Dinoflagellates.

[Quiet_Ivy]

Black out and reduced photo periods don't work.
Dinos love the sand so remove it, at least where the light shines on it.
Leave the skimmer, phos media off til green algae is growing on the glass.
Run a small amount of carbon.
10uM filter socks.
No water changes.
Run tank water through a 5uM sediment filter with a pump and change the filter every 5 days.
Keep dosing phyto.

Doing all that except the 5 micron filter and sand removal. I wish I had green algae on the glass. Or anywhere. Got cyano in a few places, and dinos. Not sure how I'd even set up a 5 micron sediment filter, it would clog instantaneously, but I will look into it. I think I have some 10uM socks around, previously had them overnight on the return nozzles. They sure clogged up quickly.

thanks,
Ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

Been awhile since I have posted any updates on my battle with dinos. Slow flow UV (57 watt aquaUV) did not kill them but does seem to help in controlling the populations.

So now I am getting ready to close on a house and do not have a good place for an 8 foot tank. I am going to use this move as an opportunity to do a reset. Am in the process of ordering a custom tank and stand. Plan to use all new live rock and sand from TBS so I don't just move dinos to the new tank and will have plenty of microfauna. I do want to keep my corals and fish. Any suggestions on ways to prevent dinos from hitching a ride into the new tank on my corals? I will have to move a few pieces of rock over that my few remaining larger corals are heavily encrusted on. Thanks in advance.

Congrats on the new house! One of my favourite quotes is that 3 moves equals a house fire. :) I don't have any advice on moving corals, except that I'd do a dip to the max tolerance of the coral. You might try Bayer insecticide dips; I haven't tried it myself but I read that it kills pretty much everything and is tolerated well by corals. TBS seem like a great company; if they shipped up here to Canadia I'd have used their rock.

hth
Ivy

[alston2]

I hope this isn't veering off topic here, but since so many of you have them - can I get a recommendation on where to get a good scope? My notes (probably from talking w pants) tell me 4 or 10 objective and 40x magnification but a quality lens is most important. Any brand suggestions? I'm not sure how I would assess the lens. TIA.

[karimwassef]

I'll share a personal ally - urchins. The cheapest ones you can find. Get a bunch.

I've never had one die and they eat up cyano, diatoms, algae and bacterial growths. They're pretty indiscriminate and they shift the tide of war.

Well, they did for me anyway.

[Billybatz9]

I want to take sandbed out to reduce dinoflagellates, but how do I do that with a pistol shrimp?

[Billybatz9]

Does anyone else have the same problem as me....

Dealing with dinoflagellates and still buying corals? LOL

[Billybatz9]

Girlfriends tank has dinoflagellates thanks to yours truly :) But since it's a new tank, we will be experimenting with hair algae.

Hair algae has started to form on her sandbed (new tank process). Will let it grow out and see if it outcompetes the dinos. If it does, I will be taking some and putting it in my tank.

[DDon]

Congrats on the new house! One of my favourite quotes is that 3 moves equals a house fire. :) I don't have any advice on moving corals, except that I'd do a dip to the max tolerance of the coral. You might try Bayer insecticide dips; I haven't tried it myself but I read that it kills pretty much everything and is tolerated well by corals. TBS seem like a great company; if they shipped up here to Canadia I'd have used their rock.

hth
Ivy

Thanks Ivy, I appreciate it.
I was thinking of dipping everything, but wasn't sure what might be effective on dinos.
I was also thinking about spaying any exposed rock that corals are attached to with hydrogen peroxide.

[Billybatz9]

Anyone have dino-x left over? I would like to buy the bottle of dino-x if you have some left. PM me. Maybe it will work on my kind. I am desperate. lol

[mathman7728]

my corals seem really happy...good growth, some with good color others with OK color others more brown that i like to see.

interesting that there are different views on what that photo represents....is there someplace/someone that is the expert on IDing this stuff?

[shamus]

Anyone have dino-x left over? I would like to buy the bottle of dino-x if you have some left. PM me. Maybe it will work on my kind. I am desperate. lol


I would try everything else before dinox. I wish I had never used it. It wipes out all the pods and good stuff. I have been battling Dino for 6 months. I am finally getting some good results by adding a lot of pods, black outs and siphoning them out every couple days. Dinox did not work for me and I think did more bad than good, but that is just my opinion and experience. Dino's are the devil!

[Billybatz9]

I would try everything else before dinox. I wish I had never used it. It wipes out all the pods and good stuff. I have been battling Dino for 6 months. I am finally getting some good results by adding a lot of pods, black outs and siphoning them out every couple days. Dinox did not work for me and I think did more bad than good, but that is just my opinion and experience. Dino's are the devil!

Thanks for the advice. I just feel like crap. I want to enjoy the hobby and this algae is ruining it and making me waste more money than I have too.

[shamus]

Believe me I understand. I have had every algae you can have and Dino has been the most difficult thing I have had to deal with. Just be patient and be persistent and you will win. Nothing happens fast in a reef tank. Read all you can in is thread and other threads and try to do what the others have suggested. I think the pods and phyto is the way to go. UV sounds like it works too if you can use one. I don't think there is a magic potion or treatment that will get rid of it overnight. Apply more than one method others have used and don't give up. Good luck

[Quiet_Ivy]

I hope this isn't veering off topic here, but since so many of you have them - can I get a recommendation on where to get a good scope? My notes (probably from talking w pants) tell me 4 or 10 objective and 40x magnification but a quality lens is most important. Any brand suggestions? I'm not sure how I would assess the lens. TIA.

Not Toys R Us. :) Seriously about 3 of my friends with kids have toy scopes, and none of them work. I'd actually try your local university/technical college /mad scientist organisation; they will probably have lots of used ones up for much less than a new will cost. (Mine's from uni surplus. Now if I could just find slides for it..)

hth
Ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

I'll share a personal ally - urchins. The cheapest ones you can find. Get a bunch.

I've never had one die and they eat up cyano, diatoms, algae and bacterial growths. They're pretty indiscriminate and they shift the tide of war.

Well, they did for me anyway.

Hey, cool.. did you have snails die though? I think urchins are very cool animals, but I know I have a snail-killing variety of dinos.

Ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

Thanks Ivy, I appreciate it.
I was thinking of dipping everything, but wasn't sure what might be effective on dinos.
I was also thinking about spaying any exposed rock that corals are attached to with hydrogen peroxide.

Looking through an older thread on dinos at lunch for ideas and ran into this:
Here's a link to someone experimenting with his dinos: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1962886&page=36
Pretty good info for dipping.

hth
Ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

my corals seem really happy...good growth, some with good color others with OK color others more brown that i like to see.

interesting that there are different views on what that photo represents....is there someplace/someone that is the expert on IDing this stuff?

There was a grad student/ post doc? named Pants who was doing a thesis on dino taxonomy. Before I had them, unfortunately. He was collecting samples from aquarists. He's probably long graduated by now, but his website is here:
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

Here's youtube videos of some of the more common dinos: (also by Pants) https://www.youtube.com/user/YorickSanchez/feed

I would post the pic you have to wetwebmedia's question of the day. They do have experts on staff. That's how I found out I had dinos, then I came here. Kind of backwards. :)

hth
Ivy

[karimwassef]

Hey, cool.. did you have snails die though? I think urchins are very cool animals, but I know I have a snail-killing variety of dinos.

Ivy

Snails, hares and crabs died. Urchins just munched on.

Helps to be as ancient as the diatoms on the evolutionary chain.

[natas]

Has anyone tried running a diatom filter at night to try and rid the tank of Dino? I just read an interesting article about this very thing.

http://aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Diatomfilters.html

[karimwassef]

Hmmmm, a diatomaceous filter running in the dark as the main filter with high in-tank flow for several days should scrub the water pretty aggressively. Has anyone tried this?

That's what I said a few pages ago... :D

Looking through that site, I think this is the article you're talking about.
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Toxic_Algae.html

[natas]

Ahh I must of missed that Karin. My tank currently has Dino but I also have very high phosphate and nitrates so if they are still around after I get my levels down I may try this. I am just wondering if this is a better route compared to uv.

[karimwassef]

Different, yes. Why better?

[natas]

Well if it works it could be a cheaper route over uv. A uv for my system would be $500 while I could get a good diatom for $200 or less.

Not saying it is better. In fact I think uv is a better choice overall because you get other benefits out of it

[karimwassef]

My UV was $200. How big's your system?

[natas]

260G. I was looking at the Emperor Aquatics. I have always read the twist and other brands are not worth the money and are not effective.

[Billybatz9]

Green hair algae seems to be out competing the dinoflagellates in my gfs tank. I saw a huge reduction yesterday. Hair algae is all along the sandbed and is starting to grow on rocks. If this works, I will grab the hair algae and grow it in my tank.

[karimwassef]

I think UV is pretty basic technology. I think most people don't run UV properly regardless of their cost.

[Billybatz9]

Does anyone have any 10 micron filters they want to sell me ;) I don't want to buy 25 of them..

[cal_stir]

Does anyone have any 10 micron filters they want to sell me ;) I don't want to buy 25 of them..
What's your location?

[Billybatz9]

what's your location?

33029 florida. You are in canada. A bit far. Lol

[Billybatz9]

When you have dinoflagellates, I know you aren't supposed to do water changes, but does adding calcium supplements defeat the purpose? Or is it okay to add calcium supplements. The two little fishies two part calcium to be exact.

[bertoni]

Any supplement will add some trace elements, but dosing calcium and alkalinity should be fine. The volumes are very small compared to the tank volume.

[DNA]

DNA made very interesting posts a few days ago on the reason why water changes make dinos bloom.

.
The square is still there.

Last year I did jet another of my brilliant tests.
I siphoned off the top layer of sand into a bucket and let it dry out killing loads of dinos.
Some months later I dumped all the sand back into the tank, knowing there were lots of toxins going in with it.
A Royal Gramma and a pair of Mandarins died in the days that followed.
Much of the dino population disappeared as well.

The square test and the dead dino tests are virtually the same.
I'm theorizing that Ostreopsis dinoflagellates can't tolerate their own toxins.
This is the limiting factor on dino densities I've been looking for since day one.
In the ocean dino blooms get much denser than in reef tanks because the vast ocean carries and dilutes the toxins from the dead dinos.

Did we just reach another milestone?

Not convinced yet?

Many of us have seen their dinos bloom right after water changes.
The toxins got dilluted.

The dirty method: Turn off the skimmer and filters and let the toxins build up.
The clean method: Kill the dinos with UV and let the toxins build up.

[karimwassef]

DNA - if it's a toxin ppm that limits them, then adding more carbon would drive a dino explosion...

[garygonzales]

its funny you should say that ...i recently add more carbon,.then normal...and now have a dino explosion...hmmm.....maybe

[karimwassef]

So dinos cultivate their own brand of bacteria that feeds them and they are limited by their own toxins... Two interesting theses.

[Adrnalnrsh]

its funny you should say that ...i recently add more carbon,.then normal...and now have a dino explosion...hmmm.....maybe
What kind of carbon?

[garygonzales]

its called api activated carbon...

[Quiet_Ivy]

33029 florida. You are in canada. A bit far. Lol

https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/bagfilters.php has every kind of sock
You will need a pump or powerhead to drive water through the sock. In my tank anything below 100 clogs up hopelessly within an hour or two. I believe Ostreopsis is the smallest dino at 40 microns? Some of them are huge.

Good news re hair algae, although I doubt your gf was impressed with your gift of dinos. ;)

Adding Ca/Mg/Alk probably does help the dinos. But I lost a frogspawn due to alk swings (dinos cause wild alk drop, has anyone else experienced this?) so I'm hesitant to stop. High pH is supposed to be bad for dinos..

Haven't updated because tank's going all to heck. Hoping friend will drop off microscope this weekend.

ivy

[Adrnalnrsh]

its called api activated carbon...
He may have been referring to carbon dosing like vodka or biopellets

[karimwassef]

carbon dosing accelerates dinos too. Did we ever figure out why that is?

[Adrnalnrsh]

carbon dosing accelerates dinos too. Did we ever figure out why that is?
I was running activated carbon too and stopped

[garygonzales]

why did you stop activated carbon....

[Billybatz9]

https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/bagfilters.php has every kind of sock
You will need a pump or powerhead to drive water through the sock. In my tank anything below 100 clogs up hopelessly within an hour or two. I believe Ostreopsis is the smallest dino at 40 microns? Some of them are huge.

Good news re hair algae, although I doubt your gf was impressed with your gift of dinos. ;)

Adding Ca/Mg/Alk probably does help the dinos. But I lost a frogspawn due to alk swings (dinos cause wild alk drop, has anyone else experienced this?) so I'm hesitant to stop. High pH is supposed to be bad for dinos..

Haven't updated because tank's going all to heck. Hoping friend will drop off microscope this weekend.

ivy

Thanks for the info.

[bertoni]

carbon dosing accelerates dinos too. Did we ever figure out why that is?
Dinoflagellates are mixotrophic, or at least some are, so they might be feeding directly on the organic carbon, or perhaps on bacteria that are consuming the carbon.

[karimwassef]

So in the battle of good bacteria to bad bacteria - carbon just helps the bad guys?

[bertoni]

Maybe in some cases.

[Billybatz9]

Update on gfs tank...

Green hair algae won!! I did not perform a water change on her tank for 3 weeks either. Just saying.

I was going to add her green hair algae onto my tank but then discovered she has a few Flatworms in her tank. Not doing that!

This is about 3/4 of the amount of green hair algae in her tank. I had already started cleaning it up.

http://i.imgur.com/w4YmGX5.jpg

[garygonzales]

He may have been referring to carbon dosing like vodka or biopellets

o...ok...well i have a soties tank only so thats why i use activated carbon..but was putting more than before ..and got the outbreak....

[Billybatz9]

Here is my Game Plan

- Will be running lights on for 5 hours a day
- Will be dosing hydrogen peroxide for 5 - 7 days at night (3 ml for biocube 29)
- Will only be running filter floss


Here are my questions:
1. Should I do lights out for 3 days when I dose hydrogen peroxide? I did 3 days lights out about a week ago, but the dinos came back.
2. Do I have to take account for the rock work and really only dose like 2ml of hydrogen peroxide?
3. How long should I dose for (how many days)?
4. When should I do water change to get rid of hydrogen peroxide? Or does it become like pure water after a few days and lose its effectiveness?

[cal_stir]

Here is my Game Plan

- Will be running lights on for 5 hours a day
- Will be dosing hydrogen peroxide for 5 - 7 days at night (3 ml for biocube 29)
- Will only be running filter floss


Here are my questions:
1. Should I do lights out for 3 days when I dose hydrogen peroxide? I did 3 days lights out about a week ago, but the dinos came back.
2. Do I have to take account for the rock work and really only dose like 2ml of hydrogen peroxide?
3. How long should I dose for (how many days)?
4. When should I do water change to get rid of hydrogen peroxide? Or does it become like pure water after a few days and lose its effectiveness?
The h2o2 will be in the water so lights out should not make any difference since the dinos should not have to be in the water column.
OP have dosed h2o2 at double and triple the recommended dose.
I dosed for 10 days.
h2o2 is very unstable and will dissipate quickly, make sure you use fresh h2o2 as it can dissipate in the bottle.
Avoid water changes.

Lights out and h2o2 had no effect on my Ostreopsis Ovata.

[karimwassef]

If you're dosing peroxide, then you're attempting to kill dinos in the water column. This only works at lights off.

If you're spot targeting, then lights on or off doesn't matter.

Peroxide quickly reacts with whatever it touches and breaks down into water and oxygen.

[garygonzales]

i dose at night as well

[Billybatz9]

i dose at night as well

How's it working so far? Any effects?

[karimwassef]

I had moderate success but UV worked better

[Billybatz9]

I had moderate success but UV worked better

I wish I had $100 to spend on a UV lol

[karimwassef]

How much do you have invested in fish and coral?

[Billybatz9]

How much do you have invested in fish and coral?

$20 lol But I have about $400 (truly) in my tank. Worked at fish store. Got freebies everyday.

Quick question. Will hydrogen peroxide have an effect on my blood shrimp?

[cal_stir]

$20 lol But I have about $400 (truly) in my tank. Worked at fish store. Got freebies everyday.

Quick question. Will hydrogen peroxide have an effect on my blood shrimp?
It had no effect on mine.

[Billybatz9]

Is it bad to stir sand up when you have dinos? I have it on sandbed. When I suck sand out, the dinos just make a new layer on the new sand. Out of ideas. Only have like 3/4 inch sand left. I would suck it all out if I could, but I have a pistol shrimp

[karimwassef]

Peroxide will hurt any reactive biological tissue it touches. So if you put it on a shrimp, it'll hurt it, but my injecting it into the water column flow at night, you're only targeting free floating biological material - plankton. This is where the dinos are.

[karimwassef]

Is it bad to stir sand up when you have dinos? I have it on sandbed. When I suck sand out, the dinos just make a new layer on the new sand. Out of ideas. Only have like 3/4 inch sand left. I would suck it all out if I could, but I have a pistol shrimp

Increase or change your flow. They settle based on water flow.

[Billybatz9]

Increase or change your flow. They settle based on water flow.

Should I increase or decrease flow? What do dinos like better?

[garygonzales]

How's it working so far? Any effects?

no affect on my corals at all...i did the lights out and all gone ..so now hoping peroxide will keep this in check...i guess we will see.....

[Billybatz9]

no affect on my corals at all...i did the lights out and all gone ..so now hoping peroxide will keep this in check...i guess we will see.....
Lucky! I hate you lol . This thing is the devil. The lights out didn't work too well for me. I don't know why. It kicked them back but only for like one day. Then they came back.

[garygonzales]

can you lower the lights...i mean are they dimable??dont have them full blast...how long did you have your lights out for

[Billybatz9]

can you lower the lights...i mean are they dimable??dont have them full blast...how long did you have your lights out for

Yeah I can lower then.. I was originally running them at
90% blue 50% white

Now it's 50% blue and 50% white.

Did 3 days lights off and covered tank.

Dose h2o2 last night but am stopping. I noticed by shrimp is being affected. His atennae isn't looking good.

[cal_stir]

Yeah I can lower then.. I was originally running them at
90% blue 50% white

Now it's 50% blue and 50% white.

Did 3 days lights off and covered tank.

Dose h2o2 last night but am stopping. I noticed by shrimp is being affected. His atennae isn't looking good.My shrimps antenna kinda crinkled up a bit when dosing h2o2 but after a molt it was fine.

[Billybatz9]

My shrimps antenna kinda crinkled up a bit when dosing h2o2 but after a molt it was fine.

I feel bad lol. I looked at it this morning and I was like wth. I knew it was the h2o2. How many days did you dose for? And how big Is your tNk?

[cal_stir]

I feel bad lol. I looked at it this morning and I was like wth. I knew it was the h2o2. How many days did you dose for? And how big Is your tNk?I dosed for 10 days at 1ml/10gal in a 200gal system, the first 4 days were lights out.
It had no affect on the dinos.

[Billybatz9]

I dosed for 10 days at 1ml/10gal in a 200gal system, the first 4 days were lights out.
It had no affect on the dinos.

Do you have any before or after pics? I will stop if it does not do the job. I wouldn't want to do anymore harm to my bloodshrimp.

[cal_stir]

Do you have any before or after pics? I will stop if it does not do the job. I wouldn't want to do anymore harm to my bloodshrimp.I don't have any pics. It might depend on the type of dinos you have whether it works or not, I had Ostreopsis Ovata.

[reefwiser]

http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflag/

[Billybatz9]

You know what I find very weird. I could do a 50% water change at night, come back the next morning with lights on and the dinoflagellates are right back to the same spot. It's like I didn't get 1 dinoflagellate out of the tank. I don't get it. I am about 99% close to restarting my tank. I am holding on by that 1%

[karimwassef]

Do you have any section of the tank (sump, refugium, room) that's lit?

[Billybatz9]

Do you have any section of the tank (sump, refugium, room) that's lit?

No. Just the display section. and only 5 hrs a day now

[Billybatz9]

You can see it on my sand bed, slowing growing on my rock as well around my yuma
http://i.imgur.com/OrxzmRg.jpg

[tnias]

I just beat dino's and I tried all the options. In the end a combined approach seemed to work best. It will be more challenging with your corals but a supper short light cycle might work.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2517819

Good luck

[Adrnalnrsh]

After going the Pods and Phyto route I never had to do anything else.

[garygonzales]

yo billy i would stop doing water changes..that seems to fuel it....

[Billybatz9]

yo billy i would stop doing water changes..that seems to fuel it....

Last one I did was two weeks ago. Will be stopping it u til it's gone. But I do have corals. Should I dose calcium

[bertoni]

You should dose calcium and alkalinity if you have stony corals. Soft corals can tolerate a broader range of conditions.

[karimwassef]

Calcium and alkalinity also promote competing organisms like coralline algae, coral, and even invertebrates even fish (exoskeleton and skeleton)

[Dfee]

After going the Pods and Phyto route I never had to do anything else.


Me too. Hope I didn't just jinx myself

[Dfee]

yo billy i would stop doing water changes..that seems to fuel it....


Definitely. I think most people here world agree, no more water changes. My Dino's have been gone for about two weeks now, and I'm still not doing water changes.

[garygonzales]

yep no water changes for a while also test your alk and calcium before you dose tho..maybe wont have to for awhile.....

[Billybatz9]

Dosing h202 for 5 days did not work for me. Blood shrimp was affected. He is still alive, but his tentacles look like they were inserted into an electrical outlet.

Next experiment:
Massive dosage of pods and phyto.

Have not done a water change in 2 1/2 weeks.

Dinos have been stable (not increasing or decreasing).

If pods and phyto do not work. Will remove entire sandbed and work from there.

If that doesn't work, I will go to freshwater tanks lmao

[Dfee]

Dosing h202 for 5 days did not work for me. Blood shrimp was affected. He is still alive, but his tentacles look like they were inserted into an electrical outlet.

Next experiment:
Massive dosage of pods and phyto.

Have not done a water change in 2 1/2 weeks.

Dinos have been stable (not increasing or decreasing).

If pods and phyto do not work. Will remove entire sandbed and work from there.

If that doesn't work, I will go to freshwater tanks lmao


Feed like a madman too. Get those phosphates and nitrates up

[cal_stir]

Dosing h202 for 5 days did not work for me. Blood shrimp was affected. He is still alive, but his tentacles look like they were inserted into an electrical outlet.

Next experiment:
Massive dosage of pods and phyto.

Have not done a water change in 2 1/2 weeks.

Dinos have been stable (not increasing or decreasing).

If pods and phyto do not work. Will remove entire sandbed and work from there.

If that doesn't work, I will go to freshwater tanks lmao
One molt and the shrimp will be fine.
Removing the sand bed was "turning the corner" for me.
Pods and phyto was the "nail in the coffin".

[bheron]

This thread has been a lifesaver for me, almost literally. I've been battling Dinos for years and havent known much about them or what I could be doing until I found this thread a few months ago. Last time (2014) I was about to give in after 10 years of this hobby and losing different battles, many times b/c of Dinos. Instead I completely broke down my 220g setup to start fresh one last time. I bleached, acid washed the tank and live rock, and put in a brand new deep sand bed.

Here's my experience so far:

- October 1 2014: launched new sterile tank with sterilized live rock, tank equipment and 330lbs of a brand new deep sand bed. Immediately began to cycle tank with some dead shrimp

- Mid October added my first fish: 7 small chromis and blue damsels

- November 1: added 200+ worth of life from Indo Pacific Sea Farms: copepods, amphipods, bristle worms, spaghetti (Terrebellidae) worms, comet stars, reef plankton, various snails, and live sand activator

Things went very well, lost a few chromis which is always expected. In March or so I added my first piece of life from a LFS, one I trusted and still do. I placed a piece of their Live Rock in my tank to help with biodiversity.

Then, in April, 6+ months in..DINOS ARE BACK!!!

At that same time I found this thread which has saved me in this hobby. I've learned so much. I havent been able to identify my type yet b/c my microscope isnt strong enough. Here's what I learned first:

1) I suffer from CTO (Clean Tank Obsession") :o I've had so many troubles in the past with algea and dinos and cyano. Always assumed all of them were 100% a result of excess nutrients. So back in 2014 when I had my last outbreak, the Dinos covered EVERYTHING! I have a crazy picture somewhere. I battled it with: excessive water changes and tons of GFO. Now looking back Im not surprised it got so bad. As a result Ive always been obsessed with keeping nutrients so low, removing any extra waste, skimming, skimming, skimming, and using GFO.

2) Now looking back I've gained some clarity. I started thinking right before the Dinos appeared and things were going so well, I noticed an excess of algae on my sand, some cyano. So the panic button hit and I immediately started doing a bunch of WCs and running GFO. I think right after that my Dinos appeared.

I now know better. Through this thread I've learned the importance of balance in nature and our tanks!

So in April, even though I couldn't identify my type of Dinos, I took immediate action:

1) shut off skimmer (it hasnt been on since)

2) stopped all water changes (havent done one since)

In a matter of days I noticed a difference! Progression halted immediately. And what I had started to die back. I'd say in a few weeks it was almost gone.

I was happy. Didnt do anything else. But then, a month or so later, they started coming back. So I began reading more and more on this thread. Now, six-eight weeks later, today they are virtually gone, I'd say 97% gone. Here's what I did:

1) no skimming
2) no water changes
3) no GFO
4) ran filter socks at night to catch dinos in column

Then I decided to follow the "dirty tank" method I learned here and did:

5) Excessive overfeeding - like 5 to 10 times more of the dry pellets I normally feed. Did this for weeks and still doing it. Have recently added frozen mysis shrimp

6) Added more life: i already had a fuge with chaeto and pods, etc. But now I feed the fuge and the pods are going nuts. I trimmed back the chaeto to allow new growth. and have since doubled my fish population. Also dosed phyto for about a week or so.

As of today I'm virtually dino free!!! Just some small matter that's brown and dying off I guess. And I've noticed an increase in activity from the small worms and stuff in my sandbed and fuge. And also more reproduction in my snails which had almost halted.

So next steps are to:

7) Add a few more fish

8) Purchase another package from Indo Pacific Sea Farms - worms, etc, to continue to populate my deep sand bed


Hope that's helpful and not too much detail. I really believe this thread not only saved my tank but single-handedly kept me in this hobby. I'm sure this isnt the last I will see of these horrible Dinos. But know I feel armed with a plan of attack. And as I mentioned, have a much better appreciation for balance in this hobby.

[Cyberdude]

Wow. Mine started much the same way back in March. Perfect tank. Beautiful purple rocks lol. Baby was born in May. Spent a week at the hospital. And bam. Dino's. Did massive water changes and it's worse!!! I've stopped water changes. Run socks. But can't let go of my skimmer. Dino's still there. Tiny tiny bit better. Wired most of my turbo snail population died. Weird eh.

[Cyberdude]

Started running carbon and gfo. Havnt had them online in about a year

[Quiet_Ivy]

@bheron Wow, what an ordeal! I'm glad you're making headway finally. I think you are right about excessive cleanliness. I think it leads to low biodiversity, creating an environment where only extremophiles like cyano and dinos can survive. I hypothesize that the few of us with really intractable dinos (Hi DNA!) have something missing or wrong so far down the food chain it's difficult to remediate. Probably not a coincidence that neither of us has access to good real live rock or microfauna kits.

@Cyberdude Congrats on the new baby! Dinos are famous for killing snails. They are the organism responsible for 'red tides' and a lot of shellfish poisoning/killer diarrhea in the wild. I thought I had 'new tank algae' until all my snails died within a week. Stop doing water changes! Add a big bunch of pods if you can.

@Billy Shrimpy will regrow the antenna next moult. Weren't you going to add some hair algae rocks from your girlfriend's tank? Did that work? H2O2 did nothing for me either. I don't think it's worked for anyone in this thread. I've been eyeing my old books on freshwater kilifish too. *rolls eyes*

ivy

[Billybatz9]

@Billy Shrimpy will regrow the antenna next moult. Weren't you going to add some hair algae rocks from your girlfriend's tank? Did that work? H2O2 did nothing for me either. I don't think it's worked for anyone in this thread. I've been eyeing my old books on freshwater kilifish too. *rolls eyes*

ivy
I was going too, but all her hair algae died already. -_-

[Billybatz9]

Once all dinosaur are gone. When would you assume is a safe time to do water change?

[garygonzales]

im never doing one again..lol....who knows but all i know is the is a major outbreak of this stuff this year..in my area so ***,,,maybe water maybe air i dont know but ive never had this in the 12 years of my tank ...and now all of a sudden...twice now...not liking it...lol....

[Billybatz9]

im never doing one again..lol....who knows but all i know is the is a major outbreak of this stuff this year..in my area so ***,,,maybe water maybe air i dont know but ive never had this in the 12 years of my tank ...and now all of a sudden...twice now...not liking it...lol....
If I ever get rid of this and it comes back, I'm giving up. Hell no would I battle this again.

[Billybatz9]

One thing I will mention about my gfs tank who battled dinos...
Yes, her tank had lots of hair algae, but also lots of copepods, and I am seeing a good amount of Flatworms also. Could Flatworms be a possible fighter of the dinos?

[DNA]

I really believe this thread not only saved my tank but single-handedly kept me in this hobby. I'm sure this isnt the last I will see of these horrible Dinos. But know I feel armed with a plan of attack. And as I mentioned, have a much better appreciation for balance in this hobby.

This is like a fresh wind in our sails.

[karimwassef]

After using the clean method, I stocked my tank and refugium with glass and peppermint shrimp... I also run an open flow - no socks or nets.

Result :

http://youtu.be/8IU-gGSYyB4

Plankton to the max.

[Billybatz9]

I'm about to throw a rock through my tank.

[cal_stir]

After using the clean method, I stocked my tank and refugium with glass and peppermint shrimp... I also run an open flow - no socks or nets.

Result :

http://youtu.be/8IU-gGSYyB4

Plankton to the max.Wow!
Where did you get the plankton?

[Billybatz9]

Does anyone have any microscope vids of copepods actually eating dinoflagellates? And do the copepods survive the meal? Or do they die like most inverts?

[Adrnalnrsh]

Here's a pic of my Jedi mind trick starting to explode in growth

Was tincy when I had dinos.

Only negative so far since raising my nutrients is the explosion of bubble algae .

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/19/5d36698223874fa16f6043a20de026d7.jpg

[Quiet_Ivy]

Does anyone have any microscope vids of copepods actually eating dinoflagellates? And do the copepods survive the meal? Or do they die like most inverts?

No microscope yet, but I have dinos mostly on my glass, and it is *covered* with pods. I'd say 90% of the pods I see are on the dinos. They're definitely not dying off. Pods are listed as a major predator of dinos in a couple of papers; I can dig up the links if you like.

I have the clear-white Amphiscolops flatworms. They are on the dino patches, but I'm not totally sure whether they're eating dinos, or the pods. They have a strange foldy behaviour that looks predatory. Their population is steady at a 'couple'.

It would be seriously amusing if one of the plagues of the reef world turns out to eat dinos!


hth
Ivy

[garygonzales]

I'm about to throw a rock through my tank.

lol i hear ya....i guess you have to find a balance.. im still working on that myself..lol....im in same boat as you...:uhoh3:

[karimwassef]

I didn't get the plankton, I made it.

I have a large refugium with stacks of sand for denitrification and a chaeto jungle for phosphate uptake and pods to thrive in.

I bought about 10,000 pods from reefs2go. I also got 200 glass shrimp and 50 peppermints. The plankton is the byproduct of their feverish mating and the phyto I add.

I have a few other tricks like a nighttime surge that moves the refugium only (since its on a reverse cycle). That flushes the babies up into the DT.

This population exists in spite of still running my UV at night. This is because the dinos remain in the water column and float from the DT to the refugium. The slow flow back up to the DT kills some of the plankton, but most will stay in the DT. The dinos will stay in the column and be exposed repeatedly to UV.

[karimwassef]

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FA4F26A5-132D-4EF2-A7B2-ACCFC5D85BE7.png_zpsbkg8idai.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FA4F26A5-132D-4EF2-A7B2-ACCFC5D85BE7.png_zpsbkg8idai.jpeg" border="0" alt=" photo FA4F26A5-132D-4EF2-A7B2-ACCFC5D85BE7.png_zpsbkg8idai.jpeg"/></a>

[DNA]

Julian Sprung talking about his close encounter with palytoxin.
https://youtu.be/sgolj7laZQY?t=844

I added a tang a few years back that reacted like his Copperband did.
At that time I blamed cyanide fish catching, but now there is another possibility.

[Billybatz9]

I have green hair algae and would like to experiment on the use of it in my reef tank to outcome tell the dinos.

Questions:
1. What's the best way to put it in my tank and have it controlled? Or will it just start growing everywhere?
2. Could green hair algae kill corals?
3. How would you put it in your tank?

[karimwassef]

I wonder if anyone with a turf algae scrubber has dinos??

That would be an interesting datapoint.

[karimwassef]

I have green hair algae and would like to experiment on the use of it in my reef tank to outcome tell the dinos.

Questions:
1. What's the best way to put it in my tank and have it controlled? Or will it just start growing everywhere?
2. Could green hair algae kill corals?
3. How would you put it in your tank?

Algae scrubber

[Billybatz9]

Algae scrubber

Hard to set one up in a biocube 29

[karimwassef]

Actually, there are small self-enclosed boxes that can do this. It may add 15gals of water :)

[Quiet_Ivy]

I wonder if anyone with a turf algae scrubber has dinos??

That would be an interesting datapoint.

Interesting point.. I want to say I doubt it. Algae does put chemical messengers and signals in the water, this may be another reason green algae inhibits dinos.

@Billy I hear you on the rock. It's so frustrating when you are being careful and doing everything 'right' and something like this happens. Having a box of water in the living room that kills everything you put in it is not a relaxing experience.

About the hair algae, stick a rock in. It is unlikely to kill corals unless it's blocking out their light. Actually I doubt it will even grow in your tank unless you get your nitrates and phosphates up.

hth
Ivy

[Cyberdude]

Are dinos the reason why my gonipora and acans are closed

[Adrnalnrsh]

My acans were craps when I had dinos. They've improved a lot

[Cyberdude]

Well I'll chalk that up as normal for now lol. and I just installed a new sexy sump too bummer. 329130

[garygonzales]

dinos covered almost every coral in my tank ..had to keep blowing this stuff off...****ed off my zoas and gorgonians too....

[Quiet_Ivy]

Well I'll chalk that up as normal for now lol. and I just installed a new sexy sump too bummer. 329130

Maybe. Dinos can drop alkalinity. Maybe something is leaching from your new (sexy indeed :) sump?

hth
Ivy

[karimwassef]

So no one battling dinos has a turf scrubber at the time, right?

[Billybatz9]

No water changes
Reduced feeding
Reduced lighting
Siphoning out top layer of sandbed.

Dinos get worse... the hell?

[Cyberdude]

More light
More food
No skimmer
No gfo

Getting better

(Just go the sump yesterday. Dinos been there since May)

[Cyberdude]

So no one battling dinos has a turf scrubber at the time, right?


I did. The dinos killed it. No green algae left anywhere. my cheato shrank and isn't growing.

[bheron]

@bheron Wow, what an ordeal! I'm glad you're making headway finally. I think you are right about excessive cleanliness. I think it leads to low biodiversity, creating an environment where only extremophiles like cyano and dinos can survive. I hypothesize that the few of us with really intractable dinos (Hi DNA!) have something missing or wrong so far down the food chain it's difficult to remediate. Probably not a coincidence that neither of us has access to good real live rock or microfauna kits.

Thanks Quiet_Ivy. I spent years dealing with algae and cyano before the dinos. Was so programmed to keep reducing nutrients. It never worked! :-)

This is like a fresh wind in our sails.

:-)


So what about running Carbon? Any feedback that makes Dinos worse? After months of the 'dirty tank' method I'd like to run some carbon to see if I can clear up the water.

[Billybatz9]

Do your corals survive the dirty water method?

[Billybatz9]

I don't think I will be able to continue to battle these dinoflagellates. I will be starting my tank over. I have given up. It's a losing battle and my wallet grows more and more thin as I try and try to fight them.

Any ideas how to start over? I'd like to keep the same rocks if possible. How do I clean them? Hydrogen peroxide dip? Vinegar dip? Both? Any help would be great.

Thank you

[bheron]

Do your corals survive the dirty water method?

You know I can't say since I'm pretty much a fish only right now. I have two simple corals that were hurt by the Dinos so hard to say. Dont want to add any coral until I have this nailed down.

[bheron]

I don't think I will be able to continue to battle these dinoflagellates. I will be starting my tank over. I have given up. It's a losing battle and my wallet grows more and more thin as I try and try to fight them.

Any ideas how to start over? I'd like to keep the same rocks if possible. How do I clean them? Hydrogen peroxide dip? Vinegar dip? Both? Any help would be great.

Thank you

Well I've started over so many times over the last 10 years b/c of the aforementioned issues and several other catastrophes. I'm a starting over expert. To your question, check out this thread I started years ago on what to do with your rocks:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1587539&highlight=bleach

[Cyberdude]

Did you try dino x before starting over?

[Billybatz9]

Did you try dino x before starting over?

No. I have read that dino x only sets that back a little and they end up coming back. And I rather buy Dr time one and only nitrifying bacteria for $17 and cope pods for $15 to start my new tank rather than another $30 for a hit or miss on the dinos.

[Billybatz9]

Thinking about just dipping the rocks in freshwater for about 10 days. This has to kill dinos right?

[karimwassef]

I did. The dinos killed it. No green algae left anywhere. my cheato shrank and isn't growing.

How? Cover them up so they don't get light? Poison it?

The scrubber is a very high flow. Dinos shouldn't be able to hold on.

[Ser Davos]

I am battling dinos right now in my 125g tank/30g sump that is 9 months old. I just had diatoms at first, then one day a jebao wp-40 went out while I was out of town and my tank was covered in brown snotty looking algae when I returned. After this happened, I bought a new RODI unit to switch from tap water (should have did this from the beginning). I started aggressively making water changes to get rid of the tap, even though my nitrates were <5, and phosphates were 0. Well that really set the algae off and at this time I realized it was dinos after searching for an answer... I have every symptom and photos are an exact match.

So far I have:
-Started dosing peroxide at 1ml/10 gallons, around 14ml total split into morning/night. I'm on day 5 of this.
-Did a complete blackout for 2 days. I lost two fish during this time, and almost a third so I had enough.
-Vaccumed sand bed and live rock using a small diameter tube rigged to the handle of my glass scrubbing tool, and a coral feeder (like a turkey baster) to blow the dino off the rocks then suck them up. I ran them through a filter sock with floss inside, then returned the water. I couldn't get them all but it made a dent it seems.
-Cut my skimmer off and stopped water changes, hoping to raise my nitrates.

So far the peroxide is helping, but not wiping them out yet. I'm running my lights for around 3-4 hours a day and some do reappear on the rocks during this time.

I've been reading about adding copepods, phytoplankton, and microalgae to help add diversity to the tank. My question is will the peroxide dosing kill the copepods if I add them soon, or should I wait until I'm finished (at least 2-5 more days).

[Billybatz9]

I might as well own one of these at this point. Geesh
https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/491197741_640.jpg

[Cyberdude]

Couple days in vinegar then sun dry should be enough

[Quiet_Ivy]

I don't think I will be able to continue to battle these dinoflagellates. I will be starting my tank over. I have given up. It's a losing battle and my wallet grows more and more thin as I try and try to fight them.

Any ideas how to start over? I'd like to keep the same rocks if possible. How do I clean them? Hydrogen peroxide dip? Vinegar dip? Both? Any help would be great.

Thank you

I'm sorry to hear that. :( I'm self employed and I hear you on the cost of things being a major factor. I'm waiting to borrow a microscope from someone, and if I find I do have Ostreopsis I may throw in the towel as well.

I would not reuse the rocks. Seriously. Dip corals, sure. (I used Coral RX on every frag that went into my tank..would suggest trying something stronger.)

Dinos really suck
Ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

So far the peroxide is helping, but not wiping them out yet. I'm running my lights for around 3-4 hours a day and some do reappear on the rocks during this time.

I've been reading about adding copepods, phytoplankton, and microalgae to help add diversity to the tank. My question is will the peroxide dosing kill the copepods if I add them soon, or should I wait until I'm finished (at least 2-5 more days).

Welcome to the club, sorry you have to be here.

Peroxide at 1mL/10g killed off many/most of the pelagic copepods in my tank. It had no apparent effect on benthic pods. Most commercial pod kits seem to be tigger/tisbe spp. which are pelagic, so I'd wait til you stop dosing to add them. Macroalgae will contain all kinds of microcritters that are good for biodiversity.

hth
ivy

[karimwassef]

Ok. I brought this up a while ago but since I'm not plagued, I don't need to try it out...

Since dinos settle down under light, why not run a dark system with a brightly lit section (big tub or container) with a lot of surface area for them to settle down on. Let it run for a while until the container is plagued with them. Maybe even put lots of eggcrate so they have lots of space to settle down...

Then! Abruptly disconnect the container from the main tank and "export" the dino crop into the drain. Harvest them and throw them away.

Some will remain, but maybe it's enough to give the other inhabitants a step up?

[Cyberdude]

I just dosed Dino x. Here is my before shot. 329214

[garygonzales]

I just dosed Dino x. Here is my before shot. 329214

wow .........ok let us know if this works

[Cyberdude]

I'll post again same time Tom. This sux.

[Quiet_Ivy]

I'll post again same time Tom. This sux.

Whoah, hey, you're supposed to dose Dino X at night.

It's super-powered-radioactive stuff, you did read the instructions, right?

Remove all chemical filtration and stop all additives. Run skimmer wet. Dose by actual water volume, ie tank size minus rock/sand/gear displacement, NOT how big your tank is.

There's a thread when DX just came out, and someone from FM was answering questions. He basically said 'Yeah, dino X and GFO can nuke your tank'.

Ivy

[Cyberdude]

Thanks ivy. All those instructions have been followed. Cross fingers lol

[LuciDog]

I guess I'll pull up a chair and join the club now.

Noticed the Dino's about 2 weeks ago. Currently in a state of blackout (24 hours so far), carbon running, daily filter sock change, increased ph to 8.6...

I read the first 17 pages of this, and the last 4. Seriously helpful stuff.

But it smells to hell right now. Like rotting fish.

[Cyberdude]

Mine stinks too. After I added Dino x

[LuciDog]

I didn't add anything new. Been upping the ph over 7 days, carbon started 5 days ago. Only thing new is darkness.

As much as I hope it's the smell of Dino death, I'm not going to hold my breath... Not after reading what so many have gone through.

Currently going with a clean approach (which I now understand isn't very successful). When this fails me, I'll be getting dirty with these suckers.

[Cyberdude]

I went dirty. But I think I was too far in. 6 hours in to Dino x and my gonipora that has been closed for two weeks is starting to show signs of life. Even my frog spawns are fully open. Very strange.

[Quiet_Ivy]

Thanks ivy. All those instructions have been followed. Cross fingers lol

Sorry for freaking out at you. Fingers crossed :) Do have a peek to make sure you haven't had something die. Dinos are stinky but they don't small at all rotten to me.

[Quiet_Ivy]

I didn't add anything new. Been upping the ph over 7 days, carbon started 5 days ago. Only thing new is darkness.

As much as I hope it's the smell of Dino death, I'm not going to hold my breath... Not after reading what so many have gone through.

Currently going with a clean approach (which I now understand isn't very successful). When this fails me, I'll be getting dirty with these suckers.

Smell is kind of underrated in reefkeeping.

It doesn't get mentioned anywhere, but dinos *do* smell weird. I can smell them when I have the top off my aquarium.

Macroalgae smells weird too. And when the LFS is fragging softies it reeks.

Clean method has worked for a couple of people! They go for removing sandbeds, adding UV, ozone. Don't jinx yourself, you may not have to.

hth
Ivy

[Cyberdude]

Things look better this morning. After a 10ml dose all of my Lps and sps immediately shriveled up. About 30 min later they all showed fully extended polyps. Interesting. This morning before lights start to ramp up I dumped a healthy dose of reef roids. Coral seems happy. At least Dino x does not affect them negatively. In fact most of my Lps and gonipora that has been closed for over a month started to open. So far so good. Only running filter floss and skimmer.

[LuciDog]

I would be interested to see what kind of results were shown dosing Dino x under a scope on different strains. Anyone have any info on it?

[bheron]

Any official position on dosing carbon? Does carbon make Dino's worse? I'd like to clear up my water after going dirty. But so afraid to put anything in that would bring them back.

[karimwassef]

One group believes that removing the toxins gives dinos more range to grow without being self limiting.

Another believes that removing the toxins helps their competitors gain hold.

It depends on where you are in the battle. If you've just knocked them back, then this might be the time to give their competitors a leg up. If they're gaining ground, it would be a bad time to give them more range.

Oops- just noticed you're asking about carbon dosing. My reply was about carbon filtration.

I think carbon dosing helps dinos thrive.

[Quiet_Ivy]

I would be interested to see what kind of results were shown dosing Dino x under a scope on different strains. Anyone have any info on it?

Joseph.Lucketta tested his Ostreopsis with dino x, hyposalinity and peroxide. (And I knew I was going to want that link :)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23947712&postcount=889


There's almost nothing on specific strains because 99% of us don't have a clue. (And actually Pants said there were 3 common types in aquaria, and he couldn't id the 3rd for sure.) Here's his videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/YorickSanchez/feed

[Quiet_Ivy]

Dirty method on a massive scale?

My bro-in-law's 16g shattered while they were away overnight! He's decided to get out of the hobby completely. (This is I believe his 3rd tank explosion. The first 2 were in a 300g. They had to redo most of the basement.)

So I just took home all his rock, corals and 2 fish. He glues all his frags down and I didn't want to try removing them, so I replaced almost all my rock with his.

I'm plugging my skimmer back in, added a ton of carbon. I expect a pretty bad ammonia spike just from the rock, there may be 6+ dead crabs in there, so I've preemptively added Prime and a new ammonia badge.

We'll see what this does to my dinos.

ivy

[Cyberdude]

Omg is he in an earthquake zone? That's horrible luck.

[garygonzales]

Any official position on dosing carbon? Does carbon make Dino's worse? I'd like to clear up my water after going dirty. But so afraid to put anything in that would bring them back.

i did have an outbreak when i added more carbon then i normally add..could be quince dent i dont know ..but not going to do that again.....

[Quiet_Ivy]

Omg is he in an earthquake zone? That's horrible luck.

I know, right? The 300g was a built-in-the-wall beautifully done tank. He had it built by a professional, but I wonder if it wasn't quite level, or his basement floor's not level.

Forgot to mention! I have green algae on my glass! I've been dosing nitrate to keep my tank at 3ppm for 3 days. This is literally the first time I've ever seen green algae in this tank. Nitrate was back to 0 this am, phosphate too. I'm sure it'll be ridiculous once bro in law's stuff starts re-cycling.

Yay!

ivy

[Cyberdude]

I'm thinking of dosing skimmate back in my tank. Did that in the last my corals loved it

[LuciDog]

I have a massive green algae bloom going on right now, 48 hours after lights out. There is still strings all over, attached to everything. I'll grab a pic in a few. I'm going in to pull some snot off my sps.

Going to start H2O2 dosing tonight. Will start at 1ml/10g

I spoke to one of the biology professors at western university. He is willing to stick a sample under a scope for me to help ID it, and possibly help run some experiments.

[Cyberdude]

Siphon in to a filter sock at night back in to your tank. Remove and much as you can. Don't change the water.

[Cyberdude]

After 24 hours of dinox and a quick siphon in to a filter sock in my tank. Much better 329324

[LuciDog]

I'm not doing any water changes for a while. I went in and cleaned up what I could of the dino's.

This is where I'm at. Sorry, dark room, dark tank, bad pic.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/coulahen1/943E2720-96B3-488A-BE9B-0ED434C33CAE_zpsu9ug9b77.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/coulahen1/media/943E2720-96B3-488A-BE9B-0ED434C33CAE_zpsu9ug9b77.jpg.html)

[Cyberdude]

Suck it up. Install a filter sock in your sump and siphon away.

[LuciDog]

I have filter socks running 24/7, changed daily. That's all green algae that has taken up residence in the past 48 hours. I siphoned the dinos through a sock and dumped the water back in.

She's a beaut ;)

[Billybatz9]

Instead of taking my tank down, I will perform 4 days lights out to see if that does anything. Maybe 5? Normally I would do 3, but this is my Last hope. If that doesn't work, I'll maybe buy Dino x to try (although it may be a waste of money).

Taking down a tank and restarting is such a pain.

[Quiet_Ivy]

Instead of taking my tank down, I will perform 4 days lights out to see if that does anything. Maybe 5? Normally I would do 3, but this is my Last hope. If that doesn't work, I'll maybe buy Dino x to try (although it may be a waste of money).

Taking down a tank and restarting is such a pain.

Before you do a lights out again, could you do a sort of summary on your tank? What are your nitrate/phosphate numbers like? Maybe we can come up with several inexpensive things to try along with the blackout. I know you have a squinty shrimp but do you still have that anemone? Corals, etc. Pictures of your tank?

@Lucidog- Looks terrible, great job! ;) Is that cyano?

@cyberdude- wow, looks really good

[LuciDog]

Some of it probably is. Most of it is just run of the mill nasty green algae. I didn't look close, or for long. I just wanted to do what I needed to do, and cover it back up.

Pulling the cover tonight, and setting my lights to run 4 hours at 1/4 power, only blues, for Thursday. That will be 90 hours in the dark.

[Billybatz9]

Before you do a lights out again, could you do a sort of summary on your tank? What are your nitrate/phosphate numbers like? Maybe we can come up with several inexpensive things to try along with the blackout. I know you have a squinty shrimp but do you still have that anemone? Corals, etc. Pictures of your tank?

@Lucidog- Looks terrible, great job! ;) Is that cyano?

@cyberdude- wow, looks really good

I don't have any test kits worth testing for. But I have 0 algae apart from dinos. Reduced feedings so phosphates should be low.

I have anemones, montis, frogspawn, hammer, torch, and zoas.
Two clown fish, bicolor blenny, six line wrasse, blood shrimp, ND pistol shrimp.

[DNA]

Some of us seem to be lost or stuck on square one.

A few pages ago the intergalactic dino-committee agreed on that plankton was the way to go.
We have already seen positive signs from that direction so step on and join the collective on a journey to glory.

Sometimes the pages rush by in a whoosh and people today demand fast facts, wrapped in cellophane.
I've already started to edit the original post so people can enjoy just that in not so distant future.

77 pages read at 2 minutes a page should take about 2.2 hours of life, death, suspense and action.
If you have dinos it's the wise thing to do.

[natas]

if we can nail this down and get multiple people confirming that plankton and pods solve the issue for a good % of people maybe someone can write up a summary and howto and get it posted as a sticky.

[LuciDog]

DNA- is there a specific pod that you, or others, have introduced, that is showing more victory then others?

Pods are not easily come by around here. The lfs in my area are a joke. And the ones who do have a bit of knowledge, won't bring them in unless it's a special order. The shelf life isn't great.

I have read 40 of the pages in this thread alone. I appreciate all the time and effort that has gone into this. I'm just trying to hold mine back until I can get an ID on them.

[Cyberdude]

Where would you release the pods? I would suspect they would quickly become fish food in the display. How would releasing them in the sump help?

[EvMiBo]

Just release at night. Benthic pods.

[Quiet_Ivy]

if we can nail this down and get multiple people confirming that plankton and pods solve the issue for a good % of people maybe someone can write up a summary and howto and get it posted as a sticky.

I've been toying with making a chart of efficacy from this and the older dino thread. I dunno how to account for multiple methods tho.

I can tell you that pods and phyto alone cured at least 2 people's tanks just in the last 4 pages of this thread. If you start including 'dirty method' in general that goes way up. Also it's the only method with zero adverse effects.

I can link several scientific papers (and the biology post-grad from the other thread who was trying to culture dinos) saying that copepods are the major predator, and that dinos don't compete well at higher nutrient levels.

Pod stuff:
-Try to get benthic pods. Might be difficult as tisbe and tigriops are both pelagic iirc. Nothing wrong with either type, fish just love pelagic

-add a chunk of live rock/sand from your LFS, local reefer to your sump, will seed pods. Doesn't have to be big. Someone must have a cheap mushroom frag for sale. Bonus if the piece includes some kind of algae

-Americans have zillions of options. Order a kit or live sand or a small piece of live rock from TBS, IPSF, ReefCleaners. Non usains are kinda hosed. Check local reef club, online classifieds

-Adding a bunch of macro algae will seed with many different types. Someone local with have chaeto for super cheap, it has to be harvested regularly

-just feeding phyto should cause a population explosion. It doesn't have to be live phyto. I'm using phytofeast which is dead and super concentrated

-if you can't get any of the above, overfeed. Many pods are detrivores. Overfeed anyway, it helps

hth
ivy

[karimwassef]

Isn't Canada just the northernmost state? :)

What's that aboot, ey?

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

[cal_stir]

Might be the next state to legalize marijuana.

[Cyberdude]

90% dinos gone. Had them since May. One more dose of dinox tonight and siphon the remains tom! So exited. 329404

[LuciDog]

Im going to jump on the pod/plankton bandwagon. Going tomorrow (pending time) to pick up pods. It's an hour drive so fingers crossed I make it before closing.

[Ser Davos]

I'm on day 6 of peroxide and things are looking a lot better. My trochus snails seem more active and are eating the remaining visible algae on my rocks. My glass and sand have never been so clean. The amount of Dino's visible after 4 hours of lights is less each day.

I've stopped water changes, did a 2.5 day blackout to start with, stopped skimming and have been feeding more and using frozen food.

I have pods and microalgae coming in next Tuesday as well. I may get some chaeto for my sump too to help keep suck up nutrients.

[Billybatz9]

I heard someone beat dinos by switching salt to red sea coral pro salt. Does anybody use red sea coral pro salt?

[natas]

I personally stopped using red sea coral pro salt because I believe it was making my dinos worse. It's a great salt but they do add a lot to it to get levels raised to extremes. When I switched to Fritz salt the dino blooms were not as bad after a water change (take note they were still there)

[PorkchopExpress]

amphipods are benthic aren't they? i don't particularly know what copepods are benthic other than the tigger pods but every single time i've tried to add them to my water they always all end up in my filter sock because they are free swimming...i cannot keep tigger pods alive in my tank past a few hours

[LuciDog]

A gallon of plankton on order for pick up tomorrow. Going to start a culture and dose like crazy.

[Quiet_Ivy]

amphipods are benthic aren't they? i don't particularly know what copepods are benthic other than the tigger pods but every single time i've tried to add them to my water they always all end up in my filter sock because they are free swimming...i cannot keep tigger pods alive in my tank past a few hours

Yes, amphipods tend to be benthic. And huge. That just means they hang out on the sand, rocks in your tank. Tiggers (Tigriops spp) are free swimming pods, so they are classified as pelagic, ie in the water column. Fish loooooove pelagic pods so they don't survive long in a display tank. If you see pods on the glass, they could be either type. Just to confuse you. :)


@Karimwassef Don't make me come over there and say eh at you! ;) PS. Tried putting some cheesecloth in my tank with an led light on it overnight. Pulled out epic numbers of pods and a thick coating of dinos. Yech!

@Billybatz I was using IO when I got dinos. When I couldn't keep alk up I switched to IO/Reef. Then switched to D&D H20 when my LFS got some in 2kg bags. Didn't seem to make a difference. Bro in law gave me his salt stash so I've now got several types. Red Sea is real seawater with the water evaporated out, it may have a lot of random stuff in it.

[jason2459]

Isn't Canada just the northernmost state? :)

What's that aboot, ey?

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

I thought it was some remote US territory like Puerto Rico....

:strooper:

[Quiet_Ivy]

Update! Not that anybody reads these loooooong messages, but it keeps me organized. :)

Mass confusion reigns. I got the microscope. The yellow sludge on my glass which was id'd by pros as dinos doesn't seem to contain *any* life. That implies it's bacterial, too small to see with my little scope. Dinos do like to live in a bacterial sludge, but I should see some cells. I suspect user error.

Looking at filter pads, zomg! Ostreopsis ovata very clearly. BUT also some much smaller very suspicious brown, round cells. (And a virtual carnival of microcritters, including some kind of amoeba which was happily eating everything else. Very cool). Could I have several types of dinos? Is this why I'm having so much trouble getting rid of the stupid things?

Don't know if I mentioned it here, but I dosed nitrate in my tank to 3ppm with potassium nitrate. 3 days later- green algae on the glass! Very exciting as this is literally the first time I've had green algae of any sort in the tank. The algae has persisted without further additions of KNO3.

Ivy

[LuciDog]

That is fantastic and gross all at once! (Yes I read the posts. I read all the posts pertaining to this horror).

My update. 92 hours in the dark and they are still snotty and stringy and all sorts of eww, but I only count a handful of bubbles (so far, knock on wood)

Lfs is a joke. Calling multiple ones trying to get a scope ID. One told me to bring in a sample and they can tell from just looking. They are "trained". Uh huh. Sure you are.

[Ser Davos]

Pod stuff:
-Try to get benthic pods. Might be difficult as tisbe and tigriops are both pelagic iirc. Nothing wrong with either type, fish just love pelagic

ivy


Hmm from what I'm reading Tisbe are benthic. Have some on order.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/276657-the-pod-farm/
http://www.orafarm.com/product/pods-tisbe/

[karimwassef]

Tried putting some cheesecloth in my tank with an led light on it overnight. Pulled out epic numbers of pods and a thick coating of dinos. Yech!

So do you see this as a viable export method??

[PorkchopExpress]

yup, after reading some articles online it appears that tisbe are in fact benthic while tigriopus are palegic...tigger pods are the ones you see at most stores from reef nutrition...they are a colder water species and will not last long in our tanks not to mention they are free swimming and will just get caught in your filter sock or skimmer...buy some tisbe, dump it in your refugium or your display when the lights are out, pumps off...i usually buy tisbe from a local guy and keep bottles in my fridge to recharge the refugium every now and then because i have a mandarin

word of caution to those of you that are in the US - although the prices are attractive do NOT buy from reefs2go...they have very poor practices in shipping livestock with barely any water and most if not your entire order will arrive doa...their customer service is horrid as well...don't just take my word for it, look them up at the better business bureau before you decide to order from them, you'll be glad you did...i know it seems their buy one get one free copepod/amphipod mixture is a great deal but i did buy some and all they send you is a bag with a moist filter pad and a handful of amphipods...no copepods found

[karimwassef]

I agree that their service and shipping is awful!
Amphipods can handle being out of water for a while though. They're pretty tough. I usually get their bogo 500 with free shipping and then add another bogo 1000. That way, there's no shipping and I get about 3000.

I would not buy anything you wouldn't be willing to lose. I don't but fish or coral, or even most crabs and shrimp. But the pods seem ok.

[Cyberdude]

After 4 months almost gone in 3.5 days 329496

[Billybatz9]

After 4 months almost gone in 3.5 days 329496

"Almost" sounds like they will be back once done dosing.

[Cyberdude]

I don't know. Zero new growth. I've also added siphoning every day. Keeping the same tank water. First time I see it staying back.

But I am finally seeing green algae growing. So I'm 90% sure I've won the battle.

[Cyberdude]

Also. All of my zoas and flower pots have opened after months being closed. Hummmmm I like it

[Quiet_Ivy]

I don't have any test kits worth testing for. But I have 0 algae apart from dinos. Reduced feedings so phosphates should be low.

I have anemones, montis, frogspawn, hammer, torch, and zoas.
Two clown fish, bicolor blenny, six line wrasse, blood shrimp, ND pistol shrimp.

This is a 40gallon tank? You're in the US?

Sounds like you were trying the clean method. Have you tried the dirty? You actually want your phosphates to be measurable, not crazy, but like .03. Nitrate too, 2-3ppm. I would actually increase feeding. I raised nitrate in my tank artificially, and got green algae within 3 days. Shut off your skimmer, pull antiphosphate media. Give it a week and see how you go.

Cheapest way to get pods is to hit your local classifieds and see who has Chaeto algae.. it has to be harvested so people sell/give it away. It comes with a massive load of various pods. Before I knew I had dinos I gave baseball chunks of it away every month. (Interestingly, none of the recipients got dinos)

hth
ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

So do you see this as a viable export method??

After 3 days of trying it, no. It *does* remove an unholy amount of dinos. Many times more than just running the cloth at night, without the light. The cheesecloth is visibly gross and slimy.

What I don't like is that it also removes almost all the pods out of the water column. They're attracted to the light as well. I've been experimenting with shutting the light off before removing the cloth, which does reduce pod capture, but I'm still pulling way more of the little guys out than I want.

ivy

[karimwassef]

Hmmm... How about a pod grow out 10gal with a live rock, some chaeto and no additional feeding.

They can develop their dino eating habits more in a closed environment. Make them super bugs.

[natas]

They can develop their dino eating habits more in a closed environment. Make them super bugs.

After that put freaking laser beams on the pods foreheads!

[LuciDog]

So how much plankton are we dosing? I went and picked up a ton, plan to start a culture, and dose the rest.

[Billybatz9]

Before I scrap the tank... I am thinking about doing one more thing...

Removing fish and dosing phyto and copepods.

If nothing eats the copepods, they will reproduce like crazy no? And eat all the dinos.

I feel like it's hard to get a good population of pods if you have fish like wrasses that eat them like no tomorrow

[karimwassef]

When I first set up my tank, I populated it with just pods and glass shrimp for months! It's great.

[Cyberdude]

DinoX! Before you scrap your tank. It worked for me. After having dinos for 5 months.

[Billybatz9]

DinoX! Before you scrap your tank. It worked for me. After having dinos for 5 months.

How much was it and where to buy?

[EvMiBo]

Before I scrap the tank... I am thinking about doing one more thing...

Removing fish and dosing phyto and copepods.

If nothing eats the copepods, they will reproduce like crazy no? And eat all the dinos.

I feel like it's hard to get a good population of pods if you have fish like wrasses that eat them like no tomorrow

Start your own culture of benthic copepods, and begin dosing at night, powerheads off. You probably won't need to dose pyhto until dinos are no longer visible to the naked eye.

Hmm from what I'm reading Tisbe are benthic. Have some on order.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/276657-the-pod-farm/
http://www.orafarm.com/product/pods-tisbe/

I'd imagine if you could get a culture going with 2-3 species it'd work best.

[Cyberdude]

About 30$ for a 250ml bottle. Used right 25 mls to treat

[Cyberdude]

http://www.reefsupplies.ca/online-store/home.php

[Billybatz9]

About 30$ for a 250ml bottle. Used right 25 mls to treat

Damn, I wish they sold smaller quantities. That's crazy that we only use like 1/10 of the bottle

[karimwassef]

Get a bigger tank :) ?

[Quiet_Ivy]

Before I scrap the tank... I am thinking about doing one more thing...

Removing fish and dosing phyto and copepods.

If nothing eats the copepods, they will reproduce like crazy no? And eat all the dinos.

I feel like it's hard to get a good population of pods if you have fish like wrasses that eat them like no tomorrow

You could also put dry sand in. That will kick of a diatom bloom.

Are you in Canada? I can send you some potassium nitrate to raise nitrates. Perhaps we can go halfs on a bottle of Dino X. They've really raised the price on that stuff, it was $20 6 months ago.

Dosing nitrate's actually working for me. I can tell when NO3 hits about 0.2; the dinos start up on the glass, displacing the green algae. Raising potassium is a bit concerning but I've only had to dose to 2 or 3ppm nitrate to see the switch from dinos to green algae.

The rescue corals are hanging in there. Montis look awful, but that is probably half my terrible lights. Amazingly the snails, cowrie and conch are all fine. It's only been a week but I *really* hope this high nitrate trick will keep them alive.

Under the microscope Ostreopsis is becoming far more scarce, but the tiny near-bacterial sucker is present in all samples. I can't see anything but goo off my glass, still.

Here's the little suspicious guy. This is at 1000X. Doesn't look like a cell here, but it moves around so it's not debris.
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q561/Quiet_Ivy/28g%20Reef%20Tank/September%20pics/fb120dab-a3e7-45f6-907c-a7fd86118e3f_zpsmzsili4f.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/Quiet_Ivy/media/28g%20Reef%20Tank/September%20pics/fb120dab-a3e7-45f6-907c-a7fd86118e3f_zpsmzsili4f.jpg.html)

Suspicious microbe is suspicious. This is the outside of the above thing. Possibly a spore?

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q561/Quiet_Ivy/28g%20Reef%20Tank/September%20pics/spore_zpsisynvqkw.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/Quiet_Ivy/media/28g%20Reef%20Tank/September%20pics/spore_zpsisynvqkw.jpg.html)

Posting may be random this week, more house sitting.

ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

When I first set up my tank, I populated it with just pods and glass shrimp for months! It's great.

Saw your video in the other thread, that's incredibly cool! Where did you get the shrimp, and do you know which species they are?

ivy

[karimwassef]

Reefs2go calls them glass feeder shrimp. They're marine.

[Billybatz9]

You could also put dry sand in. That will kick of a diatom bloom.

Are you in Canada? I can send you some potassium nitrate to raise nitrates. Perhaps we can go halfs on a bottle of Dino X. They've really raised the price on that stuff, it was $20 6 months ago.
ivy

I am In US, Florida.... way far from you lol

[emerald crab]

Dino X worked for me, it took about 5-6 doses(that's 10-12 days).

[EvMiBo]

I've used Dino X too, actually, Algae X but FM has basically said it's the same thing but rebranded. It worked, but there were some cons for me. A few sps frags died, those that lived lost color. I went through the highest dose too though. If I could do it again I'd culture and dose benthic copepods until I felt they needed phyto.

[emerald crab]

I vent through the trouble of measuring my tank and sump, calculated the real volume of water and dosed as per product manual. I had no loses or significant discoloration. Only on one of the corals I had some minimal discoloration, the rest not affected. The urchins on the other hand, did not die, but were quite a bit affected.

[Cyberdude]

I actually got my zoas to open after being closed for 4 months day after I started dosing. They haven't closed since. All of my sps showed much better PE. Non of my love stock were affected. Lost my urchin but I suspect it wasn't the dinox. He hadn't had much to eat in 4 months. I think a diet of dinos killed him.

[Billybatz9]

Does anyone live in the US that's battling this algae that might want to go half and half on the fauna marin dino x?

[garygonzales]

its not really that expensive like about 30.00 dollars..thats not bad if it works

[Billybatz9]

its not really that expensive like about 30.00 dollars..thats not bad if it works

And if it doesn't?? It's very expensive. lol

[Dfee]

Billy, have you tried nitrates above 3 and pods and phyto yet? I strongly recommend that first? It took me a while to try myself, as I was a bit skeptical. I honestly couldn't believe how quick it worked. Also I remember you said you cut back on feedings.... Do the opposite. Feed more. Where are your nitrates at?

[Cyberdude]

+ 1 on feed more. Pods came back. Watching the Dino's die. Fox face is finally eating green algae on rocks again

[Billybatz9]

Billy, have you tried nitrates above 3 and pods and phyto yet? I strongly recommend that first? It took me a while to try myself, as I was a bit skeptical. I honestly couldn't believe how quick it worked. Also I remember you said you cut back on feedings.... Do the opposite. Feed more. Where are your nitrates at?

+ 1 on feed more. Pods came back. Watching the Dino's die. Fox face is finally eating green algae on rocks again

How much am I supposed to feed? Won't over feeding fuel dinos?

[Dfee]

No. Dirty tank (nutrient rich) will support the whole food chain, especially the bottom. That will compete AND eat Dino's. Dino's thrive in "bottom of food chain depleted" systems

... Ha. I think that made sense...

[Ser Davos]

Day 12 or 13 of h202 dosing. Very little to no dino growth so far during photo period, my rock and sand look amazing. I have a shipment of chaeto/pods arriving on Thursday. I'm wondering if I should make tonight or tomorrow night my last dose of h202 for a bit... its kind of scary stopping but I don't want it to affect the copepods. It's also been 3 weeks with no water change... should I do one soon?

[Dfee]

Day 12 or 13 of h202 dosing. Very litttle to no dino growth so far during photo period, my rock and sand look amazing. I have a shipment of chaeto/pods arriving on Thursday. I'm wondering if I should make tonight or tomorrow night my last dose of h202 for a bit... its kind of scary stopping but I don't want it to affect the copepods. It's also been 3 weeks with no water change... should I do one soon?


Not til you have to. I haven't done one in months. Too risky and I don't see the need. Not til my levels get too high anyways

[BigJohnny]

What phyto should I dose?

I think I may have a little dino

[Dfee]

Right now I dose the concentrated stuff. ( I think the dead stuff). When I started I found a fish store that cultured and sold the live stuff in the light green water. Not sure on brands, sorry

[EvMiBo]

What phyto should I dose?

I think I'm beginning to get dinos

From my understanding phyto is actually food. I think you would want to dose benthic copepods (Tisbe biminiensis). You could dose some phyto after the dinos recede to keep pod populations high. Here are a couple links from a couple pages back.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/276657-the-pod-farm/
http://www.orafarm.com/product/pods-tisbe/

[Dfee]

From my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you really only need to dose phyto. Pod population will go up and down with their supply of food (and pretty quick too).

[EvMiBo]

He probably needs to get a good population of pods going first though?

[Dfee]

He probably needs to get a good population of pods going first though?


Yes, probably. When I first started dosing, I bought pods from the same lfs that I got the phyto from. ... Just in case the the Dino environment completely decimated my pods. ... Though I think that is unlikely to have 0 pods.

[Billybatz9]

Where does everyone buy their copepods from?

[Dfee]

I heard all the online stores that would ship to you suck. Can you get some cheato or a chunk of liverock from someone? Other than that, just dose phyto daily and your pod population should go up

[BigJohnny]

I have pods, I added a mixed benthic and pelagic culture as well as amphipods from sachs aquaculture. I just need phyto for them and for the other micro good guys

[EvMiBo]

I'm not convinced pelagic species last long in aquariums with fish, protein skimmers, filter socks, etc. Benthic tisbe seems to be the ticket. Amphipods eat copepods though. Why feed tisbe copepods phytoplankton right off the bat if they are detrivores that also consume dinos? They can feed on phytoplankton too, but I think that should only be an option when you can't visibly see food sources. Just an opinion, I'm sure there's more than one way to skin the cat.

[Billybatz9]

Does anyone know if dinoflagellates kills copepods? If they kill inverts, how do they not kill copepods If they eat them

[karimwassef]

My smallest snails and hermit crabs didn't die from dinos. My largest snails and big sea hare died immediately.

I think scale does matter. The larger herbivores may stir up a more potent chemical response for a larger population of dinos than the smaller predators who are attacking a minute quantity at a time?

[EvMiBo]

"Dinoflagellates are eaten more by copepods than by any other organism."

" The results show that Ceratium provides a suitable food
source for advanced copepodite instars and adult cyclopoid copepods, although it is not a preferred food source"

"Copepods limited to K. brevis ate 480% as much as those fed only R. lens, suggesting that copepods attempted to compensate for low food quality with increased quantity ingested."

These are all different species of copepods and dinoflaggelates, but maybe what we can take away from it is that copepods in our aquariums might not want to eat dino's, but will. Would love to find an article about tisbe eating dinos.

Source1 (http://www.mbari.org/staff/conn/botany/dinos/ecology.htm)
Source2 (http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/3/323.full.pdf)
Source3 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16261377)

[Billybatz9]

Just dose 30 ml of phytoplankton into tank. Let's see how this experiment goes. Hoe many days should I dose until I see a Chang in dinos?

[BigJohnny]

I'm not convinced pelagic species last long in aquariums with fish, protein skimmers, filter socks, etc. Benthic tisbe seems to be the ticket. Amphipods eat copepods though. Why feed tisbe copepods phytoplankton right off the bat if they are detrivores that also consume dinos? They can feed on phytoplankton too, but I think that should only be an option when you can't visibly see food sources. Just an opinion, I'm sure there's more than one way to skin the cat.

All I asked was for a good source of phyto that people use, that's it. Can someone please tell me? I'm not interested in defending why I want it, that's not why I asked that question.

[karimwassef]

I use phytoplex and let it sit with some selcon first.

[BigJohnny]

I use phytoplex and let it sit with some selcon first.
Thank you

[Dfee]

Reef nutrition - Phyto Feast

[BigJohnny]

Reef nutrition - Phyto Feast
Phyto feast or phyto feast live?

[Dfee]

I just use the regular. It's super concentrated. Either would be fine though I bet

[BigJohnny]

I just use the regular. It's super concentrated. Either would be fine though I bet
Cool thanks. Do you use it to culture seperately or just dose your tank. Do you have dino?

[EvMiBo]

All I asked was for a good source of phyto that people use, that's it. Can someone please tell me? I'm not interested in defending why I want it, that's not why I asked that question.

apologies, just get caught up in discussion sometimes.
starting culture from
https://algaebarn.com/product/oceanmagik-live-phytoplankton/