understanding crypt life-cycle

[hairalgae85]

Good evening, all-

After years of faithful reading, and looking upon the threads here at reef central, I have decided to finally sign up. Having had some sort of saltwater tank since the mid 90s, I am still confused about the topic of ich.

I don't think any other area in the hobby causes for more turnover than parasites. Water chemistry is easy often to correct, however, many people I have known have sold their setups for a fraction of what they paid due to the ailment.

I come with some questions, not looking necessarily for specific answers, but rather create dialogue and conversation that may lead to some sort of balance.

Knowing ich can harbor a fish for 2-7 days, I totally get and understand how tank transfer can be successful. By the time you arrive to the 12th day, the parasite would have had to fall off to continue its cycle, which is ultimately stopped abruptly by disinfection or drying of housing container.

Knowing this, and having seen the plethora of evidence that it does indeed work for folks, then why does this not apply to copper usage. Knowing the free swimming stage is never able to make it back to the fish because the enclosure is dried completely, leads me to think that not being able to ultimately get back to the fish, prevents the cycle, then why does copper usage, which kills the free swimming stage, not act in same manner.

In short, you are playing with the front end of the life cycle, not allowing reattachment, then how does 10 days in copper not do the same?

Again, I am not looking for easy yes-no types of advice, but why it wouldn't work. I understand copper is a chemical, not accepted by all species of fish, and is harsh. But I am not trying to gather whats safer, but simply, why one method works, and the other wouldn't.

The only evidence I have read has been written by the ph.d who started seachem. Where he states that the population of fish, based on how heavy it is in regards to space, may allow the parasite to find a host relatively quickly, thus flying under the copper radar. In short, the more fish you have in a given space, the easier it may be for a parasite to find a fish before the copper can effectively kill them.

Reason I ask all of this is, is I am in the process of acquiring an lfs store, and wish to prevent as much turn over as possible. As an owner, if I were to have separate systems, where one is half strength copper, and the second is full strength, I can not see why I wouldn't be able to introduce incoming fish to the half strength, allowing them to acclimate to copper, before moving them into the full strength system, for a period of 10 days. (essentially fulfilling cupramines suggestion of dosing half, waiting 48 hours, then into full strength)

This would mean all incoming fish, would not be sold for at least 13 days. This is just me devising a way of selling clean fish, which the tank transfer process would not be feasible in a store. I would think this would create a place where the parasite could simply not exist, and by walking them thru the two systems, I am essentially transferring them into an environment clean of parasite.

Now I know flukes, brook, and other ailments are also evident, however, I could do people a service by at least knocking out velvet and ich.

The store is already running, and has four separate fish systems. One could be half copper, for incoming fish, second could be full strength, third could be absent of chemical, and the final place for sale, and the fourth system could be a system, that would be stated, fish not fit for copper (mandarins etc)

I guess ultimately what I am looking for is, by placing a fish in copper for 10 days, thus going over the 7 day on fish limit prevent reinfection, ultimately stopping the cycle.

[snorvich]

Please read this. Copper acts on the back end of the life cycle which is not deterministic.. Not good to eliminate ich and not good for the fish. I suppose you could run copper for 72 days . . .

[snorvich]

Oh, and half strength copper will mask many parasites including ich.

[kmbyrnes]

I applaud your desire to provide healthier fish for your customers. I hope this thread brings out other opinions.

TTM works great for one or a few fish, but as a matter of scale, it is impractical from a business standpoint. So that leaves you with copper or hypo as alternatives. Trying to 'break' the cycle when fish are constantly flowing through the process gets problematic, unless you are only getting fish shipments every 2 weeks. Every time a new shipment arrives, you will have to start your 'clock' over, or have separate systems to handle new arrivals.

I know many of my LFS run low-dose copper. It may help keep fish alive long enough to be sold. Full strength copper must be monitored carefully to be effective and re-dosed to maintain the desired concentration. At full strength, it is also quite stressful, causing possible loss of appetite, loss of immune system response and even death.

IMO, a full strength copper treatment will only result in higher livestock loss due to stress and poisoning, and will incur higher costs for just a small benefit to the consumer, since there would be no way to guarantee an ich free specimen. So the buyer would still have to perform their own preferred ich prevention method, as well as treat for a parasites.

Good Luck on your new business!

[hairalgae85]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Oh, and half strength copper will mask many parasites including ich.

Ok, I understand that, this would have been in my mind, the two day holding period, allowing fish to be accustomed to copper, before being moved over to the full strength section. When seachem directs people to dose half, wait a few days, the full, simply following their guide line for the product .

I suppose no method would be practical here for what I am trying to do

[hairalgae85]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Please read this. Copper acts on the back end of the life cycle which is not deterministic.. Not good to eliminate ich and not good for the fish. I suppose you could run copper for 72 days . . .

I understand that. Thanks for the clarification. I would have believed the copper would kill he ich coming off the fish, as thus preventing the encysting from happening , and breaking the cycle. Hold them there long enough to allow all ich to fall off fish, and meet the copper

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by hairalgae85

I suppose no method would be practical here for what I am trying to do

Nor economically feasible.