Continuous feeding NPS filter feeders - Page 10

Bongo Shrimp · 01/11/2012, 06:21 PM

Ok I wasn't clear- A pump in the tank will constantly push water through the loop (out of the tank, into the fridge, and then back out. In the fridge, a t-splitter will be in the loop and the feeder pumps will feed into the T-connector. That way food never sits in the loop. Get it? I'll make a diagram.

Bongo Shrimp · 01/11/2012, 06:48 PM

Here's a 5min sketch.

dzhuo · 01/12/2012, 11:20 AM

Sounds like a good plan.

What brand is the fridge and are there any model or serial number you can find? How do you plan to get the rubber tubing into the fridge?

slapshot · 01/12/2012, 12:16 PM

A T will only work if you have a back flow preventer on the input side. The pressure of the loop will push back on the paristallic pump and your system will not work. Instead of a T you need a Venturi.

slapshot · 01/12/2012, 02:06 PM

Does that make sense Gordon?

Bongo Shrimp · 01/12/2012, 02:34 PM

yeah but I thought we determined the mysis will clog it up. So it won't work?

slapshot · 01/12/2012, 03:06 PM

Right, you have to find a venturi to inject the food. That way the pressure wont back feed. I'll look around, even a backwards Y connector would be better than a T. Plus without a backflow preventor you run the risk of breaking a tube in the pump and causing a leak because iut will be under pressure. Let me think about this.

Bongo Shrimp · 01/12/2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapshot

Right, you have to find a venturi to inject the food. That way the pressure wont back feed. I'll look around, even a backwards Y connector would be better than a T. Plus without a backflow preventor you run the risk of breaking a tube in the pump and causing a leak because iut will be under pressure. Let me think about this.

Ok thanks cause idk anything about plumbing.

herring_fish · 01/12/2012, 04:10 PM

Is there such a thing as a back flow stop valve at that scale and made of plastic that would be reliable?

PS ...or could you use a peristaltic pump instead of a powerhead to create less pressure and flow?

slapshot · 01/12/2012, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herring_fish

Is there such a thing as a back flow stop valve at that scale and made of plastic that would be reliable?

PS ...or could you use a peristaltic pump instead of a powerhead to create less pressure and flow?

Yes, they are made for pool chemical insertion equipment. Also, you can find them at most pet stores. They sell them for air pumps from the old days when you had to worry about water getting into your air pump from undergravel filters.

nivram · 01/14/2012, 08:38 PM

What about putting your pump on a timer or programming it to only run after the dosers have injected food into the return line?

Bongo Shrimp · 01/14/2012, 08:41 PM

Because the water in the loop will still go up the food line into the peristaltic pump. The food will clog the proper sized back-flow preventer.

slapshot · 01/15/2012, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nivram

What about putting your pump on a timer or programming it to only run after the dosers have injected food into the return line?

If you stop the flow in the loop hydrogen sulfide will develop. After playing with a number of test options the only one that works with something as large as whole mysis, is to dump it into the tank. This will limit your distance from the refrigerator and the display. Unless you want to build a full 1/2 loop, but I think your space limits your pump size so I'm not sure that is possible.

nivram · 01/15/2012, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapshot

If you stop the flow in the loop hydrogen sulfide will develop. After playing with a number of test options the only one that works with something as large as whole mysis, is to dump it into the tank. This will limit your distance from the refrigerator and the display. Unless you want to build a full 1/2 loop, but I think your space limits your pump size so I'm not sure that is possible.

Ive seen this on a different type of setup used to feed brine shrimp in the main tank and hydrogen sulfide was not an issue. I can see it being an issue if you were only feeding and rinsing once ever couple days. I imagine in a NPS setup you are doing multiple feeding cycles daily.

Aquabacs · 02/10/2012, 12:29 PM

Gordon,
Keep in mind if you decide to go the venturi route; venturi valves are rated a minimum gallon per hour or minute. Having a pump push water through the venturi at less than minimum rated spec makes the valve ineffective and will cause water to flow out the air injection port on the valve.

Mike

herring_fish · 02/10/2012, 02:07 PM

Has anyone actually run into this problem?

My intent is to simply have a bigger peristaltic pump for the water rinse than for the food. I don't know for sure that this will work. I have just assumed that it would. Please give me your thoughts on this. Perhaps I have over looked something.

The water pump uses a bigger diameter tube and the motor is bigger so when the smaller motors run, the back pressure should not affect the upstream pumps. I will just have several "T"s in a row after the water pump and then go to the tank from there. The smaller diameter feeder tubes will flow into the bigger, water pump to tank tubing.

The way that I figure it, the very low flow food pumps will not produce much pressure. I will keep the tubes from the food pumps to the "T"s short, inside the refrigerator. The water pump can be outside the fridge. When the water pump turns on, I am hoping that the circuit (if you will) will see the lowest path of resistance after the "T"s . Hopefully, everything will flow toward the tank and not back up any of the feeder tubes and of course not back up to the water pump when the feeders turn on.

slapshot · 02/10/2012, 02:25 PM

If I understand what you are saying it would work but you need a one way valve after the peristalliic pump. The tubes do rupture. If that happened you would have a leak. If you are just dumping it into the tank it should work. I'm not sure I get what you are trying to do. Feed then wash the line out?

herring_fish · 02/10/2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herring_fish

....In my old design, I have two tubes going to the moving carriage. This idea allows me to just use one.....

Further back in the thread, on 06/08/2011, I created post 206 that this came from.
I want to pump a few different foods to the 6 foot, 6 inch diameter plankton towers (but this could just as well be to a display tank). I would hope that the lowest resistance would be at the open end and not back up the smaller, more viscous feeding tubes.
The smaller pumps would simply deposit food into the bigger tube and the water pump would wash it out right after the other pump(s) shut down. For example, I might pump 1 to 5ml(s) of phyto paste into the tube and 1 to 3ml(s) of something else. Then I would wash it with a quart of water. I would do this every 3 hours.
I use 1 quart because that is the amount that I need to pump into the plankton tower to change 2 gallons out of 7 every day in order to harvest the plankton.
I would do this for each tower( 1 to 6 of them), every three hours so there might be only a few minute rest(5 to 8) before moving on to the next tower. That is way all the automation.

aussiedan · 04/10/2012, 04:17 AM

http://www.spaparts.com.au/products/...22-Barbed.html

Is this a suitable venturi or do you need to go to the more expensive black model?
http://www.spaparts.com.au/products/...52d-Kynar.html

slapshot · 04/10/2012, 07:20 AM

The cheap one is fine.

Wave Ace · 04/10/2012, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiedan

http://www.spaparts.com.au/products/...22-Barbed.html

Is this a suitable venturi or do you need to go to the more expensive black model?
http://www.spaparts.com.au/products/...52d-Kynar.html

Have you got ebay ?

as in the UK you can get them for £30

Aquabacs · 04/11/2012, 08:45 AM

If you have access to the venturi injectors made by Kent, it is a far more cost effective solution.

Mike

aussiedan · 04/11/2012, 02:37 PM

Thanks guys, I've purchased on of the white Mazzei venturi's for the automatic feeding setup.

This is the main component, I even managed to find a fridge with 4 xpre-drilled 6mm holes on each side wall which is the right size for standard aquarium airline tubing. I've not completed any plumbing plans at this stage but will likely run the pipework loop on the external side wall of the fridge so there is only a very small (1cm or less) of non refrigerated line to worry about.

herring_fish · 04/11/2012, 03:20 PM

Very nice! Is that a converted Red Bull fridge that you bought from another reef hobbyist?

This brings me to one of my mistakes and questions. I wanted a glass front a few years ago so I bought a glass front, black beverage cooler. I didn't notice that they only go into the 40's or 50's, not 33 or 34 degrees. I set it aside because I wasn't ready for it yet but now, I am planning to buy a mini-fridge replacement thermostat to replace the one that I have in the cooler.

I have been warned that many of these coolers and fridges are built right to the minimum edge. The unit that I have may be so inefficient that a thermostat my not help. If it does, my bill might me too high. Looking at the construction of the non-glass wall, they look to be the same as a regular fridge in construction and thickness. The compressor is the same and a dorm fridge so I am going to try putting good money after bad.

That is, unless someone that has experience with this talks me out of it. Please ....save me from myself!

aussiedan · 04/11/2012, 03:49 PM

the fridge is actually branded as a coffee fridge (or milk bar) and made so that milk bottles can be kept inside and automatic coffee machines can use milk as required by being pumped from the fridge directly. It is a proper refrigerator and has a compressor and refrigerant inside.

I am still looking at the temps it can achieve and with my very inaccurate thermometer I am getting it to around 5-6 deg Celsius (very low 40's in Fahrenheit) which will hopefully be sufficient..

01/11/2012, 06:21 PM	#226
Bongo Shrimp P. ceratophthalma Join Date: May 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,637	Ok I wasn't clear- A pump in the tank will constantly push water through the loop (out of the tank, into the fridge, and then back out. In the fridge, a t-splitter will be in the loop and the feeder pumps will feed into the T-connector. That way food never sits in the loop. Get it? I'll make a diagram. __________________ 75g Rainfordia Project

01/11/2012, 06:48 PM	#227
Bongo Shrimp P. ceratophthalma Join Date: May 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,637	Here's a 5min sketch. __________________ 75g Rainfordia Project

01/12/2012, 11:20 AM	#228
dzhuo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,338	Sounds like a good plan. What brand is the fridge and are there any model or serial number you can find? How do you plan to get the rubber tubing into the fridge? __________________ One of the most frustrating thing about this hobby? The blind leading the blind.

01/12/2012, 02:34 PM	#231
Bongo Shrimp P. ceratophthalma Join Date: May 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,637	yeah but I thought we determined the mysis will clog it up. So it won't work? __________________ 75g Rainfordia Project

01/12/2012, 04:10 PM	#234
herring_fish Crazy Designer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA Posts: 1,029	Is there such a thing as a back flow stop valve at that scale and made of plastic that would be reliable? PS ...or could you use a peristaltic pump instead of a powerhead to create less pressure and flow? Last edited by herring_fish; 01/12/2012 at 04:16 PM.

01/12/2012, 12:16 PM	#229
slapshot Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan Posts: 1,791	A T will only work if you have a back flow preventer on the input side. The pressure of the loop will push back on the paristallic pump and your system will not work. Instead of a T you need a Venturi.

01/12/2012, 02:06 PM	#230
slapshot Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan Posts: 1,791	Does that make sense Gordon?

01/12/2012, 03:06 PM	#232
slapshot Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan Posts: 1,791	Right, you have to find a venturi to inject the food. That way the pressure wont back feed. I'll look around, even a backwards Y connector would be better than a T. Plus without a backflow preventor you run the risk of breaking a tube in the pump and causing a leak because iut will be under pressure. Let me think about this.

01/14/2012, 08:38 PM	#236
nivram Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: S. FL Posts: 6,194	What about putting your pump on a timer or programming it to only run after the dosers have injected food into the return line?

01/14/2012, 08:41 PM	#237
Bongo Shrimp P. ceratophthalma Join Date: May 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,637	Because the water in the loop will still go up the food line into the peristaltic pump. The food will clog the proper sized back-flow preventer. __________________ 75g Rainfordia Project

02/10/2012, 12:29 PM	#240
Aquabacs Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Yonkers, NY Posts: 1,581	Gordon, Keep in mind if you decide to go the venturi route; venturi valves are rated a minimum gallon per hour or minute. Having a pump push water through the venturi at less than minimum rated spec makes the valve ineffective and will cause water to flow out the air injection port on the valve. Mike __________________ Put down the halide and step into the shade...welcome to the darkside of reefkeeping. FM UltraLith system since 7.3.08 Current Tank Info: 50 gallon rimless non-photosynthetic

02/10/2012, 02:07 PM	#241
herring_fish Crazy Designer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA Posts: 1,029	Has anyone actually run into this problem? My intent is to simply have a bigger peristaltic pump for the water rinse than for the food. I don't know for sure that this will work. I have just assumed that it would. Please give me your thoughts on this. Perhaps I have over looked something. The water pump uses a bigger diameter tube and the motor is bigger so when the smaller motors run, the back pressure should not affect the upstream pumps. I will just have several "T"s in a row after the water pump and then go to the tank from there. The smaller diameter feeder tubes will flow into the bigger, water pump to tank tubing. The way that I figure it, the very low flow food pumps will not produce much pressure. I will keep the tubes from the food pumps to the "T"s short, inside the refrigerator. The water pump can be outside the fridge. When the water pump turns on, I am hoping that the circuit (if you will) will see the lowest path of resistance after the "T"s . Hopefully, everything will flow toward the tank and not back up any of the feeder tubes and of course not back up to the water pump when the feeders turn on.

02/10/2012, 02:25 PM	#242
slapshot Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan Posts: 1,791	If I understand what you are saying it would work but you need a one way valve after the peristalliic pump. The tubes do rupture. If that happened you would have a leak. If you are just dumping it into the tank it should work. I'm not sure I get what you are trying to do. Feed then wash the line out? Last edited by slapshot; 02/10/2012 at 02:32 PM.

04/10/2012, 04:17 AM	#244
aussiedan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 27	http://www.spaparts.com.au/products/...22-Barbed.html Is this a suitable venturi or do you need to go to the more expensive black model? http://www.spaparts.com.au/products/...52d-Kynar.html

04/10/2012, 07:20 AM	#245
slapshot Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan Posts: 1,791	The cheap one is fine.

04/11/2012, 08:45 AM	#247
Aquabacs Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Yonkers, NY Posts: 1,581	If you have access to the venturi injectors made by Kent, it is a far more cost effective solution. Mike __________________ Put down the halide and step into the shade...welcome to the darkside of reefkeeping. FM UltraLith system since 7.3.08 Current Tank Info: 50 gallon rimless non-photosynthetic

04/11/2012, 02:37 PM	#248
aussiedan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 27	Thanks guys, I've purchased on of the white Mazzei venturi's for the automatic feeding setup. This is the main component, I even managed to find a fridge with 4 xpre-drilled 6mm holes on each side wall which is the right size for standard aquarium airline tubing. I've not completed any plumbing plans at this stage but will likely run the pipework loop on the external side wall of the fridge so there is only a very small (1cm or less) of non refrigerated line to worry about.

04/11/2012, 03:20 PM	#249
herring_fish Crazy Designer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA Posts: 1,029	Very nice! Is that a converted Red Bull fridge that you bought from another reef hobbyist? This brings me to one of my mistakes and questions. I wanted a glass front a few years ago so I bought a glass front, black beverage cooler. I didn't notice that they only go into the 40's or 50's, not 33 or 34 degrees. I set it aside because I wasn't ready for it yet but now, I am planning to buy a mini-fridge replacement thermostat to replace the one that I have in the cooler. I have been warned that many of these coolers and fridges are built right to the minimum edge. The unit that I have may be so inefficient that a thermostat my not help. If it does, my bill might me too high. Looking at the construction of the non-glass wall, they look to be the same as a regular fridge in construction and thickness. The compressor is the same and a dorm fridge so I am going to try putting good money after bad. That is, unless someone that has experience with this talks me out of it. Please ....save me from myself!

04/11/2012, 03:49 PM	#250
aussiedan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 27	the fridge is actually branded as a coffee fridge (or milk bar) and made so that milk bottles can be kept inside and automatic coffee machines can use milk as required by being pumped from the fridge directly. It is a proper refrigerator and has a compressor and refrigerant inside. I am still looking at the temps it can achieve and with my very inaccurate thermometer I am getting it to around 5-6 deg Celsius (very low 40's in Fahrenheit) which will hopefully be sufficient..