Taqpol's DIY LED prototype build, detailed pictures [Archive]

Taqpol

04/02/2010, 11:27 PM

I'm also going to post this here just so I don't forget what page of the massive DIY LED thread its on. A very good description of how to solder LEDs on stars by RC member kcress:

Soldering... It's a bit of an art form. It you're an expert you could probably solder the stars with anything but a torch. But if you aren't accomplished a 'just right' soldering iron is required. Something around 25 to 40watts. The biggest problem would be one too small as then you damage what you are soldering by sitting there with the heat on, waiting, and waiting for the solder temperature to be reached. Meanwhile the device is being roasted.

You need "rosin core solder." Make absolutely sure it's not 'ACID' core solder. Acid core is solder for soldering radiators and copper pipe. The acid remains and will dissolve your electronics in short order. No-core or plain solder is also very bad as there is no cleaning action which is vital to an acceptable solder joint.

You want lead solder too - NOT "lead free".

Let your iron heat up fully. Then wet it with your rosin core solder until it's blobbed up in a wad. This lets the rosin act on the tip to clean it. Wipe this blob off on a moist sponge,(not a sopping wet, just barely damp). If you have no sponge use a damp folded up paper towel.

Wipe with a very fast twirling dragging motion as you are trying to clear all the solder off the tip before you cool the tip to the point that the solder freezes again.

Apply a weee bit of solder to the tip and then immediately apply the tip to the star's pad. As soon as you apply the tip to the pad take your solder and touch it to the exact point where the tip meets the pad. You are trying to maximize heat transfer from the tip to the pad. You do this by filling all the voids with a molten metal thermal bridge. Pause for, perhaps, one or two seconds move the solder to a distant place on the pad and hold it there. When the pad heats up enough to melt the solder feed the solder in at a good clip until the pad has a large mound of solder on it.

Do the same thing to your wire if it is un-tinned. (actually do this before you do the pad!) Better(superior) would be to use only pre-tinned wire in the first place.

Now once you have your mound of solder on the star pad bring over your wire hold it on the Star's pad. Place the tip on top of the wire. You want to reheat the pad thru the wire. When the wire sinks into the blob hold the position and watch the blob. You want the entire blob to melt again. The instant the blob has remelted remove the tip while holding the wire EXACTLY where it is. No wiggling allowed! Coffee shakes need not apply..

There! One down a bazillion more to go. LOL

Aaaaaand I have yet another question. I have 20g wire laying around that seems perfect, but should I use stranded or solid wire for wiring between the LED stars?

Taqpol

04/02/2010, 11:28 PM

where are you moving to in NC?
Going to grad school in Durham!

widmer

04/02/2010, 11:29 PM

Taqpol

04/02/2010, 11:39 PM

Looks like you're off to a great start. As far as I know, your multimeter is just fine. Simply turn the dial to the "10A" option which is in its own little red-lined section. Then physically unplug your red lead and plug it into that corresponding socket. All you have to do is wire up your LEDs and break the connection, connecting in the multimeter in series as if it were just another LED.

I'm not sure if you are questioning, but I'm guessing that no active cooling will be necessary considering the heat sinking that's going on :)
Thanks for help with the multimeter! It makes sense now, but those things scare me....

I will definitely be actively cooling with some kind of computer fan hooked to a wall wart, but for right now I am more concerned about figuring out the wiring of the meanwell.

ReefEnabler

04/03/2010, 12:44 AM

If in doubt about the 200ma max thing, there is another, probably more accurate way to measure current with that multimeter, but you will need a resistor. A 1% tolerance 0.1ohm resistor is best, but you can also use a 1ohm or 1/2 ohm since 0.1 ohm is likely not at Radio Shack.

Hook the resistor up in series with your LEDs. Connect your multimeter probes to both ends of the resistor, and read the voltage in mv.

Current = Voltage / Resistance
I = V / R

So if you have a 1ohm resistor (what I used), then the reading (in mV) will actually be the direct reading of mA (current). If you used a 0.1 ohm resistor, you multiply the value by 10 first... just plug your mV reading and resistor ohms into that equation.

Also note that a 1% tolerance resistor need not be used. Regardless, you should set the multimeter to the ohms setting and measure the ohms of your resistor first, which should take the guesswork out of it, especially if you had to settle for a 10% resistor which is more common.

Wish I could help with the question about running the PWM meanwells without a dimming signal but I haven't messed with em yet, just the buckpucks.

I'd recommend stranded wire between LEDs, it puts less stress on the solder joints and IMO is just easier to work with. I did use solid wire on the first and last connection of each of my LED strings since that's what my quick disconnects needed, and it does seem to work just fine. 20g sounds fine; I used it in between my stars. Kcress will tell you to go higher gauge like 22-24, but stugray, myself and others have used thicker wire like 18g and it works just fine, but Kcress probably does have a point about thicker wires putting unnecessary stress on the stars/solder joints. Thicker wire is only really beneficial if we are talking about long wire runs, so I wouldn't go with beefy wire between the LEDs.

good luck!

sammy113

04/03/2010, 12:57 AM

I'm pretty sure you won't get accurate results by testing the meanwell without being hooked to the whole rig. It will auto adjust. It is recommended to turn down the SRV2 pot to the lowest (~700ma) then adjust and measure while having all the LEDs connected (make sure you don't break it though. It only turns around 270 degrees side to side. I though it was like a screw and turned like 200 times lol) You can get constant current from it by just pluging the DIM -, + wires to a 10V max power supply. I'm currently using 9V wall wart while I get something to Dim with. You could even use a 9V battery.

ReefEnabler

04/03/2010, 01:01 AM

ooo I like the 9v battery idea :)

sammy113

04/03/2010, 01:04 AM

yeah works very good. I had a 72 LED lamp On for more than an hour with one of those :)
Also have toyed with AA's to get "dimmed" effects.
Also a poor man's dimmer could be a multi-voltage power supply. Ranges from 2.4V to 12V. Just need to make sure you don't crank it up to 12V

kcress

04/03/2010, 01:08 AM

The MW needs to be hooked up and running the LEDs before you bother trying to "dial it in". Do however turn it DOWN before powering up your string with it the first time.

Widmer has the meter setup explained well. Follow that.

A warning. Remember not to power the MW and then close the circuit on your string. It will FLASH ONCE and that will be the end of it. This can easily happen when you are measuring the current by breaking the string and inserting a meter. Then you get the bright idea to remove the meter (string now open) then you re-hook the wires to get the string back on without actually turning off the power first... FLASH!

I doubt you'll need any fan on that sink at all if air can flow easily across it.

Padrino

04/03/2010, 08:21 AM

I'm also going to post this here just so I don't forget what page of the massive DIY LED thread its on. A very good description of how to solder LEDs on stars by RC member kcress:

Aaaaaand I have yet another question. I have 20g wire laying around that seems perfect, but should I use stranded or solid wire for wiring between the LED stars?

yOU SHOULD USE STRANDED WIRE, THE PURPOSE FOR THIS IS ITS FLEXIBLE AND WILL NOT GET DAMAGED OR CRACK WHILE YOU ARE WORKING WITH IT
sorry about the caps. This looks great Alex. I think i may have to try this as well.

Taqpol

04/03/2010, 12:18 PM

Ok guys, thank you so much for your help!

I have an adustable wall wart that is 3v - 6v - 9v - 12v so I guess I could just use that on the 9V setting plugged into my DIM wires for the time being. I would like to set up a more permanent dimmer with controls, however. After doing some google searching (It will be nice when RC gets their search function upgraded) I found this RC thread that talks about dimming a Meanwell ELN-60-48-D. In it (page 1) stugray and evilc66 get in a discussion about making a controller to reduce a 12V wall warts voltage to exactly 10V and then adjust it using a pot:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793374

Stugray advises using a master pot to lower the voltage down to 10V and then using a second pot to achieve dimming:
Get TWO 5k Pots.
Hook high side of POT 1 to Wallwart ( unknown voltage < 24V )
Hook Wiper of POT 1 to High side of POT 2 ( insulate low side of Pot 1 )

Hook Low side of POT 2 to wall wart ground

Turn on wall wart & measure voltage across POT 2
Adjust POT 1 until max Voltage across POT 2 = 10.0 VDC

Hook wiper of POT 2 to Meanwell Dim+
Hook wall wart Ground(RTN) to Dim-

NOW you can get 0-10V by adjusting POT 2 regardless of voltage of wall wart. ( DO NOT adjust POT 1 ever again )

Sorry if that sounds complicated but it's not.

Stu

Evilc66 suggests using an LM317 and a simple circuit to adjust voltage:
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/evilc66/0-10VLM317.jpg

Not to bad when you paint by numbers. All of these parts can be bought at Radioshack. This will accept 12-32v and still work perfectly.

Can someone tell me which of these seems to be the easiest/safest method? I've built circuits before, but never on just perfboard. I would also like to be able to power my 12V dc computer fan off of the wall wart, if I used the same wall wart for the dimming circuit and the fan (I'm sure it has enough amperage for both) then would I just run the fan "parallel" to the dimming circuit and branh off before I hit the first pot?

In the same thread they also mention that the D and P Meanwells are almost identical and at least for testing purposes you can use a 0-10V signal produced by one of the above circuits on the PWM Meanwell like it was a D Meanwell. I would like to do that now just to see what the dimming effects look like before I try and build a microprocessor.

Does all of this sound good?

Taqpol

04/04/2010, 03:20 AM

I got a lot done today, but like all of these projects I did think i would get even farther.

Marked out the LED placement, I used roughly 1.75" between LEDs and 2" between rows:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0418.jpg

Blue LEDs in place for a sense of scale:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0419.jpg

I then drilled 1/8" holes through the heatsink on either side of where an LED will end up. This will allow me to pass wires through the heat sink and hide everything in the fins:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0420.jpg

I also ground down some perpendicular channels so I can pass wires between the fins without going up and over:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0423.jpg

Turtle Wax Polishing Compound was used to buff out any scratches and give a better surface for heat transfer. Right before I mounted the LEDs I also wiped down the surface with isopropanol and a lint free cloth:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0422.jpg

RapidLed's kit came with Arctic Alumina Thermal compound so I used it. Like all two part epoxies you mix it in a 1:1 ratio on some kind of plastic sheet (I wax paper):
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0425.jpg

I then used the provided spatula to apply some mixed compound to the underside of the LED star, after I wiped it down with isopropanol and a lint free cloth:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0428.jpg

Press it into place on the heatsink. A slight twisting motion as you apply pressure really makes sure the thermal compound fills up all the imperfections:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0429.jpg

I think I used a bit too much. One things for sure, these puppies are not coming off anytime soon:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0430.jpg

Finished fixture:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0473.jpg

Taqpol

04/04/2010, 03:40 AM

Also, following kcress's instructions (which I quoted on this page), soldering the XR-E cool whites which did not come pre-soldered was easy. I did these before I mounted them to the heat sink because I heard that the heat sink made it harder for the solder pads to heat up.

Touch the pre tinned soldering iron to the solder on one side of the pad:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0440.jpg

Move the solder away and feed it in at a good clip until you get a nice mound:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0441.jpg

I used a 30 watt soldering iron for everything I did today.

I decided to use stugray's dimming circuit method as it did seem easier to me. Here was my proof of concept involving two 5Kohm pots and gator clips.

While testing voltage across my second pot, I use the first pot to adust my maximum voltage. This is being fed by a 12v wall wart that was producing 12.1v on its own:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0480.jpg

Then I wired it up so the multimeter would see what the meanwells dimming circuit sees. The wiring goes like this:

Wall wart positive -> 1st pot high side
1st pot wiper -> 2nd pot high side
1st pot low side -> unconnected

2nd pot wiper -> Meanwell DIM+ (multimeter positive)
2nd pot low side -> wall wart negative

Meanwell DIM- (multimeter negative) -> wall wart negative

Note that the 2nd pots low side and the DIM- both connect to wall wart negative.

Using this setup I was able to get any voltage from 10v to 0.0v:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0481.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0482.jpg

Of course I wasn't content to leave it simple. I proceeded to make a circuit that would take my 12V wall wart and power a computer fan as well as the master pot and two 0-10v pots in parallel to control both of my Meanwells:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0485.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0487.jpg

This board, along with my meanwells, will be mounted in a radio shack project box with the adjustable pots sticking through the case for use as an "external ballast".

I do want to make sure of one thing before I continue, so someone with meanwell experience please let me know. In the thread I linked above they say the P and D meanwells are very similar and that you can dim a PWM meanwell with a 0-10V source just like what I have made. Is this true? I plan on using some kind of arduino based true PWM signal in the future but this seems much simpler for testing.

If this will not work is there any way I can convert my 0-10V signal into a PWM signal?

nowlan

04/04/2010, 04:23 AM

I have used 2x ELN60-P.

Originally hooked up to a 9v battery.
These last about a week before the voltage starts to sag.

I do NOT recommend driving the P models with less than 9v.
Take the effort to make the pwm circuit floating around.

I did notice that my lights were dimmer after 1-2 weeks on battery, and recording less than 5v from my battery.
So it does work, but never designed for it.

I ended up buying a non dimming ELN60 model instead.

You can also achieve 10v by using 3 diodes in series.
3x 0.6-0.7 = ~2v.
You can easily get 10v from a 12v plug pack.

To calibrate current, SVR2 is on the far right of the board.
You can dial it down if your using XPE for Royal Blues.
XPG can take full grunt otherwise.
I suggest turning it off whilst adjusting.

Final warning, if you look at datasheet, the output voltage is between 24-48v.
You want to hook up enough leds in series, to take the min 24v.
Otherwise risk magic smoke.
I used a lab power supply to test my wiring, and put meanwells on last.

---
You also want to do something about the rough edges on the Fins.
The sharp edges can possibly cut the wire insulation over time.
Need grommets ? Debur holes too.

I would suggest going under the heatsink like everyone else does.
I have drilled a hole through my heatsink, to tie a hoop.
This takes strain off the wires. Meanwells live on a shelf.

Also, good idea to run an earth to the heatsink itself.
You dont want to get shocked if anything ever comes loose.

--
Dont want to sound critical, just sharing my experience.

kentrob11

04/04/2010, 08:36 AM

Lookin good...

noahm

04/04/2010, 08:54 AM

Thanks for posting. I can't get enough of these LED threads. I am still a couple years out on a major move and tank upgrade, so after that, and after you guys work out all the kinks ;), I can start my own LED build.

Looking good

Taqpol

04/04/2010, 04:11 PM

This is coming along really fast! I forgot how much I enjoy soldering and electricity stuff.

ALL of the blue LEDs wired in series!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0492.jpg

Wiring hidden in the fins:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0493.jpg

With all that done and my voltage regulator working, its time to wire up some drivers!

Standard AC power chord, soldered and heat shrink'ed with a lighter:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0490.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0491.jpg

Hooked everything up with aligator clips. With no LEDs the driver was producing almost exactly 48V!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0496.jpg

Taqpol

04/04/2010, 04:19 PM

As suggested I hooked my multimeter up in series with the LEDs after turning the SVR2 pot down all the way (counter-clockwise). It turns out my multimeter does work just fine after I switched the positive chord to the 10A socket.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0497.jpg

Lights! with my dimming circuit on full blast (10V) and the SVR2 pot all the way down the rig only drew 0.15A yet I was still seeing spots.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0498.jpg

Adjusted the SVR2 pot until my amp meter read 0.7A, this level is almost blinding without optics!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0501.jpg

The lowest I can go with my dimming circuit pot is 0.09A, it will shut off after this.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0502.jpg

60 degree optics, fully dimmed.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0504.jpg

60 degree optics, full power.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0505.jpg

The ceiling above me. I am really impressed by the spread of 60 degree optics.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0506.jpg

So my question now is why is 700mA the max, I thought these LEDs were rated all the way up to 1A. I don't think I would (or need) to go that high, but if I'm looking for a little more PAR down the road would it hurt to go up to maybe 800-850 mA saying that I have enough cooling?

Padrino

04/04/2010, 05:11 PM

Eel-byte

04/04/2010, 05:54 PM

I was suprised how quickly things move when you get going. Nice job. Next one I do, I'll conceal the wires.

Anthonius

04/04/2010, 06:45 PM

wow great job... almost looks ready to hang on the tank... i cant wait to see... i just ordered my leds and a heat sink... next payday hopefully i can buy my drivers... im really excited. looks good tho.

crvz

04/04/2010, 07:34 PM

great project. any plans with the finished product? Or is it really just a test rig?

Taqpol

04/04/2010, 08:16 PM

Alex,
Thats awesome. Could you list out all the products and where to get them for people that might want to follow in your footsteps.

Any chance you could test the PAR at different distances under water. I am looking to upgrade and i may want to give LEDs a chance.

Do you ever need to replace the bulbs?
The parts list will be super easy since I got everything from three stores!

24 Cree XR-E LEDs, 2 Meanwell drivers, 24 optics, thermal paste, power chords - www.rapidled.com (they also stock XP-G cool white LEDs now, but there aren't any optics for them...)

8.4"x10" heatsink - www.heatsinkusa.com

Soldering gun, solder, 20 guage stranded wire, perboard, 3 5Kohm potentiometers, adjustable voltage wall wart, project box - Radio Shack

I am looking to borrow a PAR meter from a LFS before I move, but if I don't get the chance Durham is less then half an hour from ReefEnabler who has a PAR meter so I might be able to snag his for a day.

The advertised lifetime for LEDs is supposed to be over 50,000 hours which would equal over 11 years of operation at 12 hours a day. I think i've heard some people with experience say that is an unobtainable number, but a good estimate would still be over five years of life in which case you will definitely save money over comparable T5 or MH systems.

I was suprised how quickly things move when you get going. Nice job. Next one I do, I'll conceal the wires.
Funny you say that, next one I build I don't think I will bother concealing the wires, drilling all those holes was a pain! It would be worthwhile in any kind of open top system where they will be visible, but I plan on making my final set of fixtures mounted in a canopy with only their fins sticking out of the top. In that case I won't mind a few exposed wires.

great project. any plans with the finished product? Or is it really just a test rig?
If I am happy with the spread and PAR given by my current LED spacing then I will make another four of these fixtures to put in my >180g system. Even if I do something different size wise, this exact fixture will light my small anemone cube tank or a QT or frag tank once I finally get my fish room at the new house. I am currently leaning towards having it light the cube tank as I've gone pretty far trying to make everything neat and pretty.

widmer

04/04/2010, 08:16 PM

1000 mA is perfectly acceptable for the XR-E series LEDs, especially considering how heavily heatsinked you have them.

When you have the XP-G LEDs segregated onto a driver separate from the XR-E series, people have brought them up to 1500 mA without any apparent trouble.

Of course, the lower the current, the more efficiently they are running, and presumably the longer they will last. 700 mA seems to be a good safe number that a lot of entities recommend because it is certainly below maximum operating parameters, and humans only perceive a negligible difference in brightness when going between 700 and 1000 lumens. :)

Padrino

04/04/2010, 08:35 PM

but what is the par difference between those parameters? i guess Alex will be able to tell us once he borrows a quantum meter

sammy113

04/05/2010, 12:09 AM

+1 what Widmer said. Actually I'm running mine about ~850mA but I had them driven to 1000mA with no problems. There is a very little noticeable change in intensity from 700 to 1000. You can barely notice but I guess a PAR meter will tell exactly.

You rig is looking very nice. So clean with the wires hidden in the fins ;)
keep it up

Taqpol

04/05/2010, 12:36 AM

Well, technically the array is done! Talk about a weekend project, now I just have a bunch of finishing touches to add.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0508.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0511.jpg

I highly suggest getting one of these 2x AAA battery testers from radio shack if you're going to do a LED build. I was able to test every connection as I soldered them in instead of having to go back at the end and find out where the bad solder joint was!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0512.jpg

700mA. I might go up to 850mA, but I think I'll wait until I can get my hands on a PAR meter to see what kind of difference it actually makes.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0515.jpg

I think I still have spots in my eyes:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0516.jpg

I've been using my fiancee's point and shoot camera for all of the documentation pictures. It really doesn't capture the true color at all (Way overpowered by the blue) so sometime here I'll break out the SLR and play with the color temperature settings. All LEDs running :)
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0519.jpg

Only blues (+60 degree optics)
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0520.jpg

Only whites
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0521.jpg

Both. Again, this image is skewed to the blue side but by looking at the two previous pictures you can see how the white smooths it out.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0522.jpg

Taqpol

04/05/2010, 12:59 AM

I do have an annoying problem I was hoping some of the electrical gurus could help me with.

Sorry for the crappy MSPaint drawing, but here is my voltage regulator circuit:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/VoltageReg.jpg

All three pots are 5 K ohm.

I use Pot 1 to dial down the input voltage (12v) to 10v. After that the wiper (center pin) is split in parallel to the high sides of two additional pots. The parallel pots are then used to individually control the two Meanwells dimming circuits by connecting their wipers to the DIM+ cables. The two DIM- cables and the two pots low sides are connected back to the wall warts negative terminal.

This circuit runs perfectly when only one of the parallel pot circuits is connected and will scale from 0v-10v. The moment I connect both circuits (either one meanwell one multimeter, or two meanwells) they both drop down to 0v-7.7v. I thought about just adjusting the master Pot until they were back up to 10v but if I fully dim one circuit then the other circuit will increase its range to 0v-8.7v.

I thought it was ok to run the two circuits in parallel, but I don't really have a full enough understanding of electronics to know whats going on or how to fix it. Can someone help me out here?

kcress

04/05/2010, 04:00 AM

nowlan

04/05/2010, 10:19 AM

You can also build a real PWM circuit.

Taqpol

04/05/2010, 12:02 PM

You are not recognizing the fact that the voltage drop across any resistor is based on the current thru it.

When you parallel those second two you change the current thru the primary one causing another change. You have set up the most hated of situations - "interacting pots".

You can avoid interaction only by ditching the primary one.

Turn down the two secondary ones and turn the primary one to minimum resistance or short it/remove it. Now the two secondary ones will NOT interact. Stick your meter on the associated DIM+ and crank up the pot while looking at the meter. When you reach the MW's limit, mark the pot and don't exceed that point. Do that for the second one too. If you want brighter and dimmer you just turn both pots the same. You could mechanically gang them if you wanted.

Nice build there. Don't forget you can over flux your coral with these things!
The only problem there is even if I mark them I don't trust myself to never accidentally go past my mark. I've heard that some people have run the dims directly off of a 12v wall wart, but the drivers are not rated for that and meanwell won't replace them if there is any damage. I also want to be able to control the two channels independently for testing purposes.

If I had two "master pots" connected to their own "dimming pots" would that correct the problem?

You can also build a real PWM circuit.
I'm thinking at this point this is a much better idea, and I think I have the circuitry knowledge to build it if someone can point me in the right direction. Anyone have a link on building my own 10v PWM circuit?

Basically I want to have one circuit board powered by one 12v wall wart that lets me power my 12v computer fan and use some dimming process that I can control independently of the other circuit using something simple lik pots that I can have sticking through my project box. Can this be done?

der_wille_zur_macht

04/05/2010, 12:27 PM

Two circuits have been posted in the various "dimming meanwell" threads a few times - one using a 555 timer IC to generate a 10v PWM signal, and the other using an adjustable voltage regulator and a pot to generate a 0-10v analog signal. Just look through the threads and you should find either - both would be easy to throw together on a perfboard and give you a "real" regulated 10v signal.

It becomes especially important to regulate the 10v signal you're sending to the meanwells if you're doing as you are implying - running fans and other loads on the 12v wall wart. Poorly (or un-)regulated wall warts tend to have voltages all over the map, and will change their output with load. This makes your pot-based solution even MORE variable and untrustworthy. If you set it up to give you 10v, you might find you only have 8v on the other side of the pots once you turn a cooling fan on that's using the same wall wart.

kcress

04/05/2010, 03:37 PM

I don't trust myself to never accidentally go past my mark.

So how can you manage to not floor your car's accelerator? Or take a toaster into the bath tub? Just decide not to. :lol:

If I had two "master pots" connected to their own "dimming pots" would that correct the problem?

Yes! Certainly that would work fine.

Taqpol

04/05/2010, 04:06 PM

So how can you manage to not floor your car's accelerator? Or take a toaster into the bath tub? Just decide not to. :lol:

Yes! Certainly that would work fine.
Even if I ran it off of one wall wart? I'm worried about what DWZM said about putting multiple loads (fan, two double pot circuits) all in parallel and having the wall wart put off varying voltages.

Two circuits have been posted in the various "dimming meanwell" threads a few times - one using a 555 timer IC to generate a 10v PWM signal, and the other using an adjustable voltage regulator and a pot to generate a 0-10v analog signal. Just look through the threads and you should find either - both would be easy to throw together on a perfboard and give you a "real" regulated 10v signal.

It becomes especially important to regulate the 10v signal you're sending to the meanwells if you're doing as you are implying - running fans and other loads on the 12v wall wart. Poorly (or un-)regulated wall warts tend to have voltages all over the map, and will change their output with load. This makes your pot-based solution even MORE variable and untrustworthy. If you set it up to give you 10v, you might find you only have 8v on the other side of the pots once you turn a cooling fan on that's using the same wall wart.
Ill look up the 555 IC to try and build a PWM controller. Is there a way I can power two dimming controls and a 12v fan safely on one wall wart? I'm just trying to make the mess of wires coming out of my project box more manageable.

I would really like to power the fan off of the meanwell itself so that it comes on when the lights come on, but I've heard multiple times that that is inadvisable.

kcress

04/05/2010, 04:09 PM

all in parallel and having the wall wart put off varying voltages.

Not an issue.

graysmurf

04/05/2010, 09:58 PM

looks very good.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/06/2010, 06:59 AM

Not an issue.

Not to argue with the master, but are you sure?

Get an unregulated wall wart (i.e. one that has a transformer, bridge rectifier, and a cap or two inside it) stickered at 12v and measure voltage. It's almost always several volts high with no load. Now put a fan on it and measure voltage. It usually will drop with a load. I'd have to imagine that if you had a pot set up on the same wall wart trying to send 10v to a driver that when the fan kicked on or off, the voltage on the other side of the pot would go up and down, too - hence my suggestion above for putting the dimming controls on a voltage regulator so changes in the wall wart's voltage due to other loads wouldn't alter the signal.

Taqpol

04/06/2010, 11:26 AM

Not to argue with the master, but are you sure?

Get an unregulated wall wart (i.e. one that has a transformer, bridge rectifier, and a cap or two inside it) stickered at 12v and measure voltage. It's almost always several volts high with no load. Now put a fan on it and measure voltage. It usually will drop with a load. I'd have to imagine that if you had a pot set up on the same wall wart trying to send 10v to a driver that when the fan kicked on or off, the voltage on the other side of the pot would go up and down, too - hence my suggestion above for putting the dimming controls on a voltage regulator so changes in the wall wart's voltage due to other loads wouldn't alter the signal.
I wonder if my wall wart is regulated? I measured the output this morning with no load and it read 12.07v. I then plugged in the fan and had the multimeter in parallel with the fan and it read 12.07v. Turned one string of LEDs and the multimeter stayed at 12.07v.

The wall wart I have is an Enermax brand that can be adjusted with a sliding switch to output 3, 6, 9, or 12v. To do that does it have to be regulated?

kcress

04/06/2010, 02:15 PM

Of course if it's not regulated you would have exactly that problem DWZM.

It would be the same as a single "master pot". It would just be the transformer and rectifiers doing the dropping. A regulated wall wart should not do that and will behave like Taqpol's. Taqpol's will work great as long as he doesn't overload it. If he overloads it, it will likely stop working - forever.

BTW you point out the standard for discovering a regulated verse unregulated supply. Measure it with no load. If it's more than about 1/2 a volt high it's likely unregulated.

Taqpol

04/06/2010, 03:18 PM

Ok.... Heres the new plan!

After scouring the internet for Meanwell dimming threads I'm going to build an actual 10v PWM controller designed by evilc66.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/evilc66/555PWM.jpg

Key:
Black - component leads
Red - under board solder bridges
Blue - Over the board wires

Parts list:
1x 555 timer
1x LM317
1x 1.5K resistor
2x 10k resistor
1x 0.1 uF capacitor
1x 0.047 uF capacitor
2x 1N914/4148 Diode
1x 100K potentiometer

Also, in case I decide to use some kind of microprocessor or arduino in the future, this is a circuit to convert 5v PWM to 10v PWM:
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=67223

Taqpol

04/06/2010, 03:27 PM

I'm also trying to decide what the best way to run these in parallel would be (for controlling my two meanwells). I'm sure if I went parallel before the LM317 voltage regulator I would have no problems with one circuit affecting the other, but if I understand this correctly I should be able to go parallel directly after the LM317 since it was what regulates my voltage from 12v down to 10v.

If you look at the above circuit could I branch off in parallel at the red line directly under the middle pin of the LM317 and right where the black line (component lead) of the 0.1uF connects to the red line going into the 555? It appears that this would leave the Ps+ -> 1.5K resistor -> 10K -> 0.1uF -> Ps- circuit of the LM317 intact.

If no one replies before I head to radio shack I'll just pick up double of everything.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/06/2010, 03:35 PM

Taqpol

04/06/2010, 04:00 PM

Pick up two of everything anyways. It's a rule of thumb for electronics projects. ;) And if you're not totally handy with soldering PCBs yet, might want to get a socket for the IC instead of soldering it directly to the perfboard.

If you want to control two meanwells with the same dimming signal, just connect both to the output of the circuit you posted above. If you're talking about controlling them separately, you don't need to duplicate the voltage regulator portion of the circuit but you do need to duplicate everything else.
All good suggestions! I hope radio shack even has the LM317, my local one has been really lacking for everything.

I want to control the dimming levels of the two meanwells individually, so I will be duplicating everything directly involved with the 555. I'm sure the LM317's are cheap enough that building two individual circuits is still cost effective, I am just trying to do this to expand my knowledge of electronics. Now I just need to know which components are only involved in the voltage regulator so that I can go parallel immediately after that.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/06/2010, 04:40 PM

The LM317 and the two resistors on the righthand side (1k5 and 10k) are the "power supply" portion. Everything else you will need to duplicate.

Though there should really be some caps on the input and output of the voltage regulator. None are shown on that diagram. Pick up some extra .1uF ceramic caps and some small electrolytics if they have them (10uF or whatever). That diagram has been floating around for a few months so I bet some people at least have been successful but it's not really "by the book" and I could imagine it being unstable in certain circumstances without the caps.

Taqpol

04/07/2010, 09:38 PM

Well, I've officially decided that building your own PWM circuit SUCKS!

Its not the circuit that stumps me, its the freaking soldering. I've always thought I was good at soldering but working with this single hole perfboard is making me pull my hair out.

This is one of evilc66's first PWM circuits (it didn't work), but the pictures are just to show how he designed the circuit:

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/evilc66/PWMTOP.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/evilc66/PWMBOTTOM.jpg

For the life of my i cant make those solder bridges on the bottom side of the circuit. I can join two together easy enough, but when i try and join the third hole to the second hole the joint between the first and the second melts away. Eventually i have so much solder on the board that I'm pretty much joining every pin together....

Unless someone can explain a technique to make this work for me I am done with PWM and will just go back to my dual pots idea until i get an arduino.

sammy113

04/07/2010, 10:11 PM

haha sorry but it sucks when this happens. For some reason, even though I've soldered near 250 LEDs so far, have done some weird things with plugs and stuff, I think I don't have the balls to even do this simple board. Looks to me like I'm gonna join every pin to the next one and end with a big ball of solder under that board lol. I also want to do Arduino but still happens the same. Don't feel like to buy the stuff and mess it all. I feel you dude

der_wille_zur_macht

04/08/2010, 05:39 AM

I fiercely detest protoboard for this very reason. You pretty much have to make the entire solder bridge in one shot. Or, use jumpers for the whole thing. Or, get stripboard (with traces connecting strips - you cut the traces where you don't want connections). Or, get something like this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103799

Or this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102845

ReefEnabler

04/08/2010, 07:36 AM

I used that first board DWZM posted, but actually used solid copper wire on the bottom to bridge each side together so they acted more like bus terminals (made it easy to attach capacitor and buckpuck leads with 2 channels of power input).

You can always put a piece of solid copper wire anywhere that needs to be a bridge that crosses all the pads.. might make it easier to get the solder to flow along it.

stugray

04/08/2010, 07:48 AM

"Or, get something like this:"

http://www.aeroconsystems.com/electronics/wire_wrap_tool.jpg

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/49/180px-wire_wrap_tool.jpg

Perf board is really intended for wire wrap. You would get these:

http://www.precicontact.ch/images/uww-6-1.jpg

And you can wrap the wire around the leads of the discrete components as well.

Stu

sammy113

04/08/2010, 08:22 AM

Nice! those will help a lot for this

Taqpol

04/08/2010, 11:56 AM

I actually used:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102845

for my very first board but it still didn't work. I don't even know what I did wrong, but I think it was due to some components being connected "out of order". I didn't think this would matter because most everything on the circuit diagram appears to be in parallel but maybe I goofed on one of the components thats in series.

The IC extender thing that Stu posted would probably help alot. I did find out late last night that I could use my resistor and cap lead clippings to make the bridges very easily but at this point it was too late and half of all my circuits were soldered together. After I burned my finger something fierce I just gave up on that circuit.

I have enough components to try for one more PWM circuit but I'm wondering if its worth it anymore. My double pot circuit worked on an individual basis and if I used two master pots and wired them in parallel to my wall wart it would work fine. The reason I decied to try and go with a true PWM is I have heard on some threads that while a 0-10v dimming circuit works on a P model driver, it doesn't work well and I might only get 50%-100% dimming instead of the 11%-100%. Doers anyone know what the truth behind this is?

Taqpol

04/08/2010, 12:00 PM

Also, I had originally planned on using PWM because I was going to control it with an arduino and ReefEnabler told me that PWM drivers get better dimming (lower amount of light before it cuts off) then a 0-10v dimmer. After reading some more I think there is an image from the meanwell spec sheets that say that the PWM drivers cut off at 11% dimming but the 0-10v cuts off at 5%. In that case wouldn't the 0-10v be the better driver for dimming capabilities?

I ask this because I am seriosuly thinking about getting a Neptune APEX controller that would be able to dim 0-10v out of the box.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/08/2010, 12:04 PM

Alex,

You should try to match the dimming signal to what the driver expects - for instance, you shouldn't use PWM on the D-type and expect it to work, though it probably would. The graphs showing response only pertain if you're using the specified signal for each type of driver. They're in the datasheet here:

http://www.meanwell.com/search/eln-60/default.htm

According to that, the D-type has a lower cutoff.

ReefEnabler

04/08/2010, 12:37 PM

I'm not actually sure about PWM getting better range, that might not be the case, I just meant I was going to look into it. I believe somebody mentioned that the D type meanwell actually has a lower cuttoff than the P type.

*edit* replied without seeing DWZMs message....

Taqpol

04/08/2010, 12:48 PM

Thats the graph I was looking for! I wonder if D is what I should be going for then. Definitely easier to control with an off the shelf controller (APEX). Does anyone on this thread have experience with the APEX? I'm pretty sure it only has four 0-10v outputs but I know its highly modular. What part number would I have to get to upgrade that to maybe 8 0-10v outlets? I wanted to control the whites and blues on all four of my blocks separately.

DWZM, I've seen some stuff floating around about your DIY LED driver, and I'm pretty sure I've seen people buying pre printed boards for it. Out of curiosity how much would it cost to assemble one of your boards (counting ordering a pre printed board), how many XR-E LEDs would it run, what kind of power do you have to supply it, and is it dimmable? I'm curious because on one thread I think you said it would go all the way to to <1% dimming.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/08/2010, 12:58 PM

The "latest and greatest" DIY design costs around $1 per driven LED, all inclusive (power supply, connectors, PCB, components to make the driver, etc.) For reference, a Meanwell costs around $2.50 - $3.50 depending on what price you paid and how much you spend on a dimming circuit.

The design is based on the CAT4101 IC. It's all surface mount but easy surface mount. The current PCB has three circuits per PCB, so you get three "strings" of LEDs from one set of input connections. It needs a 5v PWM signal for dimming. It also needs a 5v supply to run the circuit itself (separate from the DC supply for the LEDs). On a 24v power supply, it can run 6 or 7 LEDs per string (depending on the Vf of the LEDs) and you can choose a max current from 0 - 1000mA via sense resistor then dim down from there.

The driver will indeed respond to a dimming signal down below 1%. Though it's important to keep in mind that even at a 1% dimming signal, for a typical max current, these LEDs will still be creating a fair amount of light. It's very very very dim compared to their 100% brightness; and dimmer than either meanwell will get you, but it's not the barely-noticeable-glow some people seem to be chasing.

sammy113

04/08/2010, 01:06 PM

der_wille_zur_macht

04/08/2010, 01:13 PM

it could but it scares me a bit since you've got exposed metal connected to a wall outlet. IMHO better off buying a wall wart and dealing with the DC it provides you, than DIY'ing the AC/DC part of the circuit.

Taqpol

04/08/2010, 01:20 PM

I don't know if I posted this before in another thread but could this be a good solution for ELN60-48 D model?

http://www.chaneyelectronicsstore.com/servlet/the-143/0-dsh-12VDC-Variable-Power-Supply/Detail
It also goes up to 12v, so you would have to rig something in there to cap it at 10v or mark the potentiometer at 10v and never exceed that.

Some people run the dimming circuit temporarily off of a 12v wall wart and haven't experienced any problems, but since the meanwell is not rated for that much voltage they will not warranty it if anything breaks.

The "latest and greatest" DIY design costs around $1 per driven LED, all inclusive (power supply, connectors, PCB, components to make the driver, etc.) For reference, a Meanwell costs around $2.50 - $3.50 depending on what price you paid and how much you spend on a dimming circuit.

The design is based on the CAT4101 IC. It's all surface mount but easy surface mount. The current PCB has three circuits per PCB, so you get three "strings" of LEDs from one set of input connections. It needs a 5v PWM signal for dimming. It also needs a 5v supply to run the circuit itself (separate from the DC supply for the LEDs). On a 24v power supply, it can run 6 or 7 LEDs per string (depending on the Vf of the LEDs) and you can choose a max current from 0 - 1000mA via sense resistor then dim down from there.

The driver will indeed respond to a dimming signal down below 1%. Though it's important to keep in mind that even at a 1% dimming signal, for a typical max current, these LEDs will still be creating a fair amount of light. It's very very very dim compared to their 100% brightness; and dimmer than either meanwell will get you, but it's not the barely-noticeable-glow some people seem to be chasing.
Hmmmmm. I think I'm gonna go find your thread and do some reading. I'm not trying to moonlight my tank with an entire block of LEDs lowered to 1% but I would like a left to right sunrise/sunset effect and I would like it to be less noticeable when the first block turns on.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/08/2010, 01:25 PM

It also goes up to 12v, so you would have to rig something in there to cap it at 10v or mark the potentiometer at 10v and never exceed that.

Some people run the dimming circuit temporarily off of a 12v wall wart and haven't experienced any problems, but since the meanwell is not rated for that much voltage they will not warranty it if anything breaks.

If I were to use the adjustable supply posted above, I'd put it in a project box, set the trimpot on it to 10v, and put a potentiometer on the output sticking through the side of the box. Then, never open the box again!

Hmmmmm. I think I'm gonna go find your thread and do some reading. I'm not trying to moonlight my tank with an entire block of LEDs lowered to 1% but I would like a left to right sunrise/sunset effect and I would like it to be less noticeable when the first block turns on.

DIY'ing the drivers isn't for everyone but if you're handy enough to do it, it can save money and get you the exact set of features you want rather than the set of features that a manufacturer thinks you want.

Taqpol

04/12/2010, 03:18 PM

Just adding finishing touches now! I'm having a horrible time getting everything to fit into my project box and after I mounted my fan assembly I realized I had pinched some wires and the LEDs were short circuiting to the aluminum heatsink. After I fix those wires I am thinking of encasing my channel that runs perpendicular to the fins in silicone to cushion the wires.

Also, I have the go ahead to borrow my LFS's PAR meter on Saturday, so hopefully I can get some numbers this weekend!

Padrino

04/12/2010, 03:57 PM

Wicked! looking forward to the results, WRT the wires, would a rubber grommet not work? I might look cleaner than silicone

ddwbeagles

04/12/2010, 07:17 PM

Great discussion thus far and just waiting on my MW ELN 60-48Ds to start my own build. I am going the APEX controller route. I hope this isn't violating any RC rules but there is a GB going on now on one of the "other sites" for the APEX systems. Anyway, sorry to clutter your thread and will be watching as you progress. Nice job so far and I'm learning a lot. Also great detail and pics in your assembly. One of the best (or atleast) easiest to follow build threads to date.

Taqpol

04/13/2010, 02:02 PM

I had another question for those who have dimmed meanwells or those with much more electrical knowledge then myself:

Can I leave my meanwells plugged into a power strip all day long and then turn the lights on and off solely with a dimming program? Does this make sense?

TheFishMan65

04/13/2010, 02:57 PM

That should work, I haven't tried it. But they will draw some power so you may still want to shut them off part of the time to save electricity.

Dannyrotorpilot

04/13/2010, 06:38 PM

Hey bud, nice work. I like the wiring job! I also have a 180 gallon tank but I decided to make three 36 LED units as our tank has 3 open sections at the top so I am doing one per section. I am using 24 XR-E's and 12 XP-G's. The XP-G's almost over power the Royal blues. I put together a 16x12 unit and will be using a Reefkeeper Elite system to control the lighting. I want to see how your setup ends up! Keep up the good work!:wave:

Taqpol

04/16/2010, 09:37 PM

Some updates on the LED front!

I went ahead and put silicone in the wire channel running perpendicular to the heatsink fins. I think my problem before was i overtightened the fan mounting rails, but this will still put my mind at ease.

Lifted wires out of the channels:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0526.jpg

Silicone bead:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0527.jpg

Mounted fan and fan rails. The silicone is completely hidden from view:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0528.jpg

Also, I did manage to fit everything in my project box. Barely.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0531.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0532.jpg

Technically everything is done!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_0533.jpg

Unfortunately it does not work with the 6' nine pin serial cable I picked up. I'm pretty sure this is due to the wires in the serial cable crossing over, whereas in my prototype cable the far left pin would match the far left pin of the cable below it. Good news is, the way I used the nine pins I'm pretty sure I can just flip all of my internal cables around to make the mirror image and it will work fine. Good thing I used quick disconnects instead of soldering...

Also, does someone that owns a meanwell also own a kill-a-watt meter? I would like to see if you turned the dimming circuit off if the driver itself draws any power while plugged in.

Taqpol

04/18/2010, 11:33 PM

I've been very busy this weekend, but I think i have something that everyone will enjoy.

PAR Meter Time!!!

I started out with a simple rig to hold the LEDs 36" off of the ground. All the blue tape you see on the floor marks off 6" in every direction, so I have 25 data points over a 24"x24" area.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710Setup.jpg

Here it is with the LEDs on, with no optics. Without optics I'd say the spread on the floor is a circle a good eight feet in diameter. As you'll see in my data later on, I think its pretty stupid to not use optics on your LEDs unless you are going to mount them ridiculously close to the surface of the water.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710SetupNoOptics.jpg

Now we have it with the 60 degree optics back on. This setup lights a 24" diameter circle extremely well, but I'd say the coverage of noticeable light is around 30"x30" which is good for my 30" deep tank.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710SetupOptics.jpg

Taqpol

04/18/2010, 11:38 PM

Now I'm just going to throw data at you. Be prepared!

Raw data that all of my charts are based off of:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/LEDData.jpg

Graphs for spread with no optics, and the distance of the PAR meter away from the fixture:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/36none.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/24none.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/12none.jpg

Side by Side comparisons:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/CombinedNone.jpg

More of the same, with 60 degree optics:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/36.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/24.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/12.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/CombinedOptics.jpg

Taqpol

04/18/2010, 11:54 PM

Last but not least, I even have some water shots!

I was so scared of my shoddy PVC rack dumping the entire fixture in the tank, but it did well! I think the PVC legs might have blocked light to some areas of the tank, but here goes:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LEDFTS.jpg

While the spread seems to cover more a full 24" of the tank, I would not feel comfortable with only two fixtures over this tank as I would feel there would be a major gap of lighting in the middle. Plus the PAR in the center would be atrocious with 60 degree optics. Three fixtures would have great coverage and good PAR, four would have perfect coverage and amazing PAR.

I also tried to take some close up shots to show the color rendition of my corals. I tell you, this was a pain and took a LOT of post-processing in photoshop. The light was so focused it absolutely washed out my candy cane and any corals around it so I had to burn it in before I was able to play with the kelvin rating.

This is with both strings at full power (700 mA). Photoshop has it pegged right at 10000K, and unfortunately it looks a tad to pinkish for me.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LED10K.jpg

I then adjusted the whites down in intensity. Photoshop has this at 20000K and I think it is much closer to what I am running with my T5 setup.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LED20K.jpg

Actinic: Twelve blues at full power, no whites. I think it is impossible to get photoshop to take an accurate picture of this (I had it maxed out at 50000K and still had to mess with the purple/magenta hues) but I can't believe the pop and actinic glow it gave the corals. Not natural looking at all, but jaw-dropping nonetheless.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LEDActinic.jpg

Under Water PAR time!

The number in red is the PAR with the meter just barely sticking out of the water (the lights are suspended 12" above that). Every other number is supposed to be for the vicinity around the coral they are in front of.

100%, both strings
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LED10Kpar.jpg

100%, Royal Blues Only
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LEDActinicPar.jpg

And my T5's for comparison. I was shocked at how low the T5 numbers are, but I have to say I have been getting great growth and color out of all of my corals. Needless to say, the LEDs blew them out of the water!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710T5PAR.jpg

sammy113

04/19/2010, 12:20 AM

Very Nice Alex. Thanks for taking some time to post this. Those numbers are great

Taqpol

04/19/2010, 12:36 AM

Thoughts...

Hands down, use optics. If you look at my raw data in the "in air" section you'll see that at 36" away from the emitter I was getting roughly 30 PAR around the perimeter of my testing area. Now go to the with optics data and you'll see that I'm still getting ~30 PAR on the perimeter, but it peaks at 252 PAR instead of a measly 53 dead center. Compare the two dead center at 12" from the emitter and you get 997 vs. 380. That being said, my perimeter readings at 12" from the emitter with optics were right around ~6 PAR. This was the background PAR for the room i was testing in so basically they were not getting any light there. You can see this effect in my FTS, but with three emitters over the tank I think this effect would be completely neutralized.

T5's are weird. Sticking the meter out of the surface got me PAR readings of 398 max with T5 compared to my LED max of 912. That being said, the LEDs dropped down to ~100 PAR around the edges of the tank on the sand bed, whereas the T5's maintained consistent 200 PAR ranges all over the sandbed but really peaked around 300 where my corals are. Regardless, I will most definitely have to light acclimate my corals to these, especially when I have two emitters per island.

Also, color. Color and perception of color is a very personal thing, and it is extremely hard to capture it perfectly in an image when it is so biased to one range. Still, the pinkish color kind of bugs me. It might be something that I will just end up getting used to, but as of right now I think i will be modifying my bulb ratios to something like 8 cool whites to 16 royal blues, especially since my royal blues appeared to put out a good amount of PAR. I could also try running the cool whites at 700mA and the royal blues at 1000mA, but i don't know how noticeable that would be. If I don't like this amount of white I don't even know what i would have done had I gone with the XP-G cool whites!

Lastly, shimmer. This fixture definitely has it but I don't know how I feel about it yet. It seems cool, but it feels like it almost overpowers the tank itself. This might just be because I have NEVER owned a fish tank without fluorescent lighting. Also, I might be crazy but it seems like it might make it harder to photograph as well. I tried a few different things but none of the LED pictures above appear as crisp as my T5 FTS.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/19/2010, 06:42 AM

kentrob11

04/19/2010, 06:52 AM

Great writeup!

sammy113

04/19/2010, 08:15 AM

Welcome to the club of the frustrated photographers :lol: I can't take a good pic with the goddamn LEDs. Doing actinics is even worse. What kind of processing you did on PS?

TheFishMan65

04/19/2010, 08:37 AM

Thanks for the time to take all the number, I like many really appreciate it.

ddwbeagles

04/19/2010, 10:09 AM

Great thread and we apreciate the amount of detail you have provided. Thanks for taking the time to document your build with such detail!

Taqpol

04/19/2010, 12:34 PM

Great writeup!

Thanks for the time to take all the number, I like many really appreciate it.

Great thread and we apreciate the amount of detail you have provided. Thanks for taking the time to document your build with such detail!
Thanks for the kind words!

There are many good LED builds out there, but not too many people have the ability or take the time to add PAR numbers, and even fewer have had their tanks running for over a year. I just wanted to be able to add my numbers to the data pool. Hopefully I can post here a year down the road saying that all my corals are thriving and colorful!

Taqpol

04/19/2010, 12:50 PM

Awesome data collection effort. For comparison, it would be interesting to do your whole fixture (i.e. not just that one "unit") in free air, then do your current T5's in the same arrangement, in free air.

Regarding shimmer - don't forget that surface agitation plays a big part. If it's too much, direct some flow away from the surface if you can.
That would be really cool, and I bet most of the numbers near the edges or on the sandbed would get bumped up to at least the 200 PAR range just from the effect of having two different fixtures shining on it at an angle. Unfortunately I only have this one emitter as my purpose for this entire thread was to get some LEDs in my hand, see if I had the skill to wire them, and test out the color with my own eyes on my own fish tank. To this point I have done that and more but my summer is about to get extremely hectic (moving in May, getting married in June, honeymoon in July, and starting grad school in August).

Most of my flow comes from non-directional vortechs, but I will try and lower my return outlets and see what that does to the shimmer. I think the problem is that I am just not used to it.

Welcome to the club of the frustrated photographers :lol: I can't take a good pic with the goddamn LEDs. Doing actinics is even worse. What kind of processing you did on PS?
I don't know if it will be possible to do good actinic shots with these, but I've never really been a fan of the actinic shots anyways (looks to fake IMO).

To start out with I would adjust the temperature in kelvin until I got something that looked close. My computer is right next to the fish tank, so I left the light on and constantly looked back and forth trying to match the colors of certain corals (green slimer, birds of paradise, red/peach digitata, green pavona, blue acropora). Then I adjusted the exposure (make sure to shoot everything in RAW) until my rockwork in the middle and bottom looked to be the appropriate brightness. Because of the location of the light my green candycane, BOP, green slimer, and most of the corals on top of the rock were horribly overexposed so I used the "adjustment brush" tool to paint those areas and lower the exposure even more, effectively burning them in. I then went back and adjusted the overall exposure and color temperature one last time. Finishing touches were made by tweaking the black, contrast, and sharpness levels.

Whew.

sammy113

04/19/2010, 01:00 PM

damn that sounds like a lot! gotta have to try some RAW shots

Taqpol

04/19/2010, 05:10 PM

I think Kcress mentioned this in another person's thread, but I would like to get it answered here.

In my 220 the current plan will be to run 5x 24 bulb emitters. That would be a total of 10 meanwells. Is it bad to have 10 meanwells running off a normal house power? I think Kcress said at >10 meanwells it would be prudent to start thinking about wiring situations that would allow me to run strings of LEDs in parallel instead of all individually.

TheFishMan65

04/19/2010, 05:55 PM

It all depends on the current draw. If you are running at 700ma then worst case you should be drawing 7 amps from the AC. In reality hopefully these are more efficeint then wasting the energy as heat. But to be sure oy could measure them. However I am betting they each draw less than 500 ma (sorry no time to search for specs). So ten will only dray 5 amps. Should be fine for any newer house even with pumps and such.

kcress

04/19/2010, 05:56 PM

Hi Taqpol. Nice build you have going. Thanks for the nice write up!

As for flocks, or herds, (aquariums.. pods), of MWs, these devices suck power in gulps from the power source. They only pull power in two small parts of a power cycle. This causes something called harmonics to appear. Harmonics cause heating of the power wires feeding whatever causes the harmonics.

Why? Because instead of the energy being smoothly consumed during the entire power line cycle all the required power must be drawn very rapidly at just the voltage peaks. So instead of a 1.2A draw over the whole power cycle you may actually be pulling 8A during a fraction of the cycle. Normally this is not a big deal but when you start having a bunch of something like this hooked up you can see where this goes. You might have an average current of 1.2A x 10 or 12A but this is coming in 8A x 10 or 80A pulses.

If you actually bought a switching supply that drew 12A it would be required to have a more expensive power factor correction front end that would force the unit to draw smooth power over the whole power line cycle. But, since these are small devices they don't bother with that more expensive front end.

Using a large number of them together, though, violates the spirit of the design.

What can happen if you proceed with 10 on a circuit is:
1) Your lights could flicker.

2) Your GFIs that you are running your tank with,(if you have a spec of brains and some self preservation), may false trip.

3) Your power wires will run MUCH hotter. (Including the ones in the wall.)

4) If you combine all of them in to a single cord it will run very warm. If you cover that cord with something it will likely catch fire eventually, and your home will increment the fire statistics in the most-common-cause column.

5) Other devices sharing the circuit or power phase may start to operate erratically.

6) You will be paying 50% more for your drivers.

7) You will have to put all these things somewhere!

8) If you notice the inrush on a MW it is something like 60A when you first turn it on. 10 x 60A = 600A.... Think your circuit breaker will let that pass for long enough to charge all the capacitive front ends?

So, Yes! It would be prudent to start running those number of LEDs in series-parallel groups on fewer drivers that are up closer to their ratings.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/19/2010, 07:06 PM

If you actually bought a switching supply that drew 12A it would be required to have a more expensive power factor correction front end that would force the unit to draw smooth power over the whole power line cycle. But, since these are small devices they don't bother with that more expensive front end.

How would one determine if a DC power supply had that sort of front end on it?

I'm going to be running ±200 LEDs on my big tank. All DIY CAT4101 drivers, on cheap AC-DC power supplies (hopefully something like the infamous mpja $15 special 6.5A 24v units). I'd need 6 of these units. Will I run into these power factor problems with these units? If so, what would be "better"?

Taqpol

04/19/2010, 07:12 PM

Troy McClure

04/19/2010, 07:38 PM

The blues alone are putting out a lot more par than I expected, love your work!

Ben

NeveSSL

04/19/2010, 11:08 PM

Absolutely great write up! You had a lot of info that I've been looking for, especially the PAR values with and without optics. :)

Many thanks for doing all of this! You've done a great job!

Brandon

kcress

04/20/2010, 05:28 AM

How would one determine if a DC power supply had that sort of front end on it?

They will be marked somewhere as that is currently a premium addition that new designs want. So marketing usually makes sure it's trumpeted somewhere. Otherwise it shows up in the spec sheet.
Look at this link:http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2094944.pdf Look at the third feature down. Also note the efficeincy of this unit with power factor correction. 94%

I'm going to be running ±200 LEDs on my big tank. All DIY CAT4101 drivers, on cheap AC-DC power supplies (hopefully something like the infamous mpja $15 special 6.5A 24v units). I'd need 6 of these units. Will I run into these power factor problems with these units? If so, what would be "better"?

You probably won't find PFC supplies as cheap. But you can look: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&categoryName=category_root&subCategoryName=Power%20Supplies%20%26%20Wall%20Adapters&category=45&jameco_page=54

I'd suggest just looking around and finding ONE supply that can run all your 200 by itself. In the larger sizes you would find most have PFC.

Another interesting and telling point. If you get a PFC supply for, say, your desktop PC, you will find that it will run twice as long on a UPS as the same exact computer without PFC, another example of the advantages of PFC which is now mandated for all supplies in Europe bigger than about 100W.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/20/2010, 06:00 AM

Dang.... Really makes me think I should just go with DWZM's DIY drivers, especially since it seems the only cost effective way to dim mass amounts of these things are through some sort of microcontroller. The APEX can control four channels of 0-10v, but word on the street is there is no other way to make it control more then four.

DWZM, I've read the first three pages of your thread but I keep getting side tracked. Yous said one of your drivers will control one string of eight LEDs at 1A, right? So I would need to make 15 to control my planned 120 bulbs? How many, and what type of power supply will I need to control that many drivers? Do they have any of the same drawbacks that Kcress just mentioned?

You should probably start at the end of that thread and read backwards. :lol: We've changed designs completely a few times, so it's important to know which design you're talking about since they have different features. The "problem" is that none of them are really designed for control via Apex (0-10v analog signal) since I was designing for control via 5v PWM signal. So you'd have to use some sort of intermediate circuit to convert. Also - the DIY drivers are all just DC-DC converters, so you still need an AC-DC power supply in front of it, which means (as kcress explained) you might still have power factor problems.

I find it hard to believe that the Apex can only control 4 meanwells per channel - I've never seen someone actually measure the current they pull on the DIM circuit, it would be really nice to know the actual number. One of the people I sent one of my arduino dimming shields to tried to measure but it was below the threshold his meter could detect.

They will be marked somewhere as that is currently a premium addition that new designs want. So marketing usually makes sure it's trumpeted somewhere. Otherwise it shows up in the spec sheet.
Look at this link:http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2094944.pdf Look at the third feature down. Also note the efficeincy of this unit with power factor correction. 94%

You probably won't find PFC supplies as cheap. But you can look: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&categoryName=category_root&subCategoryName=Power%20Supplies%20%26%20Wall%20Adapters&category=45&jameco_page=54

I'd suggest just looking around and finding ONE supply that can run all your 200 by itself. In the larger sizes you would find most have PFC.

Another interesting and telling point. If you get a PFC supply for, say, your desktop PC, you will find that it will run twice as long on a UPS as the same exact computer without PFC, another example of the advantages of PFC which is now mandated for all supplies in Europe bigger than about 100W.

I've seen a few very large DC supplies at the typical overstock hobby electronics places (mpja, etc.) so I'll check their datasheets. Some of them actually weren't THAT much more per watt. Ironically, until this came up, I had been thinking having more smaller supplies was "better" because it would reduce the impact if one failed.

TheFishMan65

04/20/2010, 06:04 AM

The power correction on the MPJA 24V 6.5a supply is .97 so I don't think it s a problem. But since kcress understands this better than me here are the specs (http://download.siliconexpert.com/pdfs/2009/5/11/0/54/4/ptrns_/manual/1585549.pdf).

Thanks in advance.

[EDIT]
What I am saying is that .97 is close enough to 1 that I do not think it will matter.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/20/2010, 06:47 AM

But notice it says "models with PFC." Then, a few lines up, it states that PFC models are auto-ranging (i.e. 90-240VAC input) while non-PFC models have a 120/240 switch select. The 6.5A 24v model I have has a switch, so it's non-PFC. From the model number info down in the chart, you can see that the non-PFC model numbers end with 1M and the PFC model numbers end with IP. So I guess the trick is finding the RIGHT one.

TheFishMan65

04/20/2010, 11:13 AM

Thanks for correcting me. I misread the statement on PFC above 60W - it is available it does not necessarily have it. However I noticed that they still have a large in rush current (even those with PFC). So Kcress what do we need to look for? Thanks

Taqpol

04/20/2010, 11:31 AM

The blues alone are putting out a lot more par than I expected, love your work!

Ben
I saw people over in Santoki's thread asking what the PAR value of blues alone were, so I thought I would test it. Needless to say I am pleasantly surprised! These numbers definitely make me feel better about the potential of doing 10whites/14 blues or even 8 whites/16 blues.

Absolutely great write up! You had a lot of info that I've been looking for, especially the PAR values with and without optics. :)

Many thanks for doing all of this! You've done a great job!

Brandon
Your welcome, and thank you for the compliment!

Taqpol

04/20/2010, 11:41 AM

You should probably start at the end of that thread and read backwards. :lol: We've changed designs completely a few times, so it's important to know which design you're talking about since they have different features. The "problem" is that none of them are really designed for control via Apex (0-10v analog signal) since I was designing for control via 5v PWM signal. So you'd have to use some sort of intermediate circuit to convert. Also - the DIY drivers are all just DC-DC converters, so you still need an AC-DC power supply in front of it, which means (as kcress explained) you might still have power factor problems.

I find it hard to believe that the Apex can only control 4 meanwells per channel - I've never seen someone actually measure the current they pull on the DIM circuit, it would be really nice to know the actual number. One of the people I sent one of my arduino dimming shields to tried to measure but it was below the threshold his meter could detect.

I've seen a few very large DC supplies at the typical overstock hobby electronics places (mpja, etc.) so I'll check their datasheets. Some of them actually weren't THAT much more per watt. Ironically, until this came up, I had been thinking having more smaller supplies was "better" because it would reduce the impact if one failed.
I'm sure the APEX has the current to control more then four drivers, my problem was that it only had four controllable channels. I want each individual string on an emitter to ramp up individually and be able to light up the tank from left to right.

Basically to even try something like that it would make sense to use an Arduino and your driver that goes down to 1% dimming. I know it wouldn't look perfect (one smooth sunrise to sunset) but I've seen people with multiple MH's try similar things and thought it looked cool. With LEDs it would be even better.

Thanks for correcting me. I misread the statement on PFC above 60W - it is available it does not necessarily have it. However I noticed that they still have a large in rush current (even those with PFC). So Kcress what do we need to look for? Thanks
I agree. Kcress, which power supply would you use to power 100-200 LEDs?

I specifically got the meanwell's so that the power supply would be built into the driver and I wouldn't have to worry about the power supplies range and potentially burning down the house. Ironic...

der_wille_zur_macht

04/20/2010, 11:54 AM

Keep in mind that even at 1%, these LEDs will look bright: maybe about as bright as a common LED. But if you had several banks and were able to start them all at 1% and turn them on one at a time, you'd get a little more resolution.

Jepjep13

04/20/2010, 02:04 PM

Does anyone know if there is any problem using a heatsink that is anodized black?

Thanks

der_wille_zur_macht

04/20/2010, 02:14 PM

You'll loose a little bit of efficiency in the thermal transfer from LED MCPCB to the heatsink, but gain a bit in transfer from the heatsink to the air. It's probably not a significant difference considering the "standard practice" for these LED builds tends to err on the side of overkill from a thermal management perspective.

Chrishew09

04/20/2010, 07:34 PM

Here use a larger meanwell supply for you guys that are doing larger arrays.

http://www.astrodyne.com/ecatalog/usa/led-power-supply

Once you decide on a model number shop around some electronic distributes websites for better pricing, like www.futureelectronics.com.

Good luck ;)

kcress

04/21/2010, 04:43 AM

TheFishMan65

04/21/2010, 08:10 AM

I was thinking about the DC power supply issue. I realize taqpol is using meanwells, but the discussion started here. So sorry if we are hijacking the thread.

I talked to an EE friend and as I now understand it.

This discussion is for MPJA 34 V 6.5 A

The first problem is the huge in rush current of a possible 40-60 amps. This does not blow a fuse because it is not there for long enough. However, if enough power supplies turn on at the same time then there will be a problem. A simple solution is to not turn on all the power supplies at the same time. So turn one on, then the next, etc. Maybe this could be done with a series of relays.

Now the next issue the kcress mentioned is the actual drawing of the power. In a simple rectifier circuit power is drawn only when the voltage is above the output voltage. With a 24 volt output this is a lot less than the 48 volts of the meanwells. This I did not discuss with the EE, but if we have a 24 volt supply at 6.3 amps and say 70% efficiency (MPJA is closer to 85%, but a lot out there are only 70%). Then the input power is 24 * 6.3 / .70 = 216 watts. So for a 120 volt supply this is 2 amps. iF this were to draw over half the time then it would draw 4 amps. Is this the correct logic? If so we can only put 2 or 3 on a normal household circuit.

Soferik

04/21/2010, 09:47 AM

[QUOTE=Taqpol;16919347]Thats the graph I was looking for! I wonder if D is what I should be going for then. Definitely easier to control with an off the shelf controller (APEX). Does anyone on this thread have experience with the APEX? I'm pretty sure it only has four 0-10v outputs but I know its highly modular. What part number would I have to get to upgrade that to maybe 8 0-10v outlets? I wanted to control the whites and blues on all four of my blocks separately.

Hey Taqpol, I am also currently looking at the Apex to use as a controller for my Led project, and it looks like they have a cable that can be purchased for about 20 dollars that plugs into one of the 0-10 outputs and has a pair of bare ended wires at the other end for sending the 0-10 output to two dimmable ballasts. In other words, one 0-10 port to control 2 meanwell drivers for a total of 8 drivers. I am hoping this is the case because I am hoping to control 2 tunze 6055's as well as 4 meanwells for my 48 led fixture, 2 for whites and 2 for blues. Hopefully someone with more experience with using Apex to control meanwells can chime in and give some info?

NeveSSL

04/21/2010, 09:56 AM

Crap... photobucket sucks and is blocking your pics.

Brandon

Taqpol

04/21/2010, 11:07 AM

Hey Taqpol, I am also currently looking at the Apex to use as a controller for my Led project, and it looks like they have a cable that can be purchased for about 20 dollars that plugs into one of the 0-10 outputs and has a pair of bare ended wires at the other end for sending the 0-10 output to two dimmable ballasts. In other words, one 0-10 port to control 2 meanwell drivers for a total of 8 drivers. I am hoping this is the case because I am hoping to control 2 tunze 6055's as well as 4 meanwells for my 48 led fixture, 2 for whites and 2 for blues. Hopefully someone with more experience with using Apex to control meanwells can chime in and give some info?
You can most definitely do this. Technically you can have a ridiculously high number of dimming wires coming out of one port, because the dimming circuit in the meanwells draws micro-amps of power. The problem for me is that all of the wires plugged into one port are controlled by the same programming, so I would not be able to have enough programs to dim each string on each block individually. Since it looks like I am going to have to use DIY drivers because of my power situation that are controlled by PWM, I might as well spend the $30 to get an Arduino.

Crap... photobucket sucks and is blocking your pics.

Brandon
Yeah.... posted too many pictures this month and went over my bandwidth limit for a free account! Thats your guy's fault! ;)

der_wille_zur_macht

04/21/2010, 11:17 AM

You can most definitely do this.

Agreed, but assuming it is a standard RJ connector and not something weird and proprietary, $20 for the cable to do so is beyond highway robbery. It should be more like $2.

Taqpol

04/21/2010, 11:20 AM

Thanks for the link to Astrodyne. They make great stuff at good prices.

One option for lots of LEDs, if you are buying controllers, would be something like the CLG150. One of those would run 52 LEDs and they come with PFC. Use four and you have your 200+.
http://www.astrodyne.com/smartcat/pdf/CLG150.pdf

You would have to check the dimming abilities. I couldn't actually figure it out in the allotted time.

As for you DIY driver folks. I could hunt around and find a supply but it would be better if you guys do the math and get a supply the size YOU need for your particular setups. Just remember, you want one that has PFC. Snag them anywhere you can find them at a good price, when you need them.

Figure your maximum current needs. Say you want to run 200 LEDs via 24VDC. 24V/3.5V/LED = 6 LEDs per string.
200/6 = 33.3 strings. (yowch!)

OK. If you stick with 700mA/string. 700mA x 33 = 23A.

24V x 23A = 552W. You need to look for a 600W class supply. Most will be PFC in that region. You'd also want to see Class B emissions so you have no electrical noise problems in a home setting. Most will have a nice soft start feature too.
I see several on ebay for about $300. As long as they're PFC you could even use two 300W supplies which might be easier to find. (Don't get me wrong - you CANNOT parallel supplies.)

You also would want to do a nice solid wiring job. Use a bus and screws or terminal blocks. 600W is some serious energy. :)

Now Tarpol, if you already have a case of MWs I guess you could give it a shot. Just be aware of the warnings I put out there. Hook it all up cleanly and then run with it. Very thoroughly check the cord temperatures and look for flickering house lights. If you have issues with either you should abort and make changes. It could work OK - or not.
Thanks for the information!

Luckily I only bought these two Meanwell drivers for my prototype model, so for my actual large tank setup I will use DIY drivers and PFC power supplies. I am thinking it would be smarter to use two large power supplies. That way even if I use a mix of XR-Es and XP-Gs that have different voltage drops I can still trim the individual power supply pots so that they are more efficient and I don't overheat my driver ICs (Saying that I never put XP-Gs on the same string as XR-Es).

My fixture will only have 120 LEDs. 120 / 6 (LEDs per string) = 20 strings.
20 strings x 0.7A = 14A
24v x 14A = 336 Watts.

So I should look for two 24v/175 watt power supplies with PFC? Would it be easier/cheaper to just look for one 24v/350W power supply?

I was thinking about the DC power supply issue. I realize taqpol is using meanwells, but the discussion started here. So sorry if we are hijacking the thread.

I talked to an EE friend and as I now understand it.

This discussion is for MPJA 34 V 6.5 A

The first problem is the huge in rush current of a possible 40-60 amps. This does not blow a fuse because it is not there for long enough. However, if enough power supplies turn on at the same time then there will be a problem. A simple solution is to not turn on all the power supplies at the same time. So turn one on, then the next, etc. Maybe this could be done with a series of relays.

Now the next issue the kcress mentioned is the actual drawing of the power. In a simple rectifier circuit power is drawn only when the voltage is above the output voltage. With a 24 volt output this is a lot less than the 48 volts of the meanwells. This I did not discuss with the EE, but if we have a 24 volt supply at 6.3 amps and say 70% efficiency (MPJA is closer to 85%, but a lot out there are only 70%). Then the input power is 24 * 6.3 / .70 = 216 watts. So for a 120 volt supply this is 2 amps. iF this were to draw over half the time then it would draw 4 amps. Is this the correct logic? If so we can only put 2 or 3 on a normal household circuit.
Not a hijack at all, I need to know this!

I am thinking about getting a second EnergyBar 8 to go with my APEX. With this I would easily be able to stagger the on times for multiple power supplies, but the problem would be after a power outage when everything turns on at once. I wonder if theres some way you can program the APEX to handle this...

Also, I am lucky enough to have my fish room on the other side of a wal from my circuit breaker so I plan on running one, if not two dedicated 20 Amp circuits for fish tank equipment.

kcress

04/21/2010, 01:45 PM

The first problem is the huge in rush current of a possible 40-60 amps. This does not blow a fuse because it is not there for long enough. However, if enough power supplies turn on at the same time then there will be a problem. A simple solution is to not turn on all the power supplies at the same time. So turn one on, then the next, etc. Maybe this could be done with a series of relays.

It is normally not as bad as you'd think. The reason is because your wiring and the power cord is substantially undersized for the inrush currents these suppiers demand. So the wiring becomes the current limit. They represent a large resistor to the inrush and reduce the inrush substantially while extending the length of time. You do still play chicken with the circuit breaker's trip curves during this event. With a truck load of non-PFC drivers you could try starting them all at once as it might work. But, make sure your design allows you to break them into smaller groups if needed.

Now the next issue the kcress mentioned is the actual drawing of the power. In a simple rectifier circuit power is drawn only when the voltage is above the output voltage. With a 24 volt output this is a lot less than the 48 volts of the meanwells. This I did not discuss with the EE, but if we have a 24 volt supply at 6.3 amps and say 70% efficiency (MPJA is closer to 85%, but a lot out there are only 70%). Then the input power is 24 * 6.3 / .70 = 216 watts. So for a 120 volt supply this is 2 amps. iF this were to draw over half the time then it would draw 4 amps. Is this the correct logic? If so we can only put 2 or 3 on a normal household circuit.

This info is correct for a linear supply but not in the cases we are contemplating with switchers. Switchers don't have any of the input verse output relationship you describe above.

Thanks for the information!

.....so for my actual large tank setup I will use DIY drivers and PFC power supplies..

My fixture will only have 120 LEDs. 120 / 6 (LEDs per string) = 20 strings.
20 strings x 0.7A = 14A
24v x 14A = 336 Watts.

So I should look for two 24v/175 watt power supplies with PFC? Would it be easier/cheaper to just look for one 24v/350W power supply?

I'd look for a single larger one (PFC) with a fall-back to multiple smaller ones.

der_wille_zur_macht

04/21/2010, 02:13 PM

I just bought three of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130384267088&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1088wt_1165

They're roughly the same cost per watt of output as the cheap 6.5A units from mpja but are 13A output and include PFC.

NeveSSL

04/21/2010, 02:29 PM

Nice find!

I love eBay. :D

Brandon

der_wille_zur_macht

04/21/2010, 02:47 PM

They're used but they were a tiny fraction of what the same thing sells for new. If I put them in service and one dies, I've got a bunch of the 6.5A mpja supplies I could swap to as backups.

kcress

04/21/2010, 03:28 PM

That's a great find. Those will work fine.

Taqpol

04/21/2010, 03:37 PM

That is an amazing find, especially at that price! I just bought two of them!

I know Kcress suggested one larger supply, but the only Meanwell PFC supply I found bigger then this was a 500W model at over $140 from Jameco. Kinda sucks because I only need 14 amps and these do 13, but here are my justifications:

-Even if I go with two different types of LEDs I can adjust the individual power supplies to match.

-If one goes out I will still have some amount of light over the tank.

-Even though it can go up to 13 amps, it will only draw as much power as I need.

-And if I only use 7 amps per power supply that gives my a lot of room to grow and expand if my LED needs change in the future.

Does this sound like a good power supply, Kcress? Do you think i would have toruble starting two of these up at the same time on a normal household circuit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PFC protection should also prevent the harmonics that could torch my house, correct?

Taqpol

04/21/2010, 03:38 PM

That's a great find. Those will work fine.
Haha, awesome!

Do you think starting two on the same circuit at the same time will be ok? Also, my previous question about PFC protection and electrical fires.

kcress

04/22/2010, 04:51 AM

Haha, awesome!

Do you think starting two on the same circuit at the same time will be ok? Also, my previous question about PFC protection and electrical fires.

I suspect you'll be OK starting those two at once.

I'm not following your second question....:confused:

Taqpol

04/22/2010, 11:19 AM

I'm not following your second question....:confused:
The standard meanwells caused the harmonics that you said can heat up the AC wires going to the driver and in the wall itself. I thought you said that this had the potential to get hot enough to cause fires.

As I think I understand it, PFC draws power smoothly from the entire AC 'wave' so there is no risk of excessively heating the power chords, correct?

Constantne

04/22/2010, 11:26 AM

Nice Build and write-up

Ahanix

04/22/2010, 12:51 PM

I love your LED build. One thing that concerns me (with most of the LED builds I have seen even) is the amount of thermal paste that everyone is using, even with the thermal pads. The only reason why thermal paste/pads are used is to fill in the microscopic impurities of the two surfaces that come in contact. Take for instance Arctic Silver: When you put this on a cpu, you put a very very very thin layer of the stuff on the heatsink, even then most of it is wasted as it is "squished" out of the way. Extra spacing between these two surfaces is only going to cause less heat dissipation.

I guess my only question is, why in all of the LED build threads is this issue not brought up? I'm assuming that the bottom of the star boards is copper or some form... or are they just plastic?

Thanks

der_wille_zur_macht

04/22/2010, 12:56 PM

The star boards are metal core PCBs. There's no plastic - the vast majority (all?) of the commercial LED MCPCBs are aluminum. I agree, only a dab of thermal compound is needed and most people probably use far too much.

NeveSSL

04/22/2010, 12:57 PM

To be honest, coming from IT, I've been wondering the same thing, Ahanix. :) I actually have brought it up to a local guy who is building a DIY LED light. I believe that most of it does end up coming out when it gets "squished", but it wastes a lot. I don't think people understand how little it takes!

But I also didn't think that this build was bad or anything. I've seen builds that had thermal epoxy all the way around the LED. It was kinda scary.

Brandon

Taqpol

04/22/2010, 01:27 PM

I did use way too much thermal epoxy. For me it was hard to judge the size I would need to get full coverage, I would put on a dab smaller then a pea but it would still ooze out the edges to some degree. As long as I pushed them in as far as it would go I should still get good heat transfer, but I will waste money in excess thermal epoxy. For me thats not such a big deal because the thermal epoxy is pretty cheap and they give you so much of it.

NeveSSL

04/22/2010, 01:35 PM

The problem is not so much the cost but the possibility of it becoming an insulator. :)

I believe you would probably just want about the amount of a BB on there... it takes very, very little.

Just a thought. :)

Brandon

CJO

04/22/2010, 01:36 PM

One thing that concerns me (with most of the LED builds I have seen even) is the amount of thermal paste that everyone is using, even with the thermal pads. The only reason why thermal paste/pads are used is to fill in the microscopic impurities of the two surfaces that come in contact.

Agreed- metal to metal contact is the best for thermal transfer. Air is a good insulator so the thermal paste is used to fill in any small air gaps between the LED pad and the heat sink. I plan to put on a little and scrape it with a credit card, similar to how it is done with overclocked PC CPUs.

CJ

kcress

04/22/2010, 08:00 PM

The standard meanwells caused the harmonics that you said can heat up the AC wires going to the driver and in the wall itself. I thought you said that this had the potential to get hot enough to cause fires.

As I think I understand it, PFC draws power smoothly from the entire AC 'wave' so there is no risk of excessively heating the power chords, correct?

You have correctly absorbed thy information!

>excessive amount of thermal paste<

why in all of the LED build threads is this issue not brought up?
This has been discussed at least four separate times.

swearint

04/23/2010, 08:01 AM

I am thinking about getting a second EnergyBar 8 to go with my APEX. With this I would easily be able to stagger the on times for multiple power supplies, but the problem would be after a power outage when everything turns on at once. I wonder if theres some way you can program the APEX to handle this...

Yes, add the following to each Outlet that is controlling a LED fixture:

If Power EB8_x OFF MMM Then OFF

x is the EB8 address

MMM is the amount of time in minutes that the Outlet will remain OFF after power is restored.

Just stagger the duration for each Outlet. This of course depends on how you have backup power configured. There has also been some issues with the Apex properly detecting power loss on the EB8, but I think those have been addressed.

Todd

Ahanix

04/23/2010, 10:39 AM

You have correctly absorbed thy information!

This has been discussed at least four separate times.

Ah, well I am glad that this has been brought up a few times then atleast, I just hate to worry about every LED build I see because people aren't getting the amount of cooling they should with those huge heatsinks.

After being in IT for so long I have become really OCD about that kind of stuff haha, mostly from overclocking computers at home though.

Taqpol

04/23/2010, 11:43 AM

Yes, add the following to each Outlet that is controlling a LED fixture:

If Power EB8_x OFF MMM Then OFF

x is the EB8 address

MMM is the amount of time in minutes that the Outlet will remain OFF after power is restored.

Just stagger the duration for each Outlet. This of course depends on how you have backup power configured. There has also been some issues with the Apex properly detecting power loss on the EB8, but I think those have been addressed.

Todd

Thanks! I'll keep all this in mind but I'm pretty sure I'm going to move the LEDs/Arduino/Something else important (return pump?) onto its own 20 amp circuit.

I have a ReefKeeper 2 now, and I am really excited that you can actually program the neptune controllers, not just live with the programs Digital Aquatics thinks you need.

NeveSSL

04/23/2010, 11:54 AM

RK2s are ancient! :) I have an RKE and like it a lot (MUCH more powerful than the RK2), but the Apex is also a great controller.

Brandon

Taqpol

04/23/2010, 11:58 AM

So, now that I am going with PWM controlled drivers I am going to be using an Arduino to dim and control all of my lights. Here is what i want out of it:

-Dim ten individual channels of PWM.

-Power and time my LED fans.

-Potentially read temperatures of each individual heatsink (5) and be able to shut down the lights of they get too hot.

The Mega board has 14 PWM channels but costs twice as much as the Duemilanove. The Duemilanove only has 8 PWM capable channels (I think). Is there some kind of shield or modification I can make to the Duemilanove to increase its PWM channels for less then the $30 increase to the Mega?

I would want to power 5x 12v computer fans off of the arduino. They don't need to be ran at 12v, but I think this is still too much for the Arduino's onboard power supply and dimming 10x 5v PWM channels. Any idea what to do there?

How easy is it to make temp sensors? How many pins would a temperature sensor take up?

der_wille_zur_macht

04/23/2010, 12:12 PM

The Mega board has 14 PWM channels but costs twice as much as the Duemilanove. The Duemilanove only has 8 PWM capable channels (I think). Is there some kind of shield or modification I can make to the Duemilanove to increase its PWM channels for less then the $30 increase to the Mega?

Duemilanove (and any ATMega8/168/328-based clone) has only 6 pins capable of hardware PWM. The Mega does indeed have 14 PWM-capable pins. You can get "expanders" but they're often more trouble than they're worth IMHO - if you really want extras and want an off the shelf product, get the Mega.

If you are pinching pennies, get one of the "official" Mega clones - i.e. Seeedstudio's Seeduino Mega, which is ~$14 cheaper than a true Mega.

I would want to power 5x 12v computer fans off of the arduino. They don't need to be ran at 12v, but I think this is still too much for the Arduino's onboard power supply and dimming 10x 5v PWM channels. Any idea what to do there?

You should pretty much never plan on powering anything from the Arduino's onboard power supply, except other low-power circuitry. Something like a fan is pretty much out of the question. What you need to do is use the Arduino as a controller not a power source. So it simply turns the "real" power source on and off, it doesn't provide the power itself. Depending on your specific needs, this might mean a transistor or a relay or some dedicated driver circuit. For something like a fan, you could use a transistor. So, you use a dedicated 12v power source to run the fans, and the Arduino turns a transistor in that circuit on and off. Check out this section in the Arduino Playground:

http://www.arduino.cc/playground/Main/InterfacingWithHardware#Physical_Mechanical

How easy is it to make temp sensors? How many pins would a temperature sensor take up?

Depends on the style of temp sensor. At the simple end of the spectrum, you'd probably use a NTC thermistor - that is, a resistor that changes value based on temperature. You provide power to the resistor from the Arduino's 5v source, then measure the voltage drop across the resistor with one of the analog input pins. This method is great, but it consumes an analog input pin for each temperature sensor you want, which means you'll run out quickly.

So the other option is to use a "smart" temperature sensor that has some digital electronics onboard, so it can run on a bus of some sort and provide the temperature (in digital form) when asked. By a vast margin, the most popular way to do this is with One Wire temperature probes, from Dallas (Maxim). There's a section on the Arduino Playground for this, too:

http://www.arduino.cc/playground/Learning/OneWire

Basically, you dedicate a single digital pin to function as your One Wire bus, then you can tack on as many of the probes as you'd like. There's some wrangling you have to do to get each probe's address so you can call them uniquely, but it's not a big deal.

serpentman

04/23/2010, 01:07 PM

The standard meanwells caused the harmonics that you said can heat up the AC wires going to the driver and in the wall itself. I thought you said that this had the potential to get hot enough to cause fires.

As I think I understand it, PFC draws power smoothly from the entire AC 'wave' so there is no risk of excessively heating the power chords, correct?

I'm not sure if I missed it but did someone address this question?

I just read this and have been successfully scared to death. Was planning on MW's for my large build. Back to the drawing board...

Now hoping its not too late to cancel the order...

Taqpol

04/23/2010, 01:34 PM

You have correctly absorbed thy information

I'm not sure if I missed it but did someone address this question?

I just read this and have been successfully scared to death. Was planning on MW's for my large build. Back to the drawing board...

Now hoping its not too late to cancel the order...

It has been answered. We would be totally safe using the PFC supplies that DWZM posted the ebay link too.

serpentman

04/23/2010, 04:26 PM

I apologize for hijacking your thread.

Conceptually, I think I understand the inherent risks with running large groups of drivers.

However, how risky would it be if I were to split 12 drivers (6:6) running at 700mA or less across two separate circuits?

kcress

04/23/2010, 06:35 PM

However, how risky would it be if I were to split 12 drivers (6:6) running at 700mA or less across two separate circuits?

Multiple circuits only partially helps in this issue. It reduces the inrush on a circuit by half, of course. It will reduce the heating also, but it still leaves the harmonics that can cause various odd power issues in a home and even in homes around you sharing the same power transformer.

I would start to be concerned somewhere around 8 of these in a house... They could work fine they could not. They could work fine and something else in the house could stop working well... To me the potential for failure just isn't worth it.

For bigger builds that you consider doing, that may need 8 or more MWs, there are several ways to avoid these issues. MWs aren't the only LED current controllers out there. There are several makers. Hunt around and find one that has PFC. I pointed one out in the last day or two in one of these threads ;) ???. Stack up all the PFC ones you want, or until they trip your breaker with their combined inrushes.

or,

Run DC current controllers like many here are doing. Use the DIY ones several folks are using or use ones like Buckpucks. Feed these DC controllers with DC supplies that have built in PFC like we just discussed in this thread?

or,

stop wasting 2/3s of your MWs and start running the strings in parallel to get the LED counts you need without making MW rich. This does, however, require that you use some fuses and balancing resistors if you want to do it painlessly and safely for the LEDs. Or more tediously without balancing resistors.

Historical Note: I was the original contributor to point out the hazards of parallel strings. People have taken that to heart and we thankfully haven't had any zipper jobs that cost people dozens of fried LEDs. This has allowed many many people to build successful fixtures and advanced the art here dramatically. It has prevented tragedies that can stop a burgeoning new advance in our hobby.

Now our build sizes based on previous shining successes are growing very large. However by continuing to avoid the slightly more complex parallel builds on these large ones we are actually starting to cause a new issue like this one with excessive switching supplies in a house.

If you want a big fixture you really should start optimizing for getting the most out of these expensive drivers. This means adding a fuse to each string and a balancing resistor.

serpentman; Twelve MWs would be able to drive 432 HPLEDs at 430mA each... Just how big is your tank??

serpentman

04/26/2010, 11:48 AM

Not big enough, lol. The total surface area is 36"x72" so I figure I need between 150-200 LEDs.

For what its worth, I thought I'd share. Not that I doubted you Kcress, I just thought it would be good to hear from the horse's mouth. Kudos as your assumptions were accurate. I spoke with the technical service department of Meanwell USA. I was actually impressed that they called me rather than email me back. Although there was a bit of a language barrier, the person I spoke with did say that the peak power issue could present a potential problem when using multiple drivers. If the breaker did not trip, there is the risk of overheating the wires and fire if not using the proper AC wire (which would be beyond standard home wiring. He wasn't sure about harmonics issues outside the home or elsewhere. However, I heard enough to decide to go with another design...

He went on to say that the recommended safest way to run large arrays would be to use a driver with PFC.

Hope this helps....

der_wille_zur_macht

04/26/2010, 11:59 AM

stop wasting 2/3s of your MWs and start running the strings in parallel to get the LED counts you need without making MW rich.

This ties in with one of your other suggestions, but another alternative would be to stop using ELN-60-48's an use another meanwell driver, where the waste isn't implied in series strings. It seems habit on these forums that when someone says "meanwell" the ELN-60-48 is implied. They make a bunch of other LED drivers though: i.e. PLC series if you don't care about dimming, or one of the many other dimmable drivers they produce. The PLN series is adjustable, and even has PFC! In fact, the ELN series is practically the only LED driver they make WITHOUT PFC. Ironic that it's become the standard choice in these builds.

On the subject of Irony, the PFC AC-DC supplies I'm using with my DIY drivers (from eBay, auction linked above) are made by Meanwell, too.

NeveSSL

04/26/2010, 01:03 PM

This ties in with one of your other suggestions, but another alternative would be to stop using ELN-60-48's an use another meanwell driver, where the waste isn't implied in series strings. It seems habit on these forums that when someone says "meanwell" the ELN-60-48 is implied. They make a bunch of other LED drivers though: i.e. PLC series if you don't care about dimming, or one of the many other dimmable drivers they produce. The PLN series is adjustable, and even has PFC! In fact, the ELN series is practically the only LED driver they make WITHOUT PFC. Ironic that it's become the standard choice in these builds.

On the subject of Irony, the PFC AC-DC supplies I'm using with my DIY drivers (from eBay, auction linked above) are made by Meanwell, too.

Thank you for pointing this out. If bought 5 at a time, the PLN series is actually the same price as the ELN series! $39.29, that is. (http://www.cdiweb.com/PortalProductDetail.aspx?prodid=395241&pid=568) :)

Brandon

der_wille_zur_macht

04/26/2010, 01:06 PM

Worth pointing out that dimming/current limiting is implemented in different ways in some of the other "dimmable" product lines, so it's worth being careful to ensure you get something compatible with your overall design.

NeveSSL

04/26/2010, 01:16 PM

Another good point. It looks like the ELN series is the only one with a dimming option. That sucks.

Oh well. It was a good thought while it lasted... heh.

Brandon

CJO

04/26/2010, 01:28 PM

stop wasting 2/3s of your MWs and start running the strings in parallel to get the LED counts you need without making MW rich. This does, however, require that you use some fuses and balancing resistors if you want to do it painlessly and safely for the LEDs. Or more tediously without balancing resistors.

So, for driving two sets of 12 3-watt LED's, I could just run each set in parallel with a 0.5A fast-acting fuse on each? No need for balancing resistors since both strings are the same?

CJ

der_wille_zur_macht

04/26/2010, 01:35 PM

No need for balancing resistors since both strings are the same?

CJ

Do some searching in the other big LED threads. People have tested HP LEDs from the same lot and found Vf differences of several percent, which can translate to tens of percent differences in current. If you go parallel, you should "bin" your LEDs by testing each one for Vf at the intended current. Then, build strings with as close to the same total Vf as possible.

TheFishMan65

04/26/2010, 01:37 PM

In theory yes, but there are slight differences in the LEDs. If the overall current as .8 or maybe .9 you might be okay. But if you tried to drive at 1 amp chances are that one string would go. It might take a little while because it maybe .500001 amps then the next would go immediately.

[EDIT]
Beaten again

der_wille_zur_macht

04/26/2010, 01:40 PM

Besides potential for frying the LEDs or tripping fuses due to Vf differences in the string, there's just the plain awkwardness if some of your LEDs are randomly putting out 20% more light than others.

CJO

04/26/2010, 01:49 PM

OK, that makes sense.

Thanks,
CJ

kcress

04/27/2010, 01:28 AM

So yes you'd probably want the resistors.

Taqpol

04/27/2010, 11:00 PM

Here we go:

FTS with NO optics.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/42710FTSNone.jpg

FTS with the new 80 Degree optics.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/42710FTS80.jpg

Old FTS with 60 degree optics.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LEDFTS.jpg

PAR numbers for NO optics.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/42710NonePAR.jpg

PAR for 80 degree.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/42710_80PAR.jpg

and 60 degree PAR for reference.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/41710LED10Kpar.jpg

For whatever reason the moment I popped the 80 degree optics I immediately fell in love with the crisp white color! There was none of the purple I had been complaining about with the 60 degrees or even the with no optics degrees that I tried today. Then I popped the 60's back on for comparison and it was the same color, just tighter and more PAR. I wonder if the LEDs needed time to burn in?

Regardless, those 80 degree numbers don't look too bad, and I would feel comfortable lighting a 4'x2' footprint tank with only two of these fixtures, especially if it was a shallow tank.

Taqpol

04/27/2010, 11:07 PM

I also tried out something nifty.

Here is a FTS with no optics on the white bulbs and 60 degree optics on the blue bulbs.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/42710FTSW120B60.jpg
It really concentrates the blues into the center and spreads out the coverage. If you had three fixtures and really liked a blue look this might be feasible.

Here is a FTS with 60 degree optics on the blues and 40 degree optics on the white.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/42710FTSW40B60.jpg

I liked this color and the more intense but still balanced whites, so i took some PAR readings.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/42710FTSW40B60PAR.jpg

1000 PAR barely above the surface of the water! I feel like it still got good coverage, but if you are going to try and spotlight something on the sand bed, like a clam, I would mix in some 40 degree optics directly over it.

NeveSSL

04/27/2010, 11:38 PM

Wow! Thanks for all of those numbers and shots!

Its really neat to see the different light spreads.

Approximately how far is the fixture from the actual surface of the water?

Brandon

der_wille_zur_macht

04/28/2010, 06:08 AM

This thread is turning into a really great resource for comparing different combinations of optics. Thanks for the effort.

TheFishMan65

04/28/2010, 07:03 AM

I agree I am just confused why the tighter optics are not increasing par at bottom of the tank. I was planning to use 40 (only 100) to reach 200 par at the bottom, but the above says i would be better off with 80 (145 par).

Taqpol can you explain this? thanks in advance

der_wille_zur_macht

04/28/2010, 07:22 AM

The rest of the numbers seem to confirm that the 40 degree optic is producing a tighter beam than the 60s, as expected.

The measurements at the bottom of the tank (near that zoa colony) look very off-center (close to the front glass) which would explain why the wider optics are showing a higher number. I'd be willing to bet that if the array was larger or more spread out, or the measurement was taken straight down, the narrower optics would give higher numbers.

TheFishMan65

04/28/2010, 08:41 AM

That makes sense. I forgot he said the number were for near to corals. Thanks

Eel-byte

04/28/2010, 11:33 AM

This is great info. I almost have the wife convinced going to leds.

Taqpol

04/28/2010, 12:30 PM

The PVC fixture holds the light 12" over the rim of the tank, so I would say it is ~13.5" from the very surface of the water.

About the 80 Degree optics, I'm sure if I did another 3D graph the change in intensity would be noticeable but as it is I took these readings "in situ". All numbers are supposed to be PAR readings directly infront of the corals they are over, so as DWZM stated the sandbed number in front of the Zoanthids is basically touching the front glass, a minimum of 12" away from the center of the fixture horizontally. Then again, look at the numbers on top of the rock island directly under the fixture. The 60 degree optics absolutely blow away the 80 degree optics!

I really wish I had at least two fixtures to play with, as I am assuming having the overlap of their light will not only increase the perceived coverage, but the actuall PAR as well. You really needed multiple fixtures with this type of lighting, as the intensity drops off fast near the edges.

Taqpol

04/28/2010, 12:47 PM

Heres another thought I've been having, after seeing all the numbers I posted does this make sense to everyone?

In my future tank which will be 72"x30"x24" with two major SPS islands on the side and a clam or two in the central sandy valley I plan on using five fixtures. Two pairs will be clustered directly over the islands on either side of the tank and they will be turned so that the 10" long side of the 8.4"x10" heatsink will run front to back to get the most coverage on the 30" wide tank. I'll have acess to a PAR meter down there so if I can swing it the outside edges of the fixtures will have 80 degree optics and the inside bulbs will have 60 degree optics. The center fixture will be smack dab in the center of the tank, mounted at the same height, but will have no optics and will be primarily used for coverage (no need to intensely light a sandy valley). That being said I will probably use four or six 40 degree optics strategically placed on the center fixture to really spotlight and blast the clams all the way down on the sandbed.

erics3000

05/04/2010, 12:32 AM

j-dizzle

05/04/2010, 12:58 AM

great write up hope to see the groth and progress of your tank with this setup. great step by step diy!

Taqpol

05/04/2010, 04:43 PM

Wow your build really looks nice. I haven't been following up with all the led threads lately. I barely have time maintain my tank. A while back one of my 400w MH ballast took a crap on me it was an old magnetic. I never replaced it like my other electronic ballast. I have just been running 3 mh and my vho’s. I have been starting to add more corals to my tank (My display is 90x30x25) and need to get the 4th light going again. I think build a block like your would be a great way to start since I was planning on replacing that MH anyway. I could compare it with my other mh and really get a good idea.

Your setup how do you think it would compare with a 400w MH? I know I need to hit the threads again and starting getting the basic ideas of how many bulbs I will need, but figured I would rack your guys brains for a little. If the first one turns out good than I could build 3 more. The main thing is it needs to be stronger if not as good as a 400mh. Just curious to hear you’re thought on this.

Thanks

It is kind of hard for me to compare my LEDs to a 400w MH as i have never owned one or even seen PAR numbers that a 400 watter produces. Here is what I can tell you:

My 24 LEDs with 60 degree optics produces as much, if not more, PAR as a 250w MH in air, according to my LFS owner. I have heard people say that with 40 degree optics you can obtain PARs equivalent to that of a 400w MH directly under the bulb. The biggest difference with our optic situation over normal MH's is that the light intensity drops off far more drastically as you near the edges of the tank. You can see this in my tank PAR pictures above that show only ~100 PAR on the edges of my sand bed.

Basically, if you want 400w MH power you will need to use 40 degree optics, but this will most definitely cast a "spotlight" of light in your tank unless you mount the fixture very far from the surface of the water. Since you will lose some intensity of the light traveling through air, it is better to mount the lights closer to the surface of the water, but then you will need many more bulbs to cover for the lack of coverage you get with 40 degree optics.

Did any of that make sense?

erics3000

05/04/2010, 05:41 PM

Perfect...I do remember something in one of the other threads about los of light a saw your nice graphs. There is something about plasma that really grabs me. blha blah thanks for the info

wesley6610

05/04/2010, 05:41 PM

I followed and understand exactly as I had to switching from 40's to 60's and bring the fixture closer to the water level as a result as well.

Dejavu

05/04/2010, 06:27 PM

This thread has been nominated for May's thread of the Month. You can vote here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843660):thumbsup:.

tahiriqbal

05/04/2010, 07:11 PM

How about 50/50 mix of 40 and 60 degree lens. 40 degree for the inner string of LEDs or just for white and 60 degree or even exrta wide lens for outer string of LEDs or just for the royal blues!!! This may help to overcome any issues with light spread, just a thought!!

kcress

05/04/2010, 08:18 PM

Taqpol

05/04/2010, 10:14 PM

Lets be a little careful here with the optics statements. Just switching from 60 to 40 does not change a system's light footprint from 200W MH class to 400W MH class. What it does is reduce the area the light from one LED - strikes at the target. That will make the brightness in the center of that target brighter. It makes the target area substantially smaller.

This means switching a fixture designed for 60 optics to 40 optics results in a bunch of really bright polkadots. If you want a 40 degree rig you should really be building it from scratch for 40 degrees. This may mean you need all the LEDs 20 or 30% closer to each other. That way you don't get polkadots.

Also, once you use focused optics you can ignore the light loss caused by the air between the fixture and the water. There is essentially no loss in the area because the light rays have been forced into a parallel orientation.
This is 100% correct. 40 Degree optics do focus the light more so you will get increased PAR, but it is definitely at the cost of spread. I think Santoki's setup uses three 24 bulb emitters with 40 degree optics, but he has them mounted up on his ceiling, over four feet from the surface of the water. He still gets great coverage and good coral growth, that is probably the way to go with LEDs if you have an open top tank because then you can really fine tune the output to not waste any light lighting the glass.

I know that parallel light, like the light from our sun or distant stars, has some different properties with stuff like lenses, but can you explain why putting tight optics on our LEDs makes them lose less PAR in the air? It makes sense because our sun doesn't lose much intensity over huge distances, but conceptually optics was one of my least favorite parts of physics.

How about 50/50 mix of 40 and 60 degree lens. 40 degree for the inner string of LEDs or just for white and 60 degree or even exrta wide lens for outer string of LEDs or just for the royal blues!!! This may help to overcome any issues with light spread, just a thought!!
I tried something like this, one thing you might have to worry about (it can be a good thing!) is that putting different optics on only one color of bulb changes the perceived appearance of the overall color. For instance, 40 degree optics on the whites and 60's on the blues makes the light look more white.

In my situation, since I can only mount the emitters a foot above my tank I think I will use 60 degree optics on the inside bulbs and 80 degree optics on the outside bulbs to help with my coverage.

Taqpol

05/04/2010, 10:17 PM

This thread has been nominated for May's thread of the Month. You can vote here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843660):thumbsup:.
WOW! I never saw this coming. I'm sure it is due to the number of knowledgeable LED "gurus" this thread seems to have picked up. You guys rock!

The other two threads are amazing and as of now it seems to be a pretty close race. Everyone should vote!

kcress

05/05/2010, 04:58 AM

I know that parallel light, like the light from our sun or distant stars, has some different properties with stuff like lenses, but can you explain why putting tight optics on our LEDs makes them lose less PAR in the air?

The dread Inverse Square Law makes you pay heavily for distance if the light source is a point source radiating in all directions. Each ray of light is diverging rapidly from its neighbors. So if you envision a bazillion straws all sticking out of a watermelon you can see that as the straws project away their ends get farther from the ends of all the neighboring straws.

But when you change the system so all the straws are sticking out of the box of straws, they all lie next to each other. It doesn't matter from one end of the straws to the other. All the straw ends remain next to each other. The Inverse Square Law gets a wooden stake driven thru it.

Same goes for light rays once they have been focused. Since we haven't actually made them perfectly parallel like a laser beam there will still be some spreading. There will be less spreading the smaller the angle of the optics. That's what allowed Widmer to hang his fixture at the ceiling. As long as all the light is still pretty much falling within your tank it doesn't matter how far your fixture is above the tank, you're just not going to lose much.

der_wille_zur_macht

05/05/2010, 05:29 AM

To extend kcress's straw analogy, imagine you've got 20 straws stuck to a golf ball. They will be at relatively large angles to each other. This emulates an MH lamp. "Point source." Big angles. Intensity drops off quickly.

Now, stick 20 straws right next to each other on a small patch on one side of a basketball. The angles between the straws will be less. This is a bare LED. Lower angles, intensity drops off less quickly.

Now, stick 20 straws next to each other on a really small patch on one of those big inflatable exercise balls. The angles between them will be even smaller, so even less light lost over distance. This is an LED with an optic on it. Least light "lost" over distance, but also least amount of spread. The angle of the optic basically translates to the diameter of the ball.

To expand on kcress's other point, look back a page or two where FishMan noticed that the PAR near that coral at the font of the tank DROPPED when the switch from 60 to 40 degree optics happened. Intensity increased, but spread decreased. This is why I (also) don't like the analogies between optic angle and wattage of MH - because it COMPLETELY ignores spread, which is important to consider. So, as I've said elsewhere, choose your total number of LEDs and drive current to get the intensity you want/need. THEN, choose optics based on mounting height, spread, and depth requirements.

kentrob11

05/05/2010, 12:35 PM

Well said :-)

SnowManSnow

05/05/2010, 09:35 PM

wolf pup

05/06/2010, 05:46 AM

Great thread and illuminating to follow.

Sooo :) does anyone want to come up with a table placing led spacing, distance from top of water, depth of water, and optics together with some objective and subjective results ("appearance" and PAR)? I think that there are more than a few of us that would hop on board if we had the ability to look at the big picture. I'll be honest, this is really the point I want to begin with in design since I'm going to go for units inside an enclosed canopy and probably should start with how tall it will be.

dainiusiva

05/06/2010, 06:11 AM

der_wille_zur_macht

05/06/2010, 06:51 AM

Hang tight for another month or two folks, there will be some LED articles in RK mag with that sort of info. Keep in mind that we are still, clearly, very early in this development process, and any "rules of thumb" or charts should be taken with lots of grains of salt. :)

TheFishMan65

05/06/2010, 06:53 AM

I think we all would. Here is what I think from what I have read and my own limited experience, but I am sure someone will debate with me.

Spacing
Spacing of 2 inches by 3 inches seems to be very common. And give good par in the middle. If you want par all the way around then the only choice (my opinion) is to add more rows and columns. Yes you can use lenses to penetrate deeper, but you sacrifice the edges. So in summary I think ideally you want 2x3 even spacing all the way to the edges. Then if you can tip the edges to keep the light off the glass. This will dim the sides some, but hopefully not too much. Tip each row/column to hit just at edge of the sand bed, 3 inches up, wherever you want corals :). Tipping is hard with a single heat sink so you may just have to accept low light at the edge or lots of light on the glass.

I think I remember reading that there was a recommendation of 1 LED for every 10 to 20 square inches. The above spacing would give 1 for every six inches. taqpol used 1.75 by 2. Lots of light in the middle (especially with lenses), but I little dark for what I think I want on the edges. So I will try and adjust my plans based what I have learned for taqpol.

Lenses
Yes as mentioned above lenses can be use to increase PAR, but at the sacrifice of the edges. I think lenses should be reserved for controlling height (keeping the light in the tank as the fixture rises). Here are my opinions on height. NOTE: I held a single white XR-E (no lens) near the surface and had no shimmer I had to move it about 4-6 inches (IIRC) away before I got shimmer. So there is a minimum distance if you want shimmer (I do). Also personally I would always use at least 80 degree lenses.
80 degree - 4 to 20
60 degree - 20 to 36
8 degree - 36 - 48

Well let's start debating!

der_wille_zur_macht

05/06/2010, 07:16 AM

I think I remember reading that there was a recommendation of 1 LED for every 10 to 20 square inches. The above spacing would give 1 for every six inches. taqpol used 1.75 by 2. Lots of light in the middle (especially with lenses), but I little dark for what I think I want on the edges. So I will try and adjust my plans based what I have learned for taqpol.

In the past, I was suggesting people end up with between 10 - 20 square inches of tank surface area per LED. That's where the vast majority of "successful" medium-sized LED rigs have ended up, depending on drive current, livestock requirements, height, optics, LED model and bin, etc.

So, for instance, if you have a 120g tank, it has 48*24 = 1152 square inches of surface, so you might want 60 - 110 LEDs.

Lenses
Yes as mentioned above lenses can be use to increase PAR, but at the sacrifice of the edges. I think lenses should be reserved for controlling height (keeping the light in the tank as the fixture rises). Here are my opinions on height. NOTE: I held a single white XR-E (no lens) near the surface and had no shimmer I had to move it about 4-6 inches (IIRC) away before I got shimmer. So there is a minimum distance if you want shimmer (I do). Also personally I would always use at least 80 degree lenses.
80 degree - 4 to 20
60 degree - 20 to 36
8 degree - 36 - 48

Well let's start debating!

Those rough guidelines are probably about right. It's hard to give really specific suggestions because of all the variables, and not every type of LED has every width of optic available (i.e. there really aren't any 60 degree optics for XP-G that I'm aware of). I might cut your ranges a little as follows, for "average" depth tanks (say, 18").

80 degree: anything up to a foot
60 degree: 18"
40 degree: 24"
20 degree: 36"
anything smaller: on the ceiling!

As noted above though, concentrating the light with optics has other inherent effects besides the obvious one of increasing intensity and reducing spread. The spacing between your LEDs becomes a little more important as your optics get narrower, both from a coverage perspective and a "color separation" perspective. When you have wide optics or no optics, it doesn't matter that you are alternating blue and white LEDs every few inches (typically) because by the time the light hits the tank, it's "mixed" together well. With really tight optics, you can get an effect where shadows look blue on one side, and yellow on the other side - this is because the different colors of light are so laminar that they don't "mix" evenly.

And, of course, you can get the typically undesirable "shafts of light" effect if you use tight optics and big spacing between your LEDs. So, typically, as your optics get narrower, you are forced into a closer LED spacing to compensate for these effects, which COMPOUNDS the typical issues of using tight optics (less light spread and more intensity directly under the LEDs.) Effectively, if you want or need to use tight optics on a larger tank, you are FORCING yourself into a very high output light fixture, because you'll have to increase your LED count (decrease spacing) to get good coverage. The alternative if you really want a lower-output fixture is to use lower drive currents along with the closer spacing and tighter optics.

One final thought on optics that isn't brought up often. As stated above, tighter optics result in more laminar light. As you change from wider to tighter optics, your light behaves less like an MH and more like a laser. As this happens, we start to get some effects that may be considered desirable, but it's very possible for them to become overwhelming with very tight optics. Namely, shimmer and "contrast" in the sense of shadows becoming very, very well defined.

Shimmer is pretty much a "good" thing to most reefers, and you can control/influence it easily by changing the amount of turbulence on the surface of your tank. So it's a non-issue.

Level of contrast in the shadows might be considered a good thing, up to a point. As your optics get tighter, there is less "sideways" light in the tank, which means that corals/rock located in a shadow will get less and less light. Up to a point, IMHO, this can be very desirable - the sharply defined, dark shadows can look really cool. BUT, for people with lots of corals, it can be undesirable if taken TOO far, because lower branches on big colonies will be receiving very little light, which might cause growth problems or die-back for the coral. This can be somewhat avoided by letting your corals grow up in the LED-lit tank, and/or creative effects with LEDs.

Which brings me to my last thought for this post (I promise!). The above "dark shadow" issue could be easily thwarted if a few LEDs were angled with respect to the tank, instead of all of them pointing straight down. To date, 99% of LED builds have been BORING! :lol: The typical approach is to get a big heatsink and spread X number of LEDs evenly across it, then hang it above the tank. This gives a final result very similar to what you'd get with T5 and MH. A perfectly even and vertical distribution of light from edge to edge across the tank. LEDs let us BREAK FREE from that mold if we so desire! You can't bend a T5 lamp to get "angled" light at one end of the tank and vertical light at the other end. BUT that is easy to do with LEDs! Us reef folk seem happy to have actinic lights coming on before white lights as "sunrise" simulation. Imagine a tank where the "sunrise" actually involved a narrow shaft of light piercing the tank in a nearly horizontal fashion. The possibilities are endless! We can position individual LEDs, or small banks of LEDs, at different heights, angles, and positions to get some really cool effects. Time to think outside the box!

chark

05/06/2010, 07:46 AM

[QUOTE=der_wille_zur_macht;17061951 LEDs let us BREAK FREE from that mold if we so desire!![/QUOTE]

Preach on brother! Help us see the possibilities and beauty of LED lights.

der_wille_zur_macht

05/06/2010, 08:06 AM

TheFishMan65

05/06/2010, 08:27 AM

Thanks for stating things more clearly. By the way I thought we were already thinking outside the box! My LEDs will be outside my tank - ok bad joke.

Taqpol

05/06/2010, 01:47 PM

In the past, I was suggesting people end up with between 10 - 20 square inches of tank surface area per LED. That's where the vast majority of "successful" medium-sized LED rigs have ended up, depending on drive current, livestock requirements, height, optics, LED model and bin, etc.

So, for instance, if you have a 120g tank, it has 48*24 = 1152 square inches of surface, so you might want 60 - 110 LEDs.

Those rough guidelines are probably about right. It's hard to give really specific suggestions because of all the variables, and not every type of LED has every width of optic available (i.e. there really aren't any 60 degree optics for XP-G that I'm aware of). I might cut your ranges a little as follows, for "average" depth tanks (say, 18").

80 degree: anything up to a foot
60 degree: 18"
40 degree: 24"
20 degree: 36"
anything smaller: on the ceiling!

As noted above though, concentrating the light with optics has other inherent effects besides the obvious one of increasing intensity and reducing spread. The spacing between your LEDs becomes a little more important as your optics get narrower, both from a coverage perspective and a "color separation" perspective. When you have wide optics or no optics, it doesn't matter that you are alternating blue and white LEDs every few inches (typically) because by the time the light hits the tank, it's "mixed" together well. With really tight optics, you can get an effect where shadows look blue on one side, and yellow on the other side - this is because the different colors of light are so laminar that they don't "mix" evenly.

And, of course, you can get the typically undesirable "shafts of light" effect if you use tight optics and big spacing between your LEDs. So, typically, as your optics get narrower, you are forced into a closer LED spacing to compensate for these effects, which COMPOUNDS the typical issues of using tight optics (less light spread and more intensity directly under the LEDs.) Effectively, if you want or need to use tight optics on a larger tank, you are FORCING yourself into a very high output light fixture, because you'll have to increase your LED count (decrease spacing) to get good coverage. The alternative if you really want a lower-output fixture is to use lower drive currents along with the closer spacing and tighter optics.

One final thought on optics that isn't brought up often. As stated above, tighter optics result in more laminar light. As you change from wider to tighter optics, your light behaves less like an MH and more like a laser. As this happens, we start to get some effects that may be considered desirable, but it's very possible for them to become overwhelming with very tight optics. Namely, shimmer and "contrast" in the sense of shadows becoming very, very well defined.

Shimmer is pretty much a "good" thing to most reefers, and you can control/influence it easily by changing the amount of turbulence on the surface of your tank. So it's a non-issue.

Level of contrast in the shadows might be considered a good thing, up to a point. As your optics get tighter, there is less "sideways" light in the tank, which means that corals/rock located in a shadow will get less and less light. Up to a point, IMHO, this can be very desirable - the sharply defined, dark shadows can look really cool. BUT, for people with lots of corals, it can be undesirable if taken TOO far, because lower branches on big colonies will be receiving very little light, which might cause growth problems or die-back for the coral. This can be somewhat avoided by letting your corals grow up in the LED-lit tank, and/or creative effects with LEDs.

Which brings me to my last thought for this post (I promise!). The above "dark shadow" issue could be easily thwarted if a few LEDs were angled with respect to the tank, instead of all of them pointing straight down. To date, 99% of LED builds have been BORING! :lol: The typical approach is to get a big heatsink and spread X number of LEDs evenly across it, then hang it above the tank. This gives a final result very similar to what you'd get with T5 and MH. A perfectly even and vertical distribution of light from edge to edge across the tank. LEDs let us BREAK FREE from that mold if we so desire! You can't bend a T5 lamp to get "angled" light at one end of the tank and vertical light at the other end. BUT that is easy to do with LEDs! Us reef folk seem happy to have actinic lights coming on before white lights as "sunrise" simulation. Imagine a tank where the "sunrise" actually involved a narrow shaft of light piercing the tank in a nearly horizontal fashion. The possibilities are endless! We can position individual LEDs, or small banks of LEDs, at different heights, angles, and positions to get some really cool effects. Time to think outside the box!

Quoting this entire post for Page 8 because it is awesome!

I agree 100% with everything said here. With the spacing I have between LEDs, and 60 degree optics, and mounted a little over 12" from the water, I see no different colored beams of light going through the water but I can see patches of colored light on the sand bed directly under a bulb if I look close enough. You have to look close to see it as it is not very definied, just some areas have more blue and some areas have more yellow, but it only shows up real well if you have sand exposed at the edge of the glass where you see the color of light shine "through" the sand.

According to the rule of thumb that DWZM and FishMan came up with (That I would agree with as well), since I will be mounting my lights less then 18" from the surface of the water I should go with 80 degree optics. I want more PAR then that so I am going to customize my set of fixtures around that. The BEST part about LEDs is how you can customize them to get the exact type of light you want! I have a 72"x30" (2160 square inches) footprint tank. All of my high light corals will be on two islands off to the sides in 24"x30" (720 square inches) footprints. Over these two high light ends of my tank I will have 48 LEDs, or one LED for every 15 square inches, or right in the range. For better penetration each fixture of 24 bulbs will have 14 60 degree optics in the center and edge facing eachother, and 10 80 degree optics on the outside edge. I will only have one fixture of 24 bulbs in the center 24"x30" area of the tank, but that area will just be sand with some clams on the sand bed. This fixture will have no optics on but still be mounted 12" above the water for maximum coverage, but I will pop on a set of 4 40 degree optics to really penetrate directly over where the clams will be.

Also, as DWZM pointed out, I am going to try and mount each individual fixture (all five of them) to some sort of system that allows me to swivel them in multiple directions. I see this being very useful on my two end fixtures, as I will angle them into the tank so that they are not lighting as much glass and giving some amount of sideways light to my corals as they grow bigger and bigger.

Taqpol

05/06/2010, 01:49 PM

Also, don't know if you guys have been following along, but the ThOTM poll is EXTREMELY close! I thought the Aquascaping thread would win (I do love me a good aquascape) but its actually the 19,000 gallon build thread we are neck and neck with.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843660

CJO

05/06/2010, 02:20 PM

Just voted.. good luck!

CJ

Obi-dad

05/07/2010, 02:54 PM

Taqpol

05/07/2010, 05:04 PM

I voted for this thread - but the best LED threads to me recently have been the DIY driver thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1759758), and the Must Haves for Controller thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783536). If you liked this thread, check out those.
Agreed, those are both amazing threads! After finishing the DIY driver thread I will eventually be making those myself as the Meanwell idea won't work for my large setup.

Only three votes behind, can we get enough by this Sunday?

Obi-dad

05/07/2010, 08:09 PM

Can I get an AMEN? :lol:

I've said this a million times, but people should experiment. Do what Taqpol's doing. Build test fixtures and try different things out. Doing that has really changed my perspective on this subject and has absolutely influenced my plans for my current build.

AMEN!!!

I agree with trying different approaches to take advantage of the differences in lighting technologies.

My tank is over 6 years old, and many of the corals have grown up tall towards the current MH lights, so that the tops are illuminated, but the front (viewing side) is not well illuminated - and the main raison d'être of the corals for me is my viewing pleasure, so I want more light on the front sides of the corals. Can't do that easily with a pair of MH bulbs and T5 supplemental lighting.

To do this, I am making upside down U channels 4 feet long with acrylic on the underside to make a square tube, with a fan blowing in the end (and temp probe to shut off the LEDs if the temp raises because the fan has stopped). The LEDs are inside the U channel on small heatsinks like terahz used.

The main advantage of this instead of using the typical massive heatsink build is that I am not pointing these straight down, I am placing more of them in the front of the tank pointing them toward the back, in hopes that the front sides of the corals are better illuminated.

Taqpol

05/09/2010, 01:21 PM

Last day to VOTE! (http://http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843660)

This thread was leading all of Friday night and most of Saturday morning, but now we're getting trounced. I don't know if its recoverable at this point.

yuzaki

05/09/2010, 06:08 PM

Just want some suggestions.

I am planning to make lighting for 6 feet X 2 feet X 2 feet tank. It will be a sps dominated tank.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4592054212_0d11d0dcdf.jpg

I still dont have plans for optics but will probably go with 60 degree. i plan to put it 12 inches to 14 inches above water level. will having 60 degree optics create spot lighting effect?

kcress

05/09/2010, 06:43 PM

Probably not - with that layout.
Looks fine.

Taqpol

05/09/2010, 07:27 PM

Yuzaki, I was about to comment on your post over on Santoki's thread, but its good to see you posted here as we have very similar setups. For my tank I will be lighting a 24"x30" section with 48 bulbs as well. On my setup I will have two fixtures of 24 bulbs that are in 4x6 rows. This ends up being more alot more squat, which I was thinking would bring all the lights closer together for better mixing and more of a MH point source of lighting. I am sure you're setup would work as well as being better for cooling and coverage then my own, but without personal experience I don't know what kind of spotlighting you will get with 60 degree optics. The good news is all you have to do is raise the fixture higher, if you can, and then the spotlights should go away!

yuzaki

05/09/2010, 10:10 PM

Thanks for the reply Taqpol, ill try with 60 degree optics to give me more par at the bottom. hopefully this will work.

What plug (driver to outlet) or connector you using for your setup?

The Pet Factory

05/10/2010, 01:38 AM

First off I want to say thank you for posting this thread and providing all of the information you have posted so far.
So I have a quick question for you. Do you have the 110V power going into the ACL and ACN lines on the drivers from a wall outlet and also have the 0-10V power supply going into the dim end?
Or are you only supplying power into the Dim lines and not into the AC inputs?
It seems to me that you would need to have the ACN and ACL powered and then the 0-10V power is also needed to control the dimming but you can't run the LED's on just the 0-10V power supply right? So I would need 2 plugs to run each driver?
Also if I wanted to have them hooked up to a timer to turn the lights on and off on their own would I need both of the plugs to turn off with the timer or can I just turn off the power supply to the timer or just the power supply to the AC input on the driver?
Thanks again. Chad.

kcress

05/10/2010, 02:06 AM

Welcome to RC Pet.

You would typically run your 10Vdc supply from the same power source that you're drawing your 120Vac from. So hooking them both to the same timer circuit would be good.

Just so we're clear - That means a wall wart or something similar to drop the voltage down to 10V and convert it to DC.

hllywd

05/12/2010, 01:56 PM

To date, 99% of LED builds have been BORING! :lol:

Well, we'll see soon how you like the speaker mount idea I mentioned a month or so ago. I'm a few days away from having two of my 4 arrays assembled. Had first light from the first one last week and posted a pic in the big thread, then was out of town for a couple days. I'll post some pics soon.:thumbsup:

Tim

cmbspd

05/19/2010, 07:52 AM

This ties in with one of your other suggestions, but another alternative would be to stop using ELN-60-48's an use another meanwell driver, where the waste isn't implied in series strings. It seems habit on these forums that when someone says "meanwell" the ELN-60-48 is implied. They make a bunch of other LED drivers though: i.e. PLC series if you don't care about dimming, or one of the many other dimmable drivers they produce. The PLN series is adjustable, and even has PFC! In fact, the ELN series is practically the only LED driver they make WITHOUT PFC. Ironic that it's become the standard choice in these builds.

DWZM Is the PLC-45-58 the closest analog to an LPC that could drive both the XRE and XPG? I'm looking for the easiest substitute for the drivers in the rapidled.com package that includes PFC because I'll have more than 8 drivers total in the house. I can easily follow the thread's excellent instructions to build a light but don't understand enough to safely choose alternatives. Thanks for your input.

der_wille_zur_macht

05/19/2010, 08:04 AM

cmbspd

05/19/2010, 08:10 AM

The PLC-45-58 is a 48v supply, so it'll run ~12 - 13 LEDs in series - any of the LEDs we commonly use will be fine. It has PFC. It has a max current of .95A which is just about right. It looks like the current is manually adjustable (i.e. via trimpot on the device) but there is no external dimming circuit, so you can't "control" it with a microcontroller or reef controller. Though you could probably hack the current adjust pot, that wouldn't be for the faint of heart.

Awesome, sounds like exactly what I want because I don't have a controller so I'll just use multiple power cords and old fashioned timers to control different strings. .95A is a little high for the XRE royal blues so I assume that I should follow your instructions to adjust the internal trimpot to something closer to .7A for any strings of blue LEDs but leave it for the XPGs?

Could you please tell me why 48V runs 12-13 LEDs? I've been looking for that information, but can't find it.

Big thanks to you, Taqpol, Kcress and the others for helping everyone out so much.

wesley6610

05/19/2010, 08:51 AM

I believe that each LED maxes at 3.7 V and so the drivers max at 48V, simple division gives you like 12.997.......

Taqpol

05/19/2010, 09:18 AM

Well, we'll see soon how you like the speaker mount idea I mentioned a month or so ago. I'm a few days away from having two of my 4 arrays assembled. Had first light from the first one last week and posted a pic in the big thread, then was out of town for a couple days. I'll post some pics soon.:thumbsup:

Tim

Could you post some pictures here when you're done, as well? I think the idea of putting the fixtures on speaker mounts sounds very intriguing!

der_wille_zur_macht

05/19/2010, 09:22 AM

I believe that each LED maxes at 3.7 V and so the drivers max at 48V, simple division gives you like 12.997.......

Yep, that's more or less correct. In the datasheet for each respective LED, there's a V/I curve that lets you look up the voltage the LED will drop at a specific current. With this information in hand, you can calculate the voltage expected across a certain number of LEDs in series.

The numbers do vary a bit from model to model and even color to color, so it's important to look up the actual figure if you're interested in doing the math. And of course, clearly, it varies as the current varies.

Plus, there is a fair amount of variation from LED to LED, around the number quoted in the datasheet. So, LED XYZ might be quoted at 3.5v at your desired current, but you might find some that drop 3.55 or 3.48 or whatever. So, it's important to leave a margin of safety when planning how many LEDs can be run on a given driver.

In most cases, with the 48v meanwell drivers, you can just assume 12 LEDs and be safe. But if you're using some of the lower-drop LEDs (i.e. the XP-G or Rebels) and lower currents, and you want to really load things up, you might be able to get away with 13 or even 14 per string.

CJO

05/19/2010, 09:42 AM

Could you please tell me why 48V runs 12-13 LEDs? I've been looking for that information, but can't find it.

Finally, my research is coming in handy! The number of LED's you can run is based on their forward voltage. The XR-E's have a forward voltage of 3.6V at 1A. If you divide 48V by the 3.6V average forward voltage, you come out with 13.333 LEDs. Since you can't divide one up and to be a little conservative, you round down to 13 LEDs.

CJ

CJO

05/19/2010, 09:43 AM

Guess I shouldn't wait so long to post! :)

CJ

der_wille_zur_macht

05/19/2010, 09:51 AM

All good info though! IMHO rounding down can't be over-emphasized. If you cook the books, it looks like you can get away with 14 or even 15 of some LEDs on a 48v driver if you stick with a low current. But what happens if, one day, you want to turn the current up? You've now pegged the driver. Or, if you get a batch of higher-voltage LEDs? Same story.

hllywd

05/19/2010, 10:59 AM

Could you post some pictures here when you're done, as well? I think the idea of putting the fixtures on speaker mounts sounds very intriguing!

I'm going to try to finish the second array today then go ahead and mount the two I have finished... play with them a little bit while I finish the second two. I think that may help a little with the intensity and acclimation process as well since the one I have completed casts shadows over my current 250W MHs and PCs. This is what I have so far and I'll add to it as I go:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1850522

HippieSmell

05/31/2010, 09:05 PM

Lastly, this is my multimeter and while I am somewhat electronics illiterate I'm pretty sure it only goes up to 200 mA max:

This is a great project! I wanted to post this quote because I think it's pretty funny considering what you're doing.

Taqpol

07/28/2010, 10:51 PM

I'm gonna go ahead and drag this thread up from the graveyard because of some new developments in my LED quest.

I have decided to go with the DIY CAT4101 driver designed by Der Wille Zur Macht in the LED driver thread for my large tank setup. This allows me to have a more cost efficient driver for the larger setup, as well as the ability to use only two 24v high amperage power supplies that have PFC protection built in. No more worries about my house burning down with too many Meanwell drivers.

I am only using 2/3 of the board capabilities, but that is because I wanted to stick to my original plan and control 12 LEDs a channel with PWM. Heres the actual board, only ten parts in my application!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1225.jpg

This setup is will run five boards (sixty LEDs) and is powered by this bad boy:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1227.jpg

Arduino Mega clone. Currently this is providing a 5v source to the CAT4101's required 5v in as well as the 5v PWM. Once I figure out how to program it it will provide 5v to the 5v in pins of all ten boards as well as controlling ten channels of PWM.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1226.jpg

And I have light! This is two strings of six XR-E Royal Blues. When I turn down the power supply so that it is only dropping ~0.8v more then the LED strings themselves the CAT4101's barely get warm to the touch!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1223.jpg

Tested all ten of my boards with the old LED setup.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1228.jpg

I turned the extra board Seeed Studio sent me into a spare with all three channels populated.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1231.jpg

Arriving sometime tomorrow should be my five 8.4"x10" heatsinks from www.heatsinkusa.com . This time I am actually going to screw the LEDs down, but only because my father's company owns a CNC machine and he offered to have the heatsinks drilled and tapped for me. If anyone is interested in the CNC files or perhaps getting your own heatsinks tapped go ahead and send me a PM.

I also have all the LEDs I need to light the big tank (120 LEDs, 60 XR-E CW, 60 XR-E RB), but I have decided to incorporate 10 CREE XR-E Neutral Whites into the setup. These will be run two per each fixture, without optics, for more even spread and to try and add some more red light into the spectrum without driving the overall color temperature down too far.

sammy113

07/28/2010, 11:13 PM

kcress

07/28/2010, 11:18 PM

Looks good! Thanks for the picture effort too.

Taqpol

07/29/2010, 08:51 PM

Very nice Alex. Those designs by DWZM are amazing. I'm using his ELN dimming shield for ELN "P" Can't wait to see the huge build you have planned. I'm also considering swapping at least 2 or 4 CW from my lamp for neutral whites. BTW, where did you got them?

I haven't actually ordered them yet, but if I can't work out something directly with CREE (they're practically my next door neighbors) I will end up ordering them from Cutter.

Taqpol

07/29/2010, 08:52 PM

Padrino

07/30/2010, 09:37 PM

I was directed to this thread today:

Arduino Sketches (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1831741&page=1)

It should come in really handy when I get to programming my Seeeduino for controlling all these lights.

wow i really need to learn more about the electronics end of it. This is awesome alex! Where did you learn about programming arduino? What is that?

Taqpol

08/09/2010, 02:13 PM

Good news! My neutral white LEDs showed up mounted to 20mm starboards exactly a week after I ordered them from Cutter! A one week turn around time sounds extremely good for shipping all the way from Australia!

Taqpol

08/18/2010, 10:51 PM

A few big posts coming up, but first a picture diary of why it has taken me so long on this build....

Back when it was suggested on this very thread I ordered two Meanwell SP-320-24's to use as power supplies for my DIY LED drivers. One of them worked perfectly, but the second one had the voltage trim pot glued down at max voltage. This is a problem as whatever excess voltage I have dropping across the CAT4101 drivers will be turned into excess heat, potentially damaging the circuit. I ordered new trim pots thanks to TheFishMan finding the part number for me and went to install it on the defunct power supply. You really have to take a lot of screws off those power supplies to get to the bottom of the circuit boards, but I finally got it exposed and the trim pot replaced no problem. Unfortunately, as I was screwing everything back together I accidentally screwed through a thermal sensor that was wedged into a heatsink mounted to the frame:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1287.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1281.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1282.jpg

The part number is a Seki ST-22 type W (http://www.sekicon.com/eng/product/st-22.html) but I can not find a single one of these for sale at any of the normal US distributors. If someone can find one I can fix and then sell them an SP-320-24 extremely cheap.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1286.jpg

I ended up buying a new power supply from Jameco (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&pa=244752&productId=244752&keyCode=WSF&CID=GMC) but it still burns me because the price of these power supplies from the Ebay seller was to kill for.

Taqpol

08/18/2010, 11:14 PM

The good news is, my lighting fixture for the main tank is almost done!

I still have a little more work to do and some testing, but I hope to get it hung over the tank tomorrow. (Sorry for the mess in these pictures...)

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1320.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1337.jpg

The frame is made entirely out of 2x4's and 2x6's joined together with glue and pocket hole screws. The part on the back is going to screw directly into the five wall studs behind and twelve inches above the tank. The piano hinges allow me to flip the front part up and against the wall in case I really need to get into the tank to do some maintenance. The great part about this design is when I finally get around to building a canopy for my tank (more like the shell of a canopy) it will slide onto the tank and over the light fixture, completely covering it from view.

All five heatsinks are mounted to universal omni-directional speaker mounts I found at a local radio shack. This will allow me to rotate or angle the LED fixtures independently and at any angle I choose, so that I can really play with the directionality of light given to us by LEDs. I know for a fact I will be angling the two exterior fixtures towards the center of the tank to maximize their coverage.

Coincidentally, two 2x6's plus the length of the speaker mount was the exact distance from my wall that i needed to center the fixtures over the tank.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1336.jpg

2" stainless steel machine screws coupled with nylon locking nuts inserted through holes drilled in the fins hold the fixtures to the speaker mounts. I did all these holes freehand (no drill press...) so please excuse the catty wompus screw in this picture. The other fixtures are much better.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1335.jpg

Meanwell SP-320-24 with built in PFC protection.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1327.jpg

Hole drilled though the back 2x6 so that the power supply power cords can drop straight through to the dedicated 20A circuit underneath my main tank.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1325.jpg

Barrier strips allow me to connect the multiple 24v supplies and Grounds from all ten drivers to a single wire going back to the power supply. I have two strips, one for the blues and one for the whites, divided evenly between 24v from the two different power supplies and the grounds for the individual power supplies.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1329.jpg

DIY drivers were located on the mobile 2x6 directly in front of their respective LED fixtures.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1324.jpg

Since I was lucky enough to have access to my father's CNC machine for pre drilling and tapping, I used Arctic Silver thermal paste and screws instead of thermal epoxy this time around. Those are #4-40 stainless steel 1/4" screws with a hex top and nylon washers holding the stars to the pre polished heatsinks.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1323.jpg

A finished fixture.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1321.jpg

Taqpol

08/18/2010, 11:25 PM

The 5v source for the CAT4101 driver as well as all ten 5v PWM signals are controlled by a Seeeduino Mega.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1331.jpg

For simplicities sake I am only going to control the blues and the whites individually for awhile, but the overarching goal is to control all ten channels sperately and have a sunrise/sunset the proceedes east to west across my tank. Here is the wiring harness i constructed using a 12 pin molex connector to keep all the various PWM cables straight.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1333.jpg

Previously i just used the 5v out on the Arduino plugged into the 5v and PWM ports to do all my testing, but now i had to actually figure out how to program the Arduino and use the PWM signals. Good thing the programming of this beast is extremely well documented.

Here is the code I uploaded to the Arduino that is a simple "All lights on full blast":
int led1Pin = 2;
int led2Pin = 3;
int led3Pin = 4;
int led4Pin = 5;
int led5Pin = 6;
int led6Pin = 8;
int led7Pin = 9;
int led8Pin = 10;
int led9Pin = 11;
int led10Pin = 12;

void setup(){}
void loop(){
analogWrite(led1Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led2Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led3Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led4Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led5Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led6Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led7Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led8Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led9Pin, 255);
analogWrite(led10Pin, 255);
}

And voila!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1340.jpg

Can you see the single Neutral White in this set of twelve LEDs? Probably not with this point and shoot camera, but once I get my SLR back I'll try and take a few more true color picture comparisons for everyone.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1338.jpg

Now all I need to do is finish wiring the last four fixtures, mount this beast to my wall, and hope everything still works!

sammy113

08/18/2010, 11:35 PM

Looking good Alex! Love the speaker mounts idea. What about fans? are you gonna use them? Are you going to install a shield or something to protect the LEDs from water, salt creep and stuff?

Taqpol

08/18/2010, 11:41 PM

There are a few things I'm worried about that I would like to get answered before I move this beat onto the wall permanently. I might have trouble explaining some of this.

My Arduino is powered by a standard 12v wall wart. The board itself will be supplying the necessary 5v inputs as well as the 5v PWM signal to ten DIY driver boards. I think I remeber that the two requirements I listed a very low current so I should be ok, but I would feel a lot better if someone familiar with both Arduinos and the DIY driver (DWZM, maybe?) would chime in and let me know if I should be under the Arduino's current rating.

Also, I ran out of my 20 gauge wire and most of the connections have been made with 24 gauge wire. I know thats ok for the connections between LEDs, but is it still ok for the "main" wires going from the power supplies to the barrier strips that could be carrying up to 24v @ 7-8 amps? The actual run to the barrier strip is pretty short, but some of the runs from the barrier strips to the LED drivers on the far ends can be over three feet.

Lastly, on both my individual barrier strips all my ground wires come in from a specific color driver, and then two wires come out, one to the ground of that color's power supply and one to the ground of the Arduino (for the 5v in and the PWM). The problem is, both isolated grounds are actually not isolated because they both connect to the same ground on the Arduino. Is this going to be a problem?

Taqpol

08/18/2010, 11:49 PM

Looking good Alex! Love the speaker mounts idea. What about fans? are you gonna use them? Are you going to install a shield or something to protect the LEDs from water, salt creep and stuff?

I've put a lot of thought into fans, and I think I'm going to try and go the passive cooling route this time around. People have been having such success with aluminum U brackets, a heatsink like this must just be overkill. I do have a ceiling fan thats on almost 24/7 directly above the fish tank, so thats probably all I need to get the minimum airflow for the heatsink fins to really do their job. If it doesn't work out I will probably add fans to the canopy or the 2x6 frame first and have air blowing across the fins rather then directly down into the heatsink.

I will be installing an acrylic splash shield to each fixture after I figure out the exact combination of optics i want to use. I plan on just using a thin acrylic sheet from Home Depot and securing it straight to the heatsink bottom with stainless steel self tapping screws. It doesn't have to be too pretty as I will hopefully be covering it with a canopy in the not too distant future.

sammy113

08/18/2010, 11:51 PM

Nice, keep it up! Can't wait to see it over your tank :D

kcress

08/19/2010, 12:41 AM

Looking pretty good!

Can't answer the Arduinos question.

What I noticed: Did you solder the CATs to the board at their large tab end? It's absolutely required... Can't tell from the picture but it looks like you haven't.

24AWG for 7+ Amps? NEGATORY. Way too small. The 20 would work but not the 24..

There are a few things I'm worried about that I would like to get answered before I move this beat onto the wall permanently.

Lastly, on both my individual barrier strips all my ground wires come in from a specific color driver, and then two wires come out, one to the ground of that color's power supply and one to the ground of the Arduino (for the 5v in and the PWM). The problem is, both isolated grounds are actually not isolated because they both connect to the same ground on the Arduino. Is this going to be a problem?

Umm... I am not following this. I can picture multiple schemes out of this English description. Some would be a problem. Can you draw it? Even a picture on a napkin would help.

wesley6610

08/19/2010, 06:27 AM

Excellent work and a great amount of information in this thread, thanks!

sammy113

08/19/2010, 06:27 AM

My Arduino is powered by a standard 12v wall wart. The board itself will be supplying the necessary 5v inputs as well as the 5v PWM signal to ten DIY driver boards. I think I remeber that the two requirements I listed a very low current so I should be ok, but I would feel a lot better if someone familiar with both Arduinos and the DIY driver (DWZM, maybe?) would chime in and let me know if I should be under the Arduino's current rating.

I run a 12V 800mA wall wart for my Arduino. The board from DWZM takes care of supplying the necessary 5V for the board and increase the output to 10v for the meanwells. I haven't got any problems so far with that. I was told if I use a lower voltage wart then I won't get 10v out as max cause there is some little loss in the whole process.

der_wille_zur_macht

08/19/2010, 06:51 AM

My Arduino is powered by a standard 12v wall wart. The board itself will be supplying the necessary 5v inputs as well as the 5v PWM signal to ten DIY driver boards. I think I remeber that the two requirements I listed a very low current so I should be ok, but I would feel a lot better if someone familiar with both Arduinos and the DIY driver (DWZM, maybe?) would chime in and let me know if I should be under the Arduino's current rating.

You should be just fine. You're running a fairly low current and are still within the "official" spec'd voltage range for an input voltage.

Nice progress by the way. I like those speaker mounts.

Taqpol

08/19/2010, 08:20 AM

What I noticed: Did you solder the CATs to the board at their large tab end? It's absolutely required... Can't tell from the picture but it looks like you haven't.

Umm... I am not following this. I can picture multiple schemes out of this English description. Some would be a problem. Can you draw it? Even a picture on a napkin would help.

The CATs ground is definitely soldered to the ground plane. I used DWZM's guide of of tinning both sides very lightly and then pressing down on the tab and the ground plane with the soldering iron until the two melted together. They are on very tight and this maximizes the thermal transfer as well as electrical conductivity.

Heres a wiring diagram for the LED barrier strips:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/PowerSketch.jpg

I am worried because when I put my multimeter positive on the Whites positive side and the blues negative side I read the voltage drop for the white power supply and vice versa.

kcress

08/19/2010, 01:22 PM

Thanks for the picture Taqpol! It helps everyone I think.

I certainly see what your question is now and it's a good one.

The answer is not obvious because we don't know exactly what's happening in all the various electronics. To get it resolved for your setup I'd make the following two measurements. Take both AC and DC readings with your meter.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/ug7vszthn3.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/oc7zx29uhi.jpg

der_wille_zur_macht

08/19/2010, 01:31 PM

Is that a wall outlet or his mouth in the second picture? :lol:

TheFishMan65

08/19/2010, 02:09 PM

I think it is the wall outlet. He is trying to determine if everyone is connected to the AC ground.

Taqpol

08/19/2010, 02:41 PM

Do those red x's on the arduino grounds mean you want me to disconnect them? If so, I will definitely not have a problem because those are the only wires that connect the two barrier strips together, but I also need to have the Arduino grounds connected to the CAT4101 driver board for the 5v source and the PWM.

TheFishMan65

08/19/2010, 03:49 PM

I think he want you to make those measurements with no power supplied. I think he is trying to figure out what grounds are already connected.

kcress

08/19/2010, 08:21 PM

Is that a wall outlet or his mouth in the second picture? :lol:

http://i34.*******.com/rrrpqx.gif

I even went and looked a receptacle to get the long slot right.

Yes! Disconnect the wires to the Arduino. Take the readings with the LEDs ON.

I want to establish what kind of voltages are present on the 'return' leads of these MWells. They aren't grounds because, if I recall, there is no ground connection to a MWell.

Taqpol

08/19/2010, 10:17 PM

Meanwell SP-320-24 with built in PFC protection.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/IMG_1327.jpg
These meanwell power supplies do have a ground line from the 120v AC, or at least they do have a screw terminal for a ground lead unlike the ELN Meanwells.

Also, if the Arduino cables are unplugged, even the grounds, the LEDs won't light. They require the 5v signal and the PWM, both supplied by the Arduino.

kcress

08/20/2010, 02:02 AM

http://i34.*******.com/rrrpqx.gifThey aren't grounds because, if I recall, there is no ground connection to a MWell.

[img] http://i46.*******.com/qp2kcm.gif/img]

I was thinking MW LED drivers... I didn't remember you we using MW DC power supplies. Sorry for the confusion.

If you're already using them and nothing has fried then proceed. I would change one thing. Run a jumper between the two terminal blocks (V-) and then run one wire to the Arduino.

kayaking2

08/20/2010, 06:32 AM

I wish I was as handy with electrical stuff. Nice lights. Can't wait to see pics with the whole tank lit up.

Taqpol

08/20/2010, 08:29 AM

http://i46.*******.com/qp2kcm.gif

I was thinking MW LED drivers... I didn't remember you we using MW DC power supplies. Sorry for the confusion.

If you're already using them and nothing has fried then proceed. I would change one thing. Run a jumper between the two terminal blocks (V-) and then run one wire to the Arduino.
Ok, nothing has fried so I am glad I have confirmation that this setup is ok from people that actually know what they're talking about. I spent a good deal of time talking to my father about the problem last night (a physicist), and he thinks everything should work fine as well. I did check every possible LED driver circuit with the multimeter when I first fired it up and they were all dropping the correct voltages.

Any reason one wire to the Arduino would be better then two in this situation?

I wish I was as handy with electrical stuff. Nice lights. Can't wait to see pics with the whole tank lit up.
I want to get them hung on the wall today, we'll see how that goes!

Taqpol

08/23/2010, 11:01 PM

I have LIGHT!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsAll.jpg

Quick Disclaimer!
All of these pictures were taken with my wife's P&S and my SLR is still in the shop. As such this does not represent the true color at all. That being said, I am very happy with adding two neutral whites per string of twelve cool whites and in the future I might have even gone more drastic with four or six neutral whites per twelve whites. The moment I get my SLR back I will try and take some true color photos.

My fixture has five fixtures of 24 LEDs a piece, twelve blues and twelve whites, controlled independently for ten channels of LEDs. The entire thing will be controlled by an Arduino Mega to ramp up and ramp down the LEDs from the left of the tank to the right to simulate sunrise and sunset. All the fixtures are mounted 12.5" above the tank (14.5" above the water) and the four outside fixtures have 80 degree optics on the outside rows and 60 degree optics on the two inside rows of LEDs. The entire center fixture has no optics, this is because I did not plan to have many high light corals in the middle valley of the tank and also for better coverage. Coverage is definitely not an issue, but PAR down the middle is, so I'll probably pop on at least 80 degree optics in the near future.

Here are some pictures to show what the coverage looks like based on individual fixtures. The far left and far right are interesting because I have them angled into the tank.

Far Left
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsMidLeft.jpg

Middle Left
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsMidLeft.jpg

Center
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsCenter.jpg

Middle Right
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsMidRight.jpg

Far Right
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsRight.jpg

Some people think you can use high power LEDS as moonlights. Maybe if you could just run a single one, but when I tried my smallest possible amount of the twelve center white LEDs with a PWM signal of 1 (out of 0-255) I thought it was still much too bright to be used as a moonlight.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsMoon.jpg

It is cool that the DIY drivers I used dim all the way down to 1 as it is a neat effect. Here are all the fixtures at 1 of 255.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsOne.jpg

And now what everyones been waiting for, the PAR numbers! Thanks go out to ReefEnabler for letting me borrow his meter!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/82310LightsFTS.jpg

Numbers in red are the PAR numbers at the very top of the water. Numbers in yellow correspond to the reading taken directly in front of a coral or outcropping of rock. Numbers in black are on the sand bed. For reference, the tank is 220 gallons, 72"x30"x24" tall.

As you can see, the PAR is definitely lacking in the central area. I'll test again after I throw some optics on. Other than that PAR drops off significantly towards the front and back of the tank (it is 30" wide), but that shouldn't be too much of a problem since I don't have any rockwork there to grow corals on. Going by the rule of thumb of 200 PAR for SPS corals I should be able to grow them almost anywhere in the tank, including the sand bed in some areas.

sammy113

08/23/2010, 11:05 PM

Yay I was so waiting for this moment! looks so good! I love how you can turn each unit independent to make the sunrise/sunset. I could only imagine that plus dimming. Super badass. Plus that PAR number are great! keep it up

XSiVE

08/26/2010, 07:50 AM

wow taqpol, very nice execution!

wesley6610

08/26/2010, 07:58 AM

Looks good, following along for sure!

NeveSSL

08/26/2010, 09:09 AM

Awesome, Alex!

Is there anyway that you could PM me a link to those DIY drivers? I can't find the board for purchase.

Thanks!

Brandon

der_wille_zur_macht

08/26/2010, 09:25 AM

This is the driver thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1759758

It's a long read, and the particular design Alex used, based on the CAT4101 chip, isn't even discussed until this page:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1759758&highlight=cat4101&page=23

Though we do start discussing the CAT4101 around page 14.

There is no commercial source for the PCBs or completed drivers, you have to get the Eagle files (linked in the thread), make gerbers from them, then get a board house to manufacture the PCBs. If you need help with any of this, feel free to post in the driver thread, or ask me or Alex or someone else who's had them made.

NeveSSL

08/26/2010, 09:27 AM

Many thanks, DWZM. :)

I'm probably going to get some PCBs made of a mic pre I'm working on (in Eagle... if I can learn it!), too, so I may try to kill two birds with one stone.

Brandon

nreefer

09/09/2010, 07:44 AM

Looks amazing! I have a 30 inch wide tank (12" of eurobracing - 6" each side) that is viewable from both sides and is 32 inches deep. Do you think I could use a 12" wide Heatsink to cover both sides or should I go with 2 x 8 inch wide heatsinks with a 3" space between them?

Taqpol

09/09/2010, 08:09 AM

If you have a fish only or low light tank a ten inch heatsink with no optics on the LEDs would do just fine for you. If you are trying to light a reef tank I would definitely go with two heatsinks. This is mainly because of the 32" depth of your tank. If you need a lot of PAR down near the bottom you are going to have to use 40 degree optics and have more LEDs to make up for the lost coverage.

Taqpol

09/14/2010, 09:22 PM

Well, I finally got around to taking the true color pictures I promised a long time ago. Let me just say, taking nice pictures of a LED driven system is MUCH harder then my previous T5 system. With the T5's I would shoot in the RAW mode on my camera (Canon T1i) and then adjust the white balance in kelvins to 14000 to 18000 to match the lighting in Photoshop. It turns out that for some reason my cameras sensor can not get the kelvin right under LEDs, it can't even get the tint right! In the photoshop RAW editor the auto white balance would set the images around 6500K and a tint of -10 (towards green). After fiddling with all the different settings for an hour before finally trying Photoshop's auto white balance eye dropper I discovered that a Kelvin of ~14000 and a tint of -120 (that is not a typo) matched the colors of my tank almost perfectly!

FTS
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/091410FTS.jpg

GARF Purple Bonsai. This coral almost died off completely in my tank moving fiasco, but I managed to save this tiny piece that completely browned out over two months in my friends QT tank with T5 lights. After being in the LED lit tank for less then a month it has already colored up to this and is improving steadily:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/091410Bonsai.jpg

In my last T5 driven tank I had a problem where most of my corals would eventually get some shade of green in them. In this tank I have the opposite effect occurring where my normally all green corals are starting to turn a more yellowish green. Not bad, just different.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/091410Brain.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/091410Birdsnest.jpg

However some green corals, like this Pavona have been staying a very nice shade. This particular coral has a different problem though, since the LED lights are so directional there are more shaded areas on this coral then their used to be and shaded areas are turning a tan/green mix.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/091410Pavona.jpg

Speaking of shading, this Sunset Montipora is also affected. This was the hardest coral to get the colors right on but I would say it is close.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/091410Sunset.jpg

Red BTA:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn248/Taqpol/091410BTA.jpg