Dinoflagellates.

[Fish Keeper82]

Update from post 3695 and 3700

I continue to be "Dino free" since April 2016. Im still running UV during the night and dare not to stop that trend even though I have not seen a string in a very long time. I've slowly added 20 SPS frags since May and all are growing very nicely. Some already small colonies.

After a long battle of 7 months with these Dinos I am finally enjoying my tank to the fullest. I belive my year and a half reef is finally out of the ugliest.
My approach I did to beat them is in the 3695 post. I know that no one Dinos method works for all or even 2 for that matter.

I wanted to share my update sine I was encouraged myself when fellow reefers posted positive results. In hindsight I wish I would have taken more full tank pictures when the Dios was at its worst. Since this one was just the tip of the iceberg.

BEFORE:
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s611/sparky350ci/Mobile%20Uploads/20160325_143519_zpszvy1mkpl.jpg


AFTER:
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s611/sparky350ci/Mobile%20Uploads/20161013_113931_zpsttxdotbk.jpg

[jason2459]

Dinoflagelets of a good kind

From my xenia
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24772319

[bertoni]

Update from post 3695 and 3700

I continue to be "Dino free" since April 2016.It's good to see a success story on eliminating dinoflagellates. Thanks for the update!

[enb141]

Update from post 3695 and 3700

I continue to be "Dino free" since April 2016. Im still running UV during the night and dare not to stop that trend even though I have not seen a string in a very long time. I've slowly added 20 SPS frags since May and all are growing very nicely. Some already small colonies.

After a long battle of 7 months with these Dinos I am finally enjoying my tank to the fullest. I belive my year and a half reef is finally out of the ugliest.
My approach I did to beat them is in the 3695 post. I know that no one Dinos method works for all or even 2 for that matter.

I wanted to share my update sine I was encouraged myself when fellow reefers posted positive results. In hindsight I wish I would have taken more full tank pictures when the Dios was at its worst. Since this one was just the tip of the iceberg.



Great news.

Do you continue doing the blackouts every week or after some days?

What are your parameters of your tank at this moment?

What food and what's the amount are you using to feed your fish/corals?

[Fish Keeper82]

Great news.

Do you continue doing the blackouts every week or after some days?

What are your parameters of your tank at this moment?

I have not done a blackout since early June. I'm dosing 2 part Alk and Cal at a rate of 45ml a day to keep me at my 9.1 dkH target. I'm also doing about 15 percent water changes every 2 weeks.

Temp 81-83 Apex
PH 7.84 min at night and 8.20 max during day Apex
Alk 9.0 dKH. Red sea
Cal 415 ppm Red sea
MAG 1350 ppm Red sea
Nitrate 10ppm Red sea
Phosphate 0.03 ppm Hanna Checker
Specific gravity 1.026 Refactometer
ORP min 474 max 497 Apex

I don't test or monitor anything else.

[Fish Keeper82]

What food and what's the amount are you using to feed your fish/corals?

125 gallon tank. With 1 Blue tang, 2 clowns, 1 chromis, and 3 gobies.

I feed almost exclusively frozen food. I alternate between....

Hikari :Brine shrimp, Mysis, and Squid. I alternate 1 cube of Haikari every day.

Rods food: Pacific Plankton, Original, I alternate between the two and LRS.

LRS reef freenzy

And Nori from the food store

Very minimal instant Ocean Marine chips( like once a week sprinkled in with the frozen) I feel like I need to add this just to supplement and nutrition they might not be getting with just frozen. I don't want to add Selcon for supplementation because it promotes Cyano in MY tank.

I feed one cube of Hikari and about one cube of Rods or LRS a day ( Rod and LRS are flat sheets so I try to break off the equivalent of one cube).
So 2 cubes a day thawed in RODI and strained with Brine shrimp net. Along with 1/4 sheet of nori daily.
It looks like a snow storm at feeding time.

Edit: I also feed BRS reef chili about once evert 3 days. 4 scoops of the BRS provided spoon.

[Fish Keeper82]

I should add I am about to reduce feeding a bit since I'm up to 10 ppm Nitrate. I aim for 5ppm.

[enb141]

Thanks for your reply, for what you are feeding and no more dinos in your tank I can say they are gone.

In my case if I add frozen food or reef roids with coral frenzy dinos start to appear from nowhere in just a few minutes.

Good luck and I hope you never get back this bastards.

[DNA]

I'm waiting for divine intervention.

[nvladik]

I'm waiting for divine intervention.



As in?

[ksc]

As in?


Vibrant Reef Aquarium Cleaner 16oz Algae Control

I've seen the owner of this stuff claiming it will beat Dino's. Here's what he claims it contains


Vibrant Liquid Aquarium Cleaner Ingredients -

95% Cultured Bacteria Blend
1% Amino Acids (Aspartic Acid)
0.5% Vinegar - This is used as the preservative
3.5% Other Ingredients (RO/DI Water)

Doesn't appear too dangerous to try. I beat my dino's by overdosing live phyto and UV.

[africangrey]

I also saw that in another forum where Jeff claim it beats different strain of Dinos, not sure about the Ostreo. will order a bottle and see what happen.

Vibrant Reef Aquarium Cleaner 16oz Algae Control

I've seen the owner of this stuff claiming it will beat Dino's. Here's what he claims it contains


Vibrant Liquid Aquarium Cleaner Ingredients -

95% Cultured Bacteria Blend
1% Amino Acids (Aspartic Acid)
0.5% Vinegar - This is used as the preservative
3.5% Other Ingredients (RO/DI Water)

Doesn't appear too dangerous to try. I beat my dino's by overdosing live phyto and UV.

[ttls1]

Just thought I would add my experience with dino's. I had a pretty severe case in my reef for the last 6 months bad enough that 2 hours after siphoning out the dino's it looked like you had done nothing. Sps all began dying and I was seriously considering taking it down and starting over. After reading this thread I decided to try a multi pronged approach. I am very close with my local lfs so I took my fish and corals over to the store and began the treatment. I blacked out the entire tank sump etc dosed hydrogen peroxide daily and ran 200mg of ozone for 10 days. After opening it up there was no sign of dino's so I went and retrieved my fish and coral and everything has been great since just over a month now and 0 sign of dino's. As a side note I missed a crab or two and a couple of snails when transferring the livestock and they all survived as did the sps that was left on the rocks after pulling the colony so I believe this could be done with livestock still in the tank.

[bheron]

I've been battling this stuff for 1.5 years now. Discovered the dirty method and it works, but always overdo it and wind up then battling hair algae for an even longer time. Ugh. So I brushed up a bit by reading the last 10 pages dating back to May-ish.

- is this still the main thread? seems like its quieted down. people jump over to that other thread with the new approach (cant remember the name)

- I know the right way is to first determine which type I have. I cant see enough under my sons microscope. Other than buying a scope just for this not sure what else I can do?

- I will say my type, which just started coming back, includes a film on the surface of the water. maybe all dinos do. but that's usually my first sign that its coming back.

[africangrey]

vibrant all the way, not a sight of osteo anywhere after 5 doses, 15mL/100gal twice a week. I really had a bad case where every inch of my rocks, backwall and sand bed were covered by this and killed all by acro 1 by 1. No side effect at all, though I only have RBTA, rabbit fish, picasso clown and cleaner shrimp. Sorry don't have any post picture, but this is before.
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/spencerwu/Reef%206-28-10/th_20160422_080916_zpsokx9gfcy.mp4 (http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/spencerwu/Reef%206-28-10/20160422_080916_zpsokx9gfcy.mp4)

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/spencerwu/Reef%20DIno/20160421_203717_001_zpsgvkoccbm.jpg (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/spencerwu/media/Reef%20DIno/20160421_203717_001_zpsgvkoccbm.jpg.html)

[DNA]

I felt it was time to slow the pursuit down after all those years and let others pick up the pace which seems to be happening in the other thread. Anyone got a link?

The situation in my tank has improved drastically over the past few weeks since I've removed all the sand, a third of the rocks and followed up with extensive daily cleaning.

The aim is to figure out the effect that marine snow has on the dino population and how much is being produced. I still need a few weeks, but so far it's been an eye opener.

[Ostri]

Need some help... Identified as Ostreopsis Ovata under miscroscope. How to kill them? I've heard that Dino X doesn't work on them.

[neiltus]

Well guys, latest victim here.

http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l531/neiltus/aquarium/B4431096-B45F-4454-A2CA-B6F935530CB9_zpskshkpo6w.jpg

http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l531/neiltus/aquarium/9F515032-913B-4C48-841B-3674B670C0BB_zpszutoj8pj.jpg

Been looking over this thread for a couple days. I believe to have an Amphidinium outbreak. The photos above were taken this morning when I turned on the lights prior to the evening. The brown stuff on the substrate gets more intense throughout the day, and then fades with lights out. I also note that in the areas where direct light does not hit the substrate there are no noticeable brown patches (although assume it's present). No bubbles, and it's not on the rock.

Tank History
Reefer 350, started in late July with TBS rock and Arag-Alive Special Grade substrate. No fish present, 2 frags, 1 wall hammer, 2 BTN, one pistol shrimp, one peppermint shrimp, and one cleaner shrimp, few turbos, 2 fighting conchs.

Salt to date was HW Marinemix. Recently switched to Red Sea (regular) because it was dirt cheap locally. RO is a 6 stage BRS (2 carbon and 2 DI). Lights are 2 Kessil A360WE, max intensity is 45% and max color is 30%, ramp up over 8 hours. Apex controller, RD3 50w pump, BK mini 160 skimmer. Dosing 2 part till recently (more later). Water change schedule has been ~ 10 gallons a week (more later).

There was no cycle with the TBS rock, but I did have die off. NO3 hit 50 (salifert) or so, PO4 hit 1ppm (hanna), currently I have been running some GFO to get the PO4 down to about .07 and water changes to get the NO3 down to about 20ppm. I had a patch of GHA on the rock which are now gone.

I initially thought the dino was diatoms, so I added the 2nd DI to the RO and changed out the first when I initially started seeing the brown stuff. At about this time I started the GFO (it removes silicates too).

I currently am skimming pretty wet. I empty the cup every two days and change socks about every 3-4 days.

The brown stuff on the substrate has been there for about 3 weeks, I tried lights out for three days and it went away for about 2 days (during this period I added the nems).

Kh is 8.16 or better (would dose to 8.3 if at 8.16) and Ca 420-445 and Mg 1325-1400.

Rock looks great. Target feed shrimp with some LRS chunks about 2x week.

I have a Potters angel and Yellow shrimp goby in QT right now, they have been there for 5 weeks and will stay there till I get rid of the brown stuff.

Recent Variances
My Ph was pretty much 7.9-8.1 depending on the light cycle, in the past two weeks it has went into a range of about 7.75-7.85. More brown stuff appeared. My conchs have been below the substrate I assume getting their fill of the dino. I will also note I have a number of the red worms as observed by FishKeeper82.

I recently discontinued the 2 part and started dripping Kalk at night to combat the low Ph, hopefully help with PO4 and to keep my alk in check. My Ph has improved some it's up to 8.02 yesterday with a low of 7.8 in 24 hours. My Kh is at 8.48. Was doing 1/4 tsp in a gallon of water, upping this today to 1/2 tsp in a gallon, would like to see the Kh around 9.

SWAG
My Ph dropped bad as the Amphidinium got thicker. Thinking CO2 is doing something and hoping the Kalk will lower the CO2 and possibly fix this (yea right).

I have not done a water change this week.

Game Plan
I discontinued the GFO yesterday...don't know if that is making Fe available to the Amphidinium. Will continue Kalk, doubt it will hurt.

Thinking of going for no water changes and see if it chokes itself out naturally. Also thinking of vacuuming the substrate and doing a huge water change and continuing with the no water changes to see if this helps remove the population. I don't think this will help and I will be back were I am in 2 weeks.

-Might add some Chaeto to the sump.
-Was thinking Peroxide, but don't know how that will work with the Nems and shrimp.
-Ordered some Dino-x to have on hand.
-Worse case scenario, ditch the substrate.
-thinking of ordering about 40 cerith snails to churn substrate and eat the Amphidinium.

I would appreciate anyones thoughts and ideas on how to approach this. I have reached out to a couple others on the board with this and they did not really know how they got rid of it...which leads me to believe it choked itself out on it's own.

[DNA]

Very good report and a sound plan.
Move fast through your list and do many operations at once.

When did cerith snails start to eat dinos?

[neiltus]

Oops...meant cerith snails to just get some movement in the substrate. Curious if anything else would do better at this? Or would this be a waste of time?

I did read a few posts back where someone put some cheato down and it acted as a mulch of sorts to prevent their bloom? Any downside to doing that all over the entire exposed substrate (temporarily of course).

Thoughts on peroxide or Dino x with nems in the tank?

Anything I am missing?

Stop water changes or try one large change to siphon out as much of the Dino as possible?

[dartier]

I don't have dinos, but I stop in now and then to see how the fight is going. Today I was reading a thread here and on another forum about micro bubbling, basically making lots of very fine bubbles at night when your lights are off as a means of cleaning the tank of organics. Some users had reported that it was effective for them against dinos. That is when I thought of you guys :)

The technique comes from Elegant Corals. All it takes is a wooden air stone, air pump and a timer. For dinos one user mentioned he also dosed bacteria in addition to the micro bubbling. No promises, but if you have tried everything else ...

Dennis

[neiltus]

Welp, no time like the present...decided the first step would be to 'snow globe' the tank (Christmas is coming), so I mixed up two cups of kalk slurry using 2 tsp of kalk and dumped it in.

Ph went from 7.92 to 8.53.

Based on this article I am going to try this for a few days and see if it gets me anywhere.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

Nems are open, nothing appears stressed yet.

Also running about 100g of Red Sea carbon (started today) in case they puke up toxic crap in the tank. Hopefully save the snails. Might try to siphon out some tomorrow and do a partial small 2.5g water change(if I need to add water) and then re-dose kalk slurry to up Ph again. WTH...since they are sensitive to fresh water a little HYPO will not hurt anything, I will just siphon out the volume that I slurry in...easy enough.

[Fish Keeper82]

I don't have dinos, but I stop in now and then to see how the fight is going. Today I was reading a thread here and on another forum about micro bubbling, basically making lots of very fine bubbles at night when your lights are off as a means of cleaning the tank of organics. Some users had reported that it was effective for them against dinos. That is when I thought of you guys :)

The technique comes from Elegant Corals. All it takes is a wooden air stone, air pump and a timer. For dinos one user mentioned he also dosed bacteria in addition to the micro bubbling. No promises, but if you have tried everything else ...

Dennis

I tried this back when I had Dinos. I was really hoping this would work since the concept seemed promising. At the time one of my local reef club members had a thread about Nano bubbling. This reefer was talking directly with one of the Elegant Corals reps. Nano bubbling did absolutely nothing for my Dinos from a visual stand point.

After I spoke my peace on how bubbling simply did not work for Dinos, It was then stated by the Elegant coral rep that made his way to the forum that Nano bubbling alone does not get rid of Dinos. "Tease are not magic bubbles" is what he said. It was then revealed I had to purchase a few products from Elegant Corals in conjunction with the Nano bubbling in order for it to work :hmm3:(I did not).

In short the idea was out completion by bacteria and algae and such summed up by the rep as "Darwinism". Same idea we try by the dirty method, phyto, pods, bacteria and such. I'm not saying Nano bubbling in conjunction with the products they are selling won't work, I hope It does work and hope to hear from some fellow reefers on some success stories here if indeed it does. They have a detailed list of day by day steps to do in conjunction with the bubbling I saw back then.
I lost all interest in it since it was pitched to me as a simple home solution that you did not need to throw money at that people were not willing to try. Then I was told I needed to buy some products...

[neiltus]

Next step for me is mulching them via a kalk/sodium hydroxide paste delivered by large syringe then siphoned out. May try this in a few days if the elevated PH does not do anything.

Going to get medieval on their little butts.

[neiltus]

So far so good, nothing appears stressed, and both of my fighting conchs came out of the sand bed to assist (I hope)-wonder if the lowered CO2 levels have something to do with this.

I hit with Kalk slurry last night...got my Ph up to about 8.5, this morning I hit it again good and my ph is 8.85. To lower some of the water level in the sump from the slurry I vacuumed a portion of the sand bed. I got a photo of one of the red worms that are running around the sand bed. I don't know if they have anything to do with the Amphidinium, but they were observed by another member during his outbreak.

Got to step out of the house for a bit, so I have a calc drip running, it's interesting that ph drops pretty quick after adding the slurry. The article in reef keeping says die off is pretty good at 8.6 to 8.8 and slower from 8.4-8.5, so I think I am going to try to keep it at 8.4+ with occasionally steps above 8.6 every few days.

Surprisingly the water is clear.

War photos...

http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l531/neiltus/aquarium/4E2DEB0C-14F4-496B-B1FA-6551EB5CCBCF_zpspujpamjf.jpg

http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l531/neiltus/aquarium/1F0156C3-3432-459C-9F94-EAC37ED5E447_zpsp9yxm7ia.jpg

[neiltus]

While keeping Ph high, I have ordered some Dr Tims Bacteria and a bag of 5k pods and phytoplankton

[neiltus]

There is an interesting thread in another forum where people are throwing all types of stuff at different types of dinos-from metro to household bleach.

Two members on that thread have what look to be Amphidinium populations on the sandbed. Their fix..vacumm the bed, reduce lighting to 4-6 hours, bottle of dr tim's, introduce pods and plankton. Repeat every few days as long as there are visible populations on the sand.

This seems like a pretty non-invasive way to do things. Going to try this when the goods arrive prior to using meds or caustic solutions.

[DNA]

The fact my dinos have stayed at almost undetectable levels for weeks is insignificant compared to the positive side effects that followed their departure.
I'm not going into any details here on Reef Central, but I find it very likely that harboring a dino bloom in your home will affect your mental health.

I've felt this positive side effect on my vacations away from home, but as you know vacations are relaxing and nice so even though I suspected the dinos I could not come forward with this earlier. It took two weeks, after I got the dinos under control, for me to be convinced my mental capability was improving noticeably in several areas so now is the time to come forward with this.

Some of the effects of the Ostreopsis dinoflagellates neuro-toxins on humans is well known and to name a few like breathing problems, eye irritation and death one can see dinos are well capable to cause harm. It should not come as a surprise that they can cause several other illnesses that have not been well documented or researched yet and the brain is all about neurons so why should it be excluded? I know about mold in homes and how it effects those that are exposed to it long term and I see many similarities between these two.

How the dinos get from the tank into the human body is anyones guess, but I can think of a few ways like into your lungs with mist from the surface and skimmer, dried out filter socks and evaporated seawater out of the tank. If you are doing micro bubbles this is amplified exponentially. Then there is entry through the mouth and the eyes with smearing from fingers, skin and clothes.

The effect could creep in so slowly it is not noticed and we are not yet publicly aware of that dinoflagellates can diminish our brains processes so we just don't have a clue when it settles in.

This is probably the most important discovery I've ever made and I think it has to be heard, discussed and proven so please spread these words.

[ocho cinco]

I read through some of this thread but man is it long.

Looking for recommendations for my scenario. I have a 30 gallon. Dinos are pretty minimal but enough to keep attaching to my zoas and preventing them to open. What approach should I take and how drastic?

Thanks!

[neiltus]

So, about a week into this, done a few days of the high pH thing, also did a wc. I will also note a couple observations.

1) I put in a magnetic frag rack to keep some small frags away from the bulldozer snails. I noticed this rack, which is up high to get a lot of light and no access from CUC...well, dino loves loves loves it. I would assume that this is because there is nothing walking on it, disrupting it's growth or molesting it in any way.

Since dino is in our systems just not all at 'ugly' levels. Could a dino 'outbreak' in a tank be because there is not enough natural movement of water and creatures to keep it from settling in a spot and 'getting ugly'? Stirring it up might help push it into the filter socks and skimmer, where it can be exported and the tank be kept looking decent.


2. Since my conchs are now off strike and back at work, the sandbed looks wonderful. This observation also kinda supports what I see on the frag rack above. I do think they eat the dino, but with a microscope and dissecting one, I will not know. Might try it at one point. I did order some FL and MEX cerith snails.

My tank has been fish free since July. There are some inverts in there that I target feed about once a week. I have been keeping fish free b/c of QT new fishes and getting a good fallow period prior (>4 months) to introducing fish. I had a minimal CUC - 9 snails, 2 conchs, couple shrimp. I think this practice has accelerated the problem quite a bit-too little going on results in a habitat where the dino can overpopulate and not be harassed.

One thing is bugging me though. After introducing GFO a few weeks back I had a strong die-off of GHA and my pH range dropped. With this I started seeing the dino. This goes in the too clean category and kinda follows the 'I made habitat for them' thought. So, I ordered a ball of cheato and some shaving brush macro. The cheato is going in the sump and the shaving brush is pretty enough to go in the DT. I also dumped a bag of pods in the tank. A little GHA is not bad, but when we start taking stuff to the extreme with ultra low PO4 then we can expect the lowest common denominator life forms to move in.

Anyway, just some thoughts and observations. I will chime back in after I double up on CUC and get the plants in the tank.

[E36328i]

#3695

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[neiltus]

Well, a few things I have done have visually eliminated the substrate buildup of what I thought to be Amphidinium.

1) Took GFO offline, was probably using too much too fast, and this brought my PO4 down big time, which probably allowed the Amphidinium to move into place because they were not competing with the upper algae types. Since taking GFO offline I am getting more green stuff on the rocks and my PO4 today was .27. I was running almost 1/4 c + and changing regularly every few days, did get the PO4 down under .07, but with it appeared the Amphidinium.

2) Changed carbon, running Seachem Purigen.

3) Added a bag of Pods. Added some Dr. Tims. Added some Phyto. Added some macro in the fuge.

4) Used Kalk over a few random days to bring pH up to 8.6-8.8 during lit period. Did this for 4 days with a break in between.

I doubt it's gone, but the environment has changed and is holding it back from being ugly.

One odd thing, I did add a frag rack, and that is pretty high in the tank and it is getting a dusting of a different brown bubbling dino. I think this stuff like to go to an environment that it does not have to compete in.

[DNA]

Many of your tests will end up in the gray zone rather than to have an actual result.
Do post your findings and especially if they are useful for the community.

[DNA]

I've been doing a series of tests on marine snow, debris, detritus and have to agree on what scientists say about it's part in the natural dinoflagellate blooms.

Even though I've seen dinos sitting on bare rocks the most common places they settle in is where there is organic debris. So this adds to the other parameters we have discussed frequently.

Here is an awesome photo that shows what dinos are doing when they are free swimming.
This has to be the same stuff that binds the dinos in mats.

https://youtu.be/4WB-NNS84Eg?t=2963

[neiltus]

I've been doing a series of tests on marine snow, debris, detritus and have to agree on what scientists say about it's part in the natural dinoflagellate blooms.

Even though I've seen dinos sitting on bare rocks the most common places they settle in is where there is organic debris. So this adds to the other parameters we have discussed frequently.

Here is an awesome photo that shows what dinos are doing when they are free swimming.
This has to be the same stuff that binds the dinos in mats.

https://youtu.be/4WB-NNS84Eg?t=2963

I will check it out. On a slow connection tonight...but will get to it.

It's interesting how Jason has taken his tank in and out of bloom a few times. For me, this just shows how one of us with dino/cyano/gha, can take or change one variable to the extreme thinking it's good for the tank, and something else quickly falls into it's place in the ecosystem.

I think a large part of my Amphidinium bloom was the use of GFO over the previous month. I was beating down a .5+ppm and I think I graciously overdid it too quickly and it was replaced by the bloom. I did manage to kill back all the GHA pretty quick.

Anyway, I added some GFO back in the reactor, to see if I can repeat the same thing...ha.

[africangrey]

man no wonder my mental stability and my cognitive functions have deteriorated since my osteo exploded. and continue on after gotten rig of them with dosing of Vibrant. I think the dino toxin will linger on and our liver or kidney isn't able to metabolize it. Wondering if anyone has examine the half life of of this substance.

[trmiv]

So my tank is pretty much covered in dinos. I've had reefs for 12 years, and never had them. My current tank is a 120, but the bulk of the rock I've had for 9 years. It moved from a 40 to a 65 to a 60 and now to my 120. I've added dry base along the way. Moved into this 120 when we moved houses and the tank was beautiful for about two months until these nasties invaded. Since then my snails have died and my coral health has gone down the tubes.

I suspected they were dinos, but today my wife who is a teacher borrowed some microscopes from the science teacher at her school. I managed to maneuver my iphone to get some photos of these nasty things. Here is the best one. Does anyone know what species I'm dealing with here?

https://s18.postimg.org/l8i4qo3c9/IMG_0849.jpg


Here is a link to get the original image if that helps

https://postimg.org/image/5zs7cw9np/

[Fish Keeper82]

Trmiv,
Here is a link of some of the most popular species in our tanks. The videos help with ID since the different species have different movements as well.
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

[trmiv]

Thanks for the link. I'm not sure mine looks like any of those three. I took a video at various magnifications if anyone wants to see (forgive my daughter watching Elf in the background :) ). Mine move more like bumper cars, they are all over the place

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2sikyw914qvezg7/AABPMQxjBRfk80cNAW0Sqfn5a?dl=0


and here is another pic i snapped

http://i.imgur.com/gXDEaZ6.jpg

[DNA]

trmiv: At least they are are not Ostis and they move so fast it looks like the videos are sped up.
What ever you have is toxic so take precautions.

african gray: I don't think anyone has even made this connection between dinos and mental health, but it has been done with mold and the symptoms can vary wildly on members of the same household.

[Kurt03]

Very interesting DNA, re the nuero implications. Sounds like we absorb the toxin and then slowly metabolize it. Sounds like a couple weeks delay after getting fresh air points to the half life, or recovery time anyway. Very cool observation. Any idea how to research this more workout experimenting on our selves?

[rhinonm]

Check out a product called Vibrant. Huge thread on the other reef 2 reef site. I had a huge dino problem. Been dosing for 1+ month and they are 95% gone. Its a bacteria product. I tried everything..metro, dinox, blackouts, bleach (didn't go big enough).

[jason2459]

Checking it out
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2611990

[nematode]

We have tried so many things that you should aim for something wildly different from what has already been proven to be futile.

I am finally trying oryzalin (a plant "specific" microtubule inhibitor). See my post 340-343 for a little more detail. It has been two years and this one tank of mine still has this dinoflagelatte like condition (I think it is actually a Eudorina based on the looks), but it behaves like a classical dinoflagelllate.

Dosed a very low dose ( 3ml of 0.1 mg/ml in ethanol) this evening.

will push until I see an effect or run out of oryzalin

[neiltus]

We have tried so many things that you should aim for something wildly different from what has already been proven to be futile.

I am finally trying oryzalin (a plant "specific" microtubule inhibitor). See my post 340-343 for a little more detail. It has been two years and this one tank of mine still has this dinoflagelatte like condition (I think it is actually a Eudorina based on the looks), but it behaves like a classical dinoflagelllate.

Dosed a very low dose ( 3ml of 0.1 mg/ml in ethanol) this evening.

will push until I see an effect or run out of oryzalin

Interesting. Would like to hear back on this.

My Amphidinium issue seems under control as of today. I know there still there, but wonder if enough molestation I did cut them back:

Actions:
1) added another conch and some sandbed snails to stir up more crap
2) raised pH via Kalk, total of 5 days over 8.4 during lights on periods, gave a break after each day.
3) raised dkh from 8.3 -> ~9.5
4) dumped some pods in there.
5) Added some Dr. Tims
6) tried adding a shaving brush plant in the fuge, skimmer went ape and it stank, removed and replaced with some cheato.
7) Added some seachem purigen
8) Turned up light intensity a little

Also have a decent microscope on the way...so I can actually get an ID and photos on this stuff. Pretty excited about that. Had a clinical pathologist help me with the model.

I added back GFO on 11/30, maybe 2/10 cup to see if that would bring them back. Cleaned skimmer last sunday.

I hate to say the battle is done...but the sandbed looks nice.
PO4-.08 Hanna
NO3-25 Salifert
34.4 cond.
77.5-78.3
Ca 430
Mg 1350

I ordered a bottle of vibrant just to have on hand. Not dosed yet.

[DNA]

I took a brief look at the other Vibrant threads and what I read makes sense in several ways so I'm going to attempt to import it.
I have very little faith in bottled magic solutions, but have nothing to lose so why not.

I've established a firm believe, through my latest observations, that marine snow (debris or detritus) is essential to dinoflagellates.
My tank has the most dense floating particle count I've seen in any tank and that is without any sandbed and very short lighting period.
The skimmer is pulling less of it than I'd expect, but the filter sock can clog in a day. There is plenty of hard fecal pellets and calcareous particles in there that one would expect the skimmer to have a hard time to remove. It's been this way for a very long time and to my surprise the effect of removal of the sand-bed and drastically shorter lighting period, was negligent.

If the stuff works I've got a pretty good idea how we get dinos in the first place and how to maximize its chances.

[TampaSnooker]

I'm not a fan of bacterial potions in general either, but used it on a customer's tank with ostis and in one week since I've seen the tank, about there was about 60% reduction. To be fair, we did do a bit of dirty method by dosing dead phyto so copepods had other foods to consume and not overdose on dinos.

[DNA]

I've mentioned marine snow a few times now and none have picked up on how important it is.
Marine snow is essential for Ostreopsis dinoflagellates and probably other species of dinos as well.
I can say this now with certainty since I have no visible dinos in my display tank.
It's like a law of nature and it has been accepted in the natural science world.
It's just that reefers have not paid any attention to it and we have not been able to prove it as a cause for dinoflagellate blooms.

That's why I set out to do just that.
I removed around 95% of the sandbed and 40% of the live rocks to reduce surface area.
Then for weeks I blew the marine snow off the remaining rocks up to 10 times a day and siphoned the remaining sand every other day for weeks.
An XL filter sock would clog up every day and the amount that kept coming was unbelievable and it still is.
Now with nothing short of compulsive dedication and massive amounts of time spent the results are in.

Marine snow is essential to dinoflagelles. It is that simple.

No visible dinos in the display tank, but small patches in the sump since much of the marine snow does not skim well.
------

I urge you to prove me wrong, but I don't think that is going to happen so I'm suggesting a method to get you going in reproducing my results.
First I must mention that this would be considered drastic by most reefers and certain to change several things in your reef tank so use it a last resort and if you have little or nothing to lose. Fish will be fine, but corals and critters may get hit. I'm pretty sure there are side effect from this as well as from the dino toxins that are already in you tank.

Remove all corals. You can place them in your sump after your get it spotless.
Remove all sand. Yes that means all of it.

Set up a series of buckets with clean water from your tank and spin your rocks in there.
The first one is going to get dirty really fast so put it aside and let the dirt settle and reuse most of the water in another bucket.

You may now have ridden you tank of around 90% of the marine snow, but it may not be enough so you may need to do this several times.
I'd recommend at least twice a week for the rocks. Do use filter socks, loads of current and all the detritus reducing methods you can come up with. This is not an easy task so expect it to take a lot of work and weeks or months of time.

------

I call it marine snow, but since our tanks are really small compared to the ocean it's not the exact same thing.
It consists of many things, but the most noteworthy could be fecal pellets, bacteria and small lifeforms.

Even if you manage to rid your tank of dinos this way it's more than likely it will not be instantly ready for difficult corals.
We are just not there yet.

[trmiv]

I've been through an 8oz bottle of Vibrant at 2 doses a week and unfortunately it hasn't made much of a dent in my dinos. Not sure what method I'm going to try next, but I'm more likely to just break the entire tank down than battle these for any longer. Already been at it for 6 months, and I'm about done trying. Along with my snails and corals, they are killing any enjoyment I have for reefkeeping.

[garygonzales]

just do a longer black out...maybe 4 -5 days...that helped me when i was in same spot

[trmiv]

I did a 4 day once and then a 3 day covered in plastic. It all goes away and then comes back.

[neiltus]

I did a 4 day once and then a 3 day covered in plastic. It all goes away and then comes back.

which dino are you dealing with? photos?

[trmiv]

which dino are you dealing with? photos?

Not sure. I posted them earlier in the thread

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24845947&postcount=4039

[DNA]

In my case there is a clear link between dinos and marine snow. I've been trying to spot if that is the case for other tanks as well.
It's quite difficult to eyeball the density of floating particles since it's all about reference. A dimly T5 lit reef tank with a bright background will not reveal them well compared to a bright small light source against a black background. The best general method would be to use a very bright (led) flashlight in total darkness. You would shine it from a side panel and watch the particles from the front panel.

The indirect indication in my tank is that the skimmer is not pulling the same amount of gunk as before. These things change slowly so reefers are unlikely to notice them. The current theory is that the marine snow gets to stay longer in the tank giving dinos ample time to feast as they flock on top of them on the sandbed. If you get my drift you'll see how the claims from Vibrant make sense to me. It's the poop converting properties I'm excited about, so as I mention 5 posts back, assisting it the best way you can seems to be a wise thing to do.

The guys at BRS seem to have dinos in their show tank and high particle count. How is it in yours?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk0AYpLvxjE&feature=youtu.be&t=145

[jonwright]

Soooooo DNA: What are your thoughts now on the link with dinos and marine snow. Presumably I'd think carbon dosing would encourage bacteria to consume this before the dinos could get to it?

[bertoni]

Carbon dosing could help, but that's not always the case. At least some dinoflagellates can take up organic carbon directly, as well as perform photosynthesis using inorganic carbon. There are references to mixotrophic dinoflagellates that Google will find.

[neiltus]

Not sure. I posted them earlier in the thread

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24845947&postcount=4039

Are these primarily on your sandbed, or live rock?

[trmiv]

Sand, rocks, glass, pumps, overflow, snails, some corals, anything still for more than 5 minutes.

Here is what they actually look like on the sand

https://s29.postimg.org/6mnzgd3zr/IMG_0816.jpg

[koral_lover]

Anyone have success slowing down Dinos going 20k? I am a little unorthodox and run multiple 10k t5 tubes....i have had a 6 month Dino issue,although not severe. Lights out always seems to stress my sps too much because the tank isn't too stable to begin with the nutrient swings the Dino's seem to cause so I like to employ methods that are gentle as possible...tempted to run all blue and actinic bulbs to see if they slow down....think this would help?

[DNA]

Anyone have success slowing down Dinos going 20k? I am a little unorthodox and run multiple 10k t5 tubes....i have had a 6 month Dino issue,although not severe. Lights out always seems to stress my sps too much because the tank isn't too stable to begin with the nutrient swings the Dino's seem to cause so I like to employ methods that are gentle as possible...tempted to run all blue and actinic bulbs to see if they slow down....think this would help?

Your answer is on page one.
Get to know what has been tried and then get creative.

[koral_lover]

Your answer is on page one.
Get to know what has been tried and then get creative.

Thanks - I thought I was being creative...lol.

I looked at page 1, 250 MH 20k is much different than all T5 20k...crisp white vs. blue windex, that is if your running a radium vs t5 ati blue plus...nonetheless I may experiment. Dirty method, clean method, adding bacteria\diversity, dosing nitrate, etc. hasn't it cut it. Perhaps will invest in a UV.

Thanks for the help and great insight.

[trmiv]

I'm running 20,000k MH on my tank, and dinos seem to love basking in its blue glory. I've had both 20K Hamilton and 20K radium over this tank and they don't care either way.

[Grkgod36]

From some of the more experienced brothers on here. That read most or all of this . Can we get we get a re cap so far of the methods that seem to be working for most ?
Like dosing vibrant , black outs , cut lighting back , run dirty , etc etc

And things not do
Like water changes , some say not to run gfo ? And so on

I battling Dino's , I don't know the strain it's the stringy brown crap with bubbles .
On the rocks and sand , I blacked out the tank for 4 days 4 weeks ago and they came back !
Running a fuge with cheato , also a gfo reactor.
I'm not over feeding , nitrates at zero , phosphates at zero! All rodi filters are new.

I'm desperate I wouldn hate to have to tear down my tank .if I. Any beat them. And I don't want to dose chemicals that can hurt my fish .

I'm doing another 5 day black out ,and I just ordered some vibrant to dose .
A I run the blue leds 10hrs and white 4 hrs. I will also cut their timing down .

Any other suggestions ?

[karimwassef]

As an ex-Dino sufferer, I'll just point to my recent posts in another forum and present this concept - "algae is your friend"

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420&page=370

Same water, two zones:

Algae zone
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg"></a>

Coral zone
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"></a>

Here'a what mine used to look like

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C64EE2BF-AD68-4075-B149-3DF317D5E5B1_zpsn8ov3ei5.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C64EE2BF-AD68-4075-B149-3DF317D5E5B1_zpsn8ov3ei5.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C64EE2BF-AD68-4075-B149-3DF317D5E5B1_zpsn8ov3ei5.jpg"></a>

[DNA]

Got Vibrant in the mail last Friday.

Two weeks earlier I decided to finish what I had left of Algea-X / Dino-X.
Now that I only have three stamp sized patches of visible dinos left in the sump it should be a good indication if it works or not on a minuscule dino problem. In two weeks it has killed all my mini starfishes, the ones that lurk in their holes and put their tentacles out. It also killed my sponges. It left my ostreopsis dinoflagelles alone and the little algae I have left also.

Vibrant has had 48 hours in the tank. The skimmate is much lighter brown in color and there seems to be more of it. I think I'm seeing a bacteria bloom in the water column and the floating particle count there may have reduced a bit. I did not expect fast results so lets see what happens in a couple of weeks.

---

If you missed it I'd like to urge you to go back a page and read my posts from there.
I've successfully beaten dinoflagellates with a method that makes a lot of sense.

This thread has a big reader audience so I hope someone will take the health related issues further.
The effects are subtle, but very real to me. Reefers, sailors and people living in coastal areas need to know the facts on this.

[karimwassef]

The cure you mention is removing marine snow by removing sand and most rocks and all corals?

[DNA]

karimwassef:

The dirt trapping capability of sand is amazing.
It has to be removed.

Porous rocks will also hold loads of it.

Your corals will not experience stability while you are doing this.
Reduced lighting is also advised to reduce production of organic matter.
---

I've been at this mother of all pests for way to many years and have tried and tested so many things it's hard to figure out new ones. This one is the most logical and effective by far.
Since 99.99% of my dinos are gone and the remaining three stamp sized patches are probably less than what the average tank has you may call it a cure.

I'll call it success, for now.

[karimwassef]

Maybe the issue is truly the health of the sand...

I keep a thick sand bed but it's a vibrant mass full of worms. That's been a key to successfully keeping my sandbed.

Your remedy works for you. No question. But I keep a sandbed while getting rid of dinos... the difference is likely in the biofauna in the sandbed.

We tried water transfusions and live rock exchanges. Have we ever tried a sand bed transplant? Like a bone-marrow transplant.

[Kurt03]

I added sand from my non-dino mature display to my bare bottom qt tank that had dinos. Also moved some little bags of rubble that seeded in my main tank first. This along with getting my nutrients up enough to get some algae and bio diversity I feel is what got me over the hump.

[karimwassef]

I didn't think much of it but I added some worms directly to my sand early on. They were in a display in a LFS. I asked how much and the owner said he'd just give me a baggie of sand from that tank if I bought something... so I bought something.

[sowellj]

I posted this in a different thread but perhaps it is more relevant here. I have a relatively mild outbreak, but they are persistent. I have tried or am doing; bacterial dosing, reduced photoperiod, vibrant (1 month), peroxide (6 weeks), manual removal via filter floss.

It is hard to say, but the only things that I can truly say have helped are lights out and manual removal. If the other methods have, it has been subtle for me.

I may try dosing phyto and pods, hoping to further crowd out the dino and grow some other algae.

I have not tried dino-x or removing the sandbed. I guess those will be next on the list.

[Kurt03]

It might depend on the species but for me getting algae to grow was key as that brought on biodiversity. What's your no3 and po4 tests?
Do you have sand bed? My po4 wouldn't show up on test kits. Over feeding helped but I ended up dosing liquid phosphate to actually get readings. Feed the food chain from the bottom up. Can try just over feeding fish, but there's also mb7, Oyster feast, reef chili, phyto, etc

[sowellj]

Thanks Kurt. I have never once registered phosphate in my system. I may dose a bit to bring it up to detectable levels.

I do have a sandbed. Getting rid of it would be a next step as well.

[karimwassef]

I just hate the idea of people giving up sand beds because they don't have the right life in it. I would rather cure the sandbed than kill it.

[DNA]

I'd really like to have a sandbed and hopefully I can have one in the future.
Since removing it will get rid of loads of accumulated organic waste there is no choice for reefs plagued with dinos.
I'd like to stress that the rocks and other affected areas have to be dealt with as well.

Critters in the sand are very likely to help, but do they stand a chance against the dinos in the battle for organic nutrients.
An ecosystem is very complex and finding the correct balance is not easy.
That's why I would think the next logical step after the dinos are gone would be to get a large sample from nature.

[Ostri]

man no wonder my mental stability and my cognitive functions have deteriorated since my osteo exploded. and continue on after gotten rig of them with dosing of Vibrant. I think the dino toxin will linger on and our liver or kidney isn't able to metabolize it. Wondering if anyone has examine the half life of of this substance.

I'm having the same problem. Did Dino X kill your ostreopsis ovata?

[neiltus]

Back on page 161-162 you can see my problem. One of the things I changed was my salt mix. Up until that problem, I had been using HW Marinemix Reef. I tested it for PO4 and it came in at .03 on the Hanna Checker.

Back in November I changed to red sea blue bucket, and the dino gradually faded away. I did a number of other variable changes as well.

Last friday I did a water change of 17.5g with some of the HW Marine salt. I also prepared 10gallons of new water for a coral QT tank. This week the dino are back, not to the level that they were, but they are back nonetheless in both the DT (received 17.5g) and the coral QT (received 10g).

I do have another QT running with red sea blue salt in it, it is dino free.

I know this is purely coincidental, but I suspect that the salt mix has something in it that feeds them.

[DNA]

A root cause for dinoflagellates has been found.
Start reading DNA's posts from page 162.

You could stick your head back into the sand and wait forever or act now.
Unfortunately it's not the no-effort solution everyone wants, but the goal is simple and the right results are very likely if you do it properly.

[neiltus]

A root cause for dinoflagellates has been found.
Start reading DNA's posts from page 162.

You could stick your head back into the sand and wait forever or act now.
Unfortunately it's not the no-effort solution everyone wants, but the goal is simple and the right results are very likely if you do it properly.

In summary, clean your tank WELL to fix the problem. More through than you have in the past...socks, vacuum, blowing off rocks, skim, carbon/purigen (my choice), water movement and possibly even sand removal or elimination.

All that loose organic matter is a heyday for our one celled enemy.:debi:

[koral_lover]

So I spent a quite a bit of time studying from about post 100 and on. I decided to try the "dirty" method. Although, I am not sure it is a successful approach still or not as it was hard to keep track of who implemented it, saying it worked, then came back weeks later saying they had problems again.

In addition to the dirty method, i have started a ATS. I notice a fair amount of green algae on the glass now and also have some GHA now growing on the overflow and my ATS in the sump. Whats strange is I can't get a nitrate reading throughout the whole course of this tank's life! That bugs me as in tanks past I have always had an ongoing battle with nitrates creeping up. Phosphates in this tank seem easy to manipulate though in either direction.

On a positive note, the dinos have died down dramatically, so much so that I don't consider them a problem. However, Cyano has taken their place...where do I go from here? Keep riding dirty and see if the GHA takes over the Cyano and that my ATS picks things up? Try the ChemiClean?...but I don't want to make way for the Dinos again...

It seems from others experiences, I will inevitably always have to run a dirty tank as the minute they employed nutrient control techniques for GHA or cyano, the dinos came back.

Lastly, I haven't removed the sandbed.....yet...but if I can't get the Cyano under control, I will use my handy Home Depot bucket head and suck it out, followed by a water change. I really don't want to do this, as I can't stand barebottom tanks. The hobby has really become not enjoyable as of late...

[92reefer]

Hello All. I've been struggling trying to eradicate a nasty slimy brown type of growth that keeps coming back. This stuff starts as small almost translucent, very slimy little whisps which are strink like. They attach to sand rock tank, everything except the fish. They eventually grow and smother the rock work and completely cover the back of the tank.

existing thread with pics of before and after (recent tank reset):
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24931606#post24931606

I've already done several complete tank tear-downs, washed the everything, set it back up with new substrate rock etc. and eventually it returned as seen in the photo (below).

I'm just completely frustrated, but I found this thread and I think Dino's might be my problem.

I just did another tank reset and everything is scrubbed and cleaned. I'm thinking about trying VIBRANT as a proactive measure and hoping that will battle the Dino's (if that's what was taking over my tank) before they can get a foot hold on my tank.

Has anyone had success using this product?

[bertoni]

Some people have been successful with it, and others haven't seen much effect.

[DNA]

92 reefer.

It's time to bring out the microscope.
My bet is calothrix and perhaps dinos as well.

The pictures are not the best so that's my guess for now.

[92reefer]

Thanks Bertoni and DNA!

I don't have a microscope and didn't want to spend close to $100 on one.

I did find this older pic of the stuff before yet another tank reset. Does this pic help ID it?

I think I'll try the Vibrant first as it was only $25 and see what happens. If that fails I guess I have to pony up and spring for the microscope!

[bertoni]

I'm not at all sure what the stuff on the tank walls is. Vibrant seems to be a reasonable experiment.

[92reefer]

I'm not at all sure what the stuff on the tank walls is. Vibrant seems to be a reasonable experiment.

Thanks Bertoni!

I ordered it and will report back after it's in the tank..

[tri4god]

I am battling these guys. H202 has not worked. I just started dino X


https://youtu.be/r5j_HAkHU-U

[92reefer]

I am battling these guys. H202 has not worked. I just started dino X


https://youtu.be/r5j_HAkHU-U

Man I wish I had a microscope so I could positively ID my culprit :(

[TampaSnooker]

Man I wish I had a microscope so I could positively ID my culprit :(

Call your local high school's science teacher and see if they can assist. Use your cell phone to take a photo through the eyepiece if they don't have it hooked up to a computer.

[DNA]

Since this is a problem solved I see no need in further discussions here, but if you like to keep going be my guest.
I have no doubt that my results can be repeated by anyone with Ostreopsis dinoflagellates and probably most other types as well.

I'd like to thank everyone that participated and took active part in tests and discussions.
It's been a long journey and with persistence and stubbornness we have won a number of small victories and a the ultimate result eventually.

From day one in 2013 I set out to document, share and eliminate every imaginable method that I and others could come up with and towards the end I had a hard time coming up with new ones and almost lost all hope. I have to say there was no luck involved in finally getting rid of the dinos. I've spent ridiculous time on dinoflagellates so it was a well informed decision that nailed it. I really like to lead other reefers out of the dark and having showed the way, they can come out when they like.

The joy in finding a reason and a solution for such as a difficult problem as dinoflagellates is like nothing else.

Now I'm moving on.

[karimwassef]

Don't quit yet... now you can show pictures of a healthy reef :)

Share the good as well as the bad

[taricha]

Hey guys. How's it going?
I accidentally got rid of my dinos over the summer, stayed gone since. Accidentally in that I'm not sure what I did precisely. Got some theories though, but need dinos to test, so I've been going lax on the maintenance to give them chance to come back. Started getting cyano a few weeks ago, and figured the dino gateway has been opened.

Sure enough, as of today, got a couple of patches of amphidinium dinos in the tank now.

DNA, thanks for thread and all your contributions to it. I need to re-read your success story.
For the last third of this thread, I believed that when everyone else in the world had their dinos solved, DNA would still have his mutant immortal super-ostreopsis.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[robertifly]

Been dealing with it for 15 months and running dirty for 6 or more then tried Vibrant, dino are at least in remission. I've done a gravel clean and 20% wc still looking good. I like my tank again, YA! I did cut back on feeding and cut lighting to 80% maybe just the right combo.

[92reefer]

Just wanted to report back that I tried Vibrant Aquarium cleaner (states gets rid of algae etc) in my tank just after the most recent tank reset.

So far the residual grayish light brownish crap that was on the backwall of my tank and has been growing for almost 2 years is on the retreat. After the initial dose about a week ago I'd say that it has receded by almost 75% and is very close to being totally gone. I just applied the 2nd dose today and I'm very optimistic that this product will finally be just what I was looking for as a solution.

Not saying this is the fix-all for anyone and HATS OFF to DNA and everyone else's work on this thread/problem. Just reporting my experience: Also keep in mind I just did a tank reset and removed all old sand (replaced with new Tahitian Moon Sand = non aragonite based substrate) thus removing about 90% of the "crap" whatever it was out of the tank: so that back up what DNA and everyone else is saying about clean, clean clean. There was some residual "crap" still left on the backwall that I didn't get off. In previous tank resets this stuff would just grow and grow until about 6 months later, it would cover everything in the tank including backwall, sand and rocks. This time the residual crap has receded about 75%.

Very excited about the thoughts of a perpetually clean tank: so will post back in another week or so....

[neiltus]

maybe those trying vibrant can post some before/after shots?

[stan zemanek]

I just shot my first dose of Vibrant in my 200 gallon bare bottom tank. Have Dinos like crazy. I have spent weeks blowing off my rocks (like DNA suggested), and running high flow to get the crap to the sump and through my UV light. UV doesn't seem to kill it fast enough. All my tank parameter numbers are perect.

Crazy thing is I'll start blowing offf the crap and dino bubbles from the rock at one end of the tank and by the time I get to the far end of the tank the bubbles are back where I first started. Seems like the more you agitate them with a turkey baster, the faster they come back. Going to try vibrant for awhile, if that doesn't work I think it will be time to take up another hobby.

[Livingjewels]

God knows why this thread is still going..I think by the time you've read the 1st three pages you get the gist of the conclusion... Dino flagelates will be the last thing to exist on earth when all other organisms are dead..

The best advice I can give to you is flush your water down the drain, clean all rock and equipment.. and start again.. your wasting time and money and risking your health dealing with these things..

I tried allsorts like the things mentioned in here trying to resurrect the wellbeing of my tank..
I boiled my water which cleared them, but although I was free of them and none existed in my system after that I've never had anything live in my water other than fish and critters.

Corals would die within a few week.. ive since decommissioned that old tank and started a new one.. I can only advise the same to you to revert the wasting of time I suffered..

Good luck..

[Thor2j]

Can someone ID these dinos??

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170213/e06f4411902179d85ff0326ad6572f60.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170213/cd0687b18b1b82f6dc94d2737e565f69.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170213/07f05f434f7ebf7fa67e3e205c221a18.jpg

[Acromaniac]

Since this is a problem solved I see no need in further discussions here, but if you like to keep going be my guest.
I have no doubt that my results can be repeated by anyone with Ostreopsis dinoflagellates and probably most other types as well.

I'd like to thank everyone that participated and took active part in tests and discussions.
It's been a long journey and with persistence and stubbornness we have won a number of small victories and a the ultimate result eventually.

From day one in 2013 I set out to document, share and eliminate every imaginable method that I and others could come up with and towards the end I had a hard time coming up with new ones and almost lost all hope. I have to say there was no luck involved in finally getting rid of the dinos. I've spent ridiculous time on dinoflagellates so it was a well informed decision that nailed it. I really like to lead other reefers out of the dark and having showed the way, they can come out when they like.

The joy in finding a reason and a solution for such as a difficult problem as dinoflagellates is like nothing else.

Now I'm moving on.

Will be trying this method starting on the weekend, So far I have taken all my fish out and in to a holding tank, removed all my sps from the live rock and chucked the rock. The SPS now sit on egg crate racking. The tank will be spotless after I clean out the sump on the weekend. I will also run a 1 micron sock and hose out daily to ensure there is no marine snow. I will report back when I have results. My dino is osti and I have tried every method including Vibrant and even bleach as going on in another forum.

[Fish Keeper82]

Can someone ID these dinos??
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170213/07f05f434f7ebf7fa67e3e205c221a18.jpg

It looks like Prorocentrum to me.
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

[taricha]

It looks like Prorocentrum to me.

http://www.algaeid.com/identification/



+1 on prorocentrum. The only common kind I haven't had bloom in my system.

[Thor2j]

It looks like Prorocentrum to me.
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/
Will dino x or peroxide work on it?

[Fish Keeper82]

Will dino x or peroxide work on it?

It may be worth a shot. Dino X did absolutely nothing on my Amphidinium or Ostreopsis..... only major one left from the algaeid site is Prorocentrum. You would think Dino X works on something :confused:
An LFS in my area uses Dino X and swears by it. I have seen their tanks go from clean to Dino invasion time and time again though. So it seems to not fix the main issue. Again I have no experiance with Prorocentrum type.

[karimwassef]

Can someone with a video microscope put a drop of vibrant in a sample of dinos?

[africangrey]

I thought someone over on the other website did that, and the microscope saw bunch of moving bacteria.

[karimwassef]

But what were they doing to the dinos? Eating them? Outcompeting them?

[stan zemanek]

I thought the whole idea of Vibrant was to add a bacteria that out competed the dinos for nutrients. Thus starving the Dinos. I don't think the bacteria is there to attack the Dinos.

[Thor2j]

I thought the whole idea of Vibrant was to add a bacteria that out competed the dinos for nutrients. Thus starving the Dinos. I don't think the bacteria is there to attack the Dinos.
Been using vibrant for over 2 months, zero luck on the dinos. I know there are some that have had luck

[92reefer]

Been using vibrant for over 2 months, zero luck on the dinos. I know there are some that have had luck

I can't confirm that my tank has dinos (no microscope) although from reading tons of threads and looking at the pictures, I believe I have them.

That said, my most recent tank restart (siphoned old sand out, removed rock and replaced with clean white-dead rock, and scraped siphoned as much out of the tank) is going great with the Vibrant: I'm on my second dose and the stuff that I couldn't or didn't remove from the back wall has receded to almost 90% right now.

Like you said I think it's slowly dying because the Bacteria in the Vibrant is taking it's food source. Either way appears to working for me...

[jason2459]

But what were they doing to the dinos? Eating them? Outcompeting them?
Outcompete. But won't wipe out at least not in my case.

In the small sample of vibrant it did do something to some algae physically. Nothing that I could see against the dinos.

However, vibrant didn't effect my hair algae but eventually out competed cyano and dinos so they were knocked back to not being visually in the tank. The microscope shows both are still there.

[karimwassef]

If it's a healthy bacteria, I would support it. How would it compete with dinos but not hair algae? Not clear on why that would work.

[robertifly]

Vibrant is worth a try, worked for me. No dinos evident 1st time in over a year! Only other changes were reduced whites from 100% to 80% and cut back amount of daily food a little. I'm happy with the tank. Took about a month totally.

[rsepiphyte]

I am finding this thread fascinating. "Marine Snow" is something that i had not considered before. Has anyone used a Vortex Diatom filter on tanks infested with cyano or just as a way to polish the water and remove the "Marine Snow". Has this helped with the problem?

[bertoni]

I don't remember anyone using a diatom filter for that purpose, but it's a reasonable idea. The diatom filters are a bit tedious to use, I have been told, which might be why more people don't try them. It's possible that some searching might turn up a thread with some results.

[taricha]

taricha - maybe you should put a matrix table together ... name the dinos on top (left to right), and then the control variables/properties on the left (up down)...

armor
vulnerability to UV
vulnerability to Peroxide
vulnerability to Cilliate predation
Toxicity
benthic vs. night floating
Mixotrophic
.....

then we can add to the table as we learn more

Been thinking about this for a while, and as this 4000+ post thread is sorta catching it's breath, I think maybe it's a good time to take stock of what we know, and put in a somewhat accessible form.

Here's a Shared Google doc. Currently it's just an outline: I've set it to be editable by any interested party. I intend to work on filling in the outline as time permits with what we know, and hopefully convincing others to help out. It's not going to be any "new" revelations, just collection of what's out there. (but there's more success out there than people realize)
I feel like we have all the information to fill this out, it's just that the information in this guide currently exists as posts and papers and links scattered in many threads across several places connected together by the brains of users who've been following this battle.

My questions are:
#1 do we think this would be worth doing?
#2 anything about the outline that any can think should be added? other treatment methods I've overlooked? Other things people mistake for dinos, but aren't?
#3 organization of the outline, Does this make sense? Is it going to be so big it's useless? My idea is that most users would go straight to the "types of Dinos" part, figure out from pics/vids which of "the big 3" they have, and there would be a list of recommended treatment methods at the bottom of each kind of dino, then jump down to those treatments, and decide which ones they want to attempt.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/127cKH5miePn4tsvzWNGNMuQivMh3fmxniPCVwLdF3ec/edit?usp=sharing

I'm gonna post the outline here just this once so people can see without clicking the link.


Introduction

What are Dinoflagellates?
What causes them?

Types of Dinoflagellates

The Big 3

-Ostreopsis Ovata
-Amphidinium Sp.
-Prorocentrum Sp.

Others Rarely Found in Aquaria

-Amphidinium Carterae
-Symbiodinium-like (no-ID)
-Ostreopsis Lenticularis
-Coolia Sp.
-Spherical quick-spinning (no-ID)


Sometimes confused for Dinoflagellates

-Cyanobacteria
-Diatoms
-Ciliates

Treatment Methods

Mechanical

-Siphoning
-UV
-Skimming
-Dino Scrubber Floss
-Sandbed Removal
-Microfiltration/Marine Snow Removal

Chemical

-GFO
-Metronidazole
-Peroxide
-Vibrant
-Dino-X
-Chemi-clean
-Bleach
-Fresh Water

Biological/Environmental

-Live Phyto
-Pods
-Macroalgae
-High Nitrate
-High Phosphate
-Sandbed Transplant
-Algae Scrubber

Other

-Lights out

Combination Protocols

-Dirty
-Clean
-Other

Prevention

[trmiv]

I'm done fighting mine. Tried vibrant, didn't work. Tried clean method, didn't work. Tried dirty method, didn't work. Tried live phyto and pods, didn't help. Tried a few other methods and they didn't help. At this point I'm tired of
spinning my wheels. Been fighting these things for 10 months. Most of my corals are dead and all my snails are dead. Luckily my fish are still totally healthy. So I've decided to transplant my fish and some rock to a 20 gallon, totally tear down my 120, kill and sterilize the rock and let it dry, then start over with that sterilized rock and some new live rock. Then after quarantining the fish I'll move them back. I'll get rid of the few remaining corals I have and start new. If my corals were still ok I'd hold on but really I'm fighting dinos in a mostly bare tank at this point so I don't see why I don't just start over.

[bertoni]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. :( Good luck with your restart!

[taricha]

Thanks for the link. I'm not sure mine looks like any of those three. I took a video at various magnifications if anyone wants to see (forgive my daughter watching Elf in the background :) ). Mine move more like bumper cars, they are all over the place

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2sikyw914qvezg7/AABPMQxjBRfk80cNAW0Sqfn5a?dl=0


and here is another pic i snapped

http://i.imgur.com/gXDEaZ6.jpg



Wow. Just went back and looked at your vids.
These were the first dinos I had in my tank. The co-occurred with amphidinium at same time in different spots on my sand.
Here they are in my tank.
https://youtu.be/HLakMav9rRw

I looked for months and saw no one else with this kind, but now you and another reefer have both posted these in 2 days.

Anyway, my best ID for these is Coolia monotonis. Some YouTube vids of Coolia that seem to match shape and motion pretty well.

Also here's a google animation I did of changing focal plane to look at structure. https://goo.gl/photos/xmpYxEUWjo9sSrin7

Have you done UV? I don't know if these go into water column at night.

[trmiv]

I haven't tried UV. They certainly lighten up on the rocks and sand at night so they may go partially into the water column.

[DNA]

I did try Vibrant for the tiny patches left and I'd say it has no effect on ostis.
That can not be said for my well thought out method that actually works.
No luck involved and I still feel like a superhero.

[taricha]

I haven't tried UV. They certainly lighten up on the rocks and sand at night so they may go partially into the water column.
Yeah, this thread is big and we've forgotten a lot of things that were effective for some cases.

If there's still anything in your tank that might be done in by dino toxin, run carbon and skim heavy just in case UV works.

[taricha]

I did try Vibrant for the tiny patches left and I'd say it has no effect on ostis.
That can not be said for my well thought out method that actually works.
No luck involved and I still feel like a superhero.
I think your sand bed removal, plus marine snow prevention is probably effective against several different kinds of dinos.
It would also increase effectiveness of other methods as well.
Sand beds offer mechanical protection to buried dino cysts, and likely a level of chemical protection from oxidizers, and other chemical treatments.
Twillard reported elsewhere that osti cysts in sand bed survived bleach(!) treatment.
We definitely need to have other people try your method.

(Personally, my tank would have to be pretty far gone before I'd pull my sand bed out.)

[koral_lover]

just spent the last 5 weeks doing large water changes with a shop/wet vac removing all my sand (crushed coral). As the last 10 or so page of this thread convinced me that removing my sandbed would be essential. Tons of detritus in there, etc. - but this did nothing to the dino population...if anything, the dinos are now all over the rock where as before they were staying in the sand more.

I am seriously shaken by all this - removing the sand was my last straw - this has taken so much of my time and caused a great deal of stress where my previous reef tanks had been so enjoyable. Not sure what to do at this point - tried dirty method, tried clean method, which seems to reduce them quite a bit, but corals pale and fish go hungry, so when you up the food some they explode again. I think my battle is over, and dinos have won. Maybe Ill try to see how bad I can get them in my tank for fun...

[karimwassef]

try ignoring the tank and letting algae take over. what do you have to lose? just continue dosing ca and alk and wait.

[ReefPharmer]

I may be lucky but I dosed 3ml/gal of h2o2 and the bloom has significantly subsided. I did this before the whole tank was taken over and it seems to have done the trick

[karimwassef]

I still believe the answer is to grow algae and feed it with enoug phosphate and nitrates to grab hold.

[Kurt03]

I still believe the answer is to grow algae and feed it with enoug phosphate and nitrates to grab hold.
This seemed to work for me. I had to dose po4 and no3 but once I got values up it seemed to be a turning point. Still takes a while. For me anyways... This tank is still up and running fairly smoothly now. No sign of Dino's and algae is under control..

[bertoni]

At least some people have been successful. Sigh! Others lose their tanks.

[Tom39]

I still believe the answer is to grow algae and feed it with enoug phosphate and nitrates to grab hold.
+1 With only 4 years in the hobby, my experience is limited but what I have found is that for me the addition of an algae turf scrubber has greatly improved the overall health of my tank and has also proved to be an effective tool at keeping nuisance algae at bay.

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[karimwassef]

I see dinos as an evolutionary branch that's contrary to the way healthy reefs operate today with algae as the natural scrubbers of waste.

So.. a dino infested tank has basically been bombed into the "stone age" and need to go back and change direction from the ground up. It starts with welcoming and cultivating algae as the normal base of a healthy reef ecosystem...

The good news is that hair algae is actually a capable contender when it gets the right food. Maybe adding iron to bolster that ecological path win would accelerate things?

Once algae starts to take hold, it's a matter of time.

[koral_lover]

try ignoring the tank and letting algae take over. what do you have to lose? just continue dosing ca and alk and wait.

Thanks for your input - I will try to see how much I can get them to explode...its so painful to watch...I can already hardly see the rock as its covered with a mix of dinos and cyano...going to feed the tank while gritting my teeth!

Will keep the thread updated as the bloom occurs. Dosing aminos, phyto, or any essential elements also appears to be like wildfire as the next day the amount of dinos have doubled!

[karimwassef]

actually.. try this.. stop dosing aminos and phyto or any essential elements...

you're trying to grow a garden before introducing higher level life.

Feed like you're cycling the tank.. if you have fish, feed them. The only thing to maintain in addition to normal fish food is alk and calcium.

[taricha]

What karim says...

Green is the enemy of Brown*

*Now, it takes a long time, but it's the only equilibrium I know how to create that keeps dinos away.

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[Kurt03]

I had to test daily and dose po4/no3 to get the algae started. Overfeeding by itself didn't do it for me. I was dumping an uncomfortable amount of food in the tank and it seemed to just fuel the Dino's, along with levels remaining undetectable. Each tank is different though, each with a missing Link causing a pro dino environment Imo.

[taricha]

I had to test daily and dose po4/no3 to get the algae started. Overfeeding by itself didn't do it for me. I was dumping an uncomfortable amount of food in the tank and it seemed to just fuel the Dino's, along with levels remaining undetectable. Each tank is different though, each with a missing Link causing a pro dino environment Imo.
Yep. Same. 3-5x as much food, dumped skimmate back in tank, added kno3 (+10ppm N) and high P miracle grow (+0.10 P) daily for weeks without signs of increasing nutrients.
Made me really question laws of conservation. I was exporting nothing, and could not figure where it was all going.

[karimwassef]

Good point. The infestation starts because of a unique chemical imbalance (usually driven by our own virulent attempts to eradicate algae :) ).

In my case, I use Lanthanum to eliminate phosphates. For others, it's overindulging carbon dosing eliminating nitrates... point is we went too far in our zealous endeavors and now we need to reset.

To right the ship, we need to know which chemical is missing that algae needs & feed it. I went so far as to consider adding Miracle Grow right down to looking at the toxicity of the metals in it. Maybe that's too much :D

Today, I'm proud of my massive waste collecting sediment filter and algae scrubber tank:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/6A1D4A56-6D9C-4852-B0A4-E1EBD517E95C_zpsytpo6lwa.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/6A1D4A56-6D9C-4852-B0A4-E1EBD517E95C_zpsytpo6lwa.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6A1D4A56-6D9C-4852-B0A4-E1EBD517E95C_zpsytpo6lwa.jpg"></a>

And I even keep track of my CO2 to make sure my precious green garden is satisfied without robbing carbonates from my SPS:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/2E40D3F8-10A1-4E1F-8173-B99A4A5E1794_zpsiyjmrx3d.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/2E40D3F8-10A1-4E1F-8173-B99A4A5E1794_zpsiyjmrx3d.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2E40D3F8-10A1-4E1F-8173-B99A4A5E1794_zpsiyjmrx3d.jpg"></a>

and just to stay in balance, I don't even throw my algae away! I feed it back to my DT fish:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CABDC418-1517-4734-8E0E-922C04BBEA7B_zpsrmtsbddb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CABDC418-1517-4734-8E0E-922C04BBEA7B_zpsrmtsbddb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CABDC418-1517-4734-8E0E-922C04BBEA7B_zpsrmtsbddb.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/IMG_7234_zpsime9xskt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/IMG_7234_zpsime9xskt.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_7234_zpsime9xskt.jpg"></a>

Like the Irish guy on the Scott's commercial says: "Feed your lawn! FEED it!"

[jweist]

Some people believe that when you have a clean tank and rocks, any excess nutrients will get sucked into the rocks. That is if you don't have any other inorganic filtration. I think that might be what's going on. It would take a while for the rocks to reach saturated levels in order for them to leak back enough nutrients into the water to grow algae on the rocks.

What do you guys think? I just feel like there is no way dinos could be eating all these excess nutrients.

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[karimwassef]

I think that's a myth. Rocks are sources of nutrients, not sinks. That's because diffusion inside rock (even porous rock) is so slow that it doesn't really matter. Now sand, on the other hand, has significant impact IMO.

The exception in rock would be if there is substantial surface growth like sponges, tunicates, worms, pods, starfish, etc... those could be absorbing waste and food if the rock is established. But new rock or land based rock wouldn't be much of a sink to nutrients. Much greater likelihood to leaching out instead.

The sand needs agitation to be healthy & that's usually best performed by worms (again IMO). If the sand bed fauna dies and the process of nutrient uptake diminishes, it could likewise become a source of waste. If that waste stays trapped very close to the sand surface, that zone may not be conducive to algal growth. Algae likes high flow high light.

Dinos, in contrast, don't need flow and can thrive at low light. So a dead sandbed could create a local food supply that feeds dinos before the nutrients can get up to the rocks where algae can prosper.

So I would add "flow" to the remedy above. Keep the nutrients suspended up where algae can have at it.

[jason2459]

It's well known and studied how much carbon, phosphorous, etc are absorbed ("sink") by calcium carbonate rock or substrate. Not a myth.

[karimwassef]

For reference, my sediment filter is fed by a circulating flow from two Jebao 15000s. One in the aux sump puming up and one in the tank itself creating a massive loop. That means that I have nearly 6000 gal/hr in a circulating vortex in a 55gal tub that's 6" below 500W of a distributed LED plate. Algae (and unfortunately Xenia) love it.

[karimwassef]

It's well known and studied how much carbon, phosphorous, etc are absorbed ("sink") by calcium carbonate rock or substrate. Not a myth.

I wanted to believe that and I couldn't find the evidence for it. To be clear, I believed it for years before being challenged on a thread here. Try and find it... I couldn't substantiate it. Do a reefcentral search- maybe you'll be more successful than I was.

[jason2459]

I wanted to believe that and I couldn't find the evidence for it. To be clear, I believed it for years before being challenged on a thread here. Try and find it... I couldn't substantiate it. Do a reefcentral search- maybe you'll be more successful than I was.

No need to search reefcentral. Chemistry of the Sea by Pilson.

It's an equilibrium thing. So, can't say it will or will not release or attract anything right away.

[RWB3]

Is what i have dino? What can i do to treat it that will not hurt my BTAs? Thanks in Advance!

[jweist]

I sure if you were to ask Santa Monica he would have 5 or 6 scholarly articles on this subject.

But I think it's also proven with the scrubber only users out there. What happens is people don't change their CFL light bulbs every 3 months. Because it's still growing green and there is no algae in the tank everything seems fine. But really the scrubber is way under powered and some or most of the nutreints are being sucked into the rocks. It's not noticeable until it reaches saturation and dt algae blooms.

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[koral_lover]

what is really difficult for me to understand is I am dumping quite a food in the tank, skimmer is off, and dinos are everywhere - yet my Chaeto starts turning white and dies on me....I use to double the size of cheato in a couple weeks no problem....how can I get the chaeto or other algae to grow? Should I cut my display lights down to a couple hours a day? I still have a few sps holding on, so don't want to get to crazy, but I want to give chaeto and other algaes a chance to compete....fuge is currently lit 24/7

[jweist]

Well it might be a situation similar to a scrubber that's not properly built. That is that it's not doing much filtering. I think the dinos, rock and sand are eating up the nutrients and your Chaeto is dying. It's being over powered by light compared to the amount of nutrients it's receiving.

Try to increace your flow around the chaeto. This will deliver more nutreints to it. Also turn down the number of hours the fuge light is on. This might help.

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[bertoni]

I agree that the dinoflagellates might be outcompeting the Chaetomorpha for nutrients. The dinoflagellates might be producing a toxin that affect the alga, as well. It's hard to be sure, but problems like that are common. You might consider trying fresh carbon to see whether that helps, but that often seems to be a losing battle.

[karimwassef]

if it's well known and studied, post the link or references. Diffusion is very slow and doesn't go very deep because the water doesn't go deep. There's no transport mechanism deeper than the surface few mms.

I make my own rocks. So, to promote diffusion through the rock and into a denitrification zone, I suggested a sponge center core within a thin rock shell... uncle objected to the fundamentals:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2406583&highlight=diffusion

[taricha]

Mmm.... Had an idea for an experiment.
During phase when we are heavy feeding, it would be nice to know what dinos are actually good at uptaking and removing from our water.
Take a couple hundred mL or so of dinos + water. Microfilter out a few mL with no dinos, and N+P test the water. Then lyse or liquify the dino cells somehow (peroxide? FW? Freeze/thaw? boil?) and N+P test the dino soup. Or better yet, a side by side Triton test for water with dinos filtered out, vs dino soup water. Would love to know what elements (if any) dinos can actually deprive our tank of.

Tons of experiments on dino composition, but none under our tank conditions while dirty method.

[bertoni]

Some people believe that when you have a clean tank and rocks, any excess nutrients will get sucked into the rocks.
I'm not sure what is meant here. It's not making any sense to me yet. I agree that diffusion won't do the job. Bulk flow will move water through the sand to some degree, but only phosphate will bind to the sand.

[jason2459]

if it's well known and studied, post the link or references. Diffusion is very slow and doesn't go very deep because the water doesn't go deep. There's no transport mechanism deeper than the surface few mms.

I make my own rocks. So, to promote diffusion through the rock and into a denitrification zone, I suggested a sponge center core within a thin rock shell... uncle objected to the fundamentals:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2406583&highlight=diffusion
Is that to me? I did post my reference. A well published and peer reviewed resource and a very good read. I highly recommend it. I'm not sure you are even responding to what I stated.

[bertoni]

I think he's referring to the post that I quoted.

[taricha]

Personally during my phase where I was dumping nutrients in and getting almost no algae. When I found the missing biomatter, it was in the form of 100s of grams spread between detritus in sand bed, asterina stars, micro brittle stars, and most of all - bristleworms.
Algae growth finally did take off, but it lagged the nutrient input by weeks.

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[jweist]

I'm not sure what is meant here. It's not making any sense to me yet. I agree that diffusion won't do the job. Bulk flow will move water through the sand to some degree, but only phosphate will bind to the sand.
The point is... if people are dumping in all kinds of nutrients into a tank how do the nutrients remain low? I just feel like there is no way dinos can be using all of these extra nutrients. So where do these extra nutrients go?

[bertoni]

The phosphate can be removed by skimming or with a binder like GFO. Live rock and sand should be able to bind phosphate for some finite period of time until the matrix is at equilibrium with the water column, although calcification might continue to incorporate some phosphate into coralline and coral skeletons. Nitrate can be removed by conversion into nitrogen gas, and skimming can remove fixed nitrogen before it becomes nitrate.

[jweist]

The phosphate can be removed by skimming or with a binder like GFO. Live rock and sand should be able to bind phosphate for some finite period of time until the matrix is at equilibrium with the water column, although calcification might continue to incorporate some phosphate into coralline and coral skeletons. Nitrate can be removed by conversion into nitrogen gas, and skimming can remove fixed nitrogen before it becomes nitrate.
OK. How does a skimmer remove nitrate and phosphates? It might take the food out that would eventually break down into n/p. but it would not remove them directly. So again, where do all these nutrients go when someone is not using any inorganic filtration?

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[karimwassef]

I ordered the Pilson book from Amazon. I've read lots of theory, but no work with data showing how it work (or even if it works).

Randy mentions live rock and sand as denitrators - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

he references it as nitrate generation on the surface of rock and sand can help it diffuse into the rock and sand for denitrification. That goes back to my discussion of the sand bed surface as a potential battle zone for dinos vs. algae where the dinos have the advantage.

but I don't see any supporting evidence showing depth of penetration of different elements inside rocks.

Equilibrium is fine, but that's a very slow process and through a very thin shell of rock.

It wouldn't be that hard - put a rock (one where a portion has been removed to test for nutrient content) in a controlled tank with very high nitrate and phosphate and measure the rate at which those elements are removed... and then remove the rock and cross-section to measure the nutrient content at different depths...

data...

It doesn't matter for the purpose of this thread - the question here is how to promote algae uptake of nutrients before dinos take it up. Looks like flow is one key variable in addition to the replenishing the missing nutrient (phosphate or nitrate).

[jason2459]

Awesome, glad you got it. Most excellent book I hope you'll like. I assume you got the latest 2013 revision.

[karimwassef]

just says second edition

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0132589710

[jason2459]

OK. How does a skimmer remove nitrate and phosphates? It might take the food out that would eventually break down into n/p. but it would not remove them directly. So again, where do all these nutrients go when someone is not using any inorganic filtration?

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Considering a skimmer will remove anything that will attach to or be pushed up by a bubble this will account for DOCs before they break down and organisms that have consumed those nutrients like bacteria. I've also seen many micro fauna swept up by the foam like various pods and even worms like bristle worms as well as things like algae.

Otherwise, the nutrients will be picked up by a lot of things like binding to CaCO3 surfaces or consumed by a myriad types of life like bacteria and the diversity of surfaces coated with periphyton. Don't forget the life you can see like your corals with the dinoflagellets in them.

Then any other filtration one may have especially GAC which is shown to be much more efficient then a skimmer. Even GFO will bind more then just phosphates.

[jason2459]

just says second edition

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0132589710
The one you linked to says 1st eddition. The second 2013 edition add more studies into the carbon cycle among other research updates.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00E6T5N9Y/ref=pd_aw_sbs_14_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KPECGVM5C5EW4YH36SBD&dpPl=1&dpID=51ftxnhPr6L

[karimwassef]

I bought the softcover for $30. The pictures says second edition, but there's a little note that says that the picture is of the hardcover that's only available in hardcover for $70.

In pursuit of knowledge and avoiding the wrath of my reef-hating wife, I'll stick with the first edition as a compromise. :D

[bertoni]

OK. How does a skimmer remove nitrate and phosphates?
I should have been more precise and said that the skimmer will remove organics before they can break down into nitrate and phosphate in the water column.

[jason2459]

I bought the softcover for $30. The pictures says second edition, but there's a little note that says that the picture is of the hardcover that's only available in hardcover for $70.

In pursuit of knowledge and avoiding the wrath of my reef-hating wife, I'll stick with the first edition as a compromise. :D
Will still be a great read. If I had a hardcopy I would loan it out to you. I only have it in my kindle. Can I share that with another kindle user?

[jweist]

I get that there are things in the tank that will use N and P but it still seems like a ridiculous amout of nutrients that are not being accounted for. I'm wondering more why algae doesn't show up right away when people are trying the dirty method.

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[jason2459]

I get that there are things in the tank that will use N and P but it still seems like a ridiculous amout of nutrients that are not being accounted for. I'm wondering more why algae doesn't show up right away when people are trying the dirty method.

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Oh man, you have got to look under a microscope. It's everywhere along with every other nuisances you can think of like cyano. Periphyton is an all encompassing mix of life. Even if you never see it in full bloom, it's there.

[jweist]

No argument here about periphyton being there. I know it can and will suck up nutrients.

So then you think we just have to feed until the things in our tanks that suck up nutrients can't suck up any more and then green hair algae will start to apear?

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[karimwassef]

No argument here about periphyton being there. I know it can and will suck up nutrients.

So then you think we just have to feed until the things in our tanks that suck up nutrients can't suck up any more and then green hair algae will start to apear?

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I don't think so. It's not about the other parts of the tank absorbing nutrients. It's the dinos being able to outcompete in a specific chemistry and regions of the tank.

Most people cannot keep algae out of their tanks. It takes an imbalance for dinos to take over. The remedy is to back up and add enough nutrients, light, and flow to get algae back in the game. It's not about saturating the tank to the point that there's something left over for the algae. If dinos are present, they will simply consume and grow faster, releasing toxins and killing everything.

Either N, or P or both are too low. Flow is too low. or the algae-friendly zones aren't getting enough light... or a combination of those.

I still think that there are some elements that are more friendly to algae.. Iron? Zinc?

[jason2459]

No argument here about periphyton being there. I know it can and will suck up nutrients.

So then you think we just have to feed until the things in our tanks that suck up nutrients can't suck up any more and then green hair algae will start to apear?

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I don't believe in the current discussion. [emoji4]

I gave my input on what I do which is nothing at all above and beyond what I normally do and patience. And I don't think any one way is applicable to all types.

[koral_lover]

so if I were to do another 3 day lights out, at the end of the 3rd day, do you think I would be able to measure any phosphate or nitrate? For some unknown reason, I can never get a measurable reading of either on this tank, no matter how much I feed. I always assumed the dinos were just too efficient at uptaking them to get a reading...

[karimwassef]

dinos can survive in the dark. Many are autotrophic or heterotrophic

[DNA]

I am seriously shaken by all this - removing the sand was my last straw

Hey guys, It's me, DNA!

I'm the one that has had dinos for a decade and spent ridiculous amounts of time researching and implementing various methods on my own tank. I'm absolutely sure none even come close to have put the same effort into this than I have.

Here you are holding a working solution in your hands from the best source available and refuse to use it.

I swear this is my final post here until...

[Hefner413]

Wow... this thread is long. I read some of the first few pages and got some info. I also have been having a problem with what I assume are Dinos. It is like dust when I hit it with a baster. Lights off for 3 days seemed to clear it but it gradually returned despite lower light schedule. First, can someone confirm this is Dinos?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170328/793ceed244d548350b37994f2bb693eb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170328/d04ee94367b7b7fd4d84ffac1a8ef2bc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170328/0b4e24d855ee30dec34a2202783c6a02.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170328/d3770419e048e7a0b04a83dd849d7d8a.jpg

Next, I've restarted my lights out. Previously it was covering almost all my zoas and it seemed to be killing them. When I did my lights out and blasted them off with a baster, my zoas returned. So again, I'm trying to get ahead of this stuff. Where would you guys turn next? Am I reading right that it's best to get rid of the sand bed? Most of mine seem to reside on my rocks and seem to especially light the more algae ridden rock. I'd think that I need to get this rock somewhat cleaned of algae to limit the Dinos from living in it. I was going to consider restocking my CUC, but then read that Dino toxin kills snails. Not sure where to go next. Thanks for any help.

[karimwassef]

technically, the only confirmation would come under a microscope. You need to take a picture and see if they match. There are several species of dinos...

but ... that looks like dinos to me. :(

most telling is the complete absence of algae anywhere.

[karimwassef]

get a UV sterilizer and run low flow through it and start an ATS and feed it.. that's what I would do if I were in your shoes.

DNA will tell you to remove all your sand and start over with a bare bottom after scrubbing your rocks too (jumping ahead :D).

[bertoni]

At least some of that looks more like cyanobacteria to me. Have you checked the nutrient levels?

[bgoldb21]

DNA is correct in my opinion. Removing the sand bed worked for me. I may reintroduce crushed coral at some point but for now, it feels good to have this under control and to see my corals growing.


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[karimwassef]

I remember cyano and dino working together.. but that was like 10 pages ago.

[Hefner413]

Thanks for the likely confirmation. I need to get ahold of a microscope and see for sure. From reading, another confirmation is that when lights are out overnight, it seems to dissipate. Then once lights go on, it visibly gets more dense as the evening goes on. I know I have a spot or two of cyano, but the rest seems like Dinos I think.

A quick background story: I've had this 29g biocube set up for almost 2 years and am just now having the outbreak. 12 yrs in the hobby and first I've had an issue. My levels: SG 1.026, ph8.2, NO3 and NH3 are both 0 as always. Phosphates also zero. There's only the maroon clown, so very little daily pellet feeding.

Possible issues that started this: my RODI unit had long been overdue on DI media replacement. Plus my lights were the original lights and thus needed changed out big time.

So I changed out my RODI filters and got a TDS meter (didn't check before changing them) and my new water is 0 TDS. My lights have been changed also. My lights were then decreased from 6 hrs a day to only 4.5 hrs a day now. I also did some drastic water changes... A bit much at 80%... But I wanted to get any possible contaminants from the prior bad RODI water. That probably made the Dinos worse.

I will purchase a UV sterilizer. That definitely makes sense. I had an algae scrubber under my 180 for a long time a while back, but I gave up because of the maintenance required. I don't think I have space around my 29 that my wife wouldn't kill me for setting one up.

Is there still advise out there to do H202? I have a small RBTA, but I'd replace him if i knew the peroxide would help.

[karimwassef]

I tried peroxide and it was a temporary fix. I even had it dosing all day long and that was better, but not enough.

It's like a sickness and you need to consistently break it up (UV) and then have competition that isn't susceptible to the impact of UV like algae. The algae also needs to remove the dead tissue as it breaks down into N and P. Algae is your friend now.

[karimwassef]

by the way - don't go fancy on expensive UV equipment. It's a temporary tool at best and they all do about the same thing. I broke my expensive UV and just got a cheap Jebao 55 and it's fine.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71WzFhMx55L._SL1500_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-CW-55-Clarifier-Sterilizer-Aquarium/dp/B00K1HHG9U

I know this looks massive on a 29, but you want a lot of power and real low flow. this isn't a fast fix... it's mutliple days of blasting them a little at a time.

[taricha]

We'd all bet on dinos, but aren't sure without microscope.
Pic 3 looks like a cyano/dino party. But color in another person's tank pics can be deceiving.
You say "dust" when blowing of rocks rather than hunks or sheets like cyano.
Diatoms don't usually plague like that, but been wrong before. Suck up a bit of it, and put in a beaker, stir to mix. If it's dinos, it'll reassemble into a clump in minutes.

It's not ostreopsis - no long strings/bubbles in high flow.
So is it amphidinium or prorocentrum?
I'd lean prorocentrum over amphidinium because of preference of rocks over sand, and your description of it covering/killing zoas.

Support UV as a first measure, and any thing you do to get rid of dinos would be more effective without sand.

[Hefner413]

Man... you guys know your stuff. I ordered an 13W submersible UV sterilizer on amazon yesterday and should be here soon. Given my lack of sump, that seemed to be the best option. I'll try the suction / agitation / observation method after work. I'm glad to hear it doesn't sound like ostreopsis, from what I gather that's a bad one. I'm also looking into converting the mid back section of the biocube 29 into an algae scrubber. Looks like some success with others doing this. And suctioning out the sand.... man, I just might have to do it, but it sure is bothering me to think to do so. So much of my reading years ago focused on the benefits of the sand bed.

[karimwassef]

Unless you have worms, your sand bed isn't very beneficial imo. I love sand and kept mine but I also had enough life to keep it healthy.

Do you have a skimmer? The dead tissues from the uv need to be exported or consumed.

[taricha]

13W submersible UV sterilizer on amazon yesterday and should be here soon. I'll try the suction / agitation / observation method after work. I'm also looking into converting the mid back section of the biocube 29 into an algae scrubber.
All good. Any chance you could get yours under a microscope?

So much of my reading years ago focused on the benefits of the sand bed.
Agree w/ karim. If your nutrient input is low, and you have dinos, there's basically no biodiversity in the sand but dinos anyway.
With an algae scrubber online or higher nutrient input, that might change in the future.

[taricha]

Ideas for distinguishing the big 3 dinos (90% of all cases) without a microscope
Ostreopsis Ovata: Long strings (>1/2 inch) higher in the tank in the highest flow available surfaces, bubbles.

two speculative ways that I think should work to distinguish between amphidinium operculatum(?) and prorocentrum lima(?) when presenting on sand/rocks. Someone would need a microscope to confirm these tests are valid.

Macro Test: Place a small amount of macroalgae (Chaeto best?) on the brown patch: Prorocentrum should colonize the macroalgae happily - does so in the wild. Amphidinium that I've seen has always stayed locked to the sand/rocks/cyano even when surrounded by macroalgae.

Snail death test: get a dozen small snails (cerith best choice?) and place on the brown patches. Never seen snail death reported with amphidinium, but often is with prorocentrum. (does prorocentrum ever show up in our tanks with no or low-toxin?)

[rog2961]

My dinos always come back once the rodi filters start going bad, seems if I have anything over 10ppm problems start. We have well water here that is pretty high in iron. The higher the ppms get, the more dinos there are. Ive been running a huge 100g chaeto fuge for a while and it hasnt really been a problem. I also dont use a skimmer.

If I get them again, i think ill try UV. Sounds like a lot of people just dont know how to use it properly.

[mandrieu]

My dinos always come back once the rodi filters start going bad, seems if I have anything over 10ppm problems start. We have well water here that is pretty high in iron. The higher the ppms get, the more dinos there are. Ive been running a huge 100g chaeto fuge for a while and it hasnt really been a problem. I also dont use a skimmer.

If I get them again, i think ill try UV. Sounds like a lot of people just dont know how to use it properly.

And what's the proper way to use UV?

[karimwassef]

high intensity, very low flow. The vendors don't help since they spec the maximum flow through their UV sterilizers but that's completely useless for eliminating real pathogens. You want to run down in the 200-300 gph rate if you're at or under 50W but they advertise 5000 gph capable...

That might be technically true - that the device can handle that flow rate. But it would serve no function at that rate at 50W. The lower the power, the slower the flow rate needs to be to make sure the UV has a chance to sterilize the water.

[rog2961]

karimwassef how do you keep all the algae in your sump from clogging the return pipe?

[meegwell]

Ideas for distinguishing the big 3 dinos (90% of all cases) without a microscope
Ostreopsis Ovata: Long strings (>1/2 inch) higher in the tank in the highest flow available surfaces, bubbles.

two speculative ways that I think should work to distinguish between amphidinium operculatum(?) and prorocentrum lima(?) when presenting on sand/rocks. Someone would need a microscope to confirm these tests are valid.

Macro Test: Place a small amount of macroalgae (Chaeto best?) on the brown patch: Prorocentrum should colonize the macroalgae happily - does so in the wild. Amphidinium that I've seen has always stayed locked to the sand/rocks/cyano even when surrounded by macroalgae.

Snail death test: get a dozen small snails (cerith best choice?) and place on the brown patches. Never seen snail death reported with amphidinium, but often is with prorocentrum. (does prorocentrum ever show up in our tanks with no or low-toxin?)

What about the snotty strings that are 3-6" long blowin' and dancin' in the flow (brown/green)?

[meegwell]

I did try Vibrant for the tiny patches left and I'd say it has no effect on ostis.
That can not be said for my well thought out method that actually works.
No luck involved and I still feel like a superhero.


DNA - I know you said it's your last post here so maybe this question is for others...I have read a lot but not all...and I read about the method that worked for you.

Has anyone else had success with DNAs method (marine snow removal)?


FWIW I got to mine by what seems to be a common route: tank is 5-6 years old - Had a cyano breakout - used chemi - that worked but then I couldn't skim for a while but was ignorant so I kept up feeding then had green hair - Ni an Po where high understandably - started NoPox which brought parameters in check and eradicated green hair and then within a day or so - viola! brown nasty stringy snotty crap developing everywhere - parameters still in check near zero ni and po.

I am at the beginning of the battle - have long since had a minimal/shallow sand bed so I will remove the rest of that as was planned anyway. Plenty of crap settled all over my rocks. My fuge is currently sand and rocks and dark.

crossing my fingers....

[taricha]

What about the snotty strings that are 3-6" long blowin' and dancin' in the flow (brown/green)?
High flow long strings, bet on ostreopsis.

[meegwell]

High flow long strings, bet on ostreopsis.


meant to say brown/grey not green

[karimwassef]

karimwassef how do you keep all the algae in your sump from clogging the return pipe?

I don't have algae in my sump. I have a dedicated algae tank that runs side by side with my DT. Unfortunately, my turf algae is losing the battle to macroalgae and Xenia now. It's ok but I really believe that turf is essential.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/068EB74E-0791-46C0-BA1A-E76220EE7FA5_zps208hsibl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/068EB74E-0791-46C0-BA1A-E76220EE7FA5_zps208hsibl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 068EB74E-0791-46C0-BA1A-E76220EE7FA5_zps208hsibl.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/E4871824-117B-4DE6-A5FE-97656F999BE3_zpsx7muobgl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/E4871824-117B-4DE6-A5FE-97656F999BE3_zpsx7muobgl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo E4871824-117B-4DE6-A5FE-97656F999BE3_zpsx7muobgl.jpg"></a>
When I did have turf in my sump, I grew it on sheets like an algae scrubber. That kept the algae attached until I removed it.

Here's my current scrubber

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2631042

[taricha]

My dinos always come back once the rodi filters start going bad, seems if I have anything over 10ppm problems start. We have well water here that is pretty high in iron. The higher the ppms get, the more dinos there are. Ive been running a huge 100g chaeto fuge for a while and it hasnt really been a problem. I also dont use a skimmer.

If I get them again, i think ill try UV. Sounds like a lot of people just dont know how to use it properly.

Awesome. My experience also found iron as a likely dino limiter, and macroalgae (chaeto/caulerpa) as a way to regulate it. Thumbs up on UV.

meant to say brown/grey not green

Thanks. I just assumed you and I had different definitions of green :-)

[mandrieu]

Awesome. My experience also found iron as a likely dino limiter, and macroalgae (chaeto/caulerpa) as a way to regulate it. Thumbs up on UV.


So, you're saying iron concentration is a limiting factor for dinos? Are there other known limiting factors you are aware of?

[taricha]

So, you're saying iron concentration is a limiting factor for dinos? Are there other known limiting factors you are aware of?
Sorry. This got long.
DNA demonstrated using low Alk to halt dinos. (And everything else) There are lots of limiting factors: B12 (other vitamins?), iron, other trace metals, N, P, alk, light...
Problem is finding something that dinos need that they can be deprived of, and outcompeted for on an ongoing basis in a reef setting.
Alk, N, P, light are problematic either because dinos are just as good as our other tank inhabitants at uptake of scarce amounts of these, or they can wait out low levels seemingly forever, or we just can't let our tanks stay low for long enough to hurt dinos.

Here's things people do that they report re-invigorate a stalled dino bloom. Indicates dinos probably ran out of something, but grew when it was available again: and what might have been provided...
Water changes: iron, trace metals.
Aminos, Fuel, coral frenzy, etc: vitamins, B12, trace metals.
Sea veggies seaweed: lotsa iron, trace metals, vitamins
GFO: iron, though barely any soluble.

Cyano also makes B12, captures N and maybe iron - so its cozy association with dinos might be more about scarce resources than coincidence.
I've hunted through bunches of triton reports of people's salt mix when they said water changes caused dino re-bloom, and there is no common element, so it is probably something where biologically useful amounts are below the triton detection limits. iron fits that description, but so might other trace metals.
Also B12 is made around cobalt, so there's some overlap in the vitamin/trace metal labeling.

Macroalgae has iron, trace metals, vitamins etc. It needs them, and seems to be good at getting them. It's quite possible that this competition for trace elements/vitamins is the other factor (predation being big also) that keeps an algae heavy tank away from dino infestation.
In my tank I grew tons of macro - chaeto & caulerpa - and amphidinium dinos disappeared. I threw in some trace elements with iron and dinos made a modest recovery.
It would be instructive to look at published growth media that scientists use to culture our specific dino species. might be able to eliminate some candidates that way.

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[Thor2j]

We'd all bet on dinos, but aren't sure without microscope.
Pic 3 looks like a cyano/dino party. But color in another person's tank pics can be deceiving.
You say "dust" when blowing of rocks rather than hunks or sheets like cyano.
Diatoms don't usually plague like that, but been wrong before. Suck up a bit of it, and put in a beaker, stir to mix. If it's dinos, it'll reassemble into a clump in minutes.

It's not ostreopsis - no long strings/bubbles in high flow.
So is it amphidinium or prorocentrum?
I'd lean prorocentrum over amphidinium because of preference of rocks over sand, and your description of it covering/killing zoas.

Support UV as a first measure, and any thing you do to get rid of dinos would be more effective without sand.
My prorocentrum is sand only.

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[mandrieu]

Sorry. This got long.
DNA demonstrated using low Alk to halt dinos. (And everything else) There are lots of limiting factors: B12 (other vitamins?), iron, other trace metals, N, P, alk, light...
Problem is finding something that dinos need that they can be deprived of, and outcompeted for on an ongoing basis in a reef setting.
Alk, N, P, light are problematic either because dinos are just as good as our other tank inhabitants at uptake of scarce amounts of these, or they can wait out low levels seemingly forever, or we just can't let our tanks stay low for long enough to hurt dinos.

Here's things people do that they report re-invigorate a stalled dino bloom. Indicates dinos probably ran out of something, but grew when it was available again: and what might have been provided...
Water changes: iron, trace metals.
Aminos, Fuel, coral frenzy, etc: vitamins, B12, trace metals.
Sea veggies seaweed: lotsa iron, trace metals, vitamins
GFO: iron, though barely any soluble.

Cyano also makes B12, captures N and maybe iron - so its cozy association with dinos might be more about scarce resources than coincidence.
I've hunted through bunches of triton reports of people's salt mix when they said water changes caused dino re-bloom, and there is no common element, so it is probably something where biologically useful amounts are below the triton detection limits. iron fits that description, but so might other trace metals.
Also B12 is made around cobalt, so there's some overlap in the vitamin/trace metal labeling.

Macroalgae has iron, trace metals, vitamins etc. It needs them, and seems to be good at getting them. It's quite possible that this competition for trace elements/vitamins is the other factor (predation being big also) that keeps an algae heavy tank away from dino infestation.
In my tank I grew tons of macro - chaeto & caulerpa - and amphidinium dinos disappeared. I threw in some trace elements with iron and dinos made a modest recovery.
It would be instructive to look at published growth media that scientists use to culture our specific dino species. might be able to eliminate some candidates that way.

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Yep. Thanks. What you describe is consistent with what I've seen in my tank and read other's cases.

[ajm83]

What level of magnification is need to identify between species of dino?

I've successfully treated them some months ago with Dino X, now I have them again from a frag except they are not affected by Dino X this time. :(

[taricha]

What level of magnification is need to identify between species of dino?

I've successfully treated them some months ago with Dino X, now I have them again from a frag except they are not affected by Dino X this time. :(

40x is enough. Would like to know about the kind that Dino-X did work on as well as the kind it isn't working on.

[ajm83]

40x is enough. Would like to know about the kind that Dino-X did work on as well as the kind it isn't working on.

Dino X was so effective, literally just two doses and the tank was (visually) 100% clean again. I'd been syphoning them out every day for months before that with no effect. Also tried low nutrients, high nutrients, pH changes, 8 day complete blackout etc etc

Unfortunately I didn't keep a sample, and I'm not sure what I can tell you other than:

They formed long strings
They killed/damaged corals when they touched them
They killed snails/inverts when they ate them
It was the colour of diatoms but broadly cyanobacteria like in texture.
It passed the kitchen paper shake test (re-formed strings)

Not sure what else I can tell you.


The second lot came in on a frag plug. Due to my own bad timing, my Q tank was full of fish, so I took a chance, dipped the coral then put it straight in the DT.
Next night, dinos on the plug appeared, night after that it's all over the sand. Week later it's all over the rocks.

I've 4 doses in with Dino X and this time it has done nothing at all. Could be a different species or maybe just different conditions.

Anyhow I will hopefully be picking up a microscope tonight and if I do, I will try and grab some pics. :)

[taricha]

Dino X was so effective, literally just two doses and the tank was (visually) 100% clean again.

Unfortunately I didn't keep a sample, and I'm not sure what I can tell you other than:

They formed long strings
They killed/damaged corals when they touched them
They killed snails/inverts when they ate them
It was the colour of diatoms but broadly cyanobacteria like in texture.
It passed the kitchen paper shake test (re-formed strings)

Not sure what else I can tell you.


:-) that checks every single box for ostreopsis.
Now let's see this new critter.

[Hefner413]

Ok... Day 3 of lights out. UV sterilizer arrived today and it's running. I got this one: https://www.amazon.com/SunSun-JUP-23-Sterilizer-Submersible-Pump/product-reviews/B008AZV7GI. Seems decent. Hopefully flow rate isn't too fast.

I'm converting the mid back section of my biocube into a algae scrubber. Lights arrive today.

LASTLY... Finally found my son's microscope. Not like what we had in college, I I can at least say I SEE those stinkin little ovals swimming all over the place. The issue though... I can't say which dino it is??!! The three u guys referenced all seem to be oval-shaped? So how do I know...?

[taricha]

Algaeid.com for pics and vids. Movement really helps.
Put smart phone up to lens and post pics. And we'll give a 2nd opinion.

[VGT]

So, I had some dinos, but they weren't the biggest problem. I was getting ready to wage war on bryopsis, and had planned a 3 day blackout to hit the dinos at the end, seems I won't need to, Dinos are gone, and timeline below.

Day 0 - Added UV sterilizer (high flow), Removed Carbon, Large dose of GFO, turned off skimmer
Day 0 - Dosed Fluconozole
Day 1 - Dinos fading
Day 2 - Continued Dino Fading
Day 3 - Nearly no evidence of Dino, blew remants off all rocks. Cyano starting to appear on sand, turned off GFO Reactor
Day 4 - No new Dino Growth, Cyano worsening
Day 5 - Chemiclean, GFO still off.
Day 6 - Bryopsis gone. Cyano fading, no new dinos.

Planning water change on Day 8, which will be dosed with Fluco to maintain concentration, will restart skimmer, carbon reactor, and UV. Large water change on Day 14 planned.

[karimwassef]

Doesn't fluconazole kill all worms?

[VGT]

Doesn't fluconazole kill all worms?

Nope

[karimwassef]

what impact does it have on reef life? are you saying that it kills dinos and bryopsis but that no effect on anything else?

not doubting your feedback by the way, just want to confirm what you're saying.

[taricha]

Found your pics in other thread. I see bryopsis. Got pics of your dinos, or at least info about how they presented: bubbles, strings, high flow, rocks, sand, algae etc?

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[karimwassef]

doing some research on it - the descriptions say that it works on

Ichthyophonus hoferi
Saprolegnia
Bryopsis

If we add Dinos (should identify which one), and no impact on other life, that would be good to confirm.

[Hefner413]

In human medicine I write for fluconazole all the time (an example is brand name Diflucan). It's an antifungal. I'm somewhat confused on application here, but assume there is.

[Hefner413]

The more I think about it... I assume fungi and algae could be treated similarly.

[agv180]

Hi, at what concentration do we use fluconazole? Does it affect the tridacnas and scoly?

So, I had some dinos, but they weren't the biggest problem. I was getting ready to wage war on bryopsis, and had planned a 3 day blackout to hit the dinos at the end, seems I won't need to, Dinos are gone, and timeline below.

Day 0 - Added UV sterilizer (high flow), Removed Carbon, Large dose of GFO, turned off skimmer
Day 0 - Dosed Fluconozole
Day 1 - Dinos fading
Day 2 - Continued Dino Fading
Day 3 - Nearly no evidence of Dino, blew remants off all rocks. Cyano starting to appear on sand, turned off GFO Reactor
Day 4 - No new Dino Growth, Cyano worsening
Day 5 - Chemiclean, GFO still off.
Day 6 - Bryopsis gone. Cyano fading, no new dinos.

Planning water change on Day 8, which will be dosed with Fluco to maintain concentration, will restart skimmer, carbon reactor, and UV. Large water change on Day 14 planned.

[VGT]

I have no idea whether the fluconazole affected my dinos, or if it was the UV sterilizer, or if it was swapping the carbon for high GFO. Just sharing my experience. I didn't take any pictures of the dino, but it was the stringy kind with bubbles in it (it looked like the picture below).

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/mantisfreak/Fish027.jpg

Fluco works by inhibiting sterol conversion, which may play a role in the structure of dino as well, or it could be a huge coincidence. I'm an N=1 here, not sure if anyone has been dealing simultaneously with bryo and dino, and did the fluco regimen.

[ajm83]

:-) that checks every single box for ostreopsis.
Now let's see this new critter.

Sorry for the bad video, not sure if it's going to be any good.

Only microscope I could get was a £9 kids plastic model. :lol: filmed it by holding my phone on the eyepiece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI_Uo-ZEd00

[taricha]

Sorry for the bad video, not sure if it's going to be any good.

Only microscope I could get was a £9 kids plastic model. [emoji38] filmed it by holding my phone on the eyepiece


Amphidinium. Low toxin, sand dwelling, annoying looking, but not really associated with coral / CuC death.

[ajm83]

Amphidinium. Low toxin, sand dwelling, annoying looking, but not really associated with coral / CuC death.

Thanks Taricha.

I was planning to continue Dino X for the maximum duration, reading the posts above, would I be better using fluconazole do you think?

I have bryopsis that I was going to get rid of with it after the dinos.

[taricha]

Thanks Taricha.

I was planning to continue Dino X for the maximum duration, reading the posts above, would I be better using fluconazole do you think?

I have bryopsis that I was going to get rid of with it after the dinos.

Fine to run dino-x for whatever it says max duration is. Then do fluconazole for bryopsis.
I think you'll still have dinos when it's all over, but we'll see.

[Thor2j]

Thanks Taricha.

I was planning to continue Dino X for the maximum duration, reading the posts above, would I be better using fluconazole do you think?

I have bryopsis that I was going to get rid of with it after the dinos.
I just quit dino-x after 5 doses because of the damage it was doing to my SPS.

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[ajm83]

Fine to run dino-x for whatever it says max duration is. Then do fluconazole for bryopsis.
I think you'll still have dinos when it's all over, but we'll see.

Thanks

I just quit dino-x after 5 doses because of the damage it was doing to my SPS.

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What damage was it doing in your tank? I haven't noticed anything.

[Thor2j]

Thanks



What damage was it doing in your tank? I haven't noticed anything.
All SPS polyps are closed up, some bleaching. ORP dropped over 20%.

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[bertoni]

I'd try some fresh carbon and some water changes. The drop in ORP might be the result of decaying dinoflagellates or other organisms. Please let us know how long it takes the SPS to recover. I hope they'll be fine in a few days.

[Thor2j]

I'd try some fresh carbon and some water changes. The drop in ORP might be the result of decaying dinoflagellates or other organisms. Please let us know how long it takes the SPS to recover. I hope they'll be fine in a few days.
I did 25% water change 2 days ago and ran a new batch of rox carbon in my reactor. Will do water change again maybe tomorrow if not Wednesday.

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[Hefner413]

Update for me... I think the UV sterilizer running for a couple days is doing some damage to the dinos. My skimmer seems to be producing 10x the prior amount without changing my skimmer settings. Plus my filter floss is filling up much more quickly with brown. So I'm hoping this means millions of dead dino carcasses coming out if the UV and into the filtration. I also turkey basted the rock tonight and lightly blew at the sand to help stir more dinos into the water column. I was pleasantly surprised to see little, if any, brown film/dust collection on the rock after a few hours of lights. And there was only slight collection on the sand.. but minimal. Previously everything would have had had a decent layer of brown dust at this point. I'm optimistic.

[taricha]

Update for me... I think the UV sterilizer running for a couple days is doing some damage to the dinos.

Awesome news. You said you got a scope, did you ever get pics, or figure ID?

[karimwassef]

Killings Dino's and exporting their dead tissue is just the start. You need algae to start taking over the nutrient removal process. Are you seeing algae?

[Hefner413]

Killings Dino's and exporting their dead tissue is just the start. You need algae to start taking over the nutrient removal process. Are you seeing algae?



No growth in my scrubber yet. My light may be too weak. Plus I forgot to rough up my screen and so I just did that. But with my NO3/NO4/PO4 all measuring zero... Do I need to dose to get it started?

[Hefner413]

Awesome news. You said you got a scope, did you ever get pics, or figure ID?



Finally got some video: https://youtu.be/M6D3FcOv8SY

[karimwassef]

No growth in my scrubber yet. My light may be too weak. Plus I forgot to rough up my screen and so I just did that. But with my NO3/NO4/PO4 all measuring zero... Do I need to dose to get it started?

PAR on a scrubber is key... you need excellent lighting to promote real growth.

[jweist]

You need proper light, flow and attachment. Get all these things down and you will be able to grow algae at zero N and P.

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[taricha]

Finally got some video: https://youtu.be/M6D3FcOv8SY
Interesting! What is the magnification in the video? pretty high?
If so, I'm going with Amphidinium Carterae(?) I checked your thread with the tank pics here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2627455 and the growth is a little fuzzier than typical amphidinium, Also the normal kind don't leave the sand so UV would be useless, but you say it's doing something.

It looks similar to some dinos I had in a small tank - see attached pic. The large ones are the typical amphidinium, but the tiny ones i think are a decent match to yours.
If they leave the sand and get killed by UV, then that's interesting new info.

If they are in fact Amphidinium Carterae, then.... this paper (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0047844#pone-0047844-t001) says they are 90% killed by 6.4 mg/L of peroxide (0.21 mL/L of our 3% h2o2) - but I couldn't replicate this result with even like 5 or 10x that dose.
This paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691843/) says they begin to self-destruct after 5 days of darkness, and are 100% dead never to return after 9 days of dark.
I haven't confirmed that either.

[trmiv]

So I still haven't done my tear down yet, been too busy. I figure before I do I may as well give UV a shot. How many watts do I need for a 120 with 30 sump? It seems something I can hook straight into the display through a loop or an internal model would be best since the little buggers are mostly in the display. I saw some internal models posted but it seems those are for much smaller tanks.

[bertoni]

For controlling algae, a small unit should be fine. Even a 15 W unit should do the job. I don't think dinoflagellates should be particularly hard to kill, and you could cut back the flow if they seem to be problematic.

[Hefner413]

Mag is 1200. Most are similar size. I have not seen large and small variations like the pic u posted. And mine definitely leaves the sand. It actually seemed to be thickest on the rock when it was at its worst. And today's sample was from rock also.

And yup :) that was my initial thread before I found this dedicated dino thread. I almost forgot how ugly the tank was then! You can see in the pics there, my rock coverage is very dense compared to the more patchy rock coverage in the pics you attacked. But yeah, The dark definitely had a huge effect. I went 4 days, maybe 5? And it cleared it up a ton. But it came back... Maybe lights not out not long enough. I could go longer I think, as my corals have done fine with the blackout. I might also try h202 for safe measure. Thanks again everyone for all input! Huuuuge help!

[Hefner413]

So I still haven't done my tear down yet, been too busy. I figure before I do I may as well give UV a shot. How many watts do I need for a 120 with 30 sump? It seems something I can hook straight into the display through a loop or an internal model would be best since the little buggers are mostly in the display. I saw some internal models posted but it seems those are for much smaller tanks.



Yeah, my internal is 13W, and that would be insufficient for 150gal. Looks like there are 55w sterilizers pretty reasonable on amazon.

[karimwassef]

get the highest power you can afford and run the slowest flow you can tolerate... how's that for rule of thumb? LOL

:)

[trmiv]

May try this 36 watt one

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0034V9P6W/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[karimwassef]

for $18 more, you can get 50% more power.

[bertoni]

Hmm, I would have thought that 1x tank turnover per hour would be fine for dinoflagellates. 18 W should do that for a 125 G tank. A stronger unit won't hurt, though.

[Kurt03]

No growth in my scrubber yet. My light may be too weak. Plus I forgot to rough up my screen and so I just did that. But with my NO3/NO4/PO4 all measuring zero... Do I need to dose to get it started?
You can try overfeeding but I had to dose no3/po4

[trmiv]

What about this 24w internal? http://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/green-killing-machine-internal-uv-sterilizer-with-power-head-24w#

Would be nice to avoid any more plumbing. I'd love to have it right in the display since that's where all these little buggers tend to hang out.

[bertoni]

It's probably fine if you tank can stand the heat. An internal unit probably will raise the temperature more than an external unit, but that might not matter. The rise might be very, very small.

[Hefner413]

I agree. I like the internal. Makes life much easier. Although I found it seems to be raising the temp a bit... My tank being more prone to this though at only 29gal.

[Hefner413]

Whoa. Bertoni called it while I was writing my message it seems. Yeah... Heat is am issue for me.

[bertoni]

Well, it's effective a 30 W heater or so that's always on. I can't predict how the tank would respond.

[trmiv]

I'm going to go with the internal just for ease of use. . I keep my house cool so heat is never an issue for me.

[taricha]

I suspect if we asked careful questions about people's UV application we'd find that in-tank UV is much more successful. It seems like the number/frequency of dinos passing through in-tank would be much bigger.
Regarding heat, running night-early morning only might be an option.
I'd guess (can't prove) that in-tank at night only would still be more effective than in sump 24/7.


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[karimwassef]

depends on your loop flow. If you have a 10 gallon tank and run 1000 gph... doesn't matter where your UV is.

I have a 380 and my loop is 6000gph.. with 4 powerheads generating 5000gph pulse flows all over... not quite as extreme, but still high enough that my sump and tank water are reasonably well mixed.