Looking for wild caught H. Erectus from New England

AquaticEngineer · 02/09/2012, 12:24 PM

I'm trying to find adult pairs of H. Erectus caught in cooler temperatures off the coast of Massachusetts or Maine.

If anyone knows of someone who does collecting in these areas please let me know.

Thanks

mtc1966 · 02/09/2012, 12:49 PM

just wondering why you want wild caught ?

AquaticEngineer · 02/09/2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtc1966

just wondering why you want wild caught ?

I'm hoping to get some that have generationally wintered over in and survived in the cooler temperatures in the Northwest Atlantic.

I don't want any captive bred ones because they almost all have been kept consistantly in warmer water or the brood stock was collected in warmer waters around Florida usually.

WallysWorld · 02/09/2012, 02:41 PM

I have northern H. erectus captive/tank bred/raised they are first generation from brood stock that was caught of the coast of Long Island NY. I have the brood stack and are actively breeding. Next batch will be ready in 30 to 40 days.
Tanks range from 68 to 72 deg.

-Walter

DanU · 02/09/2012, 10:19 PM

You can extend your range down to New Jersey. Waters are cool there as well. Getting specimens that originate from Long Island Sound will be the easiest to find. Most of the ones off New England and Maine are brought up on traps as bycatch and released. They can be hard to find up there as they seem to have a tendency to be found in deeper water.
They seem to be easier to find around Long Island Sound and Barnegat Bay

F1's from Walter would be easier to keep than WC and likely have a better success for the long term as they are already conditioned for captivity.

Dan

AquaticEngineer · 02/09/2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WallysWorld

I have northern H. erectus captive/tank bred/raised they are first generation from brood stock that was caught of the coast of Long Island NY. I have the brood stack and are actively breeding. Next batch will be ready in 30 to 40 days.
Tanks range from 68 to 72 deg.

-Walter

Thanks, I will keep you in mind if I'm unable to track down any seahorses that are coming from 50 - 60 degree waters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanU

You can extend your range down to New Jersey. Waters are cool there as well. Getting specimens that originate from Long Island Sound will be the easiest to find. Most of the ones off New England and Maine are brought up on traps as bycatch and released. They can be hard to find up there as they seem to have a tendency to be found in deeper water.
They seem to be easier to find around Long Island Sound and Barnegat Bay

F1's from Walter would be easier to keep than WC and likely have a better success for the long term as they are already conditioned for captivity.

Dan

I'd like to try and get some from the coolest temperatures that they occur in. I've been talking with a guy who dives and has a boat out of Massachusetts, hopefully he can find me some as well as some of the other fish and iverts I've been looking for.

If they were used to being in much cooler temps I'd be all over getting some CB babies, but I keep the rest of my tanks much cooler than what most people are breeding seahorses in currently. That's why I want to find some that have been living year round in areas where the water temp rarely gets above 60F.

WC shouldn't be a problem as I have an unlimited supply of live foods to offer them in different sizes being that I can collect what ever I need from the coastal areas here.

mintcond · 02/10/2012, 02:49 AM

Another thing is that if you get them from a breeder or tank raised them eat frozen mysis which will be alot better for you since you don't need to feed them live mysis all the time.

mintcond · 02/10/2012, 02:49 AM

It is illegal in the U.S.A. to catch seahorses. There is a huge fine for that. Not worth it just but them from a breeder.

mintcond · 02/10/2012, 02:51 AM

If you start with tank raised you will save not only money but the seahorses life as well.

DanU · 02/10/2012, 06:34 AM

Quote:

It is illegal in the U.S.A. to catch seahorses. There is a huge fine for that. Not worth it just but them from a breeder.

I don't know about that. In Florida, you can legally take them if you have a recreational fishing license. Since they are a restricted species, there is a bag limit. To collect them for a profit, you must have a Collectors License.
I don't know of any state that has laws that make it illegal to collect them. They are protected under CITES but that is for international trade, not within the country borders. Even with CITES, collectors are able to ship internationally, they just have to apply for a permit each time. Oddly enough, Fish & Wildlife make it more difficult to ship captive bred than wild caught.

Dan

WallysWorld · 02/10/2012, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mintcond

It is illegal in the U.S.A. to catch seahorses. There is a huge fine for that. Not worth it just but them from a breeder.

They just passes law here in ny prohibiting the collecting of seahorses this fall. Not sure about surrounding states?

DanU · 02/10/2012, 08:33 AM

You are correct. Looked it up. It does prohibit harvests for commercial purposes but doesn't completely eliminate collection.

Dan

WallysWorld · 02/10/2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanU

You are correct. Looked it up. It does prohibit harvests for commercial purposes but doesn't completely eliminate collection.

Dan

That makes sense I heard there was some gray area.

AquaticEngineer · 02/10/2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mintcond

Another thing is that if you get them from a breeder or tank raised them eat frozen mysis which will be alot better for you since you don't need to feed them live mysis all the time.

I have access to as much live food as I can net, so no worries there. My pipefish I caught were eating frozen the day after they got put I the tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mintcond

It is illegal in the U.S.A. to catch seahorses. There is a huge fine for that. Not worth it just but them from a breeder.

not true. Depends on how and where you collect them and what permits you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mintcond

If you start with tank raised you will save not only money but the seahorses life as well.

How does this save me any money? Most seahorses are outrageously priced unless you get a hookup on them. Saves the seahorses life? Seriously?

ackee · 02/10/2012, 03:13 PM

I very much doubt that H. erectus overwinters in Maine. My understanding of the literature is that a few may overwinter in protected bays like LI Sound and New Jersey's Barnegat Bay, but that the vast majority of seahorses found north of Maryland are Gulf Stream strays, carried by currents from more southerly origins. I know of no records documenting winter caught seahorses north of Cape Cod, and records of winter caught seahorses north of Cheasapeake Bay are rare.

I've observed H erectus seahorses in Barnegat bay in late Fall, when water temps drop into the 50s. They become dormant, curl into a rigid c shape, and are carried on currents. They do not feed or move on their own at all. I'm very familiar with local (NJ, NY, Conn) H erectus seahorses. I've observed them while scuba diving over the past 40 years and occasionally kept methodical records. I still collect a few for my aquaria and have in the past successfully bred and raised the fry.

Commercial fisherman who net collect in local waters see many seahorses during the summer and fall, but not in spring and winter. Commercial bait collectors who drag fine mesh nets in local bays tell me they see no seahorses when they begin gathering grass shrimp in May. They start showing up in small numbers in June, and in large numbers by July, depending on the offshore winds and currents. When north winds push large lenses of Gulf Stream water inshore, seahorses suddenly appear.

I spoke to some lobstermen in Maine a few years ago. Catching a seahorse there was a red letter day, a very unusual summer only event, never in winter.

Collecting seahorses for personal use is perfectly legal in the US. There are restrictions regarding numbers collected and in some places commercial sale is illegal. Importation from foreign sources is not permitted, the reason transportation of captive bred seahorses is sometimes difficult. In any case, the numbers of seahorses killed for use in TCM eclipses aquarium collecting's totals by a factor of at least ten thousand to one. I've seen large containers filled with hundreds of dried seahorses in ethnic markets.

DanU · 02/10/2012, 07:51 PM

What is interesting is that there are some definite physical differences between the northern and southern erectus. There are also some DNA differences but not enough to say different species. Also the fry behave differently as well.

In December 2010 a lobsterman pulled up a small H. erectus clinging to one of the lobster pots. This was in Ipswich Harbor, MA. Water temps were at around 45 degrees. The seahorse was donated to the New England Aquarium were it was brought up to 60 degrees. This was the second seahorse this lobsterman pulled, the first was 3 months prior.

According to a report out of Chesapeake Bay, they found H. erectus in a similar motionless state during the winter months.

Another interesting point, some of the hobbyists in the North report H. erectus taken from northern waters are most active with water temps in the 60's. We have seen H. erectus from Florida begin to slow down significantly when temps drop below 68.

I am sure some H. erectus do end up in the Gulf Stream. There has even been a reporting of a H. erectus being found in the Azores a couple of years ago. I don't believe all the H. erectus in the north are from a spring migration from being caught in the Gulf Stream Express.

Dan

DanU · 02/10/2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Most seahorses are outrageously priced unless you get a hookup on hem.

There is a reason why so many companies have given up on breeding seahorses. It is very difficult to turn a profit breeding them. Even successful hobbyist breeding from home with minimal overhead are finding this out.

Unless you personally collect the animals or have an experience friend collect them, survival rates with WC can be rather dismal.

Dan

ackee · 02/10/2012, 10:03 PM

Oceanic dispersal systems are very poorly understood. H erectus in Barnegat Bay are often able to select their preferred temperature because of major temp differences in small contiguous areas. There are a number of reasons for this, including the outfall of a nuclear power plant and the nature of the bay itself, but this is irrelevant. It is very clear from what I have observed over the years that given a choice erectus seem to prefer the high 60s F to low 70s. They will congergate in that 67 to 72 band every time, assuming comparable cover, eel grass and food. They become sluggish in the high 50s and dormant, more or less, in the low 50s.

I suspect that there are specific geographic populations that account for the genetic and behavioral variability you mention. H erectus in places like Tampa Bay, which I am familiar with, are probably a more static inbred population, with very limited recruitment from the outside. They also have a longer growing period than their northern cousins, and markedly different habitats.

It's possible that the sudden appearance of hordes of seahorses in summer in local northern waters reflects primarily a native self-sustaining population, but I doubt it. Barnegat Bay, my home base, is shallow, heavily bulkheaded and limited in terms of suitable habitat. All sorts of mechanized fishing, including excavation of crabs wintering in deep water mud bottoms fails to turn up a single seahorse. Trawling eelgrass for grass shrimp will produce zero seahorses in May. Where can they be? The bay is relatively small and has been thoroughly examined and explored. There is almost no cover, no vegatation in winter. But anything is possible. We know so little about so many things.

I have seen seahorses in substantial numbers a couple of times far off shore, riding currents that are wamer than the surrounding waters, heading west toward land. Once, about 50 miles off Barnegat Light I was able to snorkel in a giant patch of clear blue water. The water beneath me was about 400 feet deep, and I could see down into it more than 10 meters. There were floating weed patches, a few Loggerheads, all sorts of wonderful things. The water was about 70F in June. I saw a shoal of C. shoepfi, Spiny Boxfish, possible 100, all about an inch long, and numerous drifting seahorses, essentially planktonic, of various sizes, but mostly small and thin, perhaps 2 inches on average. Tiny Jacks, filefish, a bewildering variety of fishes. Schools of predators were having a field day. That was a magic experience I'll never forget. Seahorses, btw, are eagerly eaten by predator fishes.

On the other hand the bay is alive with tiny newborn seahorses all summer long as the resident seahorses, much more active than the ones I see in Florida, mate incessantly, producing at least three batches of young over the summer/early fall. There are places where simply filling a 5 gallon bucket will get you a tiny seahorse or two as often as not.

It could be that the physical differences between Tampa Bay and Barnegat Bay erectus reflect different populations because those found in the north are recruited from areas other than Florida and the US east coast. Perhaps the outer edge of the stream, the Bahamas, even the Sargasso. Nobody can say for certain, but it's a fascinating question.

Nevertheless, I'm reasonably sure there are no permanent populations north of Long Island and Rhode Island. Whether they exist over the winter in places like Long Island Sound and Barnegat Bay is unknown. Perhaps some do, and others, related to the same genetic stock, are carried in from offshore every summer. So much beauty and mystery in the sea.

DanU · 02/11/2012, 10:58 AM

Great stuff! Much of which I agree. Though I am still of the belief that many of the seahorses found in the north are native to the area. Maybe not as far up as Maine but most likely from the Buzzards Bay south.

I do believe seahorses can and do travel longer distances than what is commonly believed. Granted there are static populations such as the example you gave and locally in the Indian River Lagoon. But I have also noted that after the 3 hurricanes that hit here and the unusually cold winter that had such large fish kills, the normal habitat for seahorses, especially H. zosterae was pretty much wiped out. The following year, we were able to find what appeared as a normal population. During certain periods where conditions are adverse, they seem to disappear and year reappear as soon as the conditions improve.

Definitely a lot yet to be learned. Part of what makes it so interesting and fun.

Dan

AquaticEngineer · 02/11/2012, 11:58 AM

My planned collection area is in and around Buzzards Bay, so hopefully some can be found there.

ackee · 02/11/2012, 02:16 PM

Buzzards Bay and adjacent waters are an area strongly affected by the Gulf Stream, which tends to push water toward Rhode Island, creating longshore currents that terminate exactly there. A map will illustrate the reasons for this phenomenon. The Stream almost collides with Conn. and R.I., and currents it creates run north along the coast until they are absorbed into Buzzards Bay. The result is that Buzzards Bay, which is really the inside of the Cape Cod curve, and the islands of Martha's Vinyard and Nantucket receive numerous Gulf stream strays, even into the winter. There is a program on Cape Cod that devotes itself to checking the beaches in late September into October every morning to rescue stranded sea turtles, mostly Ridleys, which wash up in large numbers onto Cape beaches, shocked by the suddenly cold water. These turtles have ridden the stream, as do many, many tropicals and semi-tropical fishes. The only Caribbean Blue Tang I have ever seen north of the Carolinas was in a jetty on Marthas Vinyard.

You may find seahorses in Buzzards Bay, though it will not be easy, and they very possibly may have been carried there by currents created by the Gulf Stream.

AquaticEngineer · 02/11/2012, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ackee

You may find seahorses in Buzzards Bay, though it will not be easy, and they very possibly may have been carried there by currents created by the Gulf Stream.

Do you think I would have better luck finding a wintered over specimen on the other side of the cape than?

I know this may not be the case but ideally I want to find specimens that show physical differences from that of H. Erectus found further south. This is why my search area will be at the northern most known ranges.

I don't want to take this thread to far off coarse from H. Erectus, but what pipefish species are people finding along side or in the same areas as seahorses this far north?

ackee · 02/11/2012, 03:19 PM

The only Pipefish I am familiar with from this area is the Northern Pipefish, Syngnathus fuscus.

The H. erectus found in NJ and all points north seem to me to be identical, generally regarded as the northern form of the species. Compared to the southern form, it does look and, especially, act differenly, being a more aggressive hunter, a better swimmer and more active. I've seen them crawling slowly forward in a strong inlet cuuent in 30 feet of water, flat to the mussel bed substrate, inching forward by careful placement of the tail against a current that I find difficult. Very impressive. They will pursue and hunt down prey, and very seldom employ the ambush hunting more typical of the same species I've watched in Tampa Bay. The northern form is also generally smaller, and stays that way, never in my experience reaching the gigantic proportions of their Florida cousins. I've kept northern erectus as long as 4 years, and while they got large, they never reached Floridian proportions, despite being active and well fed all year long.

The several dozen erectus I've seen up close in New England seem to be the same fish as the NJ erectus I'm extremely familiar with, having seen many, certainly several thousand, over the past 40+ years. I grew up on the water and was exploring the bay with kiddie goggles when Eisenhower was president and there were only about ten elements on the Periodic Table. OK, maybe a few more.

AquaticEngineer · 02/18/2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ackee

The only Pipefish I am familiar with from this area is the Northern Pipefish, Syngnathus fuscus.

If you find any in the next couple months let me know

Quote:

Originally Posted by ackee

The H. erectus found in NJ and all points north seem to me to be identical, generally regarded as the northern form of the species. Compared to the southern form, it does look and, especially, act differenly, being a more aggressive hunter, a better swimmer and more active. I've seen them crawling slowly forward in a strong inlet cuuent in 30 feet of water, flat to the mussel bed substrate, inching forward by careful placement of the tail against a current that I find difficult. Very impressive. They will pursue and hunt down prey, and very seldom employ the ambush hunting more typical of the same species I've watched in Tampa Bay. The northern form is also generally smaller, and stays that way, never in my experience reaching the gigantic proportions of their Florida cousins. I've kept northern erectus as long as 4 years, and while they got large, they never reached Floridian proportions, despite being active and well fed all year long.

The several dozen erectus I've seen up close in New England seem to be the same fish as the NJ erectus I'm extremely familiar with, having seen many, certainly several thousand, over the past 40+ years. I grew up on the water and was exploring the bay with kiddie goggles when Eisenhower was president and there were only about ten elements on the Periodic Table. OK, maybe a few more.

Do you ever do any collecting out there? I would love to work out some kind of east coast/west coast trade

ackee · 02/19/2012, 11:31 AM

I do a lot of collecting, A.E., here in NJ, and in the tropics. I seldom travel anywhere near the ocean without my handmade vinyl collecting nets. It's something I've been doing for so long it's ingrained, almost a compulsion.

I enjoy collecting at least as much as keeping aquaria. I'm semi-retired now, so I travel often. When on warm water holiday I usually have a makeshift box bag aquarium in my room. I have a kit consisting of voltage converters, box bags, mini air pumps, etc. that travels with me. I've had interesting experiences with the TSA, but that's another topic.

I usually release what I collect. The last fish I brought home was the Spotted Drum in my personal profile pics. That was more than 2 years ago. The fish is doing extremely well, a magnificent creature seldom seen in the pet business.

I'll be in the Caribbean again in three weeks. There are a couple of interesting inverts I might bring home, but thats it. I sometimes collect things in NJ for friends, and for public aquariums with which I've had long standing connections, but I do so less and less. I've kept fish alive and healthy for long periods, only to see them killed by bad management.

I had a lovely Short Bigeye for almost 2 years that I recently donated to a public aquarium when it got very large. Their quarantine protocol killed it. They used medications which damage that delicate eye. The fish was absolutely, glowingly healthy. I was furious. Many of these professionals can be stupidly rigid. They keep great records documenting the things they kill.

Many of the tropical Gulf Stream strays I collect locally will die anyway when water temps drop, but it's disturbing nonetheless to see them killed by people who view them as nothing more than ornaments, as objects. I feel deeply responsible for any creature I have in my care, but especially so for those I personally remove from nature.

Pipe fish are extremely easy to collect. Their numbers are diminishing as pollution and human activity destroy the eel grass beds, but they are still around. The local Northern Pipefish are not easy to maintain long term, though. Mostly a diet issue, I suspect. Water temps need to be fairly cool, so I think a chiller is probably a good idea.

02/09/2012, 12:24 PM	#1
AquaticEngineer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Damascus, OR. USA Posts: 413	Looking for wild caught H. Erectus from New England I'm trying to find adult pairs of H. Erectus caught in cooler temperatures off the coast of Massachusetts or Maine. If anyone knows of someone who does collecting in these areas please let me know. Thanks

02/09/2012, 12:49 PM	#2
mtc1966 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: middletown,ct Posts: 6,528	just wondering why you want wild caught ? __________________ 65g seahorse tank 20g sump with a reef octopus skimmer ,tlf 150 reactor, red sea ozone generator controller,cpr hob fuge with light and 2 China led lights one 42x1 w and one 24x3 w. occupied by 4 ecectus seahorses a couple small gobies and cuc. Current Tank Info: 58g main with 20g sump

02/09/2012, 02:41 PM	#4
WallysWorld Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Port Jefferson Station Posts: 1,855	I have northern H. erectus captive/tank bred/raised they are first generation from brood stock that was caught of the coast of Long Island NY. I have the brood stack and are actively breeding. Next batch will be ready in 30 to 40 days. Tanks range from 68 to 72 deg. -Walter __________________ SCIENTIA EST POTENTIA! Current Tank Info: 120 gal 4x2x2 Reef, 4 x 160W Kessil's, Refuge, Korallin Calcium Reactor, ASM G3 Skimmer and Refuge.

02/09/2012, 10:19 PM	#5
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	You can extend your range down to New Jersey. Waters are cool there as well. Getting specimens that originate from Long Island Sound will be the easiest to find. Most of the ones off New England and Maine are brought up on traps as bycatch and released. They can be hard to find up there as they seem to have a tendency to be found in deeper water. They seem to be easier to find around Long Island Sound and Barnegat Bay F1's from Walter would be easier to keep than WC and likely have a better success for the long term as they are already conditioned for captivity. Dan

02/10/2012, 02:49 AM	#7
mintcond Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 27	Another thing is that if you get them from a breeder or tank raised them eat frozen mysis which will be alot better for you since you don't need to feed them live mysis all the time.

02/10/2012, 02:51 AM	#9
mintcond Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 27	If you start with tank raised you will save not only money but the seahorses life as well.

02/10/2012, 08:33 AM	#12
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	You are correct. Looked it up. It does prohibit harvests for commercial purposes but doesn't completely eliminate collection. Dan

02/10/2012, 03:13 PM	#15
ackee Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 421	I very much doubt that H. erectus overwinters in Maine. My understanding of the literature is that a few may overwinter in protected bays like LI Sound and New Jersey's Barnegat Bay, but that the vast majority of seahorses found north of Maryland are Gulf Stream strays, carried by currents from more southerly origins. I know of no records documenting winter caught seahorses north of Cape Cod, and records of winter caught seahorses north of Cheasapeake Bay are rare. I've observed H erectus seahorses in Barnegat bay in late Fall, when water temps drop into the 50s. They become dormant, curl into a rigid c shape, and are carried on currents. They do not feed or move on their own at all. I'm very familiar with local (NJ, NY, Conn) H erectus seahorses. I've observed them while scuba diving over the past 40 years and occasionally kept methodical records. I still collect a few for my aquaria and have in the past successfully bred and raised the fry. Commercial fisherman who net collect in local waters see many seahorses during the summer and fall, but not in spring and winter. Commercial bait collectors who drag fine mesh nets in local bays tell me they see no seahorses when they begin gathering grass shrimp in May. They start showing up in small numbers in June, and in large numbers by July, depending on the offshore winds and currents. When north winds push large lenses of Gulf Stream water inshore, seahorses suddenly appear. I spoke to some lobstermen in Maine a few years ago. Catching a seahorse there was a red letter day, a very unusual summer only event, never in winter. Collecting seahorses for personal use is perfectly legal in the US. There are restrictions regarding numbers collected and in some places commercial sale is illegal. Importation from foreign sources is not permitted, the reason transportation of captive bred seahorses is sometimes difficult. In any case, the numbers of seahorses killed for use in TCM eclipses aquarium collecting's totals by a factor of at least ten thousand to one. I've seen large containers filled with hundreds of dried seahorses in ethnic markets.

02/10/2012, 07:51 PM	#16
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	What is interesting is that there are some definite physical differences between the northern and southern erectus. There are also some DNA differences but not enough to say different species. Also the fry behave differently as well. In December 2010 a lobsterman pulled up a small H. erectus clinging to one of the lobster pots. This was in Ipswich Harbor, MA. Water temps were at around 45 degrees. The seahorse was donated to the New England Aquarium were it was brought up to 60 degrees. This was the second seahorse this lobsterman pulled, the first was 3 months prior. According to a report out of Chesapeake Bay, they found H. erectus in a similar motionless state during the winter months. Another interesting point, some of the hobbyists in the North report H. erectus taken from northern waters are most active with water temps in the 60's. We have seen H. erectus from Florida begin to slow down significantly when temps drop below 68. I am sure some H. erectus do end up in the Gulf Stream. There has even been a reporting of a H. erectus being found in the Azores a couple of years ago. I don't believe all the H. erectus in the north are from a spring migration from being caught in the Gulf Stream Express. Dan

02/10/2012, 10:03 PM	#18
ackee Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 421	Oceanic dispersal systems are very poorly understood. H erectus in Barnegat Bay are often able to select their preferred temperature because of major temp differences in small contiguous areas. There are a number of reasons for this, including the outfall of a nuclear power plant and the nature of the bay itself, but this is irrelevant. It is very clear from what I have observed over the years that given a choice erectus seem to prefer the high 60s F to low 70s. They will congergate in that 67 to 72 band every time, assuming comparable cover, eel grass and food. They become sluggish in the high 50s and dormant, more or less, in the low 50s. I suspect that there are specific geographic populations that account for the genetic and behavioral variability you mention. H erectus in places like Tampa Bay, which I am familiar with, are probably a more static inbred population, with very limited recruitment from the outside. They also have a longer growing period than their northern cousins, and markedly different habitats. It's possible that the sudden appearance of hordes of seahorses in summer in local northern waters reflects primarily a native self-sustaining population, but I doubt it. Barnegat Bay, my home base, is shallow, heavily bulkheaded and limited in terms of suitable habitat. All sorts of mechanized fishing, including excavation of crabs wintering in deep water mud bottoms fails to turn up a single seahorse. Trawling eelgrass for grass shrimp will produce zero seahorses in May. Where can they be? The bay is relatively small and has been thoroughly examined and explored. There is almost no cover, no vegatation in winter. But anything is possible. We know so little about so many things. I have seen seahorses in substantial numbers a couple of times far off shore, riding currents that are wamer than the surrounding waters, heading west toward land. Once, about 50 miles off Barnegat Light I was able to snorkel in a giant patch of clear blue water. The water beneath me was about 400 feet deep, and I could see down into it more than 10 meters. There were floating weed patches, a few Loggerheads, all sorts of wonderful things. The water was about 70F in June. I saw a shoal of C. shoepfi, Spiny Boxfish, possible 100, all about an inch long, and numerous drifting seahorses, essentially planktonic, of various sizes, but mostly small and thin, perhaps 2 inches on average. Tiny Jacks, filefish, a bewildering variety of fishes. Schools of predators were having a field day. That was a magic experience I'll never forget. Seahorses, btw, are eagerly eaten by predator fishes. On the other hand the bay is alive with tiny newborn seahorses all summer long as the resident seahorses, much more active than the ones I see in Florida, mate incessantly, producing at least three batches of young over the summer/early fall. There are places where simply filling a 5 gallon bucket will get you a tiny seahorse or two as often as not. It could be that the physical differences between Tampa Bay and Barnegat Bay erectus reflect different populations because those found in the north are recruited from areas other than Florida and the US east coast. Perhaps the outer edge of the stream, the Bahamas, even the Sargasso. Nobody can say for certain, but it's a fascinating question. Nevertheless, I'm reasonably sure there are no permanent populations north of Long Island and Rhode Island. Whether they exist over the winter in places like Long Island Sound and Barnegat Bay is unknown. Perhaps some do, and others, related to the same genetic stock, are carried in from offshore every summer. So much beauty and mystery in the sea.

02/11/2012, 10:58 AM	#19
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	Great stuff! Much of which I agree. Though I am still of the belief that many of the seahorses found in the north are native to the area. Maybe not as far up as Maine but most likely from the Buzzards Bay south. I do believe seahorses can and do travel longer distances than what is commonly believed. Granted there are static populations such as the example you gave and locally in the Indian River Lagoon. But I have also noted that after the 3 hurricanes that hit here and the unusually cold winter that had such large fish kills, the normal habitat for seahorses, especially H. zosterae was pretty much wiped out. The following year, we were able to find what appeared as a normal population. During certain periods where conditions are adverse, they seem to disappear and year reappear as soon as the conditions improve. Definitely a lot yet to be learned. Part of what makes it so interesting and fun. Dan

02/11/2012, 11:58 AM	#20
AquaticEngineer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Damascus, OR. USA Posts: 413	My planned collection area is in and around Buzzards Bay, so hopefully some can be found there.

02/11/2012, 02:16 PM	#21
ackee Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 421	Buzzards Bay and adjacent waters are an area strongly affected by the Gulf Stream, which tends to push water toward Rhode Island, creating longshore currents that terminate exactly there. A map will illustrate the reasons for this phenomenon. The Stream almost collides with Conn. and R.I., and currents it creates run north along the coast until they are absorbed into Buzzards Bay. The result is that Buzzards Bay, which is really the inside of the Cape Cod curve, and the islands of Martha's Vinyard and Nantucket receive numerous Gulf stream strays, even into the winter. There is a program on Cape Cod that devotes itself to checking the beaches in late September into October every morning to rescue stranded sea turtles, mostly Ridleys, which wash up in large numbers onto Cape beaches, shocked by the suddenly cold water. These turtles have ridden the stream, as do many, many tropicals and semi-tropical fishes. The only Caribbean Blue Tang I have ever seen north of the Carolinas was in a jetty on Marthas Vinyard. You may find seahorses in Buzzards Bay, though it will not be easy, and they very possibly may have been carried there by currents created by the Gulf Stream.

02/11/2012, 03:19 PM	#23
ackee Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 421	The only Pipefish I am familiar with from this area is the Northern Pipefish, Syngnathus fuscus. The H. erectus found in NJ and all points north seem to me to be identical, generally regarded as the northern form of the species. Compared to the southern form, it does look and, especially, act differenly, being a more aggressive hunter, a better swimmer and more active. I've seen them crawling slowly forward in a strong inlet cuuent in 30 feet of water, flat to the mussel bed substrate, inching forward by careful placement of the tail against a current that I find difficult. Very impressive. They will pursue and hunt down prey, and very seldom employ the ambush hunting more typical of the same species I've watched in Tampa Bay. The northern form is also generally smaller, and stays that way, never in my experience reaching the gigantic proportions of their Florida cousins. I've kept northern erectus as long as 4 years, and while they got large, they never reached Floridian proportions, despite being active and well fed all year long. The several dozen erectus I've seen up close in New England seem to be the same fish as the NJ erectus I'm extremely familiar with, having seen many, certainly several thousand, over the past 40+ years. I grew up on the water and was exploring the bay with kiddie goggles when Eisenhower was president and there were only about ten elements on the Periodic Table. OK, maybe a few more.

02/19/2012, 11:31 AM	#25
ackee Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 421	I do a lot of collecting, A.E., here in NJ, and in the tropics. I seldom travel anywhere near the ocean without my handmade vinyl collecting nets. It's something I've been doing for so long it's ingrained, almost a compulsion. I enjoy collecting at least as much as keeping aquaria. I'm semi-retired now, so I travel often. When on warm water holiday I usually have a makeshift box bag aquarium in my room. I have a kit consisting of voltage converters, box bags, mini air pumps, etc. that travels with me. I've had interesting experiences with the TSA, but that's another topic. I usually release what I collect. The last fish I brought home was the Spotted Drum in my personal profile pics. That was more than 2 years ago. The fish is doing extremely well, a magnificent creature seldom seen in the pet business. I'll be in the Caribbean again in three weeks. There are a couple of interesting inverts I might bring home, but thats it. I sometimes collect things in NJ for friends, and for public aquariums with which I've had long standing connections, but I do so less and less. I've kept fish alive and healthy for long periods, only to see them killed by bad management. I had a lovely Short Bigeye for almost 2 years that I recently donated to a public aquarium when it got very large. Their quarantine protocol killed it. They used medications which damage that delicate eye. The fish was absolutely, glowingly healthy. I was furious. Many of these professionals can be stupidly rigid. They keep great records documenting the things they kill. Many of the tropical Gulf Stream strays I collect locally will die anyway when water temps drop, but it's disturbing nonetheless to see them killed by people who view them as nothing more than ornaments, as objects. I feel deeply responsible for any creature I have in my care, but especially so for those I personally remove from nature. Pipe fish are extremely easy to collect. Their numbers are diminishing as pollution and human activity destroy the eel grass beds, but they are still around. The local Northern Pipefish are not easy to maintain long term, though. Mostly a diet issue, I suspect. Water temps need to be fairly cool, so I think a chiller is probably a good idea.