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Unread 02/07/2009, 02:32 PM   #276
melev
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Quote:
Originally posted by MCsaxmaster
Marc,

Let me pick your brain just a bit, if I may

I absolutely agree that 8-11 dKH is an often recommended target and that higher than ~12 dKH is often said to be "too high" by many aquarists. I'm curious if you have thoughts on how it is or why it is a large part of the aquarist community has picked 11/12 dKH as a sort of threshold above which we prefer not tread?

As I said, I hear this very, very often, but I can think of absolutely no basis to use this particular value as any sort of threshold...besides that is what we hear and repeat so often

Chris
In the past (2003-2004), it seemed like all the SPS-diehards were aiming for 12-15 dKH, although RHF continually addressed that point, encouraging people to aim for NSW levels instead. That always made more sense to me.

The reason for the higher alk was that that, plus 6500K lighting, would result in very fast growth. The risk wasn't enough to derail that idea for many, which was that a precipitation event could occur. The tank would look like it was snowing in it, and alk & ca would bottom out quickly, leaving the hobbyist scrambling to get parameters back in line. I guess the best analogy is running your muscle car on the red line (RPMs) all the time, knowing you're running hot and running fast, hopefully long enough to win before your engine blew out.


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Unread 02/07/2009, 05:38 PM   #277
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Unread 02/08/2009, 09:24 PM   #278
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Hi Marc,

Quote:
Originally posted by melev
In the past (2003-2004), it seemed like all the SPS-diehards were aiming for 12-15 dKH, although RHF continually addressed that point, encouraging people to aim for NSW levels instead. That always made more sense to me.
Fair enough, but the recommended range here (8-11 dKH), which is the same as I see often recommnded, is still well in excess of NSW. Mean alkalinity in the mixed layer in the tropics is ~2.35 meq/L (= 6.6 dKH), and varies from ~6.1-6.9 dKH when you factor in regional variation in salinity.

Hence, 8-11 dKH is 21-67% higher than NSW levels. If such a large range, including 67% higher (11 dKH) is acceptable, why would 81% higher (12 dKH) or 97% higher (13 dKH) be a threshold to which or above which we dare not tread?

I don’t mean to be a bugger here, I’m just not sure this is a logical position for us to adopt


Quote:
Originally posted by melev
The reason for the higher alk was that that, plus 6500K lighting, would result in very fast growth. The risk wasn't enough to derail that idea for many, which was that a precipitation event could occur. The tank would look like it was snowing in it, and alk & ca would bottom out quickly, leaving the hobbyist scrambling to get parameters back in line.
But the alkalinity is only part of what determines whether one gets a ‘whiting’ like that or not. Net abiotic precipitation of CaCO3, as aragonite, is possible when the aragonite saturation state (Omega-arag) rises above 1.0. In standard sea water (35 ppt, 25 C, 1 atm, total alk. = 2300 ueq/kg, [Ca++] = 10.28 mmol/kg, pHnist = 8.20) Omega-arag = 3.48. All else equal, Omega-arag increases linearly with an increase in alkalinity. An increase to 11 dKH yields Omega-arag = 5.90; an increase to 13 dKH yields Omega-arag = 7.00.

Whitings typically occur when Omega-arag is in the neighborhood of 15-30. We’d have to raise alkalinity quite high to produce a whiting under otherwise normal conditions. Usually it takes a large increase in pH to get to those conditions…or a massive overdose of calcium or alkalinity…or a combination.

For instance, to reach Omega-arag = 15.0 at 11 dKH we have to raise the pH to 8.855 (otherwise normal conditions). At 13 dKH we have to raise pH to 8.695 to get Omega-arag = 15.0—that’s a difference, but we have to raise pH way out of the normal range either way.

I suppose the difficulty I’m having is with the treatment of 11 or 12 dKH as a threshold. I don’t see any reason to do so. It may be preferable to shoot for a range of 8-11 dKH for practical reasons, but if 11 dKH is good, how can we reasonably say that 12 dKH is bad?

Quote:
Originally posted by melev
I guess the best analogy is running your muscle car on the red line (RPMs) all the time, knowing you're running hot and running fast, hopefully long enough to win before your engine blew out.
Fair enough. I’d submit then, if we consider 2000-3000 RPMs fine and start to see all heck break loose in the neighborhood of 5000+ RPMs, does that make 3050-3100 RPMs necessarily that much cause for concern?

As I said, just picking your brain. Much appreciated

Chris


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Unread 02/09/2009, 05:16 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally posted by melev
The general rule is to only dose what you can test for.

You have the right idea about the key ingredients. These are what I watch:

pH (just a glance to see that it is within target range of 8.0 and up)
Alkalinity
Calcium
Magnesium
Salinity (re-calibrate any measuring device to make sure it is accurate)
temperature (stability is key, I try to avoid more than a 2 degree fluctuation)
Nitrate should be as low as possible (under 10ppm)
Phosphate should be as low as possible (.03ppm or less)
thank you : ) reef centrals mad i wish i knew about it earlier!


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Unread 02/09/2009, 05:18 AM   #280
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Originally posted by gary faulkner
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Unread 03/31/2009, 10:06 PM   #281
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If CA+ and alk. are within normal limits, does mag. naturally stay within the 1500 range if using natural salt water for H2O changes. Is dosing the only way to keep your levels.


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Unread 03/31/2009, 10:59 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally posted by JB NY
First you need to understand that the test kits we use are not 100% accurate. A kit that costs under $50 is pretty good but I think that real labs use stuff that cost 10x what we pay.
I am in the process of reading this string, but I saw this and I wanted to see if I can add some value:

I worked in a lab at a large public aquarium for about 2 years. I ditched my hobbyist test kits for the "professional" equipment shortly after using the equipment and seeing the difference. You can get set up with professional equipment to test ALK and Cal for much less than you think.

www.hach.com will sell you a digital titrator (1690001) for $125. It will last you a lifetime. Or you can buy a really nice one on Ebay right now for $50. Do a search for digital titrator. They will sell you 100 powder pillows for ALK (94399) and Cal (94799) for less than $14 per pack. You can buy the titration cartridge for Alk (1438801) and CAL (1439901) for less than $15 each and a bottle of potassium hydroxide (28232H) for less than $10. I got a stir plate on Ebay for less than $50 (search "stir plate" on ebay, there's one on there now for $10). The key here is that you can be set up with professional equipment, doing digital testing, for about $200 and then refill supplies are far cheaper than buying test kits or test kit refills.

Digital testing vs counting drops and holding up color strips? No comparison.


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Unread 04/01/2009, 07:47 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeus2
If CA+ and alk. are within normal limits, does mag. naturally stay within the 1500 range if using natural salt water for H2O changes. Is dosing the only way to keep your levels.
our systems are really closed ecosystems--not open reefs. Therefore if the demand for ca alk and mag increases due to what you have added to your tank (corals, clams ect) then you have to dose to keep those levels up. Mag usually is easier to maintain because it is used up in a smaller proportion to alk.
All three are easier to maintain if you are selective in the salt mix you use.
Here's a chart:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1287118


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Unread 04/01/2009, 08:15 AM   #284
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Wow! I just got done reading this string from start to finish and I want to thank everyone for participating and adding to my education. The whole lawn gnome, wreath, yule log, christmas tree stand, etc. stuff was a little annoying, but I got through it ok.

I am running a calcium yule log and kalk in my r/o top off and I have had trouble maintaining consistent levels. Apparently, after reading this string, this could be due to low mg levels. I don't know, because I do not test or dose mg. I can't find a decent test kit for mg, only the count the drops, hold the sample up to a color strip type test kit. If I can't test it, I don't dose it. While my lawn gnomes are doing ok, they are not showing near as much growth as I think that they should. My lighting is good, my nitrites, nitrates, and phosphates are very low, and I have no lack of flow, so I have to believe that my cal, alk, mg are getting in the way. An interesting statement made in one of the posts, which I now can't find, talked about the mg usage of lawn gnomes and lawn gnomeine algae. To paraphrase, lawn gnomes use very little mg, but lawn gnomeine sucks it up. Oddly enough, I have a big problem with lawn gnomeine overrunning my tank right now, see picture below. I am at the point of picking up a couple of urchins to deal with the lawn gnomeine. I figured the lawn gnomeine was a big calcium drain, but it never occurred to me that it could also be such a mg drain. I am traveling now, but when I get home, I will be buying a mg test kit and doing some mg dosing.

Am I thinking right or am I overlooking something else?

p.s. You can click on my red house for current tank stats.





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Unread 04/01/2009, 11:44 AM   #285
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Best post ever! I hope it stays like that forever.

And yes, you are thinking correctly. Magnesium is important, and needs to be dosed accordingly.


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Unread 04/01/2009, 12:30 PM   #286
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BTW

I have kept the level of mag up for about three weeks to 1400ppm.
I am noticing a difference in the growth and health of my corals

thanks for the tip Melev


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Unread 04/01/2009, 12:31 PM   #287
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Good to know. Lawn Gnomes are made up of calcium, and for growth, they need a little Mg from time to time.


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Unread 04/01/2009, 12:48 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally posted by melev
Good to know. Lawn Gnomes are made up of calcium, and for growth, they need a little Mg from time to time.
Marc, I thought it was needed more then time to time.

I read it either earlier on this thread or maybe in one of Randy's articles that it is used in a specific ratio along with carbonates(alk)
Although in a very small ratio.


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Unread 04/01/2009, 12:48 PM   #289
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Here's the other thing I learned, that I forgot to say:

I added dolomite to my yule log jingle bells so that I could add mg that way. However, apparently, the 6.5 pH that we use to disolve the calcium from aragonite is not low enough to disolve the mg from dolomite. I have also heard people say that there is mg in the crushed lawn gnome that adds mg to the system via the yule log, but apparently this is not true either. The calcium in the arm will dissolve at 6.5, but the mg will not. Very interesting.


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Unread 04/01/2009, 12:57 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Marc, I thought it was needed more then time to time.

I read it either earlier on this thread or maybe in one of Randy's articles that it is used in a specific ratio along with carbonates(alk)
Although in a very small ratio.
What article are you talking about? I've never seen Randy do anything on Lawn Gnomes.


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Unread 04/01/2009, 06:04 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally posted by melev
What article are you talking about? I've never seen Randy do anything on Lawn Gnomes.
for the protection of my gnome friends I can't say--these guys are really upset with the attention they are getting on here----everytime that happens one of them turns up missing.


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Unread 04/01/2009, 06:23 PM   #292
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You say missing, I say lab rat testing by RHF.

He has yet to publish anything definitive. I think he's worried about litigation by the gnome brethren.


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Unread 04/02/2009, 12:15 PM   #293
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Currently, I am dosing kalk through my top off, which is a LitermeterIII set to the current rate of evaporation and my reservoir is a 5 gallon jug. My rate of evaporation is 4.5 gallons per day, so I have to change the jugs daily. Not optimal, as I travel often and this requires my wife to have to change the top off jugs. She sometimes forgets. $#^@*!!!!! I have a 65 gallon spray tank for my R/O reserve set up in my fish room and then I have a 45 gallon rubbermaid trash can that I use to mix kalk with the R/O. I have a air stone in the can and I wait until the kalk settles and then I fill the top off jugs with the clear water. What I just started doing on Sunday, prior to reading this string, was adding 100 ml of alk (sodium bicarbonate) to the jugs, in order to keep the alk up. When I get home, I will add mg and nix the sodium bicarbonate and hopefully just the reactor effluent and the kalk will keep everything in check. If anyone sees any room for improvement or tweaks, I am wide open.

Ideally, I would like to lose the jugs and put a 40 gallon reservoir on top of my set up. The way my tank is set up, there are book shelves on each side of the tank and hood, so the weight can be supported if I put the reservoir on top. I have an 18ft ceiling above, so there's room. I live in a city town home with no basement and no way to plumb this to my fish room. All off topic, I know, but just some reference for why I don't have this plumbed differently.


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Unread 04/02/2009, 12:39 PM   #294
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you have an airstone on the kalk reservoir? not a good idea.


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Unread 04/02/2009, 12:45 PM   #295
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In the mixing barrel, not in the reservoir.


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Unread 04/02/2009, 02:01 PM   #296
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where you mix it with the kalk?


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Unread 04/02/2009, 02:03 PM   #297
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Hence the name "mixing barrel".


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Unread 04/02/2009, 02:24 PM   #298
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ok, you do not want to have an air stone in your kalk mixing barrel


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Unread 04/02/2009, 02:32 PM   #299
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Quote:
Originally posted by alrha
ok, you do not want to have an air stone in your kalk mixing barrel
Care to elaborate?


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Unread 04/02/2009, 02:34 PM   #300
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kalk should generally be in an airtight container - you do not want to aearate it as it will react with the CO2.


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