Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Blogs FAQ Calendar

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 04/15/2010, 09:56 AM   #1
Kengar
Registered Member
 
Kengar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area)
Posts: 1,970
Bad News Re LED Lighting: Another Orbitech patent application has been allowed.

Just a heads up. One of Orbitech's three pending patent applications has recently been allowed (April 7). They have not yet paid the issue fee, which they must do in order for the application to be issued/granted as an enforceable patent.

One of the allowed claims is this one:

26. (Previously Presented) A lighting system for marine growth in a marine habitat having an open top, comprising:

a housing disposed over the open top ofthe marine habitat; and
an LED light source disposed on an inner side ofthe housing facing the open top of the marine habitat, the LED light source comprising at least one light engine having a plurality of individual LEDs, the LED light source is a main source oflighting to the marine habitat.


I note that a request for reexamination of one of their two issued patents (the one they sued PFO on) has been filed, but reexamination has not yet been granted. Given the type of request for reexamination that was filed, the requesting party is anonymous. More details to follow as they become available.

(Yes, I am a patent attorney.)



Last edited by Kengar; 04/15/2010 at 10:25 AM. Reason: clarification
Kengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 10:07 AM   #2
iamwhatiam52
Registered Member
 
iamwhatiam52's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Freeport, NY
Posts: 1,466
HUH?

They can lay claim to the concept of using LED's on a salt water tank as if no one thought of this but them?


__________________
Occupation: Need one. Will work for salt.

Current Tank Info: 180 mixed up reef started April 2005. 4 small tanks on same sump.
iamwhatiam52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 10:11 AM   #3
mcoomer
Rat Bastard!
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sammamish, WA
Posts: 1,487
Greedy bastards. They've already killed one of the greatest lighting suppliers ever. Now what! I guarantee you it will be a cold day in hell before I buy one of their products.


mcoomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 10:12 AM   #4
alcove
Moved On
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Jax beach ,FL
Posts: 80
what a bunch of clowns, lets see what they do now that there is more than just pfo to jump on.


alcove is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 10:42 AM   #5
SWINGRRRR
Premium Member
 
SWINGRRRR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pcola FL
Posts: 2,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiam52 View Post
HUH?

They can lay claim to the concept of using LED's on a salt water tank as if no one thought of this but them?
Google Orbitech and PFO. The original story is not new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoomer View Post
I guarantee you it will be a cold day in hell before I buy one of their products.
Thats the crap of it. THEY DONT MAKE AQUARIUM LED LIGHTS!! They plan too since 2009, but never had. The patent killed it for anyone else making a P-N-P LED fixture.
I hope Mr. Crabb, rots in you know where. Hes set LED aquarium tech back 20 years.


__________________
Have you ever tried to hold a monkey still if it is not drunk ~ insteng

Current Tank Info: 45gal Rimless mixed reef--SWC 150BMK--2xMP10ESW--Giesemann 150W HQI
SWINGRRRR is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 11:00 AM   #6
sslak
Registered Member
 
sslak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoomer View Post
Greedy bastards. They've already killed one of the greatest lighting suppliers ever. Now what! I guarantee you it will be a cold day in hell before I buy one of their products.
This.

I would love to see them market a line of aquarium lighting specifically so I can enjoy the satisfaction of NOT buying it.


__________________
Steve

Current Tank Info: 58 Oceanic/20g Sump/250w XM 20k/2x39w T5 True Actinic 03/2010 Reef Octopus NW Cone Skimmer
sslak is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 11:14 AM   #7
dogstar74
Premium Member
 
dogstar74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,152
Hypotheticaly

I'm developing an LED light that is for...... oh yeah, accent lighting on an interior wall. Strangely enough this light has the perfect spectrum for growing photosynthetic organisms. But I can't by law tell you that. It's great if you want your wall color to have a slight actinic cool lighting scheme. It's about 60% royal blues and 40% high intesity whites. Although it's perfect for growing corals, this is an accent light for an interior wall.

Strangely enough, we designed it just under 24" in length. And next week we'll send to production a model that's just 30" in length. Or two units can be placed together to span any particular 48 inch area. Just in case you need to.

End of hypothetical rant.

The truth is, we've been using off label items in this hobby for a very long time. LEDs are not going away. The process is what is being patented here. But the guy that developed the Metal halide light for parking lots and gymnasiums could not have intended that the lights would be used in the aquarium trade.

I wouldn't be too upset about this, fact is, most of these lights are over priced simply because they are used in aquariums. (specialty market). It won't be too long till all these cases of defending that patent becomes too costly for the company, and they'll focus more energy on having an original idea rather than who beat who to the punch line.

Just my .02


__________________
"If there's nothing wrong with me... then there must be something wrong with the universe!"

Current Tank Info: 10 gallon nano with ATS
dogstar74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 11:16 AM   #8
Santoki
Shimmer Addict
 
Santoki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 619
What I don't understand is how a patent which claims exclusivity over the use of a technology for a specific purpose is allowed. Isn't this synonymous to patenting the use of computers for say... the specific purpose of .. watching movies, playing games,
or filing a patent for using LEDs in cars etc.. I could go on and on.
Maybe I should file a patent for use of LEDs to light my kitchen, or wait, maybe patenting the use of florescents over a marine habitat?
-R


Santoki is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 11:22 AM   #9
SWINGRRRR
Premium Member
 
SWINGRRRR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pcola FL
Posts: 2,504
Didnt the patent say something about a controller as well? That was the hit to PFO. I wonder if there could be a fixture without a controller and not violate the patent. Hmm, wheres a good patent attorney when you need one?


__________________
Have you ever tried to hold a monkey still if it is not drunk ~ insteng

Current Tank Info: 45gal Rimless mixed reef--SWC 150BMK--2xMP10ESW--Giesemann 150W HQI
SWINGRRRR is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 11:32 AM   #10
Kengar
Registered Member
 
Kengar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area)
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWINGRRRR View Post
Hmm, wheres a good patent attorney when you need one?
Right here.


Kengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 11:37 AM   #11
SWINGRRRR
Premium Member
 
SWINGRRRR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pcola FL
Posts: 2,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kengar View Post
Right here.
So what about the guy a couple post up? Can you do that, just name it something else? And what about no controller, controller thing? Any ideas?


__________________
Have you ever tried to hold a monkey still if it is not drunk ~ insteng

Current Tank Info: 45gal Rimless mixed reef--SWC 150BMK--2xMP10ESW--Giesemann 150W HQI
SWINGRRRR is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 11:41 AM   #12
Amoore311
Registered Member
 
Amoore311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ulster County, NY
Posts: 2,521
I don't see this as a big deal either tbh. The fixtures were over priced when PFO was selling them, and they will stay that way for a while simply because it's a niche market product.

This patent wouldn't stop all of the DIY that's going on right now with LED's. Those DIY'ing the fixtures just wouldn't be able to sell them for a profit.


__________________
30 Gallon FOWLR 2004-2006
90 Gallon LPS Reef 2006-2008
180 Gallon SPS Reef 2008-20012
100 Gallon Custom Rimless Mixed Reef 2012-2014
29 Gallon Biocube Reef! Current

Current Tank Info: 29 Gallon Biocube, StevesLED Upgrade, Neptune Apex
Amoore311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 12:50 PM   #13
buffalo123
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,092
How do i get in on this action? I could get a few patents and wait for someone to manufacturer it. Then Sue CHA CHING $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Look like we been here before


buffalo123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 12:57 PM   #14
Bzar
Registered Member
 
Bzar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 227
American patent? Global Economy?


Bzar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 01:13 PM   #15
evilc66
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoore311 View Post
I don't see this as a big deal either tbh. The fixtures were over priced when PFO was selling them, and they will stay that way for a while simply because it's a niche market product.

This patent wouldn't stop all of the DIY that's going on right now with LED's. Those DIY'ing the fixtures just wouldn't be able to sell them for a profit.
Actually, it might be a big deal even for DIYers. Building your own does not necessarily protect you from the patent. With the latest round of patents being pushed through, the use of any LED system for the growth and support of marine life will be in violation, regardless of who builds it. Granted, Orbitech isn't going to go after the average hobbyist, but they could single a few people out to make examples of them. Cease and desist orders will come long before lawsuits start getting handed out.

As for the cost, it's got nothing really to do with the fact that this is a niche market. The basic materials that you need is still expensive. Granted, DIY is cheaper, but the extra cost goes into a lot of tooling, engineering, and materials. If you think that LED fixtures are the only aquarium lights that are over priced, look at the basic material costs of a metal halide system. $50 in raw materials (bulb, ballast, reflector, socket, sheet metal) quickly becomes a $300 pendant.


evilc66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 02:29 PM   #16
GreshamH
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 9,474
Thanks for Chiming in evilC66


__________________
Gresham
_______________________________
Feeding your reef...one polyp at a time
GreshamH is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 05:02 PM   #17
Variansyn
Registered Member
 
Variansyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Fairfield / Vallejo, CA
Posts: 69
Trying to wrap my mind around this. Does this essentially mean that Marineland, Pac Sun and a couple other companies won't be able to sell their units, or units similar to their patent ?


Variansyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 05:04 PM   #18
NyReefNoob
skimmer freak
 
NyReefNoob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: peekskill, ny
Posts: 1,209
patent owt affect diy, as long as your not producing and selling


__________________
custom 45g cube all in one, ai hydra 26, 2 mp10w, ac jr. ,bubble magnus triple doser, bm nac5 hob skimmer

My dad always said the only stupid questions are the ones not asked

Current Tank Info: custom 45g cube AIO
NyReefNoob is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 06:08 PM   #19
shaunt
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Visalia,CA
Posts: 189
I think maxspect (chinese company I believe) will tell them put their patent where the sun don't shine


shaunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 06:42 PM   #20
davidtsx
Registered Member
 
davidtsx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 272
I know this subject way to well. My brother is a patent attorney and is one of the head guys at the patent office. I was speaking to him a while ago about the patent that Orbitech had received and after doing a ton of research I found a lot of information for them to perform a patent review dated back two years before the submission of the patent application. So I submitted to a well know editor and for what I know he is one of the people that paid the thousand dollar fee in order to have the patent reexamined. I hope it's beat, but who knows. The reason this patent got undermine skin was because I wanted to do a DIY LED setup, but you will be effected by this even doing a DIY. They even have a patent on the controller.


davidtsx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 06:46 PM   #21
davidtsx
Registered Member
 
davidtsx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 272
Forgot to subscribe.


davidtsx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 07:13 PM   #22
tahiriqbal
Sialkot
 
tahiriqbal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Manchester England UK
Posts: 684
I think the whole fuss is all about the use of controller along with LEDs. I hope my touch screen controller is beyond their patent rights since we are based in the UK . I have already checked with the UK patent office regarding the use of controller with LED lighting systems with good news. This patent only applys to the USA so Orbitech can suck my .....I better not say.......


__________________
Tahir Iqbal
Manchester UK

Current Tank Info: 56cm x 56cm x 56cm
tahiriqbal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 08:55 PM   #23
Variansyn
Registered Member
 
Variansyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Fairfield / Vallejo, CA
Posts: 69
Touch Screen ?

Do tell sir. Do tell.


Variansyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 09:19 PM   #24
returnofsid
Registered Member
 
returnofsid's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 3,852
The specific patent, that ended up putting PFO out of business, was NOT just about using LEDs for aquariums. It was about using LEDs, along with a specific type of Controller, for aquariums.


returnofsid is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/15/2010, 10:18 PM   #25
evilc66
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyReefNoob View Post
patent owt affect diy, as long as your not producing and selling
Don't be so sure of that. Any production of an item that uses patented technology or ideas is still in violation, whether you sell it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunt View Post
I think maxspect (chinese company I believe) will tell them put their patent where the sun don't shine
Importing it personally from overseas is one way to get around the issue, for now. If anyone tries to import these in bulk, they could be in trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Variansyn View Post
Trying to wrap my mind around this. Does this essentially mean that Marineland, Pac Sun and a couple other companies won't be able to sell their units, or units similar to their patent ?
Pretty much. Pacific Sun is getting around it by selling them as hydroponic lights, even though they are ment for aquariums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofsid View Post
The specific patent, that ended up putting PFO out of business, was NOT just about using LEDs for aquariums. It was about using LEDs, along with a specific type of Controller, for aquariums.
That was only part of the patent, and probably the only part that Orbitech had a solid case against PFO. These continuances on the patent, if I'm reading them right, will make any light that is powerful enough to support marine life (that includes algae BTW) in violation. Ken, please correct me here if I'm wrong.


evilc66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2025 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2025 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.