



The water in the bottom area is almost to the top. By the way, this is the greenest and thickest screen by far that I've had. I need to clean it early, can't wait until tomorrow AM. This is causing a problem to surface sooner than expected. I am in the process of re-designing to accommodate for allowing the water level to rise.


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 06:13 PM   #156
Flanders
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 3,592
I've been following along but I'm pretty stumped by the water level thing. I'm not sure what you mean, or why you would want the entire screen submerged. I thought the whole point of this design was high flow and air exchange?


__________________
Insert witty phrase, followed by explosive laughter

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon reef, two 175-watt MH, two vho actinic
Flanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 06:43 PM   #157
chrissu
Moved On
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcress View Post
chrissu; Are you saying you let the scrubber fill with water? So the Turf is fully submerged?
kcress, On my Santa Monica 100 ATS, i have it modified it so that the bottom 2" area is always submerged in a bath of water. The two most importantant rules are still followed with this mod. 1-High intense light up close, 2-lots of water flow (I still have this even in the submerged area).

Check out the video here and you'll get the idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8xlRCxc1k4



Last edited by chrissu; 11/22/2010 at 06:49 PM.
chrissu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 06:48 PM   #158
chrissu
Moved On
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
I've been following along but I'm pretty stumped by the water level thing. I'm not sure what you mean, or why you would want the entire screen submerged. I thought the whole point of this design was high flow and air exchange?
I used to think that air exchange was important but it is not. Algae doesn't need or consume oxygen, instead it consumes ammonia and in exchange it creates oxygen (photosynthesis in action - like a tree).


chrissu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 06:53 PM   #159
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC Member
 
der_wille_zur_macht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 17,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissu View Post
I used to think that air exchange was important but it is not. Algae doesn't need or consume oxygen, instead it consumes ammonia and in exchange it creates oxygen (photosynthesis in action - like a tree).
Ammonia only provides a source of nitrogen - the algae still need a carbon source. The most typical carbon source is carbonic acid from dissolved CO2.


__________________
Inconveniencing marine life since 1992

"It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)
der_wille_zur_macht is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/22/2010, 10:09 PM   #160
chrissu
Moved On
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht View Post
Ammonia only provides a source of nitrogen - the algae still need a carbon source. The most typical carbon source is carbonic acid from dissolved CO2.
Yes, I agree and like to keep things simple as the ammonia loss is at the heart of the success of an ATS system.

Luckily, there are a couple processes that also result in the loss or transformation of ammonia. The most important process is the loss of ammonia through the uptake by algae and other plants. Plants use the nitrogen as a nutrient for growth. Photosynthesis acts like a sponge for ammonia uptake so overall plant or algae growth in the ponds can help
use up ammonia.

http://www.ysi.com/media/pdfs/A585-U...ture-Ponds.pdf


chrissu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/23/2010, 12:46 AM   #161
kcress
Registered Member
 
kcress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central California Coast.
Posts: 5,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
I've been following along but I'm pretty stumped by the water level thing. I'm not sure what you mean, or why you would want the entire screen submerged. I thought the whole point of this design was high flow and air exchange?
The screen starts to cover up then builds out until it hits the front window. At that point it grows up the glass. The idea is that the light makes it thru the front algae to continue the growth behind. The air contact thing has been questionable from day one. The algae works with the gasses dissolved in the water. This movie shows how it builds up and across the screens whan you go with the submerged method.

chrissu; Thanks for the info and that link. It led me to this one.




kcress is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/23/2010, 12:48 AM   #162
juns98
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Manila, Philippines
Posts: 1
Your ATS is too small. You dont need a skimmer if your ATS is large enough for the volume of your tank and the number of livestock in it.
Dont overfeed the system. And you dont need frequent water changes (10% a month will suffice.


__________________
25g Nano reef, skimerless, sumpless, ATS system-3 years old
100g Reef, skimerless, sumpless, ATS system-5 years old
Various LPS, SPS, marine fish species
juns98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/23/2010, 12:49 AM   #163
kcress
Registered Member
 
kcress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central California Coast.
Posts: 5,383
It's always been SOP to rinse in fresh water to kill the pods.. In these flooded ATS (FATS) is this no longer a concern?


kcress is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/24/2010, 12:32 PM   #164
erics3000
Registered Member
 
erics3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Palm Bay FL
Posts: 2,957
great thread


__________________
Eric

(Red House for my 300 display 600 system)

Current Tank Info: 600 gallon system with 300 display
erics3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/25/2010, 11:07 AM   #165
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,419
What is the optimum distance between the side of the scrubber and the screen to achieve 3D growth?


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/25/2010, 11:28 AM   #166
chrissu
Moved On
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 443
I recommend 1.5" each side, which is the same as my Santa Monica 100 ATS.


chrissu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/25/2010, 06:46 PM   #167
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
 
herring_fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA
Posts: 1,029
Your scrubber is ending up to be much like mine in results. My dump bucket fills up to get 3D light and water contact, much like yours, with just about the same volume of growth and the same kind of algae. I have 3 inches of water in the deep end and there is less room for growth at the other end.

What I like about that king of algae is that if you don’t feel like scraping the screen that week, you can simply grab a hand full from either side and export is complete. Of course scrapping is better, particularly when you are starting out.

After a long time, that type of algae started growing on the smooth bottom of the tray so I stopped using the screen at all. I just grabbed hands full of the stuff and I was done. It tears away very nicely.


herring_fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 12:05 AM   #168
kcress
Registered Member
 
kcress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central California Coast.
Posts: 5,383
So no pod issues?


kcress is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 12:27 AM   #169
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
 
herring_fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA
Posts: 1,029
No ...not in my case. When I yank it out, the pods come with it. The ones that stay don't do noticeable damage. Perhaps it is the particular type of algae (long and stringy like Easter basket cellophane grass).

What I grow in not typical turf algae so perhaps that pods don't attach the root, they eat evenly. I'm not really sure.


herring_fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 05:24 AM   #170
kcress
Registered Member
 
kcress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central California Coast.
Posts: 5,383
Thanks for that info. Got a pic of this bad boy?


kcress is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 10:45 AM   #171
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
 
herring_fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA
Posts: 1,029
You can fine this video of the dump bucket,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoKX8AjEbI
on my website, along with another video of the splash and some articles that were publish when I made my last reef tank in the 90’s. It also has some of what I am doing now. Take a look at it:

http://asaherring.com
Before you look at the video, look back at my dump bucket graphic as a review or see it on my web site. You will be able to pick out what is what a little better.


herring_fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 12:26 PM   #172
shrimphead
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 552
Hi i've got some questions for all you ATS heads out there,
i was at one point thinking of doing an ATS but was put off because of the maintenance seems more practical to me to just utilise a skimmer and some macro but this thread has been making me think otherwise but i've got some questions.

what do you do if you go on holiday, from what i read it is very important it is cleaned every week or 2 at most.
do you get much evaporation?
how do you stop it from entering your display or sump?
from that last post from kcress why do you have to grow the hair algae on a screen why not grow it submerged in dedicated a tank.


shrimphead is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 02:39 PM   #173
kcress
Registered Member
 
kcress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central California Coast.
Posts: 5,383
Quote:
what do you do if you go on holiday, from what i read it is very important it is cleaned every week or 2 at most.
do you get much evaporation?
how do you stop it from entering your display or sump?
from that last post from kcress why do you have to grow the hair algae on a screen why not grow it submerged in dedicated a tank.
The subject appears to be changing. A classic ATS has some evaporation. And should be cleaned and freshwater rinsed once a week. The really new FATS can go for weeks before maintenance.

The light in the TS is so bright that the algae preferentially grows only in the TS. The result is very low to no nitrates in the Display, so there is no fuel for algae in the DT and the light is too weak.

The new FATS may allow you to avoid a screen. I'll try doing this without a screen.


kcress is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 09:30 PM   #174
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
 
herring_fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA
Posts: 1,029
If the subject is changing a little so be it. There doesn’t seem to be “anyone here but use chickens”.

I guess that a dump bucket is a FATS unit as well so I will chime in. One of the good things about agitation and/or turbulence is that you can go a lot longer without harvesting the algae because it doesn’t get matted.

On the other have, dump buckets are very hard to design in the first place and you can’t buy them, as far as I can tell.

As far as Kcress’s FATS, in a worst case, if a small amount of the algae died during a long vacation, I would think that the massive growth would just take up or re-absorb anything that you might think of as bad.

In any case, with any good ATS design, if you really neglect the maintenance, what are the penalties that the detractors complain about? …Yellow water? …So what? Not dead corals!

I left my ATS unattended for 3 months with no yellow water and healthy corals at the end of that period.

I still don’t think that an ATS is any better that a skimmer. It’s just different. …but it does work and work well. I like it because I can keep food suspended longer. …and harvesting algae is much less gross than messing around with skimmate. I just wish that people had more inexpensive choices of ATS designs and manufacturers. I’m a designer with access to a machine shop but most people have to use a “scrubber in a bucket” which works great if that is an acceptable shape for your tank set up.


herring_fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/26/2010, 11:56 PM   #175
PowermanKW
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,083
So I have been doing some reading..... and I have a few questions too. Seems to me the this versus that is of no real use. The ATS setups I have seen seem unuser friendly and high maintenance. And no I am not bagging on them. Also seems like some of the criticizing of skimmers are not quite true. But my point is why not maximize what both do well?

From what I can tell the benefits of algae are in wide use today though macros in fuges. Albeit not near as efficient as a scrubber with powerful lighting. We all know the benefits achieved by letting nature do the work and using algae to clean the tank. Yet there seems to be some problems.

With a ATS harvesting needs to be done weekly because the algae will die underneath in the majority of GHA ATS. So it seems that the maximum depth of GHA is only so much and that has to be harvested. Am I correct.

Also the screen needs to be cleaned to kill pods because they eat the algae. Yet in a fuge that is sort of what you want. You want the algae to support pods yet at the end of the month or week you have a net export of nutrients. Sure the pods eat then get eaten then waste is put back into the water and those nutrients are not removed. But with removal of algae their is a net export.

So what I am really wondering is this..... have there been any experiments done with specific algae better suited for what we want.... meaning can grow more without dieing underneath so maintenance can be prolonged?

With common cheato fuges seems that a ball is just dumped in... have there been any attempts to grow cheato more efficiently scrubber style and exporting more nutrients than what is done now? Seems cheato might be better suited since more light can penetrate into the mass.

I still feel skimmers are good and needed. They are much more powerful now and most folks love over sizing them. My thinking is more like running the scrubber 16 hours on and skimming when it is off. Put the skimmer on during the day time and run the scrubber over night time when corals feed and ph drops. I guess I just wondering how to best compliment each other instead of a either or thing.

I tried looking up FATS which is why I'm on this tangent but could not find anything.


__________________
90g RR SPS dominate. WM K2 skimmer /red nw. 60g fuge/sump. Upgraded Coralife Pro 250w w/ dual Galaxy and 14K Phoenix with 2x96 SPS dual actinic. Apex controller with WXM and two MP40s. Herbie overflow. Now running Warner Marine EcoBAK bio pellets.
PowermanKW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
algea scrubber question mayjong Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment 2 08/05/2010 11:56 AM
algea scrubber questions guillotine Northern Ohio Reef Keepers 11 05/18/2010 12:16 PM
algea scrubbers Tonycip Northern Ohio Reef Keepers 4 11/19/2009 03:47 PM
Help with finding algea scrubber AD87 Northern Ohio Reef Keepers 10 02/03/2009 02:55 AM
therme algea scrubber mcmarkrazz Reef Discussion 0 11/25/2006 01:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.