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Old 12/25/2003, 07:51 AM   #1
frankdreistein
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dosing vodka to bring down N and P

Hello,

There are some new articles in germany concerning the daily dosing of vodka.

This dosing of C should bring bacteria growth (bacteria plankton) that take up all the NO3 and the PO4, so it can be eaten by corals, sponges,.. or just be skimmed out of the tank.

An other aspect is to give the denitrifing bacteria the C they need.

You should start to dose more till there is a white bacteria film.
Then dose the half of this daily. NO3 and PO4 should come down to nearly zero.

The foam should get very hard.
And the skimmer only has to run, when there ist meassuring PO4, to bring it out. Or just run a smaller one.

Now you can bring in more nutrients with feeding Phytoplankton and very fine dry food (for gorgonians,..).

Anyone got experiences or opinions?

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Old 12/25/2003, 08:18 AM   #2
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I know someone who does daily doses of vodka, but not to their aquarium...


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Old 12/25/2003, 08:44 AM   #3
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I don't know about making the foam hard, but otherwise, many folks have tried similar things. Adding sugar might be a better approach since it is purer than vodka.

When I dosed sugar once, many of my corals turned brown. Probably zooxanthallae growing much faster.

One thing to be concerned with is low oxygen as the bacteria use O2 to metabolize the ethanol (or sugar).

So whatever you do, start very slowly.

In general, growing and harvesting macroalgae is likely to be a better approach. These articles describe other approaches:

Nitrate
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

Phosphorus
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2002/chem.htm


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Old 12/25/2003, 08:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Adding sugar might be a better approach since it is purer than vodka.
When I dosed sugar once, many of my corals turned brown. Probably zooxanthallae growing much faster.
What kind of dosing rates were people trying with the sugar? Nitrates stay low in my tank, but the PO4 are higher then I would like.
Joe


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Old 12/25/2003, 01:26 PM   #5
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I'm not sure. I just added a teaspoonful to a 90 gallon tank, and away it went.

So if you start with a 55 gallon drum, that's probably about right.

However, if you are limited by nitrate, then you might not get a bloom.


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Old 12/25/2003, 02:04 PM   #6
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In my case when dosing sugar (far less than what Randy used) I saw an adverse and reproducible effect on LPS corals.

In Holland some people use a sort of Vodka (Jenever) when they have a cyano bloom. It sometimes works and I think that it works in some cases by creating a bacteria bloom in the water column which compete for e.g. ammonia with the cyano.


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Old 12/26/2003, 12:06 AM   #7
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Hum, you can sure tell it is Chritmas and you guys have tipped one two many


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Old 12/26/2003, 03:32 AM   #8
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thanks for the reply.

It´s quite a hype here at the moment.

Let´s see what there will be left of it in a year or so.


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Old 12/26/2003, 05:07 AM   #9
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Let´s see what there will be left of it in a year or so.




Fish with liver problems?


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Old 12/26/2003, 05:38 AM   #10
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Just remember to dose aspirin every other day


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Old 01/06/2004, 12:24 AM   #11
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Anyone with updates on the Volka method???

Thanks,
Max


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Old 01/06/2004, 07:08 AM   #12
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Their still working off their hangovers


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Old 01/06/2004, 10:06 AM   #13
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Makes you wonder what scientific method was used to decide on vodka!

I think it's my Patriotic Duty to mention that since I've started dosing bourbon my hair algea has come under control, my pH is steady, it stopped snowing and I've a much better outlook on life.


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Old 01/06/2004, 04:09 PM   #14
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Hi Randy,

I would like to hear your thoughts from the reef chemistry point of view. Basically I did try this method late 2002 and during that time it was tried for 2 weeks and was force to put a stop to it. My tank has low nitrate of 1~2ppm and main problem was with the PO4. Well as nitrate is the limiting fact, infact I got a algae boon adding Volka. Amount of Volka as far less than what the german reefers recommended, I'm using 0.5ml of Volka per 100L of tank water. Well, I wonder if there isn't a lot of nitrate in the tank the method will not work; sort of a need to have the right ratio of Nitrate & PO4 to bring both down to zero? If not, no Bacteria Boom and you will end up adding C to bring up an algae?? ??????? Would like to hear your view about this.

Thanks,
Max

Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I'm not sure. I just added a teaspoonful to a 90 gallon tank, and away it went.

So if you start with a 55 gallon drum, that's probably about right.

However, if you are limited by nitrate, then you might not get a bloom.



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Old 01/06/2004, 05:23 PM   #15
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I'm not sure what to make of it. I didn't think that most algae would use ethanol from the water column, but maybe some will.

Anyone have an idea how it might have increased algae, except coincidence?


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Old 01/06/2004, 05:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I'm not sure what to make of it. I didn't think that most algae would use ethanol from the water column, but maybe some will.

Anyone have an idea how it might have increased algae, except coincidence?
Maybe something to do with the NO3 depletion leading to PO4 release as first discussed in:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=293640

I now have that article in a PDF file if interested.

That is, before it turned into a lecture in buttocks and aviation history
Joe


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Old 01/06/2004, 06:16 PM   #17
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Randy see these

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ed7e8b37a55aa0

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...fec27bc4076530

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...4f8608f08bff85

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...60b47b4d8353b2

Marine Chemistry

Treatise on Geochemistry. Vol. 6 The Oceans and Marine Geochemistry


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Last edited by Boomer; 01/06/2004 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 01/06/2004, 06:35 PM   #18
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OK, Boomer. Clue me in. What is that telling me about alcohol? I didn't find it mentioned.


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Old 01/06/2004, 06:39 PM   #19
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Maybe something to do with the NO3 depletion leading to PO4 release as first discussed in:

My understanding is that the phosphate release discussed there comes from phosphorus in the organics consumed by nitrate-based oxidation. If the carbon source driving the reaction has no phosphorus (as in vodka), then I don't see any phosphate being released. Perhaps I am misunderstanding where they claim the phosphorus comes from, however.


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Old 01/06/2004, 06:51 PM   #20
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What is that telling me about alcohol?



Nothing, maybe I should have mentioned here are some articles of itnerest to you on past subjects.You mean you didn't think that

By the way, bad day for Boomy in the mine. Backed over a $30,000, 2002 Ford F-250 Crew-Cab, with my big lodader TOTALED, bent and twisted the frame and flattened the right side-right rear door section.


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Old 01/06/2004, 06:53 PM   #21
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Backed over a $30,000, 2002 Ford F-250 Crew-Cab, with my big lodader TOTALED, bent and twisted the frame and flattened the right side-right rear door section.

Was your boss in it?

Nothing, maybe I should have mentioned here are some articles of itnerest to you on past subjects.You mean you didn't think that

I'll have to look at them again with a wider point of view.


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Old 01/06/2004, 09:14 PM   #22
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Was your boss in it?




Well, if he was, he wouldn't be here answering this post

Ok, here is the good thing. You have to go in for a drug test. You can't go back to work unitl it is tested neg. You still get payed the same, as if you were there So I'm off for at least 3 days, maybe 5 I'll call the lab and tell them to be realllllllly slow with the tests


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Old 01/06/2004, 11:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
My understanding is that the phosphate release discussed there comes from phosphorus in the organics consumed by nitrate-based oxidation. If the carbon source driving the reaction has no phosphorus (as in vodka), then I don't see any phosphate being released. Perhaps I am misunderstanding where they claim the phosphorus comes from, however. [/B]
I dunno, that's why I'm a askin' dis stuff in da first place
I thought they were talking about the nitrates that were produced were then broken down, and when the nitrates were gone, the fact that the nitrates were now gone would allow the the PO4 to be released.
Thanks,
Joe


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Old 01/07/2004, 12:13 AM   #24
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Volka & Ethanol Fueling Algae Growth

I was wondering in a specific tank condition where nitrate has been zero and with high PO4, naturally there will not be enough nitrate to strike a balance to encourage Bacteria growth for PO4 elimination. In this case, will the excess ethanol/volka, unused by bacteria be a source of algae growth?? Wonder what's the chemical composition of Volka & Ethanol, chances of these substance being a fuel for alage growth?

Regards,
Max

Quote:
Originally posted by Justjoe
I dunno, that's why I'm a askin' dis stuff in da first place
I thought they were talking about the nitrates that were produced were then broken down, and when the nitrates were gone, the fact that the nitrates were now gone would allow the the PO4 to be released.
Thanks,
Joe



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Old 01/07/2004, 06:28 AM   #25
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I was wondering in a specific tank condition where nitrate has been zero and with high PO4, naturally there will not be enough nitrate to strike a balance to encourage Bacteria growth for PO4 elimination.

Yes, that is quite true. If nitrate were removed in a DSB or a denitrator, for example.

In this case, will the excess ethanol/volka, unused by bacteria be a source of algae growth?? Wonder what's the chemical composition of Volka & Ethanol, chances of these substance being a fuel for alage growth?

That's the part that I don't know: if algae can take advantage of ethanol in the water column. Still, if there is not enough phosphate for bacteria, then there won't likely be enough for algae either.


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