Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[budster.stig1]

Uncleof6:

Thanks for the in-put, not much outside the box, but I know some don't like to go there. Thanks any way.............................Budster

[budster.stig1]

[QUOTE=uncleof6;20671940]First off: cut the pipes off, so that the outlets are less than 1" below the water level in the sump. (basic setup instructions)

The siphon capacity of a 1" line is right around 2000 gph w/36" drop, which is right where this tank should be running. So, I think you should be running a larger siphon--rather than pushing the limits of your siphon line.[QUOTE]


Uncleof6:

My design plans call for this tank to run at about 1200gph, I will create more usefull flow in the tank with programable power heads. Back to the origional question, if a 1" line should carry 2000gph at full syphon, I wonder why mine is performing at a much reduced rate of about 1200gph. My pipes at the sump are cut off at about 1" to 2" below sump level (as I recall that was the recomendation in the basic set-up instructions). My ball valve is placed low on the 1" line. My syphon starts easily with no problems, I have vented the open line with a threaded fitting and 3/8" poly line, the open channel will syphon readily when the poly line is closed. All seems to be working as advertised, just not the capacity you claim. If you have any ideas I would be interested in hearing them, maybe Bean would chime in on this one too.
.....................Budster (See pictures in next post)

[budster.stig1]

These pics. may help find the problem!

[BeanAnimal]

The 1" pipe will incur friction losses. Lets assume it is #40 pipe that has an effective ID of about 1". WITHOUT accountinf for friction loss, and gravity alone, at 36" the max theoretical flow is about 2000 GPH. at 24" it is 1600 GPH.

Assumung the union has a slight restriction, as does the fully open ball valve, and the friction of the pipe and that added by the bends, intake angle, etc. 1200 GPH max is right in the ballpark.

[budster.stig1]

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

The 1" pipe will incur friction losses. Lets assume it is #40 pipe that has an effective ID of about 1". WITHOUT accountinf for friction loss, and gravity alone, at 36" the max theoretical flow is about 2000 GPH. at 24" it is 1600 GPH.

Assumung the union has a slight restriction, as does the fully open ball valve, and the friction of the pipe and that added by the bends, intake angle, etc. 1200 GPH max is right in the ballpark.

Thanks Bean: One question would be, can I gain any flow by increasing pipe size from the hole in the glass down to the sump (union, ball valve and pipe) leaving the plumbing on the aquarium side of the glass at 1"?

Thanks again for your help.........................Budster

[rldcpa]

This is what I am planning...let me know if you see any issues. This is for a drilled bottom tank with one overflow in tank for a 165 gallon with 80 gallon sump.

1. I will have a 1.5" drain straight pipe (this is the vacuum drain) with a gate valve below to control drain speed. This will be the lowest drain.

2. The next drain will be a 1.5" durso drain pipe with a hole in the durso in the side to allow air in. This drain will have very low flow so hopefully will make no noise. This drain will be higher than the vacuum drain above. As this drain has no gate valve, and is wide open, it should be able to drain all water if the #1 drain plugs.

3. The 3rd drain is a 1.5" emergency staright pipe drain just like #1 above, which should turn into a vacuum drain just like #1 above if the other 2 drains get plugged.

Let me know if this will work fine and will be quiet.

[eagle9252]

Thinking of upgrading from a crammed 55g sump to a 75

I had designed another 55 and then decided to go to the 75.

Does this LQQK like it will work? I’m running a BA drain system. I did not want a long horizontal run and have read that the BA does not do well. So I’m thinking of moving them from draining in the right side of the old 55 and then in the right side of the middle area.

Will there be enough turbulence to churn the water with just the 2 drains 1” under water? It will then flow to the left and through 2 filter socks. It will dump in the sump close to the PS and then flow to the right and out through the external pump. Then I will have a spray bar in the fuge area pointing to the left to create some movement to the left and up and over to the right. The spray bar will get its water from the external pump.

My current sump flows right to left with the sump in the middle.



Updated 55 drawing.



New 75g design.

[uncleof6]

eagle9252,

As far as the drain lines are concerned, it is true a horizontal run in the lines could cause issues with the startup of the system, and possibly some noise from the open channel. However, running the lines at a 45° angle, will move the drain lines to a more convenient location, and will not affect the operation of the drain system.

Outlets for this drain system, need to be 1" or less below water level, for proper operation (startup) of the system. I am not sure what you are getting at with "churn the water" however.

As far as the sump flow logic and operation, that is pretty far off topic for this thread, and would probably be best dealt with in a sump design thread, or its own thread.

[eagle9252]

Churning meant the rotation / flow or turn over inside the drain box. Would the velocity of the water with the pipes just 1"under the surface cycle the water in the drain box

[uncleof6]

Yes, depending on the flow rate. But even if it did not, you do not want the outlets more than 1" below the water level.

[meegwell]

I just check my local Lowes (preparing for BA setup in 90 g) and there are no sanitary Tees in the schedule 40 section (Im doing 1", but there weren't any..not even a shelf place for them). Is this normal? I assume a sanitary tee would be much better but can I use a normal Tee at the top of the three downpipies?

Should I bother checking HomeDepot or will I see the same thing there?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by meegwell

I just check my local Lowes (preparing for BA setup in 90 g) and there are no sanitary Tees in the schedule 40 section (Im doing 1", but there weren't any..not even a shelf place for them). Is this normal? I assume a sanitary tee would be much better but can I use a normal Tee at the top of the three downpipies?

Should I bother checking HomeDepot or will I see the same thing there?

They don't make sanitary tees smaller than 1.5". You will not find them at Home Depot either. Regular tees will work fine, the sani tees just cause less turbulence.

Also, I would use 1.25" for the open channel. 1" open channels will be a bit touchy ( a very low laminar flow capacity.)

[meegwell]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

They don't make sanitary tees smaller than 1.5". You will not find them at Home Depot either. Regular tees will work fine, the sani tees just cause less turbulence.

Also, I would use 1.25" for the open channel. 1" open channels will be a bit touchy ( a very low laminar flow capacity.)

Well I had to look up "laminar" so now I get what you're saying. Does that issue have anything to do with the overall flow? i.e. If im running well under pipe capacity (600gph) of the siphon.

Thanks for saving me a trip to HD.

Oh, and I just though of this...is there some point where the downpipe is too big relative to the return pipe (less head) such that I can create a siphon and successful BA setup? I mean I'll go bigger but I figured it was overkill and more glass stress (bigger holes) for no upside (plan on flow of 500-800).

[meegwell]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Has anyone extended the pvc pipe between the tank bulkhead and the sanitary T so that ball valves and rest of the plumbing is all on the other side of a wall (in the fish room)?

This question is from an old post but I couldn't find an answer. I too plan on running straight out of the tank for about 6-7" before hitting the Tee. Is this ok?

[dwolson2]

I have normal t's without any problems.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by meegwell

Well I had to look up "laminar" so now I get what you're saying. Does that issue have anything to do with the overall flow? i.e. If im running well under pipe capacity (600gph) of the siphon.

Thanks for saving me a trip to HD.

Oh, and I just though of this...is there some point where the downpipe is too big relative to the return pipe (less head) such that I can create a siphon and successful BA setup? I mean I'll go bigger but I figured it was overkill and more glass stress (bigger holes) for no upside (plan on flow of 500-800).

Flow capacity through the 1" siphon will probably be around 1200 - 1500 max, depending on the length of the drop. So the total flow won't be an issue. However, the laminar flow rate through a 1" air assisted (open channel et al) will be around 50 gph. Rather narrow margin. the 1.25" open channel will give you a bit more flexibility. The other pipes can remain 1".

The system as designed (in bean's thread) will handle a wide range of flow rates from rather high to rather low. However, I don't see a need to increase the pipe size for the siphon and dry emergency since your flow rate will be fairly below the capacity. If you were going to approach 1000 gph or so, I would suggest you up the pipe size on all three. If you used larger pipe @ say 900 gph, the valve would be closed quite a bit, and I don't much like that. 900 gph is where i would run this tank.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by meegwell

This question is from an old post but I couldn't find an answer. I too plan on running straight out of the tank for about 6-7" before hitting the Tee. Is this ok?

Horizontal runs in the drain lines, can cause an air lock, and prevent the siphon from starting. I would avoid horizontal runs if at all possible--and it usually is.

[meegwell]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Horizontal runs in the drain lines, can cause an air lock, and prevent the siphon from starting. I would avoid horizontal runs if at all possible--and it usually is.

So glad i'm exploring this. OK, so the tank will sit 3" from the wall (back side). The wall is 1/2" drywall, then 3.5" stud, no drywall on the otherside (utility room). Total original design horizontal from tank glass exterior = ~7".

To minimize this, I can do 1 of two things:

Drop the first tee between the studs on the other side of the wall. This saves 3.5 inches (or so), but will cause me to have to bring it back out into the sump (another angle, 45 likley sloped into the sump).

or

Do a 45 righ outside the tank, angle through the wall, another 45 on the other side, straight down to the sump.

Having the three inch span between the tank and the wall straight would be much cleaner and not block my cleaning space as much as an angled downpipe...how much of a difference are we talking here as far as getting the siphon started? I will also have the siphen hole a half inch lower than the other two FWIW.

[uncleof6]

Be cleaner yes, but the 45° angle will work better.

[eagle9252]

Come out off the bottom of the tee on the tank and then 45 through the wall and then 45 to the sump

[uncleof6]

That is the basic idea yes.

[dairelee]

I have set up the Bean Overflow on my 240. It works great except when I lose power or shut down the pumps. When they turn back on, I can't get the siphon to automatically start again. I have to unscrew the cap to the main drain to "flush it out". Am I missing something?

[uncleof6]

Most likely one of two things: The drain outlets are too deep in the sump, or you have a horizontal run in the drain line, and it is air locking. Two other possibilities are the dry emergency inlet is not high enough in relation to the siphon, or the air tube in the "open channel" is set to low in the overflow. Any of these things will prevent the water level in the overflow from developing enough "head pressure" to purge the air out of the siphon line.

[dairelee]

Could be the drain outlets are too deep in sump. I don't have any horizontal runs in the drain lines. The dry emergency inlet has an elbow pointing upwards, much higher than the siphon so I don't think it's that. I haven't attached the air tube from the open channel to anything yet - it's just laying on top of the brace. I'll try to shorten the drain outlets.

Thanks

[marcwake]

I am planning on using this style overflow but I need to go through a closet to my fish room. I will have to make a horizontal run of close to 4 ft to get there. Is there a way to make this work? I had planned on trying to keep a slight slope through the whole run, will this help?

Thanks