Coral & Anemone fragging - techniques

[captbunzo]

Honestly, the rants are actually fun to read...

And they are good to remind us ALL of the bigger picture...

[Anthony Calfo]

mille grazie

[NicoleC]

I'd like to see livestock dealers market by biotype, not arbitrary categories based on polyp type or fish shape.

For example, instead of the usual categories of:
tangs, blennies, gobies, etc.
SPS, LPS, softies

It would be:
Caribbean
South American
eastern Indo-Pacific
western Indo-Pacific
Indian Ocean
Red Sea
etc.

With subcategories of:
intertidal
atoll
rocky reef
lagoonal
etc.

But truth be told, most dealers can't tell you where their livestock was collected. But they won't insist on finding out until WE do.

[Anthony Calfo]

spot on Nicole!

It would be so easy for them to find out this information... they talk to their collectors on the phone weekly or more often... the names on these lists are indeed arbitrary and could just as easily be listed as "reef crest Acanthurus" "mud flat Elegant" or "rubble zone Coral Beauty"

But the truth of the matter instead is that not enough consumers are bugging their LFS to bug their wholesalers, etc for this information!

So what we get instead is "Super-matallic tasty purple people eating hair-growing dome coral!"

Really... for those of you that have not had the pleasure of reading tranship lists... the names are every bit as hilarious as the ridiculous names you see on trendy corals in the retail sectors.

Yet the collectors in the islands have VERY specific places where they go to collect very specific animals. It's not like all fishes and corals we keep in our dreadful little hodg-podge tanks () all come from all areas of all reefs in the, say, Indo-Pacific. Hardly so.

In so many cases... fishes like Flame Hawks from Tonga or Fiji come from only one side of one island in a very specific zone.

To report that information with a descriptive moniker wold surely be easier (less brain cells) than making up creative names, no?

Great point, again Nicole

[causeofhim]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
causeofhim... you've never been to a reef. Clearly

Actually, I have dove around the world and seen many reefs. I realize that many of our reef do not mimic the natural reefs. To do so would be almost impossible.
What I was asking originally was about your comment that you made . .

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
And I'm praying to God that this and any anemone is not kept in reef tanks with corals... a staggeringly unnatural mix and the reason in part why so many fare so poorly in time. To then cut such an animal in a display and forcing it to heal while at the same time suffering the water quality of a toxic soup with so many other cnidarians, is just bad husbandry and bad technique.
[/B]

I've just never heard anyone before state that keeping an anemone in tank with other cnidarians was bad husbandry and bad technique.

[Anthony Calfo]

I don't see the confusion here, causeofhim

You do not find mandarinfishes near many anemones on the reef... and when mixed in tanks with anemones, they often get eaten by the anemone. Its no surprise. Numerous aquarists have sadly seen this. Some reading this thread no doubt (it's that common).

And you rarely see anemones among stony corals on on crowded reef crests... and when you mix them in displays, they move around regularly... often with the aforementioned tragic results. We hear this over and over again too.

How are such unnatural and inappropriate (read: poorly researched or even impulse purchases) mixes not bad husbandry or plainly obvious with small effort?

Don't shoot me... I'm just the messenger, please.

I also don't buy the "Impossible to replicate a reef in my aquarium so... full speed ahead, mix what you want" rationale.

I cannot fathom how you've actually been on reefs and yet do not understand the pysiological (motile versus sessile cnidarian) nature of this incompatability issue. Maybe just resort diving

[dcoufal]

Doesn't rule #1 in marketing say to name things "Super-matallic tasty purple people eating hair-growing dome coral!" instead of mud flat Elegant"?

The average person wants a "flashy" name; otherwise, everyone would use latin names, right?

(Just playing devil's advocate, here....)

Dwain

[NicoleC]

The average person doesn't see the lists from the wholesalers.

[dcoufal]

Originally posted by NicoleC
The average person doesn't see the lists from the wholesalers.

No.... I'm talking about flashy names at the LFS and on-line. You know... where the average people go.

Dwain

[kinerson]

Anthony-

Thanks for the clarity on propogation technique for the carpet. A little more clarity though would be very much appreciated.

Yes you were right, my step #1 was to isolate him out of system with a bucket or something but of course he would still be in his home waters and temp

Asuming this was done in a 5 gal bucket, would leaving him in there after the cut for a short period of time and then perhaps gently "blowing" the mucus off of him before placing him back in the tank be a good thing? Would perhaps running some carbon also help out once placed back into main tank? Or would it perhaps be a bit over kill and simply resuming normal system upkeep be enough?

Thanks
Greg

[Anthony Calfo]

you are spot on Greg... do prop techniques when possible in a bath or bucket outside of the aquarium... heat the water if the episode will taken more than a few minutes (as with making many frags or doing multiple species at a sitting).

Do change the bath or bucket water a couple of times before returning the fragged specimens back to the holding tank or display. And using fresh carbon afterwards is a good idea as long as you have been using it regularly in weeks prior (trying to avoid light shock here form a sudden increase in water clarity).

A water change after a fragging event and/or ozone use is also helpful and recommended.

As for the "heated baths." One of the easiest ways to accomplish this for multiple buckets is to fill your sink or laundry tub with just enough water so that buckets inside do not float (hint: have more water in the bucket than you do in water height in the sink ). You can slip a small submersible heater into a PVC tube (to protect it from breaking against steel or porcellain tubs... or from melting plastic sinks). Adjust the temp and rest easy that you can work longer on your frags without temp shock at least.

Happy friggin fraggin... er, something like that. (Hmmm... that did not sound polite at all )

[Anthony Calfo]

Dwain... I/we do see your point, but as I think Nicole was pointing out... the names in many cases are handed down.

So somewhere between the nauseating, flashy and unhelpful names... and a simple GPS coordinate point from the reef for a name, is the ideal

And if we as consumers demand more info (is that a Fijiian CB, or a Phililppino one?), then the word will travel up the chain of command/custody.

Moreover... with the tiniest bit of research (hobby books, online here, good database websites, etc) a large number of creatures can be identified to a specific location on the reef by their color or morphology alone.

Some examples...

Turbinaria peltata: cup form (deeper water and/or lower water flow)... "pagoda" form (shallower water and/or higher water flow)

Acropora: short stout fingers (high water flow, usually shallow)... fine branches [ala bottlebrush] (deeper water, weaker water flow) and/or very dark color [often brownor green] (deeper or more turbid water)

"Wall" form to the stony skeleton (like "Hammer coral") hails from hard substrates/rocks... conical skeletons (Trachyphyllia usually) are for nestling in soft substrates like sand or mud.

Form follow function. And the forms of the creatures we keep are so revealing if we take just a little time in advance to discover the wonder if not science of their adaptations.

It's frankly a tragedy to me to see an aquarist with hundreds or thousands of dollars in live coral (and who knows how much money spent on coral/frags that died)... yet they do not own fundamental ID references like Alderslade (2001) for soft corals, or Veron for stonies... they often have never heard of algae-base.org, fishbase.org, scholar.google.com... the Breeders Registry (for marine species).

but they keep buying fishes and corals... though usually no QT tank either.


Sigh.... oh, I feel it coming....





yeah....





it's a bad one...







Prince's Purple Rain.

[kinerson]

LOL, your a riot!

[causeofhim]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo

I also don't buy the "Impossible to replicate a reef in my aquarium so... full speed ahead, mix what you want" rationale.

I cannot fathom how you've actually been on reefs and yet do not understand the pysiological (motile versus sessile cnidarian) nature of this incompatability issue. Maybe just resort diving

Wow Anthony! I've always enjoyed your comments and youir insight. I think your editing has driven you a bit hard because your comments towards me are quite harsh.
OK, I'll stop crying now.
Anyhow.
I dont recall saying "full speed ahead, mix what you want" nor did I even think that. Also, I've done many dives and been on many reefs thoughout the South Pacific (GBR and Fiji), Hawaii, and throughout the Carribean and never once went with a "fluffy resort dive". I understand how certain types of cnidarians live together and why.

I just was shocked to hear you say that it was poor practice to keep an anemone in a tank with othetr corals.

IME I have a RBTA in a tank stocked with other corals and it has not moved an inch. Nor have I ever lost any of my corals. The RBTA has only been in about a year, but I will be sure to keep you updated on weather it does any damage within it's 20 year lifespan.

[Anthony Calfo]

The BTA (Entacmea quadricolor) is one of the only anemones that is relatively easy to satisy flow and light reqs in aquaria... as such it is indeed one of the better choices for use.

Heteractis crispa and H. malu as well as Macrodactylus doreensis are some of the few anemones that ship reasonably well, and are also reasonably easy to care for.

Others are just enormous once mature regardlkess of hardiness or not (carpet type anemones getting a meter or more in diameter... who hasa tank to give up for that? Few people are willing).

But the overwhelming majority of anemones collected for live trade ship dismally... and some have no practical chance of surviving in typical reef aquaria at all (magnifica/ritteri... truly in need of a specialist/specialized tank).

Sadly... even the best anemones have rather poor sustainability in the wild (as mentioed previously).

That reality really amplifies the tragedy of poor shipping and the inappropriate tanks that most all make it into.

It is the impetus for claims of poor use of a living resource.

I suppose that is my bottom line concern - wanting to see a more responsible use of the limited living resource.

[causeofhim]

Amen!

[captbunzo]

And here's to my latest night at work, tonight, and finishing it off well with another half dozen posts to read in this thread. Thank you much, ladies & gentlemen.

Now, home and to bed with me for my 3 hours of sleep before I have to come back!

[fishdoc11]

Great thread

The one problem I see with cutting acros into wafers is that you have less continuous intact tissue(if that makes sense). IME frags(the traditional "finger" kind) less than 1/2" have a poorer survival rate than ones that are 1-2" long. I am assuming wafers are cut ~ 1/4". I know that frags cut at 1/4" have a very poor survival rate. Maybe I'm missing something.................

thanks, Chris

[Kreeger1]

I agree Chris, that has been my experience as well. And just wondering what tool to use to get acro branches to wafer thin pieces without killing the whole branch while doing it.
Erik

[Anthony Calfo]

Erik/Chris... I 'm not sure what your/the problem is with rates of morbidity/mortality... many folks have trouble with such small frags because they are fragging from frags that themselves have only been held for weeks/months... or if longer, poorly fed and conditioned.

I have made thousands of such frags (understatement) and find it to be one of the most productive methods. The exposed corallum is not dead either. The matrix is alive, healing is fast, and the surace area is strategically wide enough that more than one corallite will necessarily form. It's time tested and successful. Eric B concurs, I am certain, from his work with both Pacific and Atlantic stonies (academic).

As for the tool, Erik, please read back in the post... lapidary saw or simply a ceramic wet tile saw.

[Kreeger1]

Well I'll give my trusty wetsaw a try at it. I've always come to the conclusion that the flat mounted sps corals vs. the stick like mounting didn't look as nice or sell as well. It takes what maybe a month if that tho get a sps branch to start to encrust on a plug/rubble rock and it resembles the parent colony. The side mount takes much longer to resemble the parent colony which inturn causes people to past on that frag. I agree that in a few maybe 6 months the frag mounted sideways will be much nicer and larger but it todays fast paced society everyone wants it today, bigger, better, faster.
But hey, after7-8 years of making sps frags and using different methods to make them, I'll go ahead and give the wetsaw a try at the sps corals.
I'll take some pictures too.
Erik

[Marcelog]

Yes, pics lease. I'd love to see this.

Marcelo -

[Anthony Calfo]

we have different perspectives here Erik. The chop shop mentality of fast fragging is what has got us to this (good point) in the hobby... but it will not support us wholly or even remotely close to being self-sustaining: hence the start of this thread and my initial points: optimizing techniques among known successful strategies.

You will produce more mass by waiting longer and growing more branches that grow more braches, etc than if you simply take the fast cash/quick turnaround perspective. That perspective is not wrong, again, but it is also not the topic or direction of this thread for optimizing productivity.

[fishdoc11]

many folks have trouble with such small frags because they are fragging from frags that themselves have only been held for weeks/months... or if longer, poorly fed and conditioned.

I am refering to multi generation tank raised corals(all of my "sps" are multi generation tank raised ) that have prospered in my tanks for years. I don't make a habit of making pieces that small but the invariable frags made from cleaning/rearanging etc....that are smaller than I would like maybe do well 50-75% of the time. Also I have fragged out large plating Montiporas several times and the tiny 1/4 "left over" pieces seem to have somewhere around a 50-75% survival rate also. I can't remember the last frag I made over 1" that died. Anyway, I don't doubt that you and Eric have had good success with the wafer method. Possible contributing factors could be multiple pieces so that if one or two die no harm done and possibly the cut made by the biamond blade being cleaner than the one made by side cutters or mere clumsiness?

At any rate I love the thread and very much aprechiate it

thanks, Chris

[Kreeger1]

You will produce more mass by waiting longer and growing more branches that grow more braches, etc than if you simply take the fast cash/quick turnaround perspective. That perspective is not wrong, again, but it is also not the topic or direction of this thread for optimizing productivity.
I do understand that point completely, but I was just posting my views as to what people want to buy. Sorry bout that.

Its a little cold here in Cleveland so I'm going to wait till the weekend to fire up the torpedoe heater and get out the wet saw.

I often thought about buying a ok sized piece of acropora and breaking up all the branches to glue up on one rock. Let the small branches become one larger mass that way. I'm going to give that a try to this weekend and document some of those pictures.
Erik