Ats & iron.

[NubbsJRN]

For those of you running a ATS, how many of you dose iron and what is your target level for iron?

All of the arrivals I could find are over two years old and I want to make sure the thinking has not changed.

Thanks!

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[Scrubber_steve]

what is your purpose in adding iron?

[homer1475]

Iron, no. and my ATS grows very well.

[Subsea]

https://www.marineplantbook.com/marinebookpage10.htm

For certain, iron is required by all photosynthetic organisms to grow. For certain, “when photosynthetic organisms grow, they are not limited in growth by the most abundant nutrient but by the least abundant”.

With that out of the way, I dose iron in all of my reef tanks and I do not operate an ATS. I do not measure, so I can’t give you the number you want. I suggest you google Randy Holmes Farley on iron dosing in reef tanks. If I were seeking knowledge on chemistry in reef tanks, I would go to him for information.

In my 25 year old 30G mud/cryptic sponge refugium, I have a section with iron rich substrate from Seachem.

[nereefpat]

Man, people sure love RHF. Here is a link to one of his write-ups:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

It's really hard to test for, since natural seawater has a concentration that is several decimal places away from even 1 part per billion...But

"Deciding how much iron to add is fairly easy because, in my experience, it doesn't seem to matter too much. Presumably, once you add enough to eliminate it as a limiting nutrient, extra iron does not cause apparent harm (at least that I've detected in my aquarium or have heard of from others). I dose about 0.1 to 0.3 mL of a solution containing 5 g of iron (as 25 g of ferrous sulfate heptahydrate) in 250 mL of water containing 50.7 g of sodium citrate dihydrate. I presently dose once per week to my system with a total water volume of about 200 gallons. This iron(II) citrate turns brown and cloudy over time, but I still use it. " RHF

[ca1ore]

I've been dosing iron for years. Mostly to encourage chaeto growth, though I do also run an ATS. I dose very sparingly as Fe is tough to test for.

[NubbsJRN]

Thanks for the input!

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[Subsea]

I will address extra iron as described as an “iron storage mechanism” by Randy.

In one macro growout tumble culture of Gracilaria Hayi, I added iron and got a dramatic color change over night from orange to red. Within a week, I noticed a change in the thickness of the leaves. The Hayi had quadrupled in leaf thickness and felt spongy to the touch. After withholding iron for a few weeks, the leaves returned to original thickness and was lightly calcified.

[zooman72]

I've been dosing iron for years. Mostly to encourage chaeto growth, though I do also run an ATS. I dose very sparingly as Fe is tough to test for.

Same here, although I do not run an ATS. I have noticed that not only did my chaetomorpha grow better it seems (anecdotal of course), but it was a darker green, and lightened noticeably when I did not dose iron (using Brightwell Aquatics Ferrion currently).

[Pet Detective]

I add Kent Marine Iron & Manganese, 2 cap fulls every water change, all photosynthetic creatures benefit from it.

[Scrubber_steve]

what is your purpose in adding iron?

The reason I asked this question was to know if either 1, you were wanting to add iron because you think you have to to grow macro-algae, or 2, if you were wanting to add it for other reasons?

From Randy (https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/10/chemistry)- The topics discussed in this article serve to support the contention that there is little reason to add iron in the absence of macroalgae. end

I've used a scrubber consistantly for a couple of years, and until recently, never dosed iron. The algae grew fine, and did the job, without dosing it. There's enough iron in the food added to the tank.

If your keeping a macro tank, with lots of algae, there's a case for adding it.

I recently started using aquaforest, make your own Balling method elements supliments, & iron is part of the trace additives. I used a half recommended dose & a full dose & saw no difference in algae growth on my "ATS".
:beer:

[NubbsJRN]

I have a 150 gallon tank and have cheato, some red macro and have recently added a large ATS. I have been thinking about starting to dose iron and have been reading arrivals on it. Just wanted to hear people's thoughts as the arrivals I am reading could be outdated. My goal is to have healty cheato, red macro, and hair (only in the ats)

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[Pet Detective]

Yes, Macro Algae & I'm a creature of habit, been adding it for years with no adverse affects and it's inexpensive, so I continue to do so...maybe it's a waste of time but my cheato went from a lighter green to a darker green when I began adding iron years ago.

I do not run an Algae Turf Scrubber.

[Subsea]

Anybody that has added iron to their lawn will have noticed that Greens darkened up. I see it in my garden as well.

[Subsea]

The reason I asked this question was to know if either 1, you were wanting to add iron because you think you have to to grow macro-algae, or 2, if you were wanting to add it for other reasons?

From Randy (https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/10/chemistry)- The topics discussed in this article serve to support the contention that there is little reason to add iron in the absence of macroalgae. end

I've used a scrubber consistantly for a couple of years, and until recently, never dosed iron. The algae grew fine, and did the job, without dosing it. There's enough iron in the food added to the tank.

If your keeping a macro tank, with lots of algae, there's a case for adding it.

I recently started using aquaforest, make your own Balling method elements supliments, & iron is part of the trace additives. I used a half recommended dose & a full dose & saw no difference in algae growth on my "ATS".
:beer:

Why is the algae on your ATS not macro algae? If micro algae is phytoplankton and everything else is macro algae: turf, hair, slime, utilitarian and ornamental.

[Scrubber_steve]

Why is the algae on your ATS not macro algae? If micro algae is phytoplankton and everything else is macro algae: turf, hair, slime, utilitarian and ornamental.

It is a macro-alga - ulva. I never said it wasn't a macro-alga growing on my screen?

[ca1ore]

I add iron to my system because I was having issues growing chaeto. Played around with lighting, to no avail; but when I started dosing iron growth resumed.

[Scrubber_steve]

I add iron to my system because I was having issues growing chaeto. Played around with lighting, to no avail; but when I started dosing iron growth resumed.

I'd imagine that iron would benifit some algae more than others, especially the fleshier algae species.

[NubbsJRN]

I have always been of the thinking that you should not dose things you do not measure however from everything I am hearing this seems to possible be an exception to that for a lot of people.

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[Scrubber_steve]

I have always been of the thinking that you should not dose things you do not measure however from everything I am hearing this seems to possible be an exception to that for a lot of people.

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Its taken up pretty quickly. Dose sparingly & no need to measure.

[ca1ore]

Why is the algae on your ATS not macro algae? If micro algae is phytoplankton and everything else is macro algae: turf, hair, slime, utilitarian and ornamental.

Hah, never really thought of GHA as a macro.

[Scrubber_steve]

Hah, never really thought of GHA as a macro.

You probably have a species of ulva (enteromorpha) on your screen anyway :spin2:

[ca1ore]

It's a mix of both actually.

[Subsea]

Twin,
I feed heavily with live oysters, frozen foods and flakes. I have been adding ammonia to all of my tanks.

Do you think that the uptake of nitrogen reflects the optimum growth rate of macro as compared to the Redfield Ratio.

[Scrubber_steve]

Twin,
I feed heavily with live oysters, frozen foods and flakes. I have been adding ammonia to all of my tanks.

Do you think that the uptake of nitrogen reflects the optimum growth rate of macro as compared to the Redfield Ratio.

We discussed this in another thread sub -

The atomic ratio C:N:P in phytoplankton is 106C:16N:1P, while bethnic plants (mean of 92 species) on average have a somewhat higher ratio of 550C:30N:1P. These ratios indicate that many seaweeds are more prone to N limitation than phytoplankton.
The ratio of two nutrients that is required for maximal growth of a seaweed is called the optimum ratio. As stated above, the average N:P ratio for seaweeds is 30N:1P with a range from 10:1 to 80:1
http://sailing-sea-farm.com/onewebme...v%C3%A6kst.pdf

Why do you dose ammonia? Are you growing macroalgae for a purpose other than filtration?

[Subsea]

I grow Dragons Tongue as an ornamental macro. I sell it to LFS. I also have clams in several tanks which benefit from it as do corals that prefer ammonia over nitrate.

[Scrubber_steve]

I grow Dragons Tongue as an ornamental macro. I sell it to LFS. I also have clams in several tanks which benefit from it as do corals that prefer ammonia over nitrate.

Of course, in aquarium water, because the ammonia/ammonium ratio is a function of pH,
ammonia is almost totally converted to ammonium,
and algae assimilate nitrogen from ammonium most easily.

I'd imagine all photosynthesizing organisms, including corals do too?

Do you dose ammonium phosphate to grow the Dragon Tongue?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/images/Resize-Wizard-1.gif

[Subsea]

I get enough phosphate coming in with the food. I feed heavy with raw oysters, frozen food and flakes. In fact, to get rid of cynobacteria, I dosed ammonia to uptake phosphate to starve Cynobacteria.

With respect to a complete fertilizer cocktail, I am awaiting on a a complete macro algae dry formula from Florida Aqua Farms, the authority on F2 Guillard formula for phytoplankton. They have a blend for a macro only tank and a blend for a normal reef tank with macro. The reef tank blend does nor have phosphate or nitrogen in it.

[NubbsJRN]

Time to test :) I know some said no need but I want to have a base line before starting to dose.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/e4abe84b62bbfe183f9e9c7f1c9c8f5e.jpg

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[Kevin Guthrie]

I'm a bit puzzled. Am I missing something?

I have an algae scrubber. The purpose of the scrubber is to limit the resources available to algae growing in the tank. The purpose of the scrubber is not to grow algae - that is it's mechanism for achieving it's purpose. So to me it would not make sense to add nutrients to make it grow more or healthier algae because that would defeat its purpose, RHF's 2nd reason notwithstanding. Right?

If otoh my coral was doing poorly (it is doing quite well, thank you) and I could narrow it down to lack of iron, that would be a good reason to add iron.

[Scrubber_steve]

I'm a bit puzzled. Am I missing something?

I have an algae scrubber. The purpose of the scrubber is to limit the resources available to algae growing in the tank. The purpose of the scrubber is not to grow algae - that is it's mechanism for achieving it's purpose. So to me it would not make sense to add nutrients to make it grow more or healthier algae because that would defeat its purpose, RHF's 2nd reason notwithstanding. Right?

If otoh my coral was doing poorly (it is doing quite well, thank you) and I could narrow it down to lack of iron, that would be a good reason to add iron.

Yes.
If your scrubber wasn't reducing no3 & po4 effectively, & iron was the limiting nutrient, that would be a reason to dose it.

[Kevin Guthrie]

Look at why we want to reduce nitrate and phosphate; we do it to limit algae growth. If algae is not growing because there is not enough iron, then if we add iron algae growth will increase. But it won't just increase in the scrubber, right? It will also increase in the tank.

I have a scrubber to reduce algae growth in the tank. IMO fertilizing with the limiting nutrient defeats the purpose.

[NubbsJRN]

You guys are correct. I am considering dosing iron for over all improvement in my macros and corals. Currently I do not believe iron is the limiting nutrient that keeps hair put of my display. If I find that I am getting hair algae in my display I will either lower the dose or stop.

On of the other things that is driving this thought for me: I want to use the ATS as nutrient export. The more / faster / better I can get it to grow the more export I will have.

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[Scrubber_steve]

Look at why we want to reduce nitrate and phosphate; we do it to limit algae growth. If algae is not growing because there is not enough iron, then if we add iron algae growth will increase. But it won't just increase in the scrubber, right? It will also increase in the tank.

I have a scrubber to reduce algae growth in the tank. IMO fertilizing with the limiting nutrient defeats the purpose.

The purpose of a scrubber is to remove inorganic nitrogen & phosphate, and keep them at low levels to create a healthy environment for fish, inverts & corals.
It does this by growing algae, not by not growing algae.
If inorganic nutrient target levels are not being achieved, and a low level of iron is identified as limiting scrubber algae growth, the problem is, the scrubber is not filtering the water to its full potential.

On the other hand, if you are adding any element that is necessary for photosynthesis, because nutrient export is not occurring at a rate to maintain low levels,
and that causes algae growth in the display rather than in the scrubber, then the scrubber is too small for the nutrient load.

[NubbsJRN]

I have 168 square inches lighted on both sides for around a 200 gallon total system.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/398a58990c9ef6ffe4eb37d186513f33.jpg

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