Lanthanum chloride

[teamdulski]

Hmm, I will have to stop at the Leslies after I get out from work Friday night to try this out.

[Gary Majchrzak]

FWIW my Lawnmower Blenny (microalgae indicator) croaked last week.

[teamdulski]

Has anyone seen the Aquarium maintenance line of this company....including their phosphate remover?

I realize its probably the exact same thing as their pool product, just interesting they have an aquarium line.

http://www.seaklear.com/content/sek-...ts-aquaria.php


http://www.halosource.com/userfiles/...asellsheet.pdf

[Gary Majchrzak]

very interesting.
I wonder just how new the aquarium line is... I've never seen it before!

[teamdulski]

Alright went to Leslie's today at Bailey and Sheridan and found it under the Natural Chemistry "Phos-Free" name. I had a great conversation with either the very informed manager or maybe owner who knew a lot about Lanthanum. She asked my use and I told her, and she can sense I was a little uneasy because it wasn't exactly sea-clear and it doesn't clearly state on the bottle the ingredients. She then informed me that it was Lanthanum. She proceeded to tell me that the Buffalo Zoo buys it in bulk from her to control algae in any display they have involving water, especially their sea otter area that apparently was taken from a green mess to crystal clear in less than 2 weeks using this very product. She then informed me (and this would explain why Gary harps on the 10 micron bag) that the way it works is that it attaches to fibers (filter material) and phosphates bond to it as they float by.

As for my treatment I stuffed all my baffles with filter floss, and then stuffed some more to make as much area for lanthanum -- phosphate interaction as possible with no pass through. I dripped what I would call 0.2oz over a 45 minute period into my overflows and watched my skimmer go nuts and tuned accordingly. Obviously lights are off but with moonlights on it within 10 minutes triggered my candy canes to put out their feeders. No visible difference in my clams.

Will report back with more Sunday night.


Gary if one drips it into the overflow what would be the point of diluting it?

[Gary Majchrzak]

although the Lanthanum chloride product one might be using may be diluted to begin (with from the factory) dripping (or slow dosing) is not the same thing as diluting.
(You're probably already aware of this but I felt compelled to point it out.)
I've dosed 'straight' product and diluted product.
It appears that I get much better results by diluting the product before use. I would also think it's safer to use in this manner (dilution).
Any idea how long the Buffalo Zoo has been using this technique to keep water clean in displays, dulski?

[teamdulski]

The manager didn't give me an exact time but from the sounds of it, it had to be at least 6 months if not a year. The zoo now buys a few different products in bulk from her apparently but the Lanthanum is used in almost all if not all of their displays involving water.

She also asked if I needed a phosphate test and I said if she had one that actually worked I'd be impressed. She offered a free phosphate test with the kit she was showing me and since I was at work, I'd figure I'd bring a sample from our look down which would have the least measurable phosphates, brought the sample back....150-200ppb.

So I figured I'd pick up the kit (certainly pricey at $11.50 for 10 tests) since she'd been so helpful. Tested Friday night at 200-250ppb. Currently 100ppb.

I got a 25 micron sock and will see if diluting it yields any different results. Red slime still a factor on the sand bed but not as bad. LPS polyp extension is certainly enhanced.

[teamdulski]

I see no noticeable difference in dripping a diluted Lanthanum, then dripping the pure Lanthanum straight into the overflows. One thing I do notice is that my pink echino and green chalice seems to now be growing noticeably overnight and the polyp extension on my elegance, torches and frogspawns is 20-30% greater now. No ill effects seen on my T. Croceas or my Derasa clams.

Hopefully my new bulbs arriving wed. aid in erradicating this pesky red slime on the sand bed which I can't seem to quite rid myself of.

[Conesus_Kid]

Great stuff, guys!

I'm interested in that phosphate test you scored. $11.50 for ten tests is still a heck of a lot cheaper than a Hannah phosphate colorimeter! Are those tests standard pool supply store fare, or are they a special order item?

I noticed a Leslie's pool supply store near Panorama when I was at my folks' place this past weekend. I may need to stop in and do some poking around...

[teamdulski]

The name of the phosphate test was "Natural Chemistry Phosphate Test". Same name brand as on the Lanthanum. I would assume all Leslie's carry it, I would highly suggest taking a water sample for two reasons. 1) free phosphate test 2) If I hadn't seen the order of how to do the test the instructions would have made little to no sense.

-adam

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by teamdulski
I see no noticeable difference in dripping a diluted Lanthanum, then dripping the pure Lanthanum straight into the overflows.

diluting the Lanthanum makes it much easier to slowly drip dose it

[teamdulski]

Alright Gary now I understand.


Alright so I have a theory/question, if the Lanthanum binds to the filter media (micron bag) then binds phosphates as they float by, is there really any benefit to dosing the same micron bag unless you wash it in between since in theory wouldn't most of the bindable area be used up on the first dosing?

So boiled down ... is there any real benefit to continual dosing the same micron bag without it being washed out?

[SkiFletch]

Well yes and no. Obviously once the filter bag is full no more lanthanum phosphate is removed, but free lanthanum from further dosing will bind up more phosphate and remove it from the water column. The issue appears to be that fish gills and clams do not like the lanthanum so when your filter bag runs out, then your fish won't be happy with you. Make sense?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by teamdulski
is there any real benefit to continual dosing the same micron bag without it being washed out?

Water must pass through the fibers of the bag to be effective. If water is overflowing the bag than it's not working properly and the bag needs to be replaced or washed.

[teamdulski]

What I'm trying to say is that once Lanthanum is dosed into the bag, how much could another dose a few dayslater really coat the bag that the original dose didn't cover?

[tmz]

How long do you generally go between cleanings of the bag?

I'm using a diluted commercial product(Phosphate E) periodicaly once a week or so at 10ml for 575 g not constantly . It sup[plements the gfo I use .It gathers up in a fat piece of floss it must pass through the way I have it plumbed. The floss catches some detritus as well and obviously I want to leave it unrinsed in the system only as long as it is useful . So what I need to figure out is how long the lanthanum chloride actively binds phosphate.What is it's usefull life when dosed?

[melev]

It looks like I may never have to use this stuff again, as my PO4 continues to measure at .03ppm using daily Vodka dosings.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I sincerely wonder why public aquariums don't use Vodka, Marc.


regarding the Lanthanum chloride: it binds instantly with phosphates upon contact. The 5 micron filter size is important. If you use a larger micron size it's not catching everything that it should in one pass and I would leave the filter in place. Every time that I dose the amount that I've recommended in this thread my filter bag gets totally clogged (immediately) and needs to be rinsed/replaced. I continue to run the filter 24/7 simply because the amount of crud it catches is unbelievable. (I rinse it out daily regardless of whether or not I dosed Lanthanum chloride. I dose the Lanthanum chloride about once every other week now.)
I've never seen any pods in my filter bag since starting this routine several months ago and I've collected two or three micro brittlestars so the impact on microfauna is insignificant IMO.
Stony coral coral growth is improved and (more significantly) coloration in my Acropora is phenomenal -but I'm having a very difficult time capturing it in pictures.

[melev]

Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
I sincerely wonder why public aquariums don't use Vodka, Marc.

I'm dosing 15ml per day in a 280g reef. For public aquariums with 1500g systems, that would be somewhere around 75ml per day. Probably not cost effective compared to Lanthanum chloride.

Plus they may not trust their worker bees around the the liquor.

[tmz]

Marc. Is the vodka reducing nitrates for you?

[melev]

Very very slowly.

[reefkeeper2]

In regards to vodka dosing, in my tank the phosphate and nitate reducing effect was not permanent. Over time the levels began to climbagain and I was forced to look for other methods of removal. I have not read of this happening to anyone else so maybe it's just a fluke. I think the bacteria could not keep up with the nutrient input. As I increased the vodka dosage to compensate I did not observe a decrease in nitrates or phosphates. There must be some limiting factor that alows carbon dosage to work up to a certain point. Anyone else experience this? Anyway, I plan on trying lanthanum to control phosphates better with less expense.

[Paul_PSU]

I am dosing vodka. My nitrates have been zero but I have been having issues with phosphates. I have increased my dosage to 5ml on a 100gal total system volume but no effect on the algae in my tank. I really don't want to bump my vodka dosage any more since I have zero nitrates. I just got a bottle of SeaKlear phosphate remover for pools today. I dosed 1 ml today to start and will see if it works.

On a side not the phosphate remover came with a trial bottle of Natural Clarifier. I wonder if this would work on aquariums also. Here is the info on it: http://www.waterwarehouse.com/pdfs/2984.pdf It is all natural and the major active ingredient is chitosan which is the structural element in the exoskeleton of crustaceans. Here is an article on it where someone actually drinks some to show how harmless it is: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...lreport23.html

[Paul_PSU]

double post

[Piazzon12]

I think I remember reading that the bacteria need both nitrate and phosphate to do their thing... so once one of those two reaches zero, you are essentially at the low limit for the other